Dr. Henry and Nancy Kissinger Oral History Interviews

Bess W. Truman with the Kissingers

NPS

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEWS
WITH
DR. HENRY KISSINGER

MAY 7, 1992
ORAL HISTORY #1992-3

AND
NANCY KISSINGER

JUNE 25, 1992

ORAL HISTORY #1992-4
INTERVIEWED BY JIM WILLIAMS

HARRY S TRUMAN NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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EDITORIAL NOTICE

These are transcripts of tape-recorded interviews conducted for Harry S Truman National Historic Site. After a draft of this transcript was made, the park provided a copy to the interviewee and requested that he or she return the transcript with any corrections or modifications that he or she wished to be included in the final transcript. The interviewer, or in some cases another qualified staff member, also reviewed the draft and compared it to the tape recordings. The corrections and other changes suggested by the interviewee and interviewer have been incorporated into this final transcript. The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition. The transcript includes bracketed notices at the end of one tape and the beginning of the next so that, if desired, the reader can find a section of tape more easily by using this transcript.
Dr. Henry Kissinger and Jim Williams reviewed the draft of his transcript. Jim Williams reviewed the draft of Mrs. Kissinger’s transcript. Their corrections were incorporated into this final transcript by Perky Beisel in summer 2001. A grant from Eastern National Park and Monument Association funded the transcription and final editing of this interview.

RESTRICTION

Researchers may read, quote from, cite, and photocopy this transcript without permission for purposes of research only. Publication is prohibited, however, without permission from the Superintendent, Harry S Truman National Historic Site.
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ABSTRACTS

Dr. Henry Kissinger describes his only meeting with Harry S Truman at the Truman Library in 1961, while Kissinger was a consultant to President John F. Kennedy. Subsequently as secretary of state in 1975, Kissinger and his wife Nancy Kissinger visited Bess W. Truman in her home in Independence. Kissinger recalls his visit with Bess Truman and ends the interview with a favorable assessment of both Trumans.
Persons mentioned: Bess W. Truman, Harry S Truman, John F. Kennedy, Stuart Symington, and Margaret Truman Daniel.
Nancy Kissinger joined her husband in 1975 on a trip to Independence, Missouri, that included a visit to Bess W. Truman in the Truman home. Kissinger describes what she recalls of the visit, including Mrs. Truman’s concerns about growing older and being able to stay in her home. Kissinger contrasts Truman with other first ladies and mentions her respect for Truman as a first lady. The interview concludes with a discussion of Margaret Truman Daniel’s writing career and Kissinger’s sister-in-law’s relationship with the National Park Service at Adams National Historic Site.

Persons mentioned: Bess W. Truman, Margaret Truman Daniel, Harry S Truman, Henry A. Kissinger, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Tyler, Betty Ford, Gerald R. Ford, Eleanor Roosevelt, Mildred Frances Bartlett Cosimini, Diana Cosimini Maginnes, and Esther E. Bartlett.

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH
DR. HENRY KISSINGER

HSTR INTERVIEW #1992-3

[Recording of telephone call, Independence, Missouri, to New York, New York.]

DR. HENRY KISSINGER: Hello?
JIM WILLIAMS: Dr. Kissinger?
KISSINGER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: This is Jim Williams from the Truman home.
KISSINGER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Thank you for agreeing to talk to me today about your visit with Mrs. Truman in 1975.
KISSINGER: Right.
WILLIAMS: First of all, I need to get your permission to record the phone call.
KISSINGER: Okay.
WILLIAMS: That’s fine? Okay. Before we talk about your visit with Mrs. Truman, I was wondering if you had ever met President Truman?
KISSINGER: Oh, yes.
WILLIAMS: When was that?
KISSINGER: That was in the first few weeks of the Kennedy administration, when I gave a speech in Kansas City that [Stuart] Symington had arranged, and so I called on President Truman at the library.
WILLIAMS: I see, and did he show you around the library?
KISSINGER: Yes.
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WILLIAMS: Is that the only time you met him?
KISSINGER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: What is your opinion of him as a leader?
KISSINGER: I think he’s a great president.
WILLIAMS: Do you remember anything in particular as you were going through the library, anything, any stories?
KISSINGER: Is this recorded, or for what . . . What are you going to do with this?
WILLIAMS: Well, it’s for our . . .
KISSINGER: Oral history?
WILLIAMS: Right, of the Truman home, and we also share information with the Truman Library.
KISSINGER: So it’s not going to be broadcast?
WILLIAMS: No, no.
KISSINGER: No, because then I can use his precise language.
WILLIAMS: Okay.
KISSINGER: I was working for Kennedy in those days, and he said what I had learned from Kennedy, and I said, “I’ve learned that the president can’t do everything he wants because the bureaucracy is the fourth branch of government.” And he said, “Bullshit.” [chuckling] I hadn’t heard a president use that language. I hadn’t met many presidents, so . . . [chuckling] But he was very impressive.
WILLIAMS: What were you doing for President Kennedy?
KISSINGER: I was a consultant.
WILLIAMS: I see. Did Mr. Truman express any opinion about President Kennedy? I
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understand during the campaign he . . . it wasn’t his first choice.
KISSINGER: No, he didn’t think much of him. He thought that he . . . He said, “The trouble with Kennedy is he has too many opinions. A president has to know what he wants to do.”
WILLIAMS: I see. Mr. Truman had pretty definite opinions about presidential leadership and the separation—
KISSINGER: Well, I was very moved. I asked Truman what he was most proud of as president, or what he thought was his greatest accomplishment, and he said that, “After totally defeating our enemies, we brought them back to the community of nations.” He said, “Only Americans could have done that.”
WILLIAMS: Had you ever met Mrs. Truman before your visit?
KISSINGER: No.
WILLIAMS: And what was the reason for your visit to Independence in ’75?
KISSINGER: I think I was in Kansas City giving a speech, and so I called on Mrs. Truman. I was a great admirer of . . . I was a great admirer of Truman, so I called on Mrs. Truman.
WILLIAMS: You received the first Harry S. Truman Public Service Award, I believe, in ’74.
KISSINGER: Yes, I think that’s right.
WILLIAMS: But that wasn’t the reason you were in town?
KISSINGER: I don’t think so.
WILLIAMS: Visiting the library. Do you recall how you arranged the visit with Mrs. Truman?
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KISSINGER: I think I called her daughter.
WILLIAMS: Margaret?
KISSINGER: Yes, but I’m not sure about that. Or we might have called her directly.
WILLIAMS: I see. And Mrs. Kissinger was with you, is that right?
KISSINGER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: What do you recall about your visit with Mrs. Truman?
KISSINGER: Well, we were in her living room. She didn’t show us around the house. As I remember, just as you came in it was over to the side or you went right into it. And she told me how much it meant to her to live in Independence and that she intended to live there the rest of her life, and it was mostly chitchat.
WILLIAMS: Did you talk politics at all?
KISSINGER: No.
WILLIAMS: Did she seem to be interested in the world situation, anything that you were doing as secretary of state?
KISSINGER: Yeah. I mean, she asked me questions about my travels and so forth. It was a very warm and friendly meeting, and she was in very good intellectual shape.
WILLIAMS: I see. Was there anyone else there besides you and Mrs. Kissinger and Mrs. Truman?
KISSINGER: Only my wife.
WILLIAMS: Did you notice the Secret Service being around at all protecting her?
KISSINGER: I didn’t notice them. I’m sure they must have been, but . . .
WILLIAMS: And the visit was in the room, you said, to the right, the living room?
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KISSINGER: Well, yeah, it was downstairs in the living room.
WILLIAMS: Was that the room with President Truman’s portrait? Do you remember that?
KISSINGER: I’ll tell you the truth, I don’t remember it.
WILLIAMS: I see. Do you remember anything else about the conversation? Any specific topics?
KISSINGER: Well, only that she was a little worried that as she got older they might want her to move into a home or something like that.
WILLIAMS: Oh, but she thought—
KISSINGER: But she had no evidence of this whatsoever.
WILLIAMS: But she definitely wanted to stay in her home?
KISSINGER: Absolutely.
WILLIAMS: Did she serve you refreshments?
KISSINGER: Yes, but I don’t remember what they were.
WILLIAMS: Did she do that herself, or do you remember a servant?
KISSINGER: I seem to remember she did it herself. I don’t remember that there was any help there.
KISSINGER: I see. Do you have any impressions of the house itself as being presidential or not, or just your general impression of the home?
KISSINGER: I thought it was just sort of a typical middle-class Midwestern home.
WILLIAMS: Did that surprise you at all?
KISSINGER: Well, not if I had thought about it, but, you know, you read about presidents and you think it’s a little more elaborate.
WILLIAMS: You’ve known several presidents, I guess.
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KISSINGER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And have probably been in other presidential homes. Are you able to compare—
KISSINGER: Well, this was simpler than anyone else’s. Well, Carter’s was pretty simple.
WILLIAMS: About how long were you there visiting?
KISSINGER: An hour, hour and a half. I’ll tell you, in those days I seem to remember there was an article . . . was it in the New York magazine? Now I’ve forgot who wrote it, but there was some article about my visit there which showed . . . by a journalist who was tracking me at the time.
WILLIAMS: Oh, okay, I’ll have to look for that.
KISSINGER: And he was using it just as an example of a Republican secretary of state, you know, paying attention to the wife of a Democratic president, which was not my . . . You know, I wasn’t getting anything spectacular out of it. On my side, the motive was that I had not . . . that I really think President Truman was one of our outstanding presidents, which I’m also writing in a book that I’m doing now.
WILLIAMS: Okay. And you said earlier that she really didn’t show you around the house, other than into the room where you visited. Is that right?
KISSINGER: Yes. I’ll tell you, I must return another call in about two minutes.
WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, I think I’ve just about finished my questions.
KISSINGER: Okay?
WILLIAMS: Do you just have any final comments about the Trumans and the home, whether it should be protected?
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KISSINGER: Well, certainly it should be protected. I think that President Truman and Mrs. Truman, they were the best type of Americans, who usually come from small towns and believe in their country.
WILLIAMS: That’s great. Thank you very much.
KISSINGER: Right.
WILLIAMS: Goodbye.
END OF INTERVIEW

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH
NANCY KISSINGER

HSTR INTERVIEW #1992-4

[Recording of telephone call, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, to the Connecticut home of the Kissingers.]
MRS. NANCY KISSINGER: Hello?
JIM WILLIAMS: May I speak to Mrs. Kissinger?
KISSINGER: Speaking.
WILLIAMS: My name is Jim Williams. I’m from the National Park Service.
KISSINGER: Hi, how are you? You wanted to know about Mrs. Truman.
WILLIAMS: Yes, that’s right.
KISSINGER: And I can hardly remember anything she said, other than, you know, she was a very impressive lady.
WILLIAMS: May I record this phone call, first of all?
KISSINGER: Oh, sure.
WILLIAMS: Thank you. Did you have any contact with the Truman family before your visit?
KISSINGER: No, I never had. I had met Margaret Truman, you know, at a few social occasions, but even that, not many.
WILLIAMS: I see. Did you have any impression of President Truman before you visited Independence?
KISSINGER: Well, favorable, of course. You know, he was a strong man.
WILLIAMS: And what about Mrs. Truman? Did you know anything about her?
KISSINGER: I didn’t know anything about her personally, but I always admired her,
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because I think public life is very hard—it’s become even more difficult—but she always handled it very well. With intelligence.
WILLIAMS: With intelligence?
KISSINGER: With intelligence and class, both, you know.
WILLIAMS: Was there a particular reason for your visit in 1975?
KISSINGER: No, really. Honestly, just to see . . . as far as I can remember, to see the [Truman] Library and to kind of pay tribute to the man and the family and Mrs. Truman. They certainly deserve it.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Do you recall who made the arrangements to visit?
KISSINGER: Absolutely not.
WILLIAMS: Do you recall what sort of security there was, yours or Mrs. Truman’s?
KISSINGER: Certainly. Was my husband still secretary of state then, in ’75?
WILLIAMS: I believe so.
KISSINGER: So there would be his security, and I know Mrs. Truman had security people also.
WILLIAMS: Did you really notice them while you were visiting?
KISSINGER: You mean, were they standing there with guns pointing on anyone? No. But, you know, you become totally immune to security, I’ve decided, after six months. For the first three months it drives you crazy, and then after all, you know, they’re invisible in a way. Because in order to protect your own sense of privacy, I guess your mind pretends they’re not there, so I’m very bad at noticing that type of thing. But we had it in our house and everything, you know. It just becomes part of the landscape.
WILLIAMS: But you don’t recall them in particular being around at the Truman home?
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KISSINGER: No, I don’t. My husband has a better memory than I do, and he might.
WILLIAMS: Do you recall entering the house?
KISSINGER: Yes, up the front stairs, the porch, yeah.
WILLIAMS: Did Mrs. Truman greet you?
KISSINGER: She came down. I know she was . . . because I looked at the staircase. Because having an older mother that had broken her hip, I always look at staircases. I saw the staircase. But she was there, as I believe, there is a room on your left when you go in the front door. About ten or twelve feet on, there’s a room on your left.
WILLIAMS: Yes?
KISSINGER: And that is where we were. Now, whether she was . . . I think she was probably there when we came in. She may have come to the door, I don’t know.
WILLIAMS: Now, there are two rooms. There’s one on the right and there’s one on the left.
KISSINGER: It was on the left.
WILLIAMS: Okay. The one on the left has a baby grand piano in it.
KISSINGER: That I don’t remember.
WILLIAMS: Okay. Do you recall, first of all, did she show you around the house? Or did you just sit in that one room?
KISSINGER: I think we just sat and talked. But again, I would check. My husband really has a much better memory.
WILLIAMS: Do you recall anything in particular about the furnishings?
KISSINGER: No.
WILLIAMS: The portraits of the family?
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KISSINGER: No.
WILLIAMS: Nothing like that?
KISSINGER: No.
WILLIAMS: What was your general impression of the house? Did it seem fit for a president to live in?
KISSINGER: Well, our presidents on the whole, outside of Washington and Jefferson . . . and even, you know, Mount Vernon isn’t grand, in the sense that it’s a grand house. You know what I mean?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
KISSINGER: Tyler had a bigger house. Actually, you know, in the twentieth century, I guess Hyde Park is the only thing that’s kind of grand. But I don’t think presidents need particularly, you know, grand houses. It was his house.
WILLIAMS: So it didn’t surprise you at all with its plainness or . . . ?
KISSINGER: No. No, I didn’t think it was . . . As I remember, it’s a Victorian house.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
KISSINGER: And it was a charming, American Victorian house, just exactly what . . . you know, very, very lovely.
WILLIAMS: Did Mrs. Truman give you any refreshments, that you recall?
KISSINGER: She must have. I think that’s just so normal.
WILLIAMS: [chuckling] Well, probably, but we’re always curious as to what she served.
KISSINGER: If she served anything, I’m sure it would be tea or something like that, you know.
WILLIAMS: What did you talk about with her?
KISSINGER: Well, I think, you know, we talked about the library and how attractive it
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was, and probably about her husband, and then she talked about the problems of getting older—slightly, not much—but all older people do that. I don’t know whether you have an older mother or an older father.
WILLIAMS: A grandmother now.
KISSINGER: They get a little anxious as they get older. But I find in my fifties now that I get more anxious. It’s part of the aging process, no matter what anyone says.
WILLIAMS: What in particular was she worried about?
KISSINGER: Oh, I think she was just worried, you know, that she was going to remain healthy and be able to stay in her home, which is what every older person worries about.
WILLIAMS: Of course, she was ninety years old at the time, so . . .
KISSINGER: Yeah. Well, listen, my mother-in-law is ninety-two, and my mother was ninety-four, and they all run around and they’re healthy as they can be.
WILLIAMS: Did you talk politics?
KISSINGER: I don’t remember. I can’t imagine that we would particularly, other than maybe in historical terms, but not in modern terms. And again, ask my husband, because his memory on that is much better.
WILLIAMS: And you did say that you mentioned President Truman?
KISSINGER: I’m sure, yes. I mean, because we’d just been to the library. It would have almost been impossible to go to his library, enter his house, and talk to his widow without saying how much we admired him.
WILLIAMS: But she didn’t really talk too much about him?
KISSINGER: That I remember. You know, I really . . . you could get me on perjury. I don’t know.
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WILLIAMS: [chuckling] Well . . .
KISSINGER: That’s what I said to Jody. I’m useless. I took no notes.
WILLIAMS: Well, I wouldn’t expect you to take notes.
KISSINGER: [unintelligible—Henry’s something] always takes notes. He should have been with us.
WILLIAMS: Did you mention the Fords at all? I think that the Trumans and the Fords were fairly good friends.
KISSINGER: I don’t know. You’ll really have to ask my husband. I don’t remember.
WILLIAMS: Okay. How did Mrs. Truman appear that day, her health and her general appearance?
KISSINGER: Just fine. You know, she wasn’t fifty, but I thought she was fine.
WILLIAMS: And did she seem up on what was going on?
KISSINGER: Oh, yeah. No, she was mentally fine.
WILLIAMS: And with the world situation, the national . . .
KISSINGER: Yes. No, I mean, there was nothing wrong with her brain at all. I think she had a cane, but I think nothing wrong with her brain.
WILLIAMS: Do you recall how long you stayed?
KISSINGER: Not too long. At most, I would say half an hour, and probably less, a little less than that. It was definitely, you know, a courtesy call, and she, you know, was probably doing her own thing. I would say half an hour. Did you talk to my husband, because he really is—
WILLIAMS: Yes, I talked to him about a month ago.
KISSINGER: Yes, he’s much better at remembering things.
WILLIAMS: He remembered a few other things, but . . .
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KISSINGER: I’m sure.
WILLIAMS: But not a whole lot. And I don’t really expect people to remember a great deal, you know, seventeen years later. Is there anything, a really vivid memory, or when you heard that I was interested in talking to you . . .?
KISSINGER: No, I really racked my brain, and I just thought, no, it was a visit to pay tribute to her, to her husband, to see the library, and, you know, it was just very nice and warm, with a certain formality.
WILLIAMS: Are you able to compare Mrs. Truman to other first ladies that you’ve known?
KISSINGER: Well, you know, I think she’s in that same genre of . . . in terms not of political activity but in terms of sort of intelligence and common sense and all of this, as someone like Mrs. Roosevelt. I mean, Mrs. Roosevelt did her column and all of this and was much more active politically, but in a way they were the same type, you know. I would think they would have been very comfortable with each other. Now it’ll probably turn out they weren’t, but I would have thought they would have at least understood each other very well.
WILLIAMS: But they are often contrasted, though . . .
KISSINGER: Yes, in the outward extension of themselves certainly, but I think internally there is a good deal in common.
WILLIAMS: Was that, do you think, part of them being the same generation?
KISSINGER: It’s partly being the same generation, partly having been in politics literally all their married lives, I think, having made a decision on what role they wanted to play—Mrs. Roosevelt more active, Mrs. Truman perhaps less active. You see what I mean?
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WILLIAMS: Yes.
KISSINGER: But they had decided all this and were very much, both of them I think, at peace with themselves.
WILLIAMS: Well, did you have any contact with Mrs. Truman after your visit?
KISSINGER: No, we did not, unfortunately.
WILLIAMS: So this was the one and only experience.
KISSINGER: The only occasion.
WILLIAMS: And do you still see Margaret Truman at all?
KISSINGER: No, she’s in Washington and I’m up here in Connecticut. [chuckling] But I buy her books.
WILLIAMS: Well, I’m sure she’s happy about that. I saw the new mystery in the bookstore the other day.
KISSINGER: I think every author . . . I don’t know, I think every author likes to have his books noticed.
WILLIAMS: I forget which . . . where the murder is this time, but . . . [chuckling]
KISSINGER: That I don’t know, but I’ll let you know in a month or so. [chuckling]
WILLIAMS: Well, thank you very much for talking to me.
KISSINGER: Okay. Well, I enjoyed it. This is an oral history project, huh?
WILLIAMS: Yes, for the Truman home.
KISSINGER: I think it’s really fantastic. I hope they do a lot of them on other figures.
WILLIAMS: Well, we’re trying to get as many as we can. And unfortunately, many of the people have died already, but we’re trying, and I appreciate your cooperation.
KISSINGER: You aren’t connected to the Columbia one, the university?
WILLIAMS: No, this is the federal government, the National Park Service.
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KISSINGER: You have my sister-in-law’s house now. I think it’s you. It’s the Department of the Interior, I guess, that has it.
WILLIAMS: Yes, that’s the National Park Service. Who is your sister-in-law?
KISSINGER: The Bartletts, but her married name was [Mildred Frances Bartlett] Cosimini, and it’s right next to the Adams house in Quincy.
WILLIAMS: Oh, so it would be part of Adams National Historic Site?
KISSINGER: It’s divine. I don’t know what they’re going to do with it. They’re redoing it. They’re redoing it and they’re going to open it next year, I guess, and put it on a tour.
WILLIAMS: So is it an old colonial house?
KISSINGER: Oh, yeah, it’s an eighteenth-century house. I guess it was built in the early . . . with the widow’s walk, you know, and all that. It’s a divine house. I loved it. I always wish she’d kept it.
WILLIAMS: Well, I’m going to be in Boston next month. Maybe I’ll . . .
KISSINGER: Go take a look. It’s right next to the Adams house.
WILLIAMS: And it’s the Divine house?
KISSINGER: No, Cosimini was on the . . . It was probably in the name of Esther Bartlett, who was the aunt, and Diana’s mother, who was Mrs. Cosimini.
WILLIAMS: Okay.
KISSINGER: And it has a lovely carriage house, which they really should rent out to somebody, or if they have a caretaker there . . . Anyway, it’s a pretty place but needs a lot of work.
WILLIAMS: Well, I’ll look for it.
KISSINGER: Okay.
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WILLIAMS: Well, thank you very much.
KISSINGER: All right.
WILLIAMS: Goodbye.
END OF INTERVIEW

Photograph of Bess W. Truman with Nancy and Henry Kissinger at the front door of the Truman home, with unidentified security agent (courtesy the Harry S. Truman Library, photo 86-28)

NPS

Newspaper article about the Kissingers’ visit to the Truman home (Harry S. Truman Library vertical file)

Kansas City Star, no date

“Kissinger Is Given Midwest Support,” New York Times, May 18, 1975, p. 11.

New York Times