C.E. Anderson Oral History Interview

No photograph available.

NPS

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
WITH
C. E. ANDERSON

JUNE 20, 1983
INDEPENDENCE, MISSOURI
INTERVIEWED BY RON COCKRELL
ORAL HISTORY #1983-3

This transcript corresponds to audiotapes DAV-AR #4057-4060
HARRY S TRUMAN NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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EDITORIAL NOTICE

This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for Harry S Truman National Historic Site. After a draft of this transcript was made, the park provided a copy to the interviewee and requested that he or she return the transcript with any corrections or modifications that he or she wished to be included in the final transcript. The interviewer, or in some cases another qualified staff member, also reviewed the draft and compared it to the tape recordings. The corrections and other changes suggested by the interviewee and interviewer have been incorporated into this final transcript. The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition. The transcript includes bracketed notices at the end of one tape and the beginning of the next so that, if desired, the reader can find a section of tape more easily by using this transcript. C. E. Anderson and Jim Williams reviewed the draft of this transcript. Their corrections were incorporated into this final transcript by Perky Beisel in summer 2000. A grant from Eastern National Park and Monument Association funded the transcription and final editing of this interview.

RESTRICTION

Researchers may read, quote from, cite, and photocopy this transcript without permission for purposes of research only. Publication is prohibited, however, without permission from the Superintendent, Harry S Truman National Historic Site. 3

ABSTRACT

C. E. Anderson, a building contractor from Independence, Missouri, performed remodeling services at 219 N. Delaware Street a year after the Trumans returned from the White House in 1953. Anderson provides little information about his personal background but offers numerous stories about his renovation projects at the Truman home, including work in the study, the basement, and the attic. Of particular interest is Anderson’s recollection of remodeling the Truman’s attic to prepare it for the many artifacts they accumulated during the presidential years. During that project he noticed evidence suggesting that a fire had at one time occurred in the attic. Persons mentioned: George Ultch, Robert Nichols, Bob Saunders, Thomas P. Richter, Calvin Morgan, Mary Jane Truman, Harry S Truman, Bess W. Truman, James W. Symington, Bill Randall, Tom Pendergast, Harvey Jones.

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH C. E. ANDERSON

HSTR INTERVIEW #1983-3
MICHAEL SHAVER: This interview of C. E. Anderson, a building contractor from
Independence, Missouri, was conducted by Ron Cockrell, historian
of the Midwest Regional Office of the National Park Service in
Omaha, Nebraska, for the Harry S Truman National Historic Site.
This interview took place on June 20, 1983.
C. E. ANDERSON: This drawing and this agreement [see appendix, item 1] is where I
furnished material and labor to build bookshelves as shown on the
accompanying drawing, excluding only the electrical and heating
work, for the total sum of $505.56. And a peculiar thing, and I don't
know if you'll want these asides or not, but to get the books on this
kind of a span . . . See, oh, approximately thirty-two to thirty-four
inches in here, and loading them with books—they wanted them
made out of pine—I needed to have vertical grain pine. At that time,
George Ultch Lumber Company was down where Diamond
International is, and they imported a train carload of clear white
pine, and we sorted out the material in a carload of pine to make
these shelves. “I'll take this one . . .” As they were unloading it,
why then, we just put a truck alongside for the selected boards, and
Mr. Truman came down and thanked Mr. George Ultch and the crew
for letting me have that opportunity. And that made more of a
difference than you'd think, but these are vertical grain so that they'll
carry the heavy load of books and records. Now they're painted, but
then that's immaterial.
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RON COCKRELL: Oh, so you didn't do the actual painting of the bookshelves then once
they were up? You just did the carpentry work?
ANDERSON: No, I did the carpentry.
COCKRELL: I see.
ANDERSON: Nichols, I think, did the painting.
COCKRELL: Oh, really? Was that soon after that?
ANDERSON: Oh, yes. He was working in conjunction with us as we were going along.
Robert Nichols is a painter who had done that for a number of years, the
inside work. Mr. Saunders, Bob Saunders, did the outside work. And I
think you have met him or . . .
COCKRELL: Not yet, but I will be.
ANDERSON: I think I was the guy that introduced him to the Trumans, but he became
very good friends and he did the work and a lot of the maintenance work
since '54, thirty years practically. Then this is the contract or the
agreement, the second one. This was the 9th of February 1954, and this
was in March of 1954 that we remodeled the attic. Before this library
building was erected, why, there was a fantastic amount of loot all in that
attic. It was just unreal, if you can imagine. If you have the confidence to
tour this library building, the Persian rug hanging drapery we moved I'll
say twenty times in remodeling this Truman home attic.
COCKRELL: So it was up there?
ANDERSON: And the silver from the U.S.S. Missouri was up there. It's a weight, not
enough to bother, but at any rate, we had to move it out of our way many
times. This was the agreement [see appendix item 3]: “to apply one-byfour
furring strips, sixteen inch centers to ceiling and rafters, nailing them
with five-sixteenths Arrowhead insulation board to the furring strips, both
ceiling and rafters, and applying the same insulation board to cover the
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stairway. Nailing down present floor and applying one-eighth Masonite
Temprtile on the attic floor, and building in three separate closets with
sliding doors, two to be along the North wall and one along the East wall.
Building in stairs from lower level to upper floor level. Enclosing the
South chimney, in cement asbestos. For all of these items complete for the
total sum of $2,976.20.” I think that when I was through, when I totaled it
up, it was less than $200 difference than if I had done it by time and
material, but he insisted on a contract.
COCKRELL: I see. Now, when you did that work, I know now you can see evidence of
the charred roof, had there been a fire up there?
ANDERSON: Yes, sir.
COCKRELL: Really?
ANDERSON: When, I do not know.
COCKRELL: Oh, really? He didn't say anything about it or . . . ?
ANDERSON: Yes, he said that it was one devil of job to clean up. But these artifacts that
had been acquired through the years of his presidency, he was needing to
have a place to store them that was somewhat dust-tight or more secure.
And this insulation board then had a fire-retardant effect, and they were
concerned about fire. And if there is any way that I can put any emphasis
on it, then the fire and the electrical in that building is that issue number
one. [chuckling] Okay?
COCKRELL: Yes.
ANDERSON: Down in the basement, I did some work there just recently to put those
temporary bars on there that they can readily remove. And when I was
doing this basement work in there, we took out one of the original light
bulbs in that house. And I don't know where it is, but it was the old, clear,
Edison, elongated droplet effect that . . .
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COCKRELL: It still worked?
ANDERSON: It still worked, sixty or seventy years afterwards. [chuckling]
COCKRELL: They don't make them like that anymore.
ANDERSON: But you still have the knob tube work in there, and the electrician, well,
I've made to Tom [Richter] a recommendation on the electrician, but the
number of electricians that I would allow on that, they are rare to find
workmen that are very competent that are also very reliable. You're
putting on restrictions that are at most impossible. And then this was
April. “I agree to furnish material and labor and install in the attic three
louver windows, translucent glass, and fiber glass screens, for a total sum
of $262.84,” to get more ventilation and such through there [see appendix
item 4].
COCKRELL: What was there before you did this?
ANDERSON: Rotted windows. We had to take out sash that had deteriorated
considerably.
COCKRELL: Were they just plain glass windows?
ANDERSON: As I recall. They were not ornamental. About the same time I did the
First Baptist Church and we put leaded-glass windows in those dormers at
the First Baptist Church there at Pleasant and Truman [Road], but I don't
recall if there was any . . . It might have been beveled glass, but I don't
think so.
COCKRELL: I see. Were they capable of being opened?
ANDERSON: Yes, sir, they were double-hung. See, they were just put up with two
sashes, as I recall, and the frame of these louvers could be removed and
you could see evidence of this parting stop. I haven't been up there in
many years.
COCKRELL: So, when you did this work in the attic, did Mr. Truman give you any
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indication or impression at all if the fire had been recent or if this had gone
back to maybe when the Gates lived there?
ANDERSON: The fire problem hadn't been all cleaned up when we got there. Though it
was very old, it wasn't like a month after the fire. I don't think the fire
occurred while he was the president. I believe it would have been back
when he was in the senate or before. But I can make a telephone call and
we can find out.
COCKRELL: I'd really appreciate it. That would help.
ANDERSON: Okay, there is a fire chief here that I'm acquainted with, and I am confident
that they can tell when it was.
COCKRELL: They have it in their files, okay.
ANDERSON: Calvin Morgan lives on King's Highway. [tape is turned off]
ANDERSON: I don't know how to say this, but I'm finding that as I am conversing with
people that are eventually going to have to make a determination, I want to
give you what foundation that I can, so the credibility of witnesses and
things of this sort all have to be weighed. Cal Morgan is a new chief in the
fire department. He hasn't always been a chief. He was a fireman when I .
. . I'm a rifleman, and I have taught a lot of people through the
conservation department hunter safety and competition shooting, and he
and I have hunted together and our sons are about the same age. We
scouted and camped together and whatever, but I was in the carpenters
and have helped him on the remodeling of his home. He was the president
of the firefighters union when there was considerable problems in
Independence.
The historical significance of the Pendergast-Truman relationship
had not ought to go unnoticed in your book or in your determination. To
know what really happened at this late date, there is no way, see, but the
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carryover of the Pendergast machine is still here. Note the skimming trial,
okay? But this man bucked the Pendergast-Sermon machine to the point
that his wife called my then-wife, and they were getting the “North End”
boys into the act of threatening, and their children were in grade school
and about three or four blocks from home. A man that called at one
o'clock in the afternoon and said, “Are you sure your baby daughter is
going to come home? And she's wearing . . .” this, this, this, and this.
Okay? Now, the party gets rough about that. Well, the reason that I'm in
on this is that my tour of duty in the Navy took me to China, and I don't
know if you've been to 'Nam [Vietnam] or where, but if you've been to the
Orient, then you know what the smell of a decaying body smells like. And
as a person starves they start to decay while they're still alive, and you can
remember that smell all the days of your life, and I have smelled that out
here in Independence. I adopted a three-year-old boy that had been
starved, and yet, of the families that were supposed to be caring for him,
some thirteen were identified by the juvenile court in the year that we had
him, you know, to establish abandonment. Why, some of them tried to
kidnap him from my place. And because of that, I had a pretty fair
association with the police, and they were patrolling my street every thirty
minutes, day and night. We'd pull the blind down, or a signal of some
kind, to stop and investigate in the event that someone had gained entry.
And me being a rifleman and a shooting enthusiast, why, I'd pull the plug
from a shotgun, and we loaded it for bear. So we played a rough game.
So my wife said, “Bring your child from school and come to our place.
Andy's ready.” So we've had that kind of association for quite a few years,
okay? So this man will not lie to you. Whether or not they have the
records is really the question.
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COCKRELL: I hope they do. That would really help.
ANDERSON: That would help you. Okay, well, that's as far as I can go. The man's
name is Cal Morgan. I don't believe that there was some work . . . This is
an attic job estimate that I have here. At the same time I was doing that
attic job, I was also doing other work up there that was piddling work, to
look at it now, but it was important to the overall project. This outfit is
still in business over Troost. I've just recently gotten some additional
work. That was the layout of the attic.
[End #4057; Begin #4058]
SHAVER: This is the second reel of an interview with C. E. Anderson, a building
contractor of Independence, Missouri. It was conducted by Ron Cockrell,
historian of the Midwest Regional Office of the National Park Service in
Omaha, Nebraska, for the Harry S Truman National Historic Site. This
interview took place on June 20, 1983.
COCKRELL: You really have the only floor plans for a lot of the house. There's
supposed to be a park service team coming down this week to measure the
house and do floor plans. But so far we haven't been working here too
much.
ANDERSON: Well, I have considered it a pleasure to have worked at it. I'm still maybe
just an old man wanting to have a dream, but my dreams still haven't come
true. That's the driveway . . . This is Mary Jane Truman's out in
Grandview that doesn't relate to this house.
COCKRELL: What happened on that driveway? Who did they get to come and do the
work?
ANDERSON: There was a new man in town, a new contractor in town, I even forget his
name now [Larkin?] that offered to do it for about a third of what, the way
I was doing it, and I still contend that it was a disservice to them, in that
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when you cut off eighteen inches of ground, regrade it, through an old
drive, that was a carriage drive, then you're cutting through the base rock
and the whole bit. My estimate will show that I talked to the regular
paving contractor and we were going to take out all of the base rock, re-lay
base rock, and then do a highway job, really, so that it would divert the
water to keep from going over onto the Wallaces, but it would turn it down
into Truman Road, and there would be a swale or a hump. By diversion, a
swale down the driveway, it would turn the water. Well, they wound up
with grading it down and putting a two-inch asphalt on it, and they've
redone it a number of times since then, you see. Well, the city and the
county . . . I hope I don't bore you.
COCKRELL: Oh, no.
ANDERSON: But I'm trying to tell you something, that I believe that a craftsman, to do
something that he's not ashamed of, needs to do the foundation work
before he builds the building. I'm still fighting within my union that we as
a trade need to train men to do monumental work, if the monumental work
is going to be done. Because the non-union or the right-to-work, the
happy-go-lucky, the farmer that comes in and is very willing to work, had
ought to be not able to do some of the work that the skilled craftsman is
able to do. And I contend that the trade school, the professional, ought to
challenge to excellence so that we have the craftsmen that they can send
from Kansas City to Paris. Rather than have to go to Paris, they come to
Kansas City, see? So, to do the foundation work for the driveway, the cost
before I'd even get to the topping, was going to be considerably more than
what this was. So . . .
COCKRELL: And he was willing to settle for the lower bid?
ANDERSON: He took the lower bid because of the price.
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COCKRELL: I see. Well, that's strange because he was known for being a road builder
and doing a very good job on county roads. Yet, on his own driveway he
would settle for substandard.
ANDERSON: Well, have you been caught in a trap of someone telling you something
that wasn't so?
COCKRELL: Yes. [chuckling]
ANDERSON: Okay. How to distinguish between truth and fiction? In other words, for
you to know that I'm telling you the truth, you're appraising my credibility
right now, you see? I'm not holding it against Harry or Bess Truman in
any sense of the word. I'm saying that the man was a very good salesman,
and he sold them something that was not what I think they ought to do.
And at that time I was younger and more ignorant, and I couldn't have
afforded to do it the way that I thought it ought to be, and at the price that
would meet the other man. There was no way of giving him something for
nothing.
Well, this was a matter of purchasing and installation of storm
doors and windows on the house, and handrails for the attic in the house
[see appendix item 5]. This was October 22, 1954. So, really, all I have is
about a year's work at various times throughout the year to show that . . .
That's job 6 ½, new screens in preparation for painters [see appendix item
6].
COCKRELL: New screens? Was that throughout the house or in the attic?
ANDERSON: I don't know how many of them I had. I made some of the screens looks
like with—material. Six feet of 42.
COCKRELL: So [unintelligible] maintenance.
ANDERSON: Maintenance and cleaning [see appendix item 7]. There's your 11 feet of
24-inch 12, 48 feet of 28, 11 feet of 30, and 33 feet of 36, and 66 feet of
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42, so we did a bit of re-screening. But that's twenty-seven years ago. If I
forget things a week ago, how in the world do you expect me . . .
[chuckling] But you see what I'm getting at here. So will this help you?
COCKRELL: Oh, definitely. Yes, we'll keep that for our records.
ANDERSON: [unintelligible].
COCKRELL: [unintelligible] the best basement. Is that one for the kitchen?
ANDERSON: Extra working materials as described here [see appendix item 8]: plastic
tile, plaster in stairway to basement, sand for patio plumbing trench. We
had a plumbing drain that went underneath that back patio.
COCKRELL: So you had to dig a trench?
ANDERSON: Yes, and then build sand back in on top of it and re-lay the brick. And
formica and plywood, the counter top, plywood, also floor. I don't know
where all this was. Of course, I want to look.
But there is a story that I want you to get across somewhere in your
history. But in the front room [music room], this fireplace, before we put
this steel beam in, the floor had sagged because of this dad-gum piano out
here. And it wound up anyhow that as I was lifting this back up, why, we
noticed that some tiles were loose on this fireplace. And there was one
particular tile, and there's a story in this trail that follows this tile around
this fireplace. And it's raised, glazed tile, that one tile fits to another one.
It shows a little boy going fishing down a trail in the woods, as I recall.
Well, one of them—it was a key tile—was broken, and the House of Tile
here in Kansas City—a man named Slater was the owner of it—and this
was 1954, shortly after the war, but tile hadn't been . . . should we say reestablished
with Spain and Mexico. He had been dealing with them, but
there wasn't any special work from Italy or anything of this sort. Well, he
contacted something like six different countries, suppliers in six different
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countries, to see if he could have one tile that was broken replaced. And
finally, there was one Italian tile-setter that he sent out, and, “Ah! Give me
some room!” So we just cleaned out an area, and I saw the man put into a
clamp where all four pieces are different. I mean, there were three pieces
of the tile that were still there. And he held it in a clamp and then touched
up where the cracks were and re-glazed it with a torch.
COCKRELL: Right there on the spot?
ANDERSON: Right on the spot. The man was an artist if I ever saw one work.
COCKRELL: They had him flown in from Italy?
ANDERSON: No, he was an Italian that worked for a company.
COCKRELL: He was from Italy, I see.
ANDERSON: But he really knew his trade. Now, to see those kind of men, to give them
an opportunity, that is a rare thing. [telephone rings and interview is
interrupted] Well, anyway, I was thinking of this plastic tile and that
reminded me of another story. I thought I'd just pass it on, for what it was
worth.
COCKRELL: Did you find out anything about that fireplace, the tiles that were on there?
Was that original at the Gates?
ANDERSON: I didn't know. I would say it was original with the Gates.
COCKRELL: It looks kind of like it would have been. It looks like you did quite a few
jobs for the Trumans.
ANDERSON: Yes, I did. See, this is up in 1956.
COCKRELL: How did Mr. Truman know to get a hold of your services?
ANDERSON: I don't know how far to tell you, because some of this might embarrass
someone. But use discretion, okay?
COCKRELL: Okay.
ANDERSON: When you're asked to do something that's extremely difficult to do, and
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then a salesman from a mill company sees you do it, then later on when
they're playing bridge or something and someone asks for a difficult thing,
why, “All right, I'll recommend this . . . I just saw a man do something . . .”
[End #4058; Begin #4059]
SHAVER: This is the third reel of an interview with C. E. Anderson, a building
contractor from Independence, Missouri. The interview was conducted by
Ron Cockrell, historian from the Midwest Regional Office of the National
Park Service in Omaha, Nebraska, for the Harry S Truman National
Historic Site. This interview was conducted on June 20, 1983.
ANDERSON: I feel like bragging a bit, in a sense, but it's not bragging. I'm wanting to
explain what happened. I'm a member of the Reorganized Latter Day
Saints church, and an uncle of mine lived up here at . . . well, you can't see
it from here, but at Nickell and McCoy, probably the man that kept me
sane when I was in the service in how to be aboard a ship when you'll have
fifteen or twenty go insane of the people that are under stress and your unit
gets a unit citation because . . . we filled in the gaps and such. That man's
stability helped not only myself but other people that were under stress that
I in turn could help out.
Okay, this man, when I came back from the service, went to
school, got my degree and taught school in Alaska, and my wife grew ill,
and it turns out that she got jaundice up there. We realized that it was a
diet problem, and that we needed to come back. Well, where are you
going to work? I worked in Texas and all over the country, so I was a
journeyman and an industrial arts/math teacher, so I could go anywhere.
But that man, I visited him, and he said, “Why don't you help me here?”
And they were building on down . . . I think it's between here and 24
Highway and over a block or two, at Slover Park Church. The trim work
13
from American Sash and Door around the baptistery was a frame coming
this way and into split tile. Well, he was running the volunteer work, and
they needed to have someone that could put that big picture frame
together. Now, notice the peculiar work here, that this is wider, thicker
than it is back here. All right, to accent this door, if you were really
wanting to accent it, and you put twelve-inch-wide trim on it and bring this
out some four inches and slope it back, you would have that same picture
frame effect. Then, when you come down at this point where you'd be
able to see the water, and then below that you'd have your split tile to fit
this picture frame into, and a man gave you only one piece said, “Can you
make that picture frame fit that tile?” When you have a rough surface, I
worked a half a day on each of those two pieces of wood a foot long.
The supplier of the $300 or $400 frame at that time was Hancock.
The salesman came in to watch me. I didn't care if he was watching me or
not. But he was the guy that recommended me to Truman. And ever so
many places, American Sash and Door would send me out to do something
that someone had botched up or whatever.
COCKRELL: Oh, I see. [chuckling]
ANDERSON: So, from a very difficult . . . But I stopped to see a guy today to see if I
could get in . . . In what, 1951 or 1952? So I'd kind of like to see how the
thing looks, and I haven't looked at it in thirty years, see?
COCKRELL: Oh, really? Yes, since the fifties.
ANDERSON: But this was a recommendation from two pieces of wood that were very
difficult to fit. And then, when this came up, “Why don't you go see him?”
And they made it over a bridge game, see? So this is the story of how I
did this.
COCKRELL: You had an excellent recommendation then.
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ANDERSON: Well, from a friend. What I'm trying to tell you, or show you, is that I've
been there, and now I'd kind of like to see how the thing stood up. I've
been in the basement, so I know blame well that the footings that I put in
there, they didn't move.
COCKRELL: Probably not. [chuckling]
ANDERSON: What I'm concerned about, I haven't been in above to see if there has been
settlement. There might have been, because when I was putting those
temporary bars on the windows, why, a four- or five-inch downspout was
running water across the floor of the basement, and this ought not to be.
COCKRELL: That's strange.
ANDERSON: So we reconnected . . . I think Tom's got a record showing that I
straightened out the downspout. He helped me a little bit to straighten out
the metal so we could reconnect it.
COCKRELL: It was running right into the basement?
ANDERSON: Yes.
COCKRELL: Intentionally then?
ANDERSON: No, it had been . . . a dog or something had gotten underneath the porch
and had disconnected it, so that the downspout, instead of going out onto
the splash box, why, it was disconnected and was running in one of the
windows and you had problems.
Now, how to reach you individually is very difficult, but it can be
done, okay? I'm not in any position, nor am I wanting to in any way, to
give any kind of a threat or anything of this sort, but I have a friend that
lives down in Holden, and he had a son that volunteered to get into the
Navy. Well, the guy was a little erratic, and he had a twitch or something
of this sort. I've seen it happen, you call it cannibalism in a chicken group,
but to get someone that has some nervous twitch or some irregularity or
15
something, and then a gang of boys or young men that are not controlled
or not disciplined, they'll start picking on the guy. And he took a
dishonorable discharge rather than to go back to his unit at Norfolk,
Virginia. Okay? Now, at the time, Symington was senator, Bill Randall
was a representative, and I knew both of them personally, being a delegate
to a number of conventions where they were speaking, and we'd been in
their offices, we had talked as committeemen from our carpenters to find
out labor-interested items. Yet, neither of those congressmen could
persuade this young ex-sailor to level with them, see? But in some way,
do such a good job that there would be . . . if Jesus was watching you as an
inspector writing the history, do your level best, so that your superiors can
get the information that they need to determine at what point to make that
house come back to life. Because Truman gave a considerable impetus to
this whole area.
COCKRELL: He certainly did.
ANDERSON: Well, I'm of the opinion that Pendergast didn't sway Truman as much as
some people would lead you to believe. Now, verify that as a historian if
you can. I don't believe you can, but you might be able to.
COCKRELL: It will be very difficult to do. There's a lot of different opinions on that.
ANDERSON: So how to find the truth at this late a date, but please verify what you have.
That's the reason I'm around to show you, and I believe that I can
document what I have been saying, okay?
COCKRELL: So are you going to leave this material with Tom and I?
ANDERSON: Now, that's a good question. Of course, now I have to make a
determination.
COCKRELL: But it will be kept in its top form also. What we would need to do is
duplicate the more important documents.
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ANDERSON: Let me get better acquainted with you before I answer that.
COCKRELL: Okay.
ANDERSON: And I'm not trying to be evasive. I want to know you better. Fair enough?
COCKRELL: Okay.
ANDERSON: These, yes, you've got them.
COCKRELL: Oh, okay.
ANDERSON: That's no problem. We can go over here to Harvey Jones and make a print
of this if you want, and that might help.
COCKRELL: Okay. So Tom doesn't have a copy of that?
ANDERSON: He does not.
COCKRELL: Okay.
ANDERSON: You're unfortunately caught in this credibility trap. I don't know how far I
can trust you, okay?
COCKRELL: What about Tom? [chuckling]
ANDERSON: Well, I mean I don't know you guys.
COCKRELL: I see.
ANDERSON: See what I'm saying? I wouldn't want to . . . All right, let's say that these
would be tossed aside, and I'd come back after them. I'd have no recourse
as to what could I do. All right, then, at some years later, well, I worked
. . . I've seen this happen: craftsmen that said that they had worked for
Kings Ranch or Phillips Ranch or whatever, and they had no
documentation or they had no way of proving it, and they were a derelict
on the street. I taught school in Alaska, and I saw a man that was a
millionaire come up there to try to show those old-timers how to build.
And in one year's time he died in three-inch runoff of water because he
didn't have a friend who would roll him over and he drowned in the gutter
of a street, see? He had alienated every friend that he had, and there wasn't
17
a soul there that would turn him over, and he was so drunk that he couldn't
roll over. So I'm saying that I believing the Scripture when it says, “When
you think you stand, take heed lest you fall.” So I want to make this
available to you, believe me I do, or I wouldn't be showing you. But I
might also, if you think that there would be a possibility of losing them,
then I'd rather that you'd . . . Let's make the copies, and then you can work
from the copies.
COCKRELL: I think probably the better thing to do would be to check with Tom and
see. I think he would like to see what you have here, the drawings and the
lists of material, and then see if he would like to negotiate with you to have
you loan them to us, or if he thinks we can get by just making copies.
ANDERSON: Well, as you wish. I'm not wanting to play dog in the manger. This isn't
the idea, and I don't know of anyone else that I can trust. But you are an
arm of the United States Government, and I'm a veteran. I've had a
commendation, and yet you're looking at a guy that has had to have been
. . . I have been put into this particular position, to where a federal officer
and I . . . I wondered whether or not I would have to kill him to keep him
out of my house. Well, when a treasury agent starts coming into my house
against my will, that's bad news, okay? But inside my house you're fair
game, unless I get mad at you.
COCKRELL: That's the way it should be. [chuckling]
ANDERSON: And I made a believer out of the guy, but his credentials were old. From
his badge or his ID, I couldn't identify the man, see? And you take your
beard off, and you have a picture in your beard, and you're a whale of a
different looking guy, see? The same deal with a picture with no beard
and in a beard, and then it's difficult, see? And nope . . .
COCKRELL: I don't blame you.
18
ANDERSON: So I'm of this opinion. I'm not saying that I'm talking about trust, when I'm
also talking about the reason that I have to distrust, see?
COCKRELL: I have a vested interest in the Truman project because, first of all, I was
born and raised in Independence, and I've lived here . . . well, twenty-two
years. I live in Omaha now, where the regional office of the park service
is, and all my relatives live here in Independence, and I have a special
feeling for the Trumans. I think he's probably one of the greatest
presidents we've ever had, and I personally would like to have this be one
of the showcases of the national park system, because it could be a gem.
ANDERSON: It could be.
COCKRELL: I think it will be.
ANDERSON: Do you have a card perchance?
COCKRELL: An identification? Yes.
ANDERSON: Well, I'm just thinking of a personal card or something of this sort.
COCKRELL: Well, I don't have a business card. I just have my park service ID.
ANDERSON: Well, I was thinking of getting your name down so that I can ask for
Ron . . .
COCKRELL: Okay.
ANDERSON: I find this to be a way of keeping things somewhat in order.
COCKRELL: Well, that's a good idea.
ANDERSON: Writing down when I'm talking to somebody. You would be the park
historian?
COCKRELL: Well, I am actually in the regional office. I'm on here for just another
month to do research, and coming back and forth between Independence
and Omaha.
[End #4059; Begin #4060]
SHAVER: This is reel number four of an interview with C. E. Anderson, a building
19
contractor of Independence, Missouri. This interview is conducted by Ron
Cockrell, a historian with the Midwest Regional Office of the National
Park Service in Omaha, Nebraska, for the Harry S Truman National
Historic Site. This interview was conducted on June 20, 1983.
COCKRELL: I have been assigned to the Harry S Truman National Historic Site.
ANDERSON: [chuckling] Well, you see what I'm trying to say. One of the things, I hope
that I don't antagonize, I don't want to. But on the other hand, I'm a
craftsman, I'm a teacher, and I refuse to be intimidated. I would like to
have . . . really, as a craftsman, the only thing that I have to sell is my skill
and credibility. As a schoolteacher, I've put myself into some hellish
situations in trying to develop a . . . well, it's a pre-vocational effort out at
the juvenile detention home.
COCKRELL: That's a job.
ANDERSON: I've been flat on my back with a sixteen-year-old on top of me, but this
was my own doing. I challenged a guy, and he took me. But we help turn
these teenagers around, too. Well, how do you get people to consider the
possibility of changing their lifestyle if you don't give them alternatives?
So I was asking him to go from a streetwise thief to a beginning craftsman,
and you decide whether or not the more you steal, why, the less you get for
it, or the more you nail, why, the more they'll pay you for it. Well, this is
the life, this is the choice that you're making. I think I can still have
something to do with this. One of my vested interests in this, and I would
appreciate whatever help that you could give me, in that I want, if possible
. . . and I'm sixty-three years old, but I would like very much to use
working on this project as a means of challenging the young men in the
trade to do work beyond their capability. And if I can do that, and I might
be one of the few individuals that will even try to do that, then we can
20
make this a showplace of the park service, and we'll make Williamsburg,
Virginia, look like a . . . Yes, I mean money was spent there like crazy,
see? And I'd love to see it, but I'm saying that you have craft capability in
this area of doing whatever you want to have done, but through the park
service, you let us know. Get us into the language to where we can
understand what you want done, and it'll be done.
COCKRELL: Well, that's what our purpose is here. Probably by the end of the summer
my report will be done, and then the recommendations will be made. This
week, there's a team of architects coming down—later this afternoon, in
fact—to draw up all the specifications and the drawings for that job's bill.
Was that $75,000 or so? So, once all . . .
[End #4060]
END OF INTERVIEW