Last updated: December 9, 2025
Article
Alfred Kucinski
History Telephone Interview with Alfred W. Kucinski 41st AAA (Anti-Aircraft Artillery) 1950-51
Interviewed by Mary Rasa, NPS
August 19, 2004
Transcribed by Mary Rasa
Editor’s notes on parenthesis ( )
Mary Rasa: Hello. Today is Thursday, August 19, 2004. My name is Mary Rasa, Sandy Hook Museum Curator. I am on the phone with a veteran of Fort Hancock and we are going to conduct a telephone oral history interview. Please state your name for our record.
Alfred Kucinski: My name is Alfred W. Kucinski. K-U-C-I-N-S-K-I.
Mary Rasa: Please tell me when and where were you born?
Alfred Kucinski: I was born in Passaic, New Jersey. September 24, 1929.
Mary Rasa: What schools did you attend?
Alfred Kucinski: I attended Clifton public school system in Clifton, New Jersey.
Mary Rasa: And did you graduate high school there?
Alfred Kucinski: Yes, I did.
Mary Rasa: Did your father or grandfather serve in the military before you?
Alfred Kucinski: Yes. My father did. He served in the Army in the First World War. He was an immigrant from Poland. He joined up.
Mary Rasa: Did he go overseas?
Alfred Kucinski: No. As a matter of fact, he was at the troop transport in Hoboken when the War ended. He never went over. He lucked out.
Mary Rasa: Tell me how you become involved in the Army?
Alfred Kucinski: Well, after I got out of high school, as a matter of fact, before I even graduated I started inquiring about going into the Army. I was bugging my parents that I wanted to go in. At that time, I wasn’t quite ready to go to college, so I finally got them to consent for me because I was only 17 years old and they consented for me to go into the Army. And two days after I graduated from high school, I was on my way to Fort Dix for Basic Training.
Mary Rasa: What year was that?
Alfred Kucinski: 1947.
Mary Rasa: And then, how did you end up at Fort Hancock?
Alfred Kucinski: Well, I spent three years in the Army with the Army Security Agency. 21 months spent overseas in Africa in Asmara Eritrea, which is East Africa. And when I got out of the Army, I decided to join the inactive reserves, which I did. I got out on June 19, 1950. The Korean War started on June 25, 1950. (laughter) In September, I was back in the Army for another tour of duty as an enlisted reservist at that time. The first time I was in the Regular Army.
Mary Rasa: Did they put you back at Fort Dix?
Alfred Kucinski: Yeah. As a matter of fact, I was in a replacement depot there. And I got orders to report to the 41st AAA gun battalion to battalion headquarters for an interview because they needed a high speed radio operator. And that was my training in the Army Security Agency. I went there and they interviewed me and they said, “Okay. When can you report?” I mean, “We are going to cut the orders for you and so you can report the next day” and I was there. And we stayed there at Fort Dix for, oh, I guess until April 1951. And then we moved over to Fort Hancock. They were reopening Fort Hancock and I was with the original party that went in because I went in with radio equipment to set up communications because we had the electricity. The phone lines were down. I don’t think they had enough phone lines to handle all the traffic they were expecting.
Mary Rasa: So how many people were in the unit that had just been created?
Alfred Kucinski: Well, you mean us sent over to Fort Hancock?
Mary Rasa: Yeah.
Alfred Kucinski: Well, a whole battalion went over eventually, but we were an advance party. The advance party consisted of, oh, I don’t know I guess maybe fifty men or something like that.
Mary Rasa: Okay.
Alfred Kucinski: They had (to) bring over the mess hall. The sergeant, the mess sergeant and all that stuff. There weren’t very many of us. I would say, approximately 50. You know, my mind is fuzzy on that fact.
Mary Rasa: When everybody was there how many do you think were there then?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh, we had the whole battalion. The whole battalion strength, whatever that is. We had a, we had four batteries plus headquarters and headquarters battery. So, we had five batteries of men there. And each battery consisted of approximately two hundred men. So, I would say there were about a thousand people there at that time.
Mary Rasa: Oh, okay. Now were you housed in the wooden buildings or the brick buildings?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh, I was housed in the wooden buildings. I wouldn’t know how to live in a brick building. (laughter) I stayed in the wooden barracks. As a matter of fact I was in Fort Hancock, maybe about eight years ago and I took a ride through there and I think most of the wooden barracks were down if I’m not mistaken.
Mary Rasa: Yes. Did you know anything about Fort Hancock before you came here?
Alfred Kucinski: Well, I knew Fort Hancock and the history of Fort Hancock, that it established in the First World War they had the coastal artillery there to protect New York Harbor. And I think prior to that they also had the artillery there to protect the harbor from you know invading forces coming into New York Harbor. That was the gateway to New York Harbor.
Mary Rasa: And you knew this before you actually got here?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh yeah.
Mary Rasa: Okay.
Alfred Kucinski: Well, I was a Jersey boy so I knew everything about New Jersey.
Mary Rasa: So you knew the exact job you’d be performing before you got here?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
Mary Rasa: What was your rank at the time?
Alfred Kucinski: At the time I got there I was corporal. By the time I left I was a staff sergeant.
Mary Rasa: When you were working, since you were doing radio communications, were you near the guns or were you in a building?
Alfred Kucinski: I was in a building. We were sorta like a fixed station. And being, I was chief radio operator for the battalion and we constantly had contact with all the batteries. Establishing communication plus with brigade. And then what happens when they were going out to establish other sites for their weaponry we went out, the communications section and the headquarters battery we ended up in an armory over in Staten Island. And from there we conducted our base of operations. What we would do, we would contact all these various sites. They were locating to check out how the communications would be. That would be in Newark. I think it was near the airport in Newark and possibly in Nutley and East Hanover and a few other places.
Mary Rasa: So they all started out of Fort Hancock, I assume because it was already their property and then they went to these little sites.
Alfred Kucinski: Well, Fort Hancock was the base of operations for our battalion. That was it. So they just went out in little groups to set up these things.
Mary Rasa: What type of work did you do after you left the service?
Alfred Kucinski: When I got out of the service, I went to school to become a tool and dye designer. And I went full time for two years under the G. I. Bill and got my certificate. Then, I went to work in the aerospace industry. I ended up retiring. I was a configuration analyst and what we do, we worked on the B-2 bomber, B-1 bomber and space shuttle and programs like that. We had developed the ring laser gyro, gyroscopes that kept all these space craft level in the air.
Mary Rasa: So, do you think your work in the Army helped you in your future work?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh, absolutely. And as a matter of fact, what I did with my radio work, I got out, I got married and my wife and I have eight children. And naturally I needed money to support them.
Mary Rasa: Did you say eight?
Alfred Kucinski: Eight.
Mary Rasa: Oh, okay.
Alfred Kucinski: Okay. And what happened, then I worked part-time through my Army experience, I got a part-time job on weekends working at a radio station. Plus, I had my own cable television program for, I think it was for three years.
Mary Rasa: Oh, okay.
Alfred Kucinski: So, all of that Army training really helped me.
Mary Rasa: It was good skills.
Alfred Kucinski: Yeah right. It certainly did, because I wasn’t bashful.
Mary Rasa: What year did you actually leave Fort Hancock?
Alfred Kucinski: 1951.
Mary Rasa: And did you end up going to Korea?
Alfred Kucinski: No. No. No. Stayed stateside. In the first hitch, I was in Asmara Eritrea which is in East Africa. Its right north of Ethiopia. And I was in the Army Security Agency and we had a radio intercept station up there. That was the forerunner of the NSA, the National Security Agency.
Mary Rasa: Was the building you worked in near, in Fort Hancock or was it further out by the guns?
Alfred Kucinski: In Fort Hancock itself. It was a wooden building. Yeah. Yeah. As I say, I never had a brick building in my life.
Mary Rasa: Were you working with any civilians or were they all military?
Alfred Kucinski: No. Strictly military.
Mary Rasa: Was a mess hall nearby your barracks?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh yes. Yes. The mess hall was close by the battery area.
Mary Rasa: How was the food?
Alfred Kucinski: The food was good. I mean, I’m still alive. I’m 75 years old, so I mean it didn’t kill me. Well, you know a lot had to do with the type of Mess Sergeant we had, if you had a good mess sergeant. For instance, if you were eating on a battalion level, you are not feeding as many troops as when you’re on a division level. So, naturally they can cater to you a little bit more.
Mary Rasa: What social activities did they, now the Fort had just been reopened so did they reopen the theater and the Service Club?
Alfred Kucinski: No, we didn’t have that but the beach was open. So, you know, you could go fishing or you could go swimming and then of course, you could go up to Atlantic Highlands. They had ample watering holes up there and restaurants also.
Mary Rasa: So, what was it like coming to a Fort that had just been closed down and was re-opening? Was there, was everything basically just closed?
Alfred Kucinski: Yeah. Everything was closed, but what happened was we opened some of these buildings and the rest of the outfit started coming around. Like with our commo officer, that’s communications and commo sergeant. We would go around in weapons carriers and jeeps and visit these abandoned buildings. And get in there and there’s a lot of stuff you could scrounge like fluorescent lights and lamps that you might need and gooseneck lamps and things that the Army doesn’t usually supply that are (in) short demand. So, we were able to gather that stuff up and make our life more livable. And also some equipment and tools that we used in our radio work.
Mary Rasa: Since it was pretty closed, were they starting to get families back into the officers’ quarters?
Alfred Kucinski: At that time, no. Not really, not that I can recall. I don’t think there were any, you know. And they did have a Coast Guard Station up at the edge of the hook. And they were there when we got there, but they were a separate entity.
Mary Rasa: So, it was pretty desolate then?
Alfred Kucinski: Yes it was. As a matter of fact, being young G.I.’s we had (been) going through all those caves where all those coastal guns were or would be. And you know, really, it was kind of eerie and very interesting part of history that we gathered.
Mary Rasa: Did you ever go to New York while you were out here?
Alfred Kucinski: No. I did not. No, no.
Mary Rasa: Was this was a fun or boring place to be stationed?
Alfred Kucinski: It was a good place. It was acceptable. We used to take a ride over to Keansburg. You know, to the beach over there to the amusements that they had. And it was good duty as far as that was concerned.
Mary Rasa: Anything especially humorous occur while you were here?
Alfred Kucinski: Humorous. Not really. I’m trying to think. I can’t think of anything humorous.
Mary Rasa: Anything stand out in your mind?
Alfred Kucinski: No. It was pretty basic. You know, do your job and hoping that you get out of the Army as quickly as possible. That was the thing. And you know, after over three years, going into the Army four years, you know, you say, “I’ve had enough of this. Let me go home and grow up and get married and settle down.”
Mary Rasa: Do you keep in touch with anyone?
Alfred Kucinski: No. Not, no, I haven’t. You know part of the problem was when they first came up from, I think they were at Fort Bliss, our outfit came up to Fort Dix. I was inserted into the outfit. Most of those boys were from Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia and Mississippi and I was the only Yankee there at the time. They looked at me with a weary eye because I spoke funny. (laughter) And after a while they got some more guys in from the east coast and Philadelphia and things like that. But I had some friendships, but after we, after I got out and I went to school I didn’t have time for that because school was full time and I was finishing studying and it was time for me to get down and get serious with life.
Mary Rasa: Did you expect that you could potentially go to Korea or was that kind of?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That was in my mind. As a matter of fact, I expected I would be going there. Why I didn’t, you know, surprised me. There was a lot of rumors that the outfit was going overseas, but it never happened. And I don’t know where they are now. I tried. I got on the website and looked up, tried to find out the history and where they went but I have been drawing blanks so far. I guess I haven’t got into the right button anyway.
Mary Rasa: Anything else you want to say?
Alfred Kucinski: No, well that’s about it. I mean, the Army was a good experience for me. It let me grow up. I went in as a kid, 17. I came out, I was 22. And you know, I put a lot of time in. I made a lot of friends the first time I was in. And the second time, I had acquaintances too. There were a couple of buddies we used to go out together, but after I got out we sort of lost track of each other. And that was it. But I tell you I wouldn’t exchange my Army experience for anything in the world. It really, you know, it really opened my eyes and made me grow up. Taught me some discipline and taught me how to shoot a rifle, which I never knew how to do before. But I never would shoot a 90 mm gun. That’s one thing, I don’t think I was strong enough to pull the lanyard to make the gun go off.
MR: Okay, well thank you for your time. I am going to turn the tape off.
End of Interview
Interviewed by Mary Rasa, NPS
August 19, 2004
Transcribed by Mary Rasa
Editor’s notes on parenthesis ( )
Mary Rasa: Hello. Today is Thursday, August 19, 2004. My name is Mary Rasa, Sandy Hook Museum Curator. I am on the phone with a veteran of Fort Hancock and we are going to conduct a telephone oral history interview. Please state your name for our record.
Alfred Kucinski: My name is Alfred W. Kucinski. K-U-C-I-N-S-K-I.
Mary Rasa: Please tell me when and where were you born?
Alfred Kucinski: I was born in Passaic, New Jersey. September 24, 1929.
Mary Rasa: What schools did you attend?
Alfred Kucinski: I attended Clifton public school system in Clifton, New Jersey.
Mary Rasa: And did you graduate high school there?
Alfred Kucinski: Yes, I did.
Mary Rasa: Did your father or grandfather serve in the military before you?
Alfred Kucinski: Yes. My father did. He served in the Army in the First World War. He was an immigrant from Poland. He joined up.
Mary Rasa: Did he go overseas?
Alfred Kucinski: No. As a matter of fact, he was at the troop transport in Hoboken when the War ended. He never went over. He lucked out.
Mary Rasa: Tell me how you become involved in the Army?
Alfred Kucinski: Well, after I got out of high school, as a matter of fact, before I even graduated I started inquiring about going into the Army. I was bugging my parents that I wanted to go in. At that time, I wasn’t quite ready to go to college, so I finally got them to consent for me because I was only 17 years old and they consented for me to go into the Army. And two days after I graduated from high school, I was on my way to Fort Dix for Basic Training.
Mary Rasa: What year was that?
Alfred Kucinski: 1947.
Mary Rasa: And then, how did you end up at Fort Hancock?
Alfred Kucinski: Well, I spent three years in the Army with the Army Security Agency. 21 months spent overseas in Africa in Asmara Eritrea, which is East Africa. And when I got out of the Army, I decided to join the inactive reserves, which I did. I got out on June 19, 1950. The Korean War started on June 25, 1950. (laughter) In September, I was back in the Army for another tour of duty as an enlisted reservist at that time. The first time I was in the Regular Army.
Mary Rasa: Did they put you back at Fort Dix?
Alfred Kucinski: Yeah. As a matter of fact, I was in a replacement depot there. And I got orders to report to the 41st AAA gun battalion to battalion headquarters for an interview because they needed a high speed radio operator. And that was my training in the Army Security Agency. I went there and they interviewed me and they said, “Okay. When can you report?” I mean, “We are going to cut the orders for you and so you can report the next day” and I was there. And we stayed there at Fort Dix for, oh, I guess until April 1951. And then we moved over to Fort Hancock. They were reopening Fort Hancock and I was with the original party that went in because I went in with radio equipment to set up communications because we had the electricity. The phone lines were down. I don’t think they had enough phone lines to handle all the traffic they were expecting.
Mary Rasa: So how many people were in the unit that had just been created?
Alfred Kucinski: Well, you mean us sent over to Fort Hancock?
Mary Rasa: Yeah.
Alfred Kucinski: Well, a whole battalion went over eventually, but we were an advance party. The advance party consisted of, oh, I don’t know I guess maybe fifty men or something like that.
Mary Rasa: Okay.
Alfred Kucinski: They had (to) bring over the mess hall. The sergeant, the mess sergeant and all that stuff. There weren’t very many of us. I would say, approximately 50. You know, my mind is fuzzy on that fact.
Mary Rasa: When everybody was there how many do you think were there then?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh, we had the whole battalion. The whole battalion strength, whatever that is. We had a, we had four batteries plus headquarters and headquarters battery. So, we had five batteries of men there. And each battery consisted of approximately two hundred men. So, I would say there were about a thousand people there at that time.
Mary Rasa: Oh, okay. Now were you housed in the wooden buildings or the brick buildings?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh, I was housed in the wooden buildings. I wouldn’t know how to live in a brick building. (laughter) I stayed in the wooden barracks. As a matter of fact I was in Fort Hancock, maybe about eight years ago and I took a ride through there and I think most of the wooden barracks were down if I’m not mistaken.
Mary Rasa: Yes. Did you know anything about Fort Hancock before you came here?
Alfred Kucinski: Well, I knew Fort Hancock and the history of Fort Hancock, that it established in the First World War they had the coastal artillery there to protect New York Harbor. And I think prior to that they also had the artillery there to protect the harbor from you know invading forces coming into New York Harbor. That was the gateway to New York Harbor.
Mary Rasa: And you knew this before you actually got here?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh yeah.
Mary Rasa: Okay.
Alfred Kucinski: Well, I was a Jersey boy so I knew everything about New Jersey.
Mary Rasa: So you knew the exact job you’d be performing before you got here?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
Mary Rasa: What was your rank at the time?
Alfred Kucinski: At the time I got there I was corporal. By the time I left I was a staff sergeant.
Mary Rasa: When you were working, since you were doing radio communications, were you near the guns or were you in a building?
Alfred Kucinski: I was in a building. We were sorta like a fixed station. And being, I was chief radio operator for the battalion and we constantly had contact with all the batteries. Establishing communication plus with brigade. And then what happens when they were going out to establish other sites for their weaponry we went out, the communications section and the headquarters battery we ended up in an armory over in Staten Island. And from there we conducted our base of operations. What we would do, we would contact all these various sites. They were locating to check out how the communications would be. That would be in Newark. I think it was near the airport in Newark and possibly in Nutley and East Hanover and a few other places.
Mary Rasa: So they all started out of Fort Hancock, I assume because it was already their property and then they went to these little sites.
Alfred Kucinski: Well, Fort Hancock was the base of operations for our battalion. That was it. So they just went out in little groups to set up these things.
Mary Rasa: What type of work did you do after you left the service?
Alfred Kucinski: When I got out of the service, I went to school to become a tool and dye designer. And I went full time for two years under the G. I. Bill and got my certificate. Then, I went to work in the aerospace industry. I ended up retiring. I was a configuration analyst and what we do, we worked on the B-2 bomber, B-1 bomber and space shuttle and programs like that. We had developed the ring laser gyro, gyroscopes that kept all these space craft level in the air.
Mary Rasa: So, do you think your work in the Army helped you in your future work?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh, absolutely. And as a matter of fact, what I did with my radio work, I got out, I got married and my wife and I have eight children. And naturally I needed money to support them.
Mary Rasa: Did you say eight?
Alfred Kucinski: Eight.
Mary Rasa: Oh, okay.
Alfred Kucinski: Okay. And what happened, then I worked part-time through my Army experience, I got a part-time job on weekends working at a radio station. Plus, I had my own cable television program for, I think it was for three years.
Mary Rasa: Oh, okay.
Alfred Kucinski: So, all of that Army training really helped me.
Mary Rasa: It was good skills.
Alfred Kucinski: Yeah right. It certainly did, because I wasn’t bashful.
Mary Rasa: What year did you actually leave Fort Hancock?
Alfred Kucinski: 1951.
Mary Rasa: And did you end up going to Korea?
Alfred Kucinski: No. No. No. Stayed stateside. In the first hitch, I was in Asmara Eritrea which is in East Africa. Its right north of Ethiopia. And I was in the Army Security Agency and we had a radio intercept station up there. That was the forerunner of the NSA, the National Security Agency.
Mary Rasa: Was the building you worked in near, in Fort Hancock or was it further out by the guns?
Alfred Kucinski: In Fort Hancock itself. It was a wooden building. Yeah. Yeah. As I say, I never had a brick building in my life.
Mary Rasa: Were you working with any civilians or were they all military?
Alfred Kucinski: No. Strictly military.
Mary Rasa: Was a mess hall nearby your barracks?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh yes. Yes. The mess hall was close by the battery area.
Mary Rasa: How was the food?
Alfred Kucinski: The food was good. I mean, I’m still alive. I’m 75 years old, so I mean it didn’t kill me. Well, you know a lot had to do with the type of Mess Sergeant we had, if you had a good mess sergeant. For instance, if you were eating on a battalion level, you are not feeding as many troops as when you’re on a division level. So, naturally they can cater to you a little bit more.
Mary Rasa: What social activities did they, now the Fort had just been reopened so did they reopen the theater and the Service Club?
Alfred Kucinski: No, we didn’t have that but the beach was open. So, you know, you could go fishing or you could go swimming and then of course, you could go up to Atlantic Highlands. They had ample watering holes up there and restaurants also.
Mary Rasa: So, what was it like coming to a Fort that had just been closed down and was re-opening? Was there, was everything basically just closed?
Alfred Kucinski: Yeah. Everything was closed, but what happened was we opened some of these buildings and the rest of the outfit started coming around. Like with our commo officer, that’s communications and commo sergeant. We would go around in weapons carriers and jeeps and visit these abandoned buildings. And get in there and there’s a lot of stuff you could scrounge like fluorescent lights and lamps that you might need and gooseneck lamps and things that the Army doesn’t usually supply that are (in) short demand. So, we were able to gather that stuff up and make our life more livable. And also some equipment and tools that we used in our radio work.
Mary Rasa: Since it was pretty closed, were they starting to get families back into the officers’ quarters?
Alfred Kucinski: At that time, no. Not really, not that I can recall. I don’t think there were any, you know. And they did have a Coast Guard Station up at the edge of the hook. And they were there when we got there, but they were a separate entity.
Mary Rasa: So, it was pretty desolate then?
Alfred Kucinski: Yes it was. As a matter of fact, being young G.I.’s we had (been) going through all those caves where all those coastal guns were or would be. And you know, really, it was kind of eerie and very interesting part of history that we gathered.
Mary Rasa: Did you ever go to New York while you were out here?
Alfred Kucinski: No. I did not. No, no.
Mary Rasa: Was this was a fun or boring place to be stationed?
Alfred Kucinski: It was a good place. It was acceptable. We used to take a ride over to Keansburg. You know, to the beach over there to the amusements that they had. And it was good duty as far as that was concerned.
Mary Rasa: Anything especially humorous occur while you were here?
Alfred Kucinski: Humorous. Not really. I’m trying to think. I can’t think of anything humorous.
Mary Rasa: Anything stand out in your mind?
Alfred Kucinski: No. It was pretty basic. You know, do your job and hoping that you get out of the Army as quickly as possible. That was the thing. And you know, after over three years, going into the Army four years, you know, you say, “I’ve had enough of this. Let me go home and grow up and get married and settle down.”
Mary Rasa: Do you keep in touch with anyone?
Alfred Kucinski: No. Not, no, I haven’t. You know part of the problem was when they first came up from, I think they were at Fort Bliss, our outfit came up to Fort Dix. I was inserted into the outfit. Most of those boys were from Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia and Mississippi and I was the only Yankee there at the time. They looked at me with a weary eye because I spoke funny. (laughter) And after a while they got some more guys in from the east coast and Philadelphia and things like that. But I had some friendships, but after we, after I got out and I went to school I didn’t have time for that because school was full time and I was finishing studying and it was time for me to get down and get serious with life.
Mary Rasa: Did you expect that you could potentially go to Korea or was that kind of?
Alfred Kucinski: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That was in my mind. As a matter of fact, I expected I would be going there. Why I didn’t, you know, surprised me. There was a lot of rumors that the outfit was going overseas, but it never happened. And I don’t know where they are now. I tried. I got on the website and looked up, tried to find out the history and where they went but I have been drawing blanks so far. I guess I haven’t got into the right button anyway.
Mary Rasa: Anything else you want to say?
Alfred Kucinski: No, well that’s about it. I mean, the Army was a good experience for me. It let me grow up. I went in as a kid, 17. I came out, I was 22. And you know, I put a lot of time in. I made a lot of friends the first time I was in. And the second time, I had acquaintances too. There were a couple of buddies we used to go out together, but after I got out we sort of lost track of each other. And that was it. But I tell you I wouldn’t exchange my Army experience for anything in the world. It really, you know, it really opened my eyes and made me grow up. Taught me some discipline and taught me how to shoot a rifle, which I never knew how to do before. But I never would shoot a 90 mm gun. That’s one thing, I don’t think I was strong enough to pull the lanyard to make the gun go off.
MR: Okay, well thank you for your time. I am going to turn the tape off.
End of Interview