Jean, Sonny & James Rafy

Sandy Hook, Gateway NRA, NPS
An Oral History Interview with
Mrs. Jean Rafy, Sonny Rafy and James Rafy, Wife and Children of
James Rafy Sr., Provost Marshall, U.S. Disciplinary Barracks
Interviewed by Elaine Harmon, NPS
December 19, 1987
Transcribed by Mary Rasa, 2011

Quarters 8, where the Rafy family lived at Fort Hancock.

Guard watchtower at U.S. Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Hancock.

Group photo of USDB Guard Company, 1046.

Photos courtesy of NPS/Gateway NRA

Editor’s notes in parenthesis ( )

Elaine Harmon: This is 1987 and I have the pleasure of introducing Mrs. Jean Rafy whose husband was James Rafy Senior, Provost Marshal of the Disciplinary Barracks and career military person who died in 1969. The date again is December 19, 1987. With Mrs. Rafy is her daughter Sonny Rafy who lives in Eatontown and her son James Rafy Jr., the second who lives in Summit, New Jersey (laughter). You have just walked through History House and now that you happened to be at one of our programs and again was sort of reminiscing about how History House, Building 1 compares to Quarters #8 that you lived at in 1947. So what was it like to be there? Tell me.

Jean Rafy: As soon as we walked in through the back door which we used all the time. It was too windy to use the front door.

Elaine Harmon: Right.

Jean Rafy: And I see a light with a light fixture and I says, “This is where Mr. Rose hung our dry cleaning up.” (laughter)

Elaine Harmon: Who was Mr. Rose by the way?

Jean Rafy: He took care of the dry cleaning here.

Elaine Harmon: And he delivered to your house?

Jean Rafy: Right. If we weren’t home that is where he hung it up, the dry cleaning.

Elaine Harmon: That’s great. And you didn’t lock your door?

Jean Rafy: No. Apparently not, if he got in.

Elaine Harmon: Isn’t that amazing.

Jean Rafy: Unless we locked the kitchen door. That I don’t remember. But anyway as I walked in I could see the kitchen the way it was. The stove looked a little different. I don’t know whether we had gas stove at the time but it appears to be electric. And then going to the pantry, then the dining room, the, my sewing room which was originally the lieutenant’s office.

Elaine Harmon: Oh, how interesting. So, that was your personal sewing room. Was there a bathroom on the first floor too?

Jean Rafy: As I remember, yes.

James Rafy Jr.: The one thing you didn’t mention was that there was a sink in the butler’s pantry. There was a sink where the decorations are.

Jean Rafy: Quarters 1 didn’t have one but I am sure we had it. It was not a regular sink. It was aluminum or copper. Remember Sonny?

Sonny Rafy: Yeah. Just for glasses.

Elaine Harmon: Just for glasses?

Sonny Rafy: Yeah. Just for glasses but you are in the butler’s pantry. That’s where the butler would wash glasses. Not in the sink where the dishes were.

Elaine Harmon: Did it appear to be original to the pantry or is it somebody else who before you installed the sink?

Sonny Rafy: No. I think it was built into the..

Elaine Harmon: That’s…I never heard that before.

Jean Rafy: Yeah. And let’s see naturally a fireplace in every room. Anyway, these Quarters 8 was the same as Quarters 1. To me, 1 seemed a little different than 8 the one that we lived in.

Sonny Rafy: We didn’t have the fireplace in the (inaudible). That was where it was blocked off.

James Rafy Jr.: That’s where (inaudible).

Elaine Harmon: That’s right. So, you had four fireplaces then out of five.

Jean Rafy: Yeah. We had them upstairs in the bedrooms.

Elaine Harmon: Right.

Jean Rafy: Anyway what was I gonna say. It seems to me we had a spiral staircase from the living room. Now, this one was stripped isn’t it? Yeah.

Elaine Harmon: Oh really? So there was a curving banister that was very different from the one in History House, my goodness.

Jean Rafy: Oh, it seemed so huge.

Elaine Harmon: So, there were two master bedrooms upstairs like History House.

James Rafy Jr.: Yeah. The upstairs was the same.

Jean Rafy: Yeah. There were four bedrooms up there. Lots of space.

Sonny Rafy: And the dresser built into one of the closets. The first bedroom off the stairway.

Elaine Harmon: Right. Now did you have the old fashioned cast iron tub on the second floor, that there is now on the third floor now in History House? Did you have the chicken ball foot?

Jean Rafy: The kind with the legs?

Elaine Harmon: Yes.

Jean Rafy: Oh yeah.

Elaine Harmon: Okay. Okay. Because there today is a very sort of modern rectangular 1950s bathtub in its place today. Now downstairs did you have like a laundry room? Did you have an actual laundry room?

Jean Rafy: The laundry room was in the cellar.

Elaine Harmon: Gigantic, isn’t it?

Jean Rafy: Very. Now you never worried about hanging clothes outside in the wintertime because you hung them up one day, the next day they were dry because there was a huge, huge furnace. And what did we have, two tubs down there?

Sonny Rafy: Yes.

Elaine Harmon: With a triple wash tub, right.

Jean Rafy: With a washboard. That’s when I was interrupted and was told to go. There was a lady in need, you know.

Elaine Harmon: Oh yeah.

Jean Rafy: Our neighbor was having a baby.

Elaine Harmon: Let me just finish the house and then we will go onto people.

Jean Rafy: Okay.

Elaine Harmon: The top floor was maid’s chamber.

Jean Rafy: Supposedly. Yeah they used to have what, the sergeant living up there? With his family and they would help take care of the house and whatever.

Elaine Harmon: You had another officer living there?

Jean Rafy: No, before us. Some people did have them.

Elaine Harmon: Did they rent it out or?

James Rafy Jr.: No. The enlisted man worked for the officer.

Elaine Harmon: I see. Oh really.

James Rafy Jr.: He lived on the third floor and his family lived up there and they were like the maids and butlers.

Jean Rafy: Yeah, they just helped to keep the place.

Elaine Harmon: Oh I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that the enlisted men actually had jobs on the Post that could even involve that. How interesting?

Jean Rafy: I don’t think they got paid and they didn’t pay any rent. It was just they lived there so they could help.

Elaine Harmon: It was in exchange. Right. You had nobody on the third floor. Is that right?

Jean Rafy: No. No. Really.

Elaine Harmon: Tell me about the ghost.

Jean Rafy: Really when we moved in the windows were loose and whatever and it was a windy day and we were scared to death but we went up there to you know to quiet things down.

James Rafy Jr.: We all went up together.

(inaudible. Everyone talking together)

James Rafy Jr.: Yeah I remember that. I was six years old. That’s right.

Jean Rafy: Well, that was because the wind howled and it was really spooky.

James Rafy Jr.: I don’t think there were any lights up there either. I think we had candles.

Sonny Rafy: No. There was one light in the hallway. None of the other fixtures.

Elaine Harmon: It’s very errie actually if you are in the house by yourself which I am occasionally.

Jean Rafy: Oh yeah.

Elaine Harmon: It is an errie feeling.

James Rafy Jr.: Didn’t we have the coal bin downstairs? Wasn’t there still coal?

Sonny Rafy: No, because that was where fluffy used to sleep.

James Rafy Jr.: But we had a big…

Jean Rafy: I don’t know what kind…how did we heat the house? Was it with coal? I don’t remember going in there.

James Rafy Jr.: No. I don’t remember. I remember it was pitch dark in there.

Jean Rafy: It must have been with oil.

James Rafy Jr.: I think there was like coal in there.

Sonny Rafy: Because Fluffy made her bed in there.

Elaine Harmon: Who is Fluffy prêt ell?

Son and daughter: My dog.

Elaine Harmon: Okay.

Sonny Rafy: And he was very white so had their been coal down there he would have been filthy and he wasn’t.

James Rafy Jr.: But we did have the big ball of tin foil. You know like every 1940s home had. It was down there. I remember it in the cellar. I remember that.

Jean Rafy: You mean from all the chocolate you ate. (laughter)

James Rafy Jr.: Yeah. I remember having the German measles in that house because we had to keep the lights down.

Jean Rafy: That’s right. That’s right. As we were coming towards the house I said to Sonny, “It seems to me that the front porch was enclosed,” because that’s where Sonny had her, what 10th birthday, 11th , 12th birthday.

James Rafy Jr.: It was screens.

Jean Rafy: See, alright.

James Rafy Jr.: It was screens.

Jean Rafy: He had the measles so the party had to be out on the porch. You know, kids weren’t allowed in the house.

James Rafy Jr.: Because we had quarantine signs then.

Elaine Harmon: Did you really?

James Rafy Jr.: That’s when it used to be quarantine. You weren’t allowed in there so the Post Doctor used to give us the quarantine signs. You had to put them on your door. This house is quarantined.

Elaine Harmon: Oh my gosh. I am sorry. What’s the color scheme that you remember? White tin ceiling, original tin ceilings.

Jean Rafy: Oh you mean as far as paint went?

Elaine Harmon: Yeah.

Jean Rafy: I think it was all one shade, one color.

Elaine Harmon: Everyone tells me it was all buff and white, like a beige.

Jean Rafy: Either white or what do they call that, light beige or off white or whatever.

Elaine Harmon: Right. And what was the floor covering. We are curious was it like tile, checkerboard tile?

Jean Rafy: I don’t think so.

Sonny Rafy: All wood.

Elaine Harmon: Oh, so it was oak. So, you had the original.

Jean Rafy: How about the kitchen?

Sonny Rafy: The kitchen had tile and linoleum. Not tile, tile like we have now. It was one sheet linoleum.

Jean Rafy: One color.

Elaine Harmon: Cut linoleum. How interesting.

Sonny Rafy: But the rest of the house all you had was throw rugs and braided rugs you need because it was all the original floors. It was all the original wood.

Jean Rafy: We didn’t have parquet.

Sonny Rafy: Not parquet. Wooden floors.

Jean Rafy: You know, when you are in the Army and you live in so many places it is hard to focus on one.

Elaine Harmon: Oh, I can imagine. 22 years, no less. Was the exterior trim the same color green that you see there?

Jean Rafy: Yes.

Elaine Harmon: And you see battleship grey porch steps.

Jean Rafy: Yes.

Elaine Harmon: Right. Were you allowed flowers in front of your house? A lot of people ask us was it typical?

Jean Rafy: I think just a few bushes planted and I don’t think anybody did anything. Maybe it was allowed or whatever the story I don’t remember. I had an azalea there or something like that. It wasn’t.

Sonny Rafy: I think it was just green.

Jean Rafy: Just bushes.

James Rafy Jr.: Where was the women’s club when you had that picture taken?

Jean Rafy: Ask me.

James Rafy Jr.: I mean did you go, where was it, where was the Officers’ Club?

Jean Rafy: Yeah. Probably in the Officers’ Club, yeah.

James Rafy Jr.: Where was that?

Jean Rafy: It was quite a distance down there somewhere.

Elaine Harmon: Exactly. You are right. Up the block and you are going from your Quarters #8 down to #1 there is a big black cannon. At the cannon, you make a right. About a half a block on a hill all set aside by itself is the Officers’ Club.

Jean Rafy: Is that closed off?

Elaine Harmon: Yes.

Jean Rafy: Yeah. I remember going with the bus.

James Rafy Jr.: You would take the post bus?

Elaine Harmon: Was there a shuttle bus on Fort Hancock?

Jean Rafy: No. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. No. I am talking about that snowed in New Year’s Eve.

James Rafy Jr.: That’s where the party was. You have a picture of that at home. It was a New Year’s Eve party. Dad is sitting with his pinks and greens and you are sitting looking at him. The picture was taken.

Jean Rafy: I don’t know if that was there or if that was where that little boy was lost. (inaudible) that was (inaudible).

Elaine Harmon: Okay, now who were your neighbors? Give me an idea.

Jean Rafy: Okay. On one side was Klein.

Sonny Rafy: That’s was 9, Quarters 9.

Jean Rafy: What was his first name, Raymond.

James Rafy Jr.: Raymond Klein.

Elaine Harmon: Good for your.

Jean Rafy: Ray and Betty Klein.

James Rafy Jr.: She still has the thank you letter.

Elaine Harmon: Okay and that’s the family you delivered a child during a blizzard.

Jean Rafy: Right. Yeah. They had two sons, oh what 8 and 9 or 7 and 9. One was Douglas, what was the other one?

Sonny Rafy: Ray Junior.

Jean Rafy: Ray Junior.

Elaine Harmon: And you delivered the little girl.

Jean Rafy: Yes. Sheri Lynn Klein.

James Rafy Jr.: During the blizzard that was in March.

Jean Rafy: No. No. December 27th. (inaudible)

James Rafy Jr.: The blizzard in ’47 was in March.

Jean Rafy: We had a big snow, whatever it was anyway. When we went to the club they were all teasing me about being a midwife and all that stuff.

Elaine Harmon: And so who lived in Quarters 10 on the other side of you?

Jean Rafy: No. That would be 9.

Elaine Harmon: Yes, who lived on the other side.

Sonny and James: 7.

Elaine Harmon: 7, Excuse me I am sorry.

Jean Rafy: I just can’t remember.

James Rafy Jr.: Belvin lived in 12. Colonel Belvin was the company, was the what you call it was the commanding officer. Belvin, we know, we can name names but I don’t know if we know the quarters. Like Gross, Major Gross.

Sonny Rafy: Captain Wright.

James Rafy Jr.: Wright. Ware was a lieutenant.

Sonny Rafy: Lt. Ware.

Jean Rafy: What was the name you just mentioned? One of the Jimmy’s, Harlor.

James Rafy Jr.: No. They lived here.

Jean Rafy: Captain Janskey. He’s passed away also.

James Rafy Jr.: She lives out in Pennsylvania, Enola, Pennsylvania. I think the other kids that I, I hung around four Jimmy’s. Four Jimmy’s hung around together. Jimmy Preston, Jimmy Simpson Jimmy Harlor, Jimmy Rafy. I think Jimmy Harlan and Jimmy Rafy’s were officer and Jimmy Preston and Simpson lived right over there in the enlisted. Their father’s were sergeant.

Elaine Harmon: Harlor was the name?

James Rafy Jr.: Harlor, H-A-R-L-O-R.

Elaine Harmon: And who was the…I have…

James Rafy Jr.: Simpson, Preston and myself. I think Simpson was the one, it must have been his grandfather (Civilian employee who worked at Sandy Hook for over 40 years, Johnny Simpson) who died. He was a couple of years older. You have the picture…

Elaine Harmon: Right in History House.

James Rafy Jr.: And you used to babysit for Gross, right?

Sonny Rafy: Maxine and I were the same age.

James Rafy Jr.: Maxine was the same age, that’s right.

Elaine Harmon: So your playmates were Maxine and…

Sonny Rafy: Maxine Gross and (inaudible) but they were teenagers.

James Rafy Jr.: You were what, 12 here?

Sonny Rafy: I celebrated my 12th birthday here when you had the measles.

James Rafy Jr.: So, do you remember some of the kids who were at the party.

Sonny Rafy: No, because I didn’t hang around with one of… most of the kids who came to my party were from Leonardo School.

Jean Rafy: Oh that’s right. Well, you went to school here.

James Rafy Jr.: Yeah.

Sonny Rafy: Well, he went to school here on Post.

James Rafy Jr.: Mrs. Flood was my teacher. That was Kindergarten.

Sonny Rafy: It went to 6th grade here. When you went to 7th grade you went to Leonardo.

James Rafy Jr.: You had your communion on Post right?

Sonny Rafy: Confirmation.

James Rafy Jr.: Confirmation, I am sorry.

Jean Rafy: Yeah we went to St. Agnes.

Sonny Rafy: No. We had our classes here in the Chapel. The nun would come from St. Agnes.

Jean Rafy: Were you catechism here or was it Jimmy?

Sonny Rafy: Jimmy was the communion and I was the confirmation. The nun would come here but we were confirmed at the church.

James Rafy Jr.: Was Father Cush the priest here?

Jean Rafy: No. That’s the father, who was the priest who baptized you?

Sonny Rafy: Who he chased around the church. (laughter)

James Rafy Jr.: They chased me around the church.

Elaine Harmon: That’s unusual isn’t it?

Jean Rafy: We were never one place long enough for him to be baptized. And they finally caught him when he was three and he refused to go to the priest.

James Rafy Jr.: I think the church was next to the school. The little white building was the chapel.

Elaine Harmon: That’s right.

James Rafy Jr.: I went to school right next door with Mrs. Flood. That was Kindergarten.

Elaine Harmon: And what was there for the children to do. I mean did you have a lot of playmates or was it very isolated?

James Rafy Jr.: We roamed the Post.

Sonny Rafy: That’s it. The Post was open.

James Rafy Jr.: We would go to the Fort and play. I mean they are finding bombs and everything.

Jean Rafy: Yeah, but we didn’t see it then.

James Rafy Jr.: Nobody knew of it then.

Jean Rafy: You know, what this little guy would do at 5:00 (pm)? He would always be home naturally for supper. He would stand on those steps there for retreat. Are those steps still there? Walk to the flag and stand there and salute.

Sonny Rafy: The cannon would go off at 5:00.

Elaine Harmon: For a fact?

Sonny Rafy: And he stood there for retreat, yeah.

Elaine Harmon: Did you have a Post Bugler, an actual bugler?

Sonny Rafy: No. It was a recording.

Elaine Harmon: Oh really?

Sonny Rafy: Yeah because it used to go off track every once in a while and at 6 in the morning you would hear this…

James Rafy Jr.: We would have reveille and we would have retreat and the cars would stop wherever you were.

Sonny Rafy: You would stop whatever you were doing.

Jean Rafy: It was such a nice site.

James Rafy Jr.: And you would hear (sound of music) and then you would here BOOM and the cannon would go off.

Jean Rafy: The military would get out of their cars and stand at attention and all.

Elaine Harmon: The cannon was fired once a day?

James Rafy Jr.: Twice a day. In the morning….

Sonny Rafy: Reveille and retreat.

Elaine Harmon: Is that right? What time?

Sonny Rafy: When the flag went up and when it came down. Reville was at 6:00 (am) because the first day we were here we didn’t know that cannon would go off. All four of us…(laughter inaudible talking)

Sonny and James: Because it was right outside our door.

Elaine Harmon: Oh sure. That’s right. It was right near the flagpole.

Sonny Rafy: We thought we were under attack.

Elaine Harmon: I can’t believe they had it tape recorded back then.

Sonny Rafy: It was tape recorded, not tape recorded, a recording. Tapes didn’t exist at that time.

James Rafy Jr.: A record with a loudspeaker.

Sonny Rafy: It was a loudspeaker and it would go off and you would here the shoo shoo. It’s the thing when the needle would start.

James Rafy Jr.: And then the flag would go up and at night they would fold the flag.

Elaine Harmon: What time was taps?

James Rafy Jr.: Well, it was usually 5:00 in summer and 4:00 when the time change.

Jean Rafy: In the winter with the time change.

James Rafy Jr.: So, it was still light.

Sonny Rafy: 4:00 and 5:00.

James Rafy Jr.: And everything would stop. All the cars would stop on the road. You had to stop and get out of the car.

Elaine Harmon: Is that true?

Sonny Rafy: Oh absolutely, to show respect for the flag.

James Rafy Jr.: So, if you were driving down the road and you heard that.

Jean Rafy: Civilians and military alike. It wasn’t just military. And ladies would get out in those days and put their hands over their hearts.

Elaine Harmon: No kidding. Did you have an automobile of your own? Did you family have a car?

Jean Rafy: Yes.

Elaine Harmon: And did you use the garage on the side of the house? There was a little attachment.

Jean Rafy: I don’t remember if there was just a driveway.

Sonny Rafy: No. We had a garage but I think he put it in there in the wintertime because the winds were so fierce but he usually in just the driveway.

Elaine Harmon: What was your impression first coming to Sandy Hook? Was it like no man’s land?

Sonny Rafy: Yes. That’s it. It seemed like it took forever from the Gate.

Jean Rafy: All those miles before you got in here.

Elaine Harmon: And where did you actually come from before you got here?

Jean Rafy: Fort Niagara.

Elaine Harmon: You arrived in September so that’s kind of nice time of year.

Jean Rafy: Yeah and when we arrived you know all of our possession were in route and no, you were like a man without a county without a home because you are leaving one place and don’t know where you are gonna live. The first place we stop was at the what, Quartermaster or wherever they assign.

Sonny Rafy: To get beds.

Jean Rafy: No. Where they assign the homes?

Elaine Harmon: Right. What exactly did the Army provide you with? I am curious. Were you provided with, the Quartermaster is usually issuing your uniform, but also dishes?

Jean Rafy: Yes.

Elaine Harmon: Did you have the white porcelain dishes?

Jean Rafy: In Germany, we had dishes.

Sonny Rafy: Yeah, but if your things were enroute and you were in quarters without anything they would let you use things.

Jean Rafy: And you know what else we got. Tin cups that you would use when you go camping, something like that. Well, that and GI pots.

James Rafy Jr.: Where was the Commissary here?

Sonny Rafy: Right here.

Elaine Harmon: The Commissary is up this street after Sergeants’ Row.

Jean Rafy: I remember walking home.

James Rafy Jr.: Oh, you had to walk to the Commissary.

Sonny Rafy: Yeah.

James Rafy Jr.: They didn’t have baskets did they? Did they have baskets?

Elaine Harmon: We had to have baskets. I mean how can you shop for a family.

James Rafy Jr.: Grocery shopping.

Jean Rafy: You had this basket and you had those baskets.

Elaine Harmon: Because I don’t think shopping carts were invented.

James Rafy Jr.: No.

Jean Rafy: Then how did we shop?

Sonny Rafy: You bought thing usually every day.

Jean Rafy: So, you had a few items and you bought them. Yeah

Elaine Harmon: Exactly. Were you issued furniture because we still have a lot of furniture here stamped on the back U.S. Army like the old bureaus? Do you remember mahogany bureaus?

Jean Rafy: While our stuff was enroute they would let you use what they had. They would give you the couches that they would use in the dayrooms of the companies.

James Rafy Jr.: We had a piano

Jean Rafy: That was our own.

James Rafy Jr.: Was that our own.

Sonny Rafy: Yeah.

James Rafy Jr.: Oh, I didn’t realize that.

Elaine Harmon: And how long were you camping out until your furniture arrived from Fort Niagara?

Jean Rafy: It was only a week or two.

Elaine Harmon: So, it was loaned until you got settled more or less?

Jean Rafy: All I remember getting here was dining room furniture.

Sonny Rafy: And cots because we didn’t have any beds.

Jean Rafy: ...some of the empty bedrooms upstairs.

Elaine Harmon: So, then you started school. It was September you began school both of you. Was it a strange…You were in Kindergarten and you were in

Sonny Rafy: 7th grade.

Elaine Harmon: Okay. So was it a strange feeling.

Sonny Rafy: No, because at the end when my Father retired, I had attended 24 schools and four of them were high schools.

Jean Rafy: So, there was nothing new.

Sonny Rafy: There was nothing new. I was always the new kid on the block. It was always the same sensation. You just got to know the kids when Daddy got orders again.

James Rafy Jr.: I only went to 13 schools and two high schools.

Elaine Harmon: (laughter) You have to be the most flexible people on earth.

Sonny Rafy: Well, we were together. We were always together. And so we never felt uncomfortable or like anything was wrong with us. Dad and Mom were always there. We were always a family.

Jean Rafy: It didn’t phase her. They both skipped grades.

James Rafy Jr.: No. I didn’t skip.

Jean Rafy: Yes, you did.

James Rafy Jr.: No.

Jean Rafy: Then Daddy must have said, “Don’t let him skip.” But Sonny skipped the 5th grade and you were supposed to unless they decided against it because the child does miss out on a lot, you know, when they skip a grade but every place we went the schools were more advanced. So, you know when you got to another school…

(inaudible talking.)

Elaine Harmon: Now did you walk to school? Right, okay.

Jean Rafy: Yeah.

Elaine Harmon: Along Officers’ Row. You must have blow away in the winter I bet.

James Rafy Jr.: Yeah.

Jean Rafy: There was a school bus for the kids wasn’t there?

James Rafy Jr.: No. I don’t remember a school bus.

Sonny Rafy: Not that I remember.

James Rafy Jr.: No. You just kind of get there.

Elaine Harmon: Mosey along.

Sonny Rafy: Because the other kids were walking too.

James Rafy Jr.: Yeah. We didn’t have street signs here either. There were no street signs where we lived. Our address was just Quarters 8 Fort Hancock. You know, we noticed the street signs. We didn’t have a name for our streets.

Elaine Harmon: We are curious to know when the Army did designate the names of the streets. We have no record.

Sonny Rafy: It was not in our time.

Elaine Harmon: No one knows why Magruder Road, why Kearny, why Kessler?

Sonny Rafy: Isn’t that in the Archive?

Elaine Harmon: Well, I don’t know. Our historian, he hasn’t tackled all the question yet. I don’t know but we were curious to know if there were street signs.

Sonny Rafy: No. There were no street signs. There was Officers’ Row, Enlisted Row, you know.

James Rafy Jr.: The other thing I remember is we would go all the way down by the Kindergarten there was a boardwalk. Well, not a boardwalk but a pier that was pretty active. People used to go fishing. Is that still in effect?

Elaine Harmon: That’s the Coast Guard, no.

James Rafy Jr.: I remember the pier out there.

Elaine Harmon: I had a question a second ago. What was it like to be growing up as, you know, military children. What did you feel like ping pong balls and all?

Sonny Rafy: No. See I never felt that way because we always, whenever we went anywhere we traveled as family. We traveled together. We were together whether it was in one motel room or hotel room or quarters. The only time we separated was when Dad was in Korea and we couldn’t go with him because it was still active at the time.

Jean Rafy: But of course you kids were older.

Sonny Rafy: But we were also older. The only thing that ever bothered me was that I was always the new kid on the block and as I say that didn’t bother me. It was the fact that I would just get to know the kids and we would get orders to go somewhere. But I loved it. I loved it. I don’t know of about Jimmy because Jimmy was five years younger than me. Was five years younger than me.

Jean Rafy: So he caught up with you. (laughter)

James Rafy Jr.: Being a male, I used to have to fight. I used to get picked on all the time. I used to have to fight.

Sonny Rafy: Because he was always the new kid.

James Rafy Jr.: Because I was always the new kid. They used to test me. But this was my favorite place of all the place we ever lived.

Sonny Rafy: Me too. Me too.

James Rafy Jr.: I probably have the best memories of here and Germany because we were in Germany right after here. But I remember going out with Mom to the water out there and putting a pole with a string on it and coming back the next day and it was gone. I was crushed. I couldn’t…

Jean Rafy: What were you…

James Rafy Jr.: Fishing. I couldn’t understand where it went. I didn’t know about tides then. I didn’t know about things like tides.

Jean Rafy: I remember one time I was making dinner. “Where’s Jimmy? Where’s Jimmy?” Jimmy is not to be had. I looked and I see him over the fence. Was there a fence at the time?

James Rafy Jr.: No.

Jean Rafy: It was wide open right?

James Rafy Jr.: Yeah.

Jean Rafy: Okay but further away past Quarters 8 and I see him there with all the birds and whatever and another kid and I figure, “Oh my god.” I was afraid they were going to go in the water. So, there I am cooking. I don’t know what I had on the stove. I didn’t stop to shut that off. I just ran to get Jimmy thinking he was you know.

Sonny Rafy: He was okay.

Jean Rafy: He was alright but my stuff burnt and there was a good thing there was snow on the ground or whatever. I just threw it out, you know.

Sonny Rafy: You know but being military kids being an Army brat, everything you did reflected on your Father.

Elaine Harmon: Yes. I was just going to ask you.
Sonny Rafy: And everything that was negative was put into his permanent record. So, that followed him all over. And ours was even more so because he was a military police officer, which was like a police chief.

Elaine Harmon: Right.

Sonny Rafy: And you kids had better be good. Like the chaplains kids had better be good.

Elaine Harmon: Right.

Sonny Rafy: So, we were always on our guard and anything we ever did because his MPs were all over the place he knew about it before we ever got caught. That was rough. But I was crazy about the traveling. I loved the traveling. As long as we were together. As long as the family was a family unit that was terrific. And we were very lucky that he, a lot of the kids I knew like Navy kids that were stationed here they didn’t see their father for months and months because he was aboard ships. So, I felt very lucky that my Dad was here.

Elaine Harmon: What was the rank system like? Did it discriminate against, you know, you didn’t socialize with the lower…

Sonny Rafy: Oh yeah.

Jean Rafy: Not very much.

Sonny Rafy: At my age they did. In fact, the colonel’s daughters didn’t associate with the lieutenant’s daughters.

Jean Rafy: Wait a minute. I remember that…

Sonny Rafy: It was always that. Always that. Always and you know that an officers’ kid did not fool around or associate with an enlisted people.

James Rafy Jr.: Well we had, I had a couple of them.

Sonny Rafy: Yeah. I know but what I am saying is that the usual.

Elaine Harmon: That’s right.

Sonny Rafy: Because this was such an isolated community I think we stuck together more than in other military posts we had been in.

James Rafy Jr.: Sergeant (inaudible) remember

Sonny Rafy: He wasn’t here.

Jean Rafy: No. He wasn’t here but when you said about the actions whatever. He was my husband’s sergeant for years. And he had, naturally I heard his name but I never met him. When I finally did it was as if I was Madame so and so, you know. His actions I mean it must have been a leftover from the earlier days when you don’t fraternize or whatever. You know.

Sonny Rafy: Dad was an enlisted man in the Army in the early ‘30s and an enlisted man would cross the street so not to walk next to an officer and his lady. They just did not do that. It was not permitted. Again when the Second World War came I mean everybody was…

(tape stops and restarts after telephone rings.)

Elaine Harmon: Do you remember going to the theater, you know?

Jean Rafy: Yeah.

Sonny Rafy: A lot of movies.

Elaine Harmon: Okay and how much was the movie back then?

Sonny Rafy: It was 10 cents.

Elaine Harmon: And was there a new movies I am told every day, every week?

Sonny Rafy: No, no, no. You got like a new film in twice a week it was. It played for two nights and then another one came in two nights later. That was Army policy though because no matter where we went that seemed to be.

Elaine Harmon: And you all went by yourselves I mean there was nothing like the whole family had to go to the movies you just walked off.

Jean Rafy: I don’t know.

Sonny Rafy: Dad was on duty a lot so he had to be at the (US)DB (Disciplinary Barracks) so we kind of did movies with Mom. It was seven o’clock.

Jean Rafy: For some reason I can’t remember being in the movie house.

Elaine Harmon: Were there other like planned activities where you had baseball certain days or?

Jean Rafy: No.

Elaine Harmon: Really?

James Rafy Jr.: We didn’t have anything like that. There was no such thing as Pop Warner or Little League. You just go out and play wherever there was a spot.

Jean Rafy: Kids just played.

Elaine Harmon: So, there were no organized activities.

Sonny Rafy: No. There was a lot of beach combing. Most of the kids went out to the beaches because of the shells and sea weed and animal life.

Elaine Harmon: Right.

Sonny Rafy: The younger ones it was perfect because of all the cement bunkers all around here.

Elaine Harmon: Didn’t you worry about them in a way because of like just the falling off of these tall bunkers and steps and stuff like that?

Sonny Rafy: She didn’t know. (laughter)

Jean Rafy: If you don’t know.

Elaine Harmon: No kidding.

Jean Rafy: No, before they left the house it was always you know.

Sonny Rafy: But as soon as we got out of …

Elaine Harmon: Little did she know. No kidding.

Jean Rafy: I should have tied ropes on their ankles or something.

Elaine Harmon: Yeah. Put a string on their toe or something. Follow them out.

Sonny Rafy: I really don’t think she was concerned. Mom was concerned about falling into the water or anything because for some reason she trusted us that we wouldn’t go near anything but I was on the beach a lot. I don’t know about Jim.

James Rafy Jr.: I don’t remember being on the beach a lot or that much. Well, I played down on the end but we could just play baseball, you know, on the Parade Ground, football, you know, of hide and seek, you know whatever.

Elaine Harmon: Did any of you get into trouble? You know do something really outrageous?

James Rafy Jr.: No.

Sonny Rafy: We didn’t dare because as I say that reflected on your father’s record and you didn’t dare do it.

Jean Rafy: They would get (inaudible) in a hurry.

Elaine Harmon: Do you know where the Disciplinary Barracks was located exactly? (The US Disciplinary Barracks was located at Camp Low, Horseshoe Cove from 1945 to 1950.)

Sonny Rafy: It was down the line but I can’t, I know it was past your school. It was far away from the area.

Elaine Harmon: North of Officers’ Row?

Sonny Rafy: Oh yeah. It was…

(tape cuts off and starts.)

Sonny Rafy: Sing Sing, it was a federal prison. When the War was over, they had an awful lot of GIs who had killed, who had raped, who had done things. Deserters, lot of deserters, robbers, muggers, well they didn’t call them muggers then. They used to attack people and rob them and beat them up. They spent time. They just weren’t in a guardhouse with a six month sentence. They were put in there for years sentenced as if they were civilian. There were so many that Fort Leavenworth couldn’t hold them all so they borrowed the annex from Sing Sing to put the military prisoners in. Dad was provost marshal up there. Now Sing Sing was becoming overflowing with their prisoners and they required that
space. They took the prisoners. They broke up the units and they put part of them from Green Haven, Brooklyn and brought them to Hancock and that’s when we were here. Now, if my memory serves me correctly it seems like there was a lot of space between quarters and where the (US)DB was. It was just nothing and they put these people in there and that’s where they were away from living.

Jean Rafy: Did we have escapes here?

Sonny Rafy: Yes we did. We had the one that hid in Quarters 10.

Elaine Harmon: Really?

Sonny Rafy: In the basement of Quarters 10.

Jean Rafy: I remember in Green Haven…

Elaine Harmon: You are kidding?

Jean Rafy: Yeah. Escapes and alerted. That is why to this day I close the door and I lock it. I don’t have to. I lock all the time.

Elaine Harmon: So how were you alerted? By telephone?

Jean Rafy: Well, you husband would call, you know, “Lock everything up. Watch the kids.” And all that stuff.

Sonny Rafy: Don’t let the kids out if somebody is loose.

James Rafy Jr.: Dad went to work with a .45.

Sonny Rafy: Always, always. Even when he wasn’t OD (Officer of the Day). But this individual escaped and there are all outside entrances to the basements to the quarters and he…

(Telephone rings and tape shuts off and restarts)

Elaine Harmon: Do you remain in touch with any of the people you knew here at Fort Hancock? Are you in touch with any of them?

James Rafy Jr.: No. No.

Elaine Harmon: Were there any outstanding personalities that you remember? Oh the quirks of this person or the eccentricities of another person or someone who was a real so called character? Was there anything that kind of stands out in your mind of oh, what an odd duck this one was? We are talking about personalities.

Jean Rafy: You know what I thought of, Colonel Ostrander. He was the, everybody saw him. They froze and he used to walk like this (stamp feet). He was the big deal of the Post here. Remember?

Elaine Harmon: Ostrom. OSTROM. Colonel Ostrom, yes.

Jean Rafy: Ostrum?

Elaine Harmon: I don’t know him but his name has come up several times in recording. I know him almost as if I had met him. He used to walk with a very rigid type of style?

Jean Rafy: That’s right. Ostrum. Yeah. Yeah.

James Rafy Jr.: And Gross. Major Gross was a comedian. He reminded you of Myron Cohen.

Elaine Harmon: Is that right?

Jean Rafy: Yeah.

James Rafy Jr.: He was bald headed and he had a funny accent. He used to put on…

Jean Rafy: And then we were stationed together in Germany. Wasn’t it?

James Rafy Jr.: That’s right.

Jean Rafy: We used to play cards.

Elaine Harmon: Really? Were there any like major scandals like someone ran off with someone’s wife or someone was an alcoholic?

Jean Rafy: If it was it was hush, hush. It wasn’t a big deal like they do now.

Sonny Rafy: Nothing was public.

Jean Rafy: I remember people getting a divorce or they weren’t getting along but there was no gossip. You just you know.

Sonny Rafy: No. I don’t remember anything major.

Elaine Harmon: Okay and you talked about the blizzard. What was that like? Well, okay you talked about the snow storm and you were sent next door to deliver a child.

Jean Rafy: Yeah.

Elaine Harmon: How high was the snow? I mean usually snow doesn’t accumulate much on Sandy Hook.

Sonny Rafy: We were not able to get on or off the Hook for a few days.

Elaine Harmon: Wow.

Jean Rafy: She had intentions of going to Fort Monmouth to have the baby but if you can’t get out of the house naturally you are going to have it at home.

Elaine Harmon: That is a major snow storm then.

Sonny Rafy: Yes. It was.

Jean Rafy: So, we had a doctor. I don’t remember his name, captain. We were lucky to get him and I assisted. I am not a nurse, nothing, just a friend and neighbor.

Elaine Harmon: My goodness its kind of a…

Jean Rafy: It’s an experience.

Elaine Harmon: Strange.

Sonny Rafy: But you were there before the doctor got there.

Jean Rafy: Right. Right. Right. Got her prepared. Got the things ready for the baby, (like) where we were going to put the baby and whatever.

Elaine Harmon: You mentioned a photo of the women in the Officers’ Club.

Jean Rafy: Yeah.

Elaine Harmon: Could you just describe that to me and who those people were?

Jean Rafy: Well, we were all standing in front of a table a group, the whole group. Now if I see the faces I may remember the names. But like some of the people we mentioned here.

James Rafy Jr.: Felden, Mrs. Felden, Mrs. Janskey

Jean Rafy: Mrs. Janskey. Don’t forget Mrs. Rafy, she was there.

Elaine Harmon: Mrs. Rafy was there and Mrs. Ware.

Jean Rafy: Yeah. Betty Ware.

Sonny Rafy: Rice.

James Rafy Jr.: Rice, Gross.

Elaine Harmon: Were you all dressed up, you know to the maximum?

Jean Rafy: Yeah. Oh yes.

Elaine Harmon: And looking very chic.

Jean Rafy: Oh yes, yes. I don’t know. Did we wear hats?

James Rafy Jr.: You didn’t have hats on you were wearing you know black dresses with ruffles and things like that.

Jean Rafy: Conservative but dressed up.

Elaine Harmon: What was the occasion? Tea?

James Rafy Jr.: Probably a tea.

Jean Rafy: It was tea. Now, I don’t think this was for a holiday or honoring somebody, you know, if somebody was leaving.

Elaine Harmon: Or welcoming somebody even. It could have been welcoming.

Jean Rafy: Right. But now in my old age I write dates and years and everything. This way when you look at something you say sure, you know. Years ago naturally you remember. You don’t write nothing and you forget even where it was.

Elaine Harmon: Do you recall the interior of the Officers’ Club? For example the portrait in History House originally stood the portrait of Winfield Scott Hancock stood in the Officers’ Club originally.

Jean Rafy: I don’t remember a thing about the Officers’ Club. All I remember is dancing there.

Elaine Harmon: Did you ever have any occasion to go in there?

James Rafy Jr.: (inaudible) I don’t remember any recollection of the Officers’ Club.

Elaine Harmon: Its one of our biggest mysteries is we have seen old newspaper clippings of people in the Officers’ Club and there were portraits all over the walls of famous, famous you know military people and we wondered where those portraits go. Because when Fort Hancock was transferred to the National Park Service in November of 1974 apparently a lot of things including the warming ovens and the portraits and the fancy dinner ware, the silverware all were graft.

Jean Rafy: You know this reminds me of something we had in Germany, yes.

Elaine Harmon: Right, a warming oven also.

Jean Rafy: Right when I was making bread I let it rise up in there.

Elaine Harmon: It’s a super idea actually.

James Rafy Jr.: Do you remember the inside of the Officers’ Club (to sister)?

Sonny Rafy: The inside of the Officers’ Club? No. I don’t think we were in there.

Jean Rafy: No. I don’t think we were in there too much.

Elaine Harmon: Did you have one of these in your house in Quarters 8?

Jean Rafy: Not that I remembered. I remember having it in Europe.

Sonny Rafy: We had that in Europe.

James Rafy Jr.: We had radiators but not.

Jean Rafy: Because that is how we had the heat.

Elaine Harmon: You left in June of ’48.

Jean Rafy: Right.

Elaine Harmon: So you spent approximately 10 months or so at Fort Hancock? Is that right?

James Rafy Jr.: We were going to leave anyway because (inaudible)…

Elaine Harmon: What was sort of like your feeling? Were you sorry to leave here? I mean what was it like back then?

Jean Rafy: Yeah. You know, we like the place and you hate to leave but you have no choice. Wherever your husband goes that’s where you go. That was orders.

James Rafy Jr.: We got orders to go to Germany so we were on the boat going to Germany.

Elaine Harmon: And how long did that voyage take you?

James Rafy Jr.: 8 days.

Jean Rafy: 10 days, 9 days.

James Rafy Jr.: 9 days.

Elaine Harmon: Wow.

James Rafy Jr.: On the (USAT General) Edwin D Patrick.

Jean Rafy: But there were ships that took…

Elaine Harmon: That was the name of the vessel?

James Rafy Jr.: Yeah. It was a Navy transport. We passed the Vance. The Vance took about three days longer than us so we passed them in mid ocean.

Jean Rafy: And they started before we did.

James Rafy Jr.: and we came back on the Alexander M. Patch.

Elaine Harmon: How long were you in Germany?

Jean Rafy: Three years.

Elaine Harmon: Really?

Jean Rafy: On my 9th birthday.

Elaine Harmon: I neglected to ask you, your Husband gave 22 years, can you give me the time frame from what year to when was his 22 years?

Jean Rafy: When he started in Panama. When he enlisted he went to Panama.

Elaine Harmon: What year was that?

James Rafy Jr.: ’32.

Jean Rafy: ‘Cause he came back when?

James Rafy Jr.: He was in the military. I mean he was first an enlisted man and then he came out and went to OCS (Officer Candidate School). He went back in.

Jean Rafy: Wait a minute I met him in ’34 and he spent three years there. That was his first experience with the Army.

James Rafy Jr.: In Panama.

Jean Rafy: Then he came back home. That’s where we met, got married. In ’41, this little guy was a year old when he enlisted and he wanted a different…

James Rafy Jr.: He went to OCS at Fort (inaudible). Then I was born in ’41.

Jean Rafy: So, we were at Fort (inaudible) for a short time. Niagara, we were there for at least two years. And it never seemed to interfere with the kids schooling.

Elaine Harmon: That’s amazing to me.

Jean Rafy: It really was. And it seemed like we never left in the middle of a semester, you know, and let’s see…

Elaine Harmon: Was it considered to be prestigious to be assigned to Fort Hancock? As people tell me it was sort of the cream of the crop that came to Fort Hancock. Is that you general impression?

Jean Rafy: I imagine so because you would think only the rich and famous have places where it is wide open with few people you would say, you know.

James Rafy Jr.: It was the nicest place we ever lived, military.

Elaine Harmon: Really?

James Rafy Jr.: Oh absolutely, that is why we remembered so much.

Jean Rafy: Oh and we had nice quarters.

James Rafy Jr.: We had nice quarters in a lot of places but nothing like this. This was like the best. And our Christmas tree was 12 foot.

Elaine Harmon: Is that right? Where did you put it?

James Rafy Jr.: In the hallway.

Jean Rafy: The foyer. You know, we had the high ceilings. What is this about 12 feet or more?

Elaine Harmon: I don’t think so.

Jean Rafy: No.

James Rafy Jr.: Well, whatever this height.

Elaine Harmon: Yeah.

Jean Rafy: That’s eight feet.

James Rafy Jr.: Whatever this height was this was the height of the tree.

Sonny Rafy: About 12 foot.

James Rafy Jr.: The tree was incredible.

Elaine Harmon: Did the Army have any traditional programs for Christmas? Did they do anything special?

Jean Rafy: Well, they would get holly, the kids and I were talking about it as we were driving in. We were looking. Where’s the holly? Well, we saw it. My daughter says that they didn’t pick it from here.

Elaine Harmon: We can’t.

Sonny Rafy: There was a 500 dollar fine.

Elaine Harmon: Is that true?

Jean Rafy: But it was picked for us and I don’t know if we went to get it if we wanted it or…

Elaine Harmon: Delivered to your…

Jean Rafy: I don’t know if they delivered it.

Sonny Rafy: Yeah. You had to go pick it up at a central point.

James Rafy Jr.: It seemed to me as a kid they had someone dressed up as Santa Claus that came…

Sonny Rafy: Came to each quarters.

James Rafy Jr.: Yeah. Gave you a little present.

Jean Rafy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Elaine Harmon: How nice. Did anyone go caroling?

Sonny Rafy: Yeah.

Elaine Harmon: Was there any community spirit is basically what I am saying?

Sonny Rafy: Well, the church people and the chapel, the Catholic groups went caroling. There wasn’t anything… I think they had the officers’ Christmas party for kids because we used to go to that at every officers’ club.

James Rafy Jr.: And the Halloween party.

Sonny Rafy: And the Halloween party and all the kids were dressed up.

James Rafy Jr.: And we had a picture of that too. I was a pirate.

Elaine Harmon: Oh my goodness. You even remember that. That is fantastic.

Jean Rafy: You won a prize.

Sonny Rafy: I went as (inaudible).

James Rafy Jr.: Because the movie was out.

Sonny Rafy: And my outfit was made all out of crepe paper.

Jean Rafy: Out of crepe paper, can you imagine, wasn’t that dangerous if somebody got near her with a cigarette.

Elaine Harmon: I guess people didn’t think of that in those days.

James: She was only 12 and she was smoking then. I am surprised she didn’t burn. (laughter)

Sonny Rafy: No. I didn’t start until we were in Germany and I was 15.

Elaine Harmon: Did you have an Easter egg hunt?

Sonny Rafy: They might have for the young ones but we were a little, I think Jimmy was a little older than most of the kids.

Elaine Harmon: Did you associate much with the Coast Guard?

Sonny Rafy: No.

Elaine Harmon: Were they off limits?

Sonny Rafy: They were so far down and away from us.

Jean Rafy: They were a separate unit, right.

Sonny Rafy: Yeah.

Elaine Harmon: And how about the civilians? Were the civilians also a different mentality that you really didn’t socialize that much with civilians?

James Rafy Jr.: No, because they didn’t work here and the kids weren’t here and they lived, I don’t think we had civilians.

Sonny Rafy: Well, we had nurses and we had people working in the Commissary and things like that but they just came to work and left. There wasn’t any socializing. There might have been but not that I was aware of.

Elaine Harmon: Was the Commissary a complete store? I mean you actually found everything you pretty much needed?

Jean Rafy: I guess so. I must have been…

Sonny Rafy: No, because we used to do our heavy duty shopping at Fort Monmouth. We used to go right down Ocean Avenue. We went to Fort Monmouth. We used to stop at Mario’s or Freddie’s for pizza on the way back.

Elaine Harmon: You have a very vivid memory. Good heavens how funny. (laughter)

Sonny Rafy: They had the basics here but anything, a lot of things…

Elaine Harmon: Was the bakery in operation?

Jean Rafy: Not here. There was a bakery here?

Elaine Harmon: Oh absolutely. I am told it had the most heavenly bread.

Jean Rafy: No.

Elaine Harmon: Probably much prior to your time.

Jean Rafy: We had civilian stores for some of the shopping but I remember going every day or every other day. I didn’t drive at the time and as you said you don’t think they had carts. I still would like to know how we shopped unless we picked something up and put it on the counter.

Sonny Rafy: That was about it.

Elaine Harmon: It probably was so often also that you got your daily needs here and there and that was it.

Jean Rafy: Yeah. Yeah.

James Rafy Jr.: We have to wrap it up here because we have to leave.

END OF INTERVIEW