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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Meranden Numkena]

And then she looked at me and then all of a sudden she started crying and then she hugged me and she's like thank you so much for like doing what you're doing and that was a really big thing.

I was like wow like what I'm doing is really impacting and that youth is very much important to highlight and make sure we're educating them and letting them know how much our culture means to not only us but everybody because they we want people to know we're here and that we're doing stuff to amplify our voices.

[Lakin Epaloose]

When I thought of the NPS I thought of everyone having like kind of like telling you not to do things.

Then they'll be like no don't do that no you can't do that no that's illegal.

But actually it's the opposite like the people of not just the Grand Canyon but also other Parks are working to provide those ways to practice culture on government land because of course like the land is that of the ancestors of all our people.

[Meranden Numkena]

Hello everyone, welcome back to season three of Grand Canyon Speaks. I'm Meranden.

[Lakin Epaloose]

And this is Lakin.

[Meranden Numkena]

We hope you appreciated the stories shared throughout season three. Lakin and I have been producing and managing Grand Canyon Speaks throughout our internship at the canyon however this marks the final episode of this season.

[Lakin Epaloose]

To wrap up season three we have an episode of our own where we share our internship experience with Rangers Dan and Brian. This interview was part of a festival that Meranden and I planned and hosted in celebration of Native American Heritage Month.

[Meranden Numkena]

We appreciate everyone for tuning in to this season as we highlighted indigenous athletes and coaches of the 11 tribes that connect to Grand Canyon.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Take a listen as Meranden and I talk about behind the scenes at the canyon and enjoy.

[Meranden Numkena]

I'm from Tuba City and Moenkopi which is about an hour away from here and I am an intern with Lakin at Desert View and it's been really cool.

I feel like one of the questions will tell why I'm here but yeah really excited to be doing this and share a lot of what we've done because we did a lot of cool stuff so happy you guys are here too and more people come in.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah I'm one of the interns here at Desert View well we are at the village but out at Desert View we do most of our work there our programming our Grand Canyon Speaks podcast editing.

Every now and then we'll come to the village to help out with performances or to work the desk or just to come hang out here but yeah I'm one of the interns I'm from Zuni.

[Ranger Dan]

Alright so this is this podcast has a specific focus and it is about your internship and what you have done in over a year here because you started in August of 2024 in our office and you've seen a couple generations of seasonals in that time frame supervisors even.

So you've been here quite a while but it all starts with one thing and that's an application to do this job and so our first question here is what about this internship made you want to apply for it?

[Lakin Epaloose]

I first found out about the internship through an organization in Zuni called Zuni Youth Enrichment Project. There's a program or an organization in Zuni that provides youth with opportunities to grow closer to their culture and practice their culture in many different ways and so I participated in a hike with them down to Phantom Ranch several years ago and then I kind of kept in close contact with them.

I was an art instructor for them so I taught an apprenticeship for watercolor students and after that I saw that they were sharing the opportunity to come out here as an intern at the Desert View office and it was kind of like a last minute decision it was like the night before the closing of the application and I don't know what came over me I just I just decided to do it but I think it was the best decision I've made in the past five years.

[Ranger Dan]

Very cool, very cool.

[Meranden Numkena]

So mine goes back to my first time coming to the canyon. I went on this trip with Talent Search with Northern Arizona University and they give students a chance to go like prepare for college so basically we went on a trip to Grand Canyon and the first thing we went to was headquarters because that used to be where like the visitor center was and people would go there first.

We parked there and we went to see the canyon for the first time and from that moment I knew I was like okay like when I saw the view I was like okay I want to grow old here and I want to work here so I pretty much worked my way to there to get there.

Another thing is my mom she always prioritized our education so she was like no matter what you guys do because I'm the oldest she's like I want all of you guys to go to college it doesn't matter where as long as you go get your education and when you have your bachelor's at least and then you can do whatever you want you can have a family kids whatever but she said as long as you get your education you can do whatever you want.

So I was like okay I'm going to college and growing up my mom went to ASU Arizona State University so I went there too because it was a really big thing in our family and also I got really homesick so I wanted to choose something that was close.

I knew I was going with the Grand Canyon trip I was going to go into something in that field so I majored in park sports and recreation management at ASU and then I also with that I knew I was going to work at the park.

I just didn't know exactly what the purpose was I knew I wanted to be a ranger like okay work with the public let them know who we are and stuff like that and then I started looking at stuff online and then I came across somebody who works here and I noticed how she was working with tribes that called the Grand Canyon home and that's actually Kelki that's here in front row.

She became a role model to me from that moment I saw her and online saying how the works that she's doing for the tribes and stuff like that so I knew I want to reach out to her and see how she got to where she was so I was able to talk with her and then she's kind of been a mentor there since then this was probably like my sophomore year in college so we kind of just talked back and forth about different opportunities and then she told me about this internship and I was like she's told me like you should apply they're a pretty cool team out in Desert View and I was like okay so same thing with Lakin a little bit, I kind of took a little while because I don't know what I'm going to do after I graduate from college and then I thought about the interview and then I was like okay we might as well just try it you never know like what if it you never know let's just do the interview.

And I did it and honestly it was like the best most perfect thing in the world like we just felt like everything clicked because I was talking with Brian and it's just like everything worked and I felt like I answers the questions like really passionately and I just knew in that moment like this is something that I want to do so and it's been working really good so that's how I heard about this opportunity .

[Ranger Brian]

It has been working really good this has been a pretty amazing year plus I kind of want to backtrack and ask Lakin because he specified that five-year time frame and like if there was a decision five and a half years ago that was better but I'm not going to put him on the spot I'm going to keep going.

You guys have had so many different experiences and done so many different things while you've been here.

I'm wondering like what are the things you're going to take away? What are one of the moments that you won't forget?

[Lakin Epaloose]

I feel like through this opportunity it gave me a greater perspective on how the tribes express their culture and how that's important and when it comes to sustaining their identity because each culture not just ones of the canyon but of Native America have their unique way of expressing who they are where they come from and how they want to cultivate that sense of culture and family.

So growing up in Zuni I knew a lot about Zuni I knew some Hopi but it gave me a better idea of how we can better manage the lands that we all share and lands that we have called home forever and so that that's the number one thing that this internship has provided me with, this a position to develop that knowledge and ways to share that knowledge and stewardship.

But besides that I would say working with youth more; my favorite part of the internship was going on the river and that gave me a lot of motivation to get back on the river and work with youth and provide them cultural knowledge so that they take care of land when they're visiting whether they're indigenous or non-indigenous so yeah.

[Meranden Numkena]

When I went to college I didn't really spend a lot of time at home and I would stay in Phoenix because I didn't have a way to come home. Sometimes it would have to be my mom and with that I felt like I kind of became like they call them a city native or urban native and I didn't really get to connect with my culture as much or go home for ceremonies and things like that.

So through this internship I feel like with being so close to home I'm able to go there go home more and then also the cultural demonstrators being able to talk to a lot of the Hopi ones they have told me like a lot of different things.

There's a lot of them that are really welcoming. I know sometimes some tend to be upset like you don't know what where you come from you don't you spent too much time in the city now you don't know anything but it's like there's people here that have welcomed me and told me like it's okay you can ask these questions there's always going to be some things you don't know you're not going to know everything.

So it's good to that you're asking these questions so I think that was one good thing is that they were welcoming and that made me understand like I need to learn my culture more so with that I've been asking those questions and also just learning about all the other cultures and tribes that have a connection to the canyon and understanding also through our presentations or performers or like what we have today just seeing how they celebrate and share this land.

Another is like the importance of the Havasupai because they're the main ones here that have the canyon as their home like they're the ones who are here and learning about how they're doing dealing with a lot of different stuff like that.

So just really learning about how the tribes connect to the canyon and also me connecting back to my culture.

[Ranger Brian]

Thanks Meranden and thanks Lakin and yeah you guys have gotten the chance to connect on so many different levels with this place and with the river and with youth and with all those different cultural demonstrators and learn so much from all of them. I'm curious if there's something that that you're thinking about from this internship that it taught you about yourself?

[Lakin Epaloose]

I feel like it taught me that we can manage money yeah and that we that we're able to utilize the resources of the National Park Service in a way that benefits not only us as a team but also the communities of those tribal nations.

When I say that I mean like we can bring out artists youth artists like the youth demonstrators we have outside or inside the visitor center we can bring out performers and connect with people not only in our communities but outside of our communities.

Like I was saying connecting with the other cultures and learning more about them and one thing it taught me was just to be just to keep an open mind when it comes to co-managing all of the resources that we share kind of like what I said earlier yeah.

[Meranden Numkena]

Growing up I like I mentioned I'm the oldest so I've always been the one that needs to take control of everything like I need to make sure my siblings are okay they're fed they're paid for like all this stuff and I kind of brought that to here and I've always felt like I need to be in charge or like I need to it has to go my way and that's a like a hard thing to admit but a hard and also a hard thing to understand and like put it through my mind like you're not the one in charge all the time.

There's a whole team that's working here so I think that's one of the biggest ones because I remember talking to Dan about it and he's like I don't know we just talked about it I was like oh yeah that's not good and like we worked through it though like okay you need to make sure you're passing on those certain things to do I guess to other people not just me myself so I think that was a hard thing I had to learn but it's also learning like there's a whole team you need to work together it's not just you and things like that I think it's a hard thing to admit but it was one thing that I really had to work on is like making sure everyone has a piece because that's it's not just me so I think that's probably one of the biggest things I learned.

[Ranger Brian]

Yeah I guess like when you care about something a lot right and you know you've been really invested with the work and when you care about something that much it can be hard to like hand it off to someone else because you feel that responsibility but then I guess when we bring other people in we can do more and so yeah that's awesome lesson.

[Ranger Dan]

So yeah there's a lot of learning going on a lot of perspectives have changed is what you're talking about already but this internship is focused on working with the public working with communities it's very public facing and this right now is actually your last biggest event that is public facing as well which is really cool and so I have a question here of how is your view of working in public service changed or working with the NPS changed throughout your internship if so like how is it how has it changed?

[Lakin Epaloose]

I realize that you'll get a lot of the same questions they'll ask you where the restroom's at but besides that we have an opportunity here to share our voice and our authentic perspective and I think that through that we can provide an authentic representation of our people.

When I thought of the NPS I thought of everyone having like kind of like telling you not to do things when they say that I mean like you have the NPS people here and the tribal people here and like tribal people tribal nations and people of those nations want to practice their culture on government land and then they'll be like no don't do that no you can't do that no that's illegal but actually it's the opposite.

Like the people of not just the Grand Canyon but also other parks are working to provide those ways to practice their culture on government land because of course like the land is that of the ancestors of all our people.

[Meranden Numkena]

I think it helped me fulfill the dream of being a park ranger like when I knew I want to come here I can I can easily say I accomplished the goal I had the moment I saw the canyon for the first time of being able to be that person in green and gray and talk to people and answer questions and a lot of them are repetitive but one thing that I learned too is that like a lot of questions are crazy to hear especially about us.

Like they're like it's just like movies where's the teepees where's the indians where's this and that and it's like it's funny I kind of laugh at it because I'm just like what's going on like why are we saying this but I mean that's just how people are seeing us without like us actually saying things they see the stereotypical stuff and that's really what drives me to keep doing this kind of stuff so people know how we actually live.

Like some people think we live outside still or we don't have cars or anything and I'm like I'm right here like I have a car I have a place to live and stuff like that and like we go to school so that's one thing I learned is how important our interpretation is whether it's about us or even just taking care of the canyon itself.

It's really really important and yeah that's one thing I really thought about is how other people think about us or talk about us and how important our presence is here behind the desk talking to people and saying like hey you're saying the wrong things let's correct it or let me show you this kind of information and teach you what's the correct way I guess.

[Ranger Brian]

Thanks Meranden. I think you guys both like I think you both really touched on a lot of the core of the work at Desert View which is bringing that authenticity and bringing those actual first voices directly to the visitor to give them the opportunity to learn to learn about things that they don't know and cultures that they don't know you know that's really the heart of the work that we do at Desert View and I feel like you've already kind of spoken to this question in this last answer but I'll give you the opportunity to kind of add to it is just you know.

What are some of the ways that you were able to bring your culture into the workplace into the agency or to the visitors?

[Lakin Epaloose]

I was able to do that through a lot of the programming that we did during the summer and I think that was of my one of the things I enjoyed the most was sharing that information and a lot of what I talked about was the elements of nature and how we connect to them through our Zuni culture how we identify them and why that's important for sustaining the values that create the foundation for our families back home.

And one example is like I would talk about the migration story of Zuni and how it originates in the Grand Canyon at Ribbon Falls and how that's connected to a lot of the ancestral sites throughout the southwest particularly the Four Corners states and how we carry that in our in our everyday lives whether it's through our art our agriculture our ceremonies like our dances all that is still carried on as it was a long time ago.

Programming like that I feel like that was one way I was able to educate people from my Zuni perspective and I think one cool program that I had was I'm talking about different birds and hunting because hunting is like a huge tradition for Zuni and so when we hunt we can hunt birds and a lot of the birds have different meanings some being like a moisture and water others being for like directions or strength.

And I'll like make bird calls like I can do a flicker.

Like so you hear flickers like that out in the forest but yeah it was cool like providing programs like that and getting reactions like that from people and just showing like that we still carry these traditions yeah.

[Meranden Numkena]

I would say a lot of it is just also I forgot to touch on this one is also what the culture demonstrators they taught me a lot of stuff about the canyon that I wasn't sure about or I yeah like I had questions about it but like one important thing is that I like to tell people although I live here at the canyon I can't actually go in it on my Hopi side because it can affect certain things for me.

So that was like a really important thing for me to learn and I feel like just telling them all these different things of how we need to respect each other and like sometimes there's been questions where it's a little too touchy so I make sure like hey you can ask certain things but not too far also like that's a big thing is just showing that respect if you're going to talk to us like be respectful of what you're asking because sometimes it can go a little further and I have people who like try to go deeper.

I'm like okay just hold on but yeah just making sure that respect is there and then also like I said like interpreting our culture into our programs so like sometimes I only did one pop-up and that was about like the snow we got.

So I would tell them like certain words in Hopi of what things were so that was cool to share with them and have them pronounce it so they know what it means and it was cool to have like different questions they ask me and they're actually interested in learning about who I am as a person..

[Ranger Dan]

What I'm hearing is there's a lot of education with the public but a lot of education for yourselves as well that you've gained in your time frame here and a lot of pride as well that I think both of you have started with but then also really expanded upon on with your work and we can see it especially towards the end here of what this means to you and I would like to like to ask about this internship it's a focus on indigenous voices and raising those voices inside the park.

Do you feel you have made an impact for indigenous voices here at the canyon?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah I feel like we definitely have and one specific group that I would like to focus on is the youth because of course they’re the future of our communities and our indigenous community as a whole.

Doing youth-based programming like not just this year but last year we had a youth art gallery that was one way we were able to amplify the voices of the youth through their art. Other ways were of course like the Grand Canyon Speaks we were able to highlight athletes in our native communities and the reason why we did that is athletes and athletics has a huge influence on the children of our nations.

[Meranden Numkena]

I'd say yes as well that we've made a big impact the podcast that one's been really cool to highlight indigenous voices and then they can share it on social media and everyone else hears it that way as well.

Another really cool one was what that trip I went on to Grand Canyon was with Talent Search and then that was like 2016 I think and it was really cool because this year that same trip happened again so I got to talk to the kids who went on the trip I went on and I was able to talk to them about like how I got here my kind of like my story of how I worked my way from that dream to being here now and after that I talked to them.

I told them about who I was and where I'm from and making sure I told them a lot of like like certain places because they were Hopi primarily Hopi and Navajo students so I was able to talk to them about certain words or they had questions about where I was from and after I was done talking with them they had the chance to look around at the Desert View Watchtower.

So we had them look around and then one Hopi girl came up to me and she was just saying like it's really cool that you work here and like I think one of my you might know one of my uncles he's a demonstrator and I was like oh yeah they've been here at the bottom of the tower and I've been able to talk to them and she's like yeah that's really cool.

Athen she looked at me and then all of a sudden she started crying and then she hugged me and she's like thank you so much for like doing what you're doing and that was a really big thing I was like wow like that's what I'm doing is really impacting and that youth is very much important to highlight and make sure we're educating them and letting them know how much our culture means to not only us but everybody because they we want people to know we're here and that we're doing stuff to amplify our voices so that was a really big thing of like knowing okay they're listening to me and the work I'm doing is important yeah.

[Ranger Brian]

The work that you both have done has been really impactful and you know you've taken on big projects and lots of responsibilities like you know Lakin and you mentioned managing money right you know for I think you guys managed about twenty thousand dollars for us thirty thousand dollars for a whole bunch of different events like that's a lot of responsibility in addition to all the logistics and things like that you know as you took on all these projects and accomplished all these things.

What's one of what's one of the skills that you developed in the internship that you'll be taking away with you?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Working under on dance supervision has helped me kind of learn how to work with a team more effectively because kind of similar to Meranden’s experience I was used to working by myself on a lot of projects whether it was like my art or things that I did in school and just to give people context I kind of came out of high school before I came into this internship even though the preferred qualifications was like a four-year degree but I was very passionate about the work I was doing and so that kind of led me into this position when I was like 19-20 and when I first came here I couldn't really drive a car because I wasn't old enough yet to be on the insurance.

But anyway working with a team and being able to put up events like this not just the interview we're having today but the entire festival and learning to work with Meranden and because me and Meranden were able to share ideas and develop those ideas as time went on and that happened right when we got here.

And right when we had our conversation with our supervisor at the time her name is Melissa Panter she was here a couple months before she left but yeah I think working with Meranden taught me a lot of how you can collaborate on big projects and have a greater outcome than you thought was possible and I feel like I can take that into the future when it comes to like projects as an artist so like fashion shows fashion design and collections things like that I feel like that's one way I can utilize that skill in a different field.

[Meranden Numkena]

I think the big thing is like working with us a team but another thing is just communication overall especially working with other tribes because I know even though we have 11 sometimes it's hard to get communicate to communicate to other ones and it's good if we have a good relationship with them.

So over the years we've been able to work with a lot of different I think I would say like at least five or six different tribes that call the canyon home but we are still trying to work with a bunch of others and just learning how to connect with them I know one big thing that kind of stopped us from doing that is outreach.

We couldn't travel so I feel like being able to connect with those tribes and also as a tribal member myself I would really like to see like the parks go to the to the reservations or wherever they're at to do a face-to-face kind of conversation so they know that we really want to work with them so I think that communication is really important.

And also like back what I said about working as a team it was really hard to work independent or really hard not to work independently and give things to other people to work on but being able to just talk it out and understand like we have a whole team.

You're not going to have to stress out over everything yourself like there's other people who want to help you and will make it easier so communication and working as a team are probably the biggest skills I'll take with me.

[Ranger Dan]

Those are very valuable skills that both of you have come across and yeah handling money is a big one too and like you've learned so much about this internship and what goes along with it you were you've been exposed to things that you never thought you would be learning about or be experiencing in this internship because we've had so much time we could do so many things and hopefully there's someone listening to this podcast who is in your shoes but over a year ago and they're trying to look for something to do.

And maybe they will apply for an Ancestral Lands internship with the park and if they do what kind of advice do you have for those future interns here at Grand Canyon?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Be prepared for no phone signal. We have bad cell service at Desert View and sometimes I try to like call people like or I'll try to call like Meranden and I can't the phone just goes dead.

So be prepared to kind of live a secluded life but also to be mindful. It gives you time to reflect. That seclusion gives you time to be by yourself and to reflect on your life where it's going and if you're stepping into an internship similar to ours understand that this is just like a big step to whatever's coming next so whether it's like becoming a ranger here at Grand Canyon or a different park or if it's like taking a step into a different aspiration you'll learn a lot and pick up a lot here at the park.

If you're going to be working here and also don't forget to go outside and like go for runs or hikes because I feel like that's one of the most special parts of living here is being outside.

[Meranden Numkena]

I think mine's pretty similar but if you're going to work with this exact team, Dan eats a lot of carrots so be ready for a lot of chewing of carrots also hot cheetos if you like hot cheetos we have a lot of snacks there so have a good have one good snack you're going to choose because we get that.

Yeah I think mine is also making sure you go outside because that's what me and Lakin ended up doing. We did a, me Lakin and Brian did a half marathon a couple weeks ago here at Grand Canyon so that was a really big accomplishment and we ran that so that was a cool thing to learn how to run in this higher elevation.

Also being careful of like your footing because those trails are really not like they're uneven so just learning that is really cool.

Also being on the watch for a lot of elk I've seen a lot of crazy things this is also to all of you guys, do not approach the elk so closely.

I’ve literally have seen someone like pet one and I was like that's really scary so yeah I think it's just also the animals don't touch them.

[Ranger Brian]

So our last question is kind of a good follow-up to what you're talking about with getting out and experiencing nature but before I ask you that question I want to just sort of like wrap this up about the internship and all the work you've done and I just want to take the opportunity that we have here in front of a group to really say thank you to both of you and to acknowledge all the work that you've done.

You've been here for over a year and the amount of work that you've accomplished the amount of good that you've done for the traditionally associated tribes as well as the park and the visitors is really an impressive list of things and accomplishments.

It's something that I hope you're both really proud of something that I'm really grateful to both of you for so I just want to say thank you.

So the last question that I have for you is about that idea of getting out connecting with nature experiencing the place using all of your senses to connect.

And so my question for you is what is a sound that you experience that you won't forget

[Lakin Epaloose]

I would say there's two I don't want to take one from Meranden and so I think I know which one you're going to talk about.

But my first one is when we went on a bird count for the Christmas bird count last year. We got to this point between Desert View and the village and we're kind of looking down into the canyon and I heard these birds and I was surprised to hear them but they're the Clark's nutcracker and in Zuni they're called Lohaya Bo’ya.

I was really surprised to hear those nutcrackers and they're if you can imagine them they're gray and they have a black wing and they're flying into the canyon and I've never seen that before.

I only see them like in high elevation forests so hearing them was my favorite noise.

I'm just going to take the other one.

When we went on the hike last month or I think it was last month or two months ago with the Desert View team we hiked into this canyon and we were hiking back out after like five miles and me and Dan were kind of.

No all of us were taking a rest under this little shade shaded area and then we heard this weird noise and then we got quiet and that was like meowing and then hissing and then a loud growl and all that at the same time and we looked kind of or we kind of waited and then we knew that it was a mountain lion and it was about a mile away and we're all like very excited and then well we were walking closer to the mountain lion because it was between us and our right and we're getting closer and it wouldn't stop.

And then I was like joking with the Meranden and I was like don't move and then I stepped and I stepped on this branch and it cracked and it made a loud crack and then we were laughing really hard but yeah I feel like that those two noises were pretty cool.

[Meranden Numkena]

He said we were excited to see it.

Me and Kelli were so scared because I'd never heard anything like that that was really cool but it was scary because we did it it was a long hike and pretty cool.

One time so with our ALCC we have or Ancestral Lands we have to have a monthly meeting with our site supervisor with ALCC so we were about to get ready for it and we usually I usually do mine on my computer and we share a webcam and one day we were going to I was going to I think we were going to do it together actually we were going go on a call and her name's Teiyanknei.

We're going to call Teiyanknei and I had it up on my computer and somehow the cord got like stuck on his big like computer thing and like it fell and it was really loud and like the whole like computer the computer itself I guess it like it really made it made a really loud sound and like we had to be on the call with Teiyanknei and I was trying to be serious.

And yeah it was a really loud sound and I was trying so hard not to laugh but like and I was trying to pick it up and thankfully the computer was okay but like we were worried about it and I was trying so hard not to laugh but that's probably one I thought of that's really funny

[Ranger Dan]

Thanks for sharing and that.

I got to say that mountain lion day that was that was a lot of fun yeah because we all heard it and then a bunch of us look at each other and we go “let's go find it let's go see this cat”.”

We did not see the cat but I think it really kind of encompasses memories in that last part and you have two months left here and we got a lot to do and it's hard to think about that the time is coming to an end and we've done so much in this time frame and so to kind of reiterate Brian it's been amazing having you both here and as you know I didn't really want to supervise anybody at any point in this part of my career but working with both of you for the few months before Melissa left I was like yeah I can I can supervise Lakin and Meranden.

Because you're doing so well and so much that you just needed a little bit of guidance honestly but you also helped me to learn how to supervise people and build new qualities that I can bring into the future with more people that work at Desert View as well so there's been a lot of teaching like for both of you to learn the NPS because it's a hard system to learn but that teaching has also come back to us especially me in the office as well so it's been amazing and we're really happy to do this Grand Canyon Speaks with you who knows if we need another part two Grand Canyon Speaks to continue conversation because I feel we could talk for an hour and a half so I want to thank you for this day this whole internship as well so thank you very much.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 12 Mar 2026 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/3583082D-B4AB-87C8-24D8E2156492FBA3.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-3589B1CD-D1BA-ABC3-AF05B49B6BEE4B90 Kelli Jones Speaks (BONUS) Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service Another bonus episode! This one features Kelli Jones, a Diné park ranger at Grand Canyon National Park. Her work consists of working with and inviting tribal members for programs, performances, and more to educate visitors and elevate the voices of those who call the Grand Canyon home. As this interview was conducted in March, which is Women’s History Month, she shares some heartfelt stories about the women in her life and how their support has helped her along the way. 2353 no full 11 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Kelli Jones]

I learned more about my cultural identity while working here from the affiliated tribes and my affiliated tribe and there's also great people who do work here that also empowers me to learn more about myself. So it's just learning from the people who are taking care of these places that is part of our ancestors and I thought that this is a place to be for sure.

[Meranden]

Hello, welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Lakin]

And this is Lakin.

[Meranden]

Although we have been highlighting some amazing athletes, we wanted to provide a second bonus episode for this season. March is Women's History Month so we decided to highlight two indigenous women park rangers who work at Grand Canyon National Park.

[Lakin]

This episode features Kelli Jones, a Diné Park ranger from Rock Point, Arizona. She talks about the different roles she fulfilled to get to where she is today and how she is bringing in more indigenous representation for the community and thousands of visitors of Grand Canyon.

[Meranden]

Kelli is actually one of the rangers we work with at Desert View and has provided us with guidance throughout our internships, especially working with tribal members.

[Lakin]

As we stick to the theme of Women's History Month, Kelli also shares some inspirational women in her life and the important roles they play in her culture.

[Meranden]

This was an emotional interview for me so just a fair warning to our listeners.

[Lakin]

Thank you for tuning in to season 3 and here is Kelli Jones.

[Kelli Jones]

(Introduces self in Navajo)

Hello, my relatives and my people. My name is Kelli Jones. I am the Tangle Clan, born for the Towering House people and this is who I am as a Navajo woman.

So yeah and I'm really excited to, you know, for this interview have Meranden know a little bit more about me. I think that there was a lot of things that once you started your internship we just kind of rolled into Native American Heritage Month so I'm really excited for this interview.

[Meranden]

Yeah, me too and if you guys didn't notice like in our clans, my second clan is Kiyaa'aanii and hers is Kiyaa'aanii so we're related like immediately once we met each other we knew like we're related which is really cool. So as we're talking about your experience living here in the in Arizona and working in the Park Service, what sparked your interest to work here and how long have you been an employee for?

[Kelli Jones]

Yeah, I actually have a slide that kind of just talks a little bit about kind of my my job and how I got here to Grand Canyon. I'm actually from Rock Point, Arizona which is a very small community in the middle of the Navajo Nation. All we have is just literally a gas station and I think our community is even smaller than Grand Canyon here which is interesting because the Grand Canyon is about two to three thousand people living here but it's smaller than that.

So I actually graduated from Fort Lewis College which is an amazing college where I met a lot of great indigenous people that are actually doing a lot in their communities as well. So Fort Lewis College is within the Four Corners region. It's actually in Durango, Colorado but it's a place where that college offers free tuition to Native Americans.

I took that advantage to you know pursue my college in that area and I didn't know what to do to be honest when I went right after high school. I was like what do I want to do? I want to become a dentist.

So I started going to biology and I did really bad in school with biology and I went to my advisor. I'm like this is not for me and she was like what what do you enjoy? And I was like I enjoy the outdoors.

I played volleyball and basketball so I was really active in my high school years. I am 5'10 so it's pretty tall Navajo to see in my community but I really enjoyed just being outdoors and that kind of pursued me into exercise science. I wanted to go into a field where I can help my community out fighting epidemic diseases such as diabetes, nutrition, you know getting back to our ancestral sovereign foods.

So that was kind of my goal when I went to college was actually focusing on getting the youth outdoors and something in that degree also helped me out to get an internship at Southwest Conservation Corps. I never knew anything about conservation corps in high school or even in college until one of my friends from college actually works for the Southwest Conservation Corps through an administration I guess you can say background and this Corps was actually having a hard time trying to find indigenous young adults to do internships at national parks. So he knew me and he was like I think you would love this job.

This job is at Mesa Verde National Park and I was like sure why not? So that kind of started me into opening the doors to conservation world and then just barely starting knowing anything. So that was just something that I learned and I thought that was a very cool experience but the challenge with Mesa Verde is it's a very heavily sacred place for the Diné people, the Navajo people.

It's a place where it's hard to have that cultural sensitivity to work at. So for me the challenge there was I couldn't be at these places where I should be working at. So at that time I was like kind of lost in knowing what I could do for interpretation education and that internship.

So basically my supervisor at that time was like you should just try to invite the local community out. You know in the community that we have a hard time bringing out to our park is the Ute Mountain Ute Reservation which is really just adjacent to that park. Kind of like the Navajo Nation and the Havasupai Nation and the Hualapai Nations are just surrounded by the National Park Service boundaries and I was like yeah I could try to do that and I thought that was a very challenging job.

It felt like a tribal liaisons job. I think yeah that was really hard yeah but yeah I guess that empowered me to want to do something that does focus on working in a place where I do feel like I can talk about you know our history here to the public. So I want to do more active interpretation to the public because that's something I've never done at Mesa Verde and that kind of pursued me into the internship here at Grand Canyon.

Word of mouth again people were like this is another opportunity if you want to pursue more in education. So that's something that drove me into wanting to work here to get that experience and that's the picture on to the right of in the red dress where I was during my internship at Desert View and I don't know I'm a very big community person. I have a big community value and I wanted to serve my tribe so I worked with my tribe for two years on the Navajo Nation at Office of Diné Youth which is kind of like a nonprofit program that is similar to Boys and Girls Club.

It's a after-school program for kids to come back to to learn cultural education to pursue outdoor education as well. So I was a program manager for that in Shiprock which is a northern part of the Navajo Nation and I really enjoyed that but you know some jobs have their challenges. It was during COVID so that was a bigger challenge with working with the tribe and especially for younger kids it was really hard and I ended up coming back here to Grand Canyon and applying for a seasonal job here so and that kind of was an easy place for me to be.

I love this place so went from a seasonal ranger to a permanent ranger and that's where I am today. Kind of a long path to get here.

[Meranden]

That's good though like you allowed that time to figure out what you really wanted. I think that's good when you know you try something out and you don't think it's a perfect fix so you try something new and it's perfect and it's exactly what you want to do and taking you to new heights and new experiences. So I'm glad you found something that you really want to do now so and as we as you mentioned like you went from all these internships and now a seasonal and then a permanent with the number of years you've been within the Park Service itself how do you feel you have served your indigenous community?

[Kelli Jones]

I feel like it all started at Mesa Verde working as an intern there and trying to bring in more indigenous representation from a local community level and basically that was all they told me they just want more representation from their local tribes and I'm like cool you know how am I gonna do that I have no idea. So I figured that you know going to the tribal nation which I'm not affiliated with you know I'm Diné and this is the Ute Mountain Ute reservation and that was a challenge itself just to introduce myself to that community letting them know what the goals are for the Park Service and then you know introducing myself as an indigenous woman and coming in letting them know that there is no representation there it does feel you know very lost out there without seeing my own community out there and that was my first time even learning about the Park Service so coming into the Park Service it felt like this place isn't for me because it felt very disconnected and I don't know what that disconnection was at that time so by reconnecting the local community you know to our ancestral land I figured that I would feel a sense a place that this is a right path for me so right when I started my my season here I also felt the same way how I felt at Mesa Verde and then felt that here at Grand Canyon I didn't see the community out here and found out that Grand Canyon community itself has about almost 40% of their community who are tribal representatives so I'm like okay well where are they you know we talk about tribal people and I'm over here like where's my community at and something that I realized like working with the community here at Grand Canyon and just really getting their stories understanding the community out here because when you come out to new places you just don't want to enter it and not understand the meaning behind it and the history I have learned from books and then learning from training through interpreting from other tribes but I think that also what was missing was okay I'm living here now and I want to understand what is this community about here at Grand Canyon and I didn't know that there was a school here a K through 12 school which is one of the only schools that within the Park Service that is within the Park Service boundaries which is really neat and that school is very diverse where we have a lot of kids from different backgrounds and predominantly tribal members as well so and I asked them if they you know feel represented here at Grand Canyon and we even did a school trip up to the rim and it was me and Kelkeana where we did ask like you know do you feel yourself represented here and they said no so and doing these photos was for Native American Heritage Month and asking our local community members to come out to the rim and take their pictures so that our social media and people who come out to visit Grand Canyon can see that there are Native representation here and either you don't see them in the front lines or you know but they are here taking care of this place and they live here and coming to realize that one of the families is actually a sixth generation and now her grandchild is going to be the seventh generation living here so you have these generations of family members still living here and working here at Grand Canyon which is really neat.

[Meranden]

Yeah it's really cool and like we mentioned we plan Native American Heritage Month and they usually have a community event that happens during that time and we've been able to meet a lot of community members who are indigenous who live here so it's really nice to meet them and then also hear about their experiences working here and I feel more at home when I see that they're also here with me as well.

So as we're speaking about the community with your work here I noticed that you're very community based and very passionate about supporting the indigenous youth. What are some projects that you've been able to fulfill not just only as a permanent but just overall your time in the Park Service?

[Kelli Jones]

Yeah I think that you know something that I really want to focus on and my priorities was the community itself here. Focusing on the kids here at the school, seeing what I could do with them to make themselves feel valued not just them but also their families and from the start of that actually been bringing out tribal I guess you can say performers and presenters from affiliated tribes here and around this region bringing them out to the school and just have the kids be inspired by their identity because of that cultural identity is a challenge you know even for me growing up it was you know my mom was actually going through different families and I didn't really know where my culture was at and all I was told when I was young was go to school get educated you know it's that's that survival technique I felt like and it was just like okay I went to school got my degree now what but I think that just making sure that people from this from this community and the kids themselves are proud of their identity their cultural identity that was my main focus is being proud of who they see you know they want to see themselves represented they never seen a native park ranger sometimes or they never seen themselves being valued in this space so I think that was the one of my goals here was trying to figure out what the kids need here at Grand Canyon but also bringing out people from our 11 affiliate tribes from our reservations and some of our kids from our reservations and our people are really great at educating and expressing their identity in different ways it's very diverse so I want that to be represented here to have that being expressed to the public because our cultures are not monolith so when we see one native person we think of oh we speak all the languages or we all live in teepees you know and I feel like it's exhausting to talk about that sometimes as being always in the front lines getting asked those questions where we can bring in people that educate about that too so I really enjoy that hearing from them and then expressing that to the public.

[Meranden]

Yeah and I think also our work that we do at Desert View is very indigenous based so we do a lot of bringing out those tribal members so like Kelli has really introduced me to that side of it of like performances that happen out here and she's in charge of that most of the time along with doing the outreach like we've been able to do a lot as interns to go to these tribal reservations for example we were just on the Hopi Day School and just go do some outreach about what we do and explain also the Grand Canyon Speaks what that platform does and then we were able to meet Billy Mills there which is really cool if you're not familiar with him he's an indigenous runner who won the one gold at the Olympics in the 10k race so that was really cool we've been able to learn a lot from Kelli just based on those trips and those performances and things like that.

[Kelli Jones]

And I forgot to also add that as a ranger was something that was really out of my comfort zone I went out to Washington to do a Christmas tree lighting so that was really neat it was during the time that Chuck Sams was was the head of our Department of Interior which is really neat and Deb Holland was also Secretary of Interior at that time so it's just nice to do that at the time there was that representation on leadership in our nation so I felt very like empowered to be part of that and just to continue on to keep doing what we're doing because of all that support from that level and then coming on down because they're also not my only my inspiration but they were also wanting to improve indigenous representation in the National Park Service so that was the Christmas tree lighting I don't think Meranden knows about this so it was just like that time Shania Twain was there and LL Cool J was the host of that show so I didn't really take a lot of pictures because I was so nervous trying to make sure I don't trip or fall going on stage or it was also really cold and windy but yeah there was it was a pretty good time it was around winter season so you have the own challenge itself with the environment and weather.

[Meranden]

Wow, yeah I didn't know this, that's really cool. And I know like that you're from here the Navajo Nation which is really close to where we are right now I just want to ask why did you choose Grand Canyon and what does it mean to you?

[Kelli Jones]

Yeah for me I think that Grand Canyon when I first came as a intern I already had a lot of support at Desert View from people who are working from the Conservancy that are not even working for the Park Service who were if you go to the watchtower you'll see our Conservancy staff who actually also works across from us the visitor park store so the Conservancy staff at Desert View they focus on hiring within the local community of Cameron and I thought that right when I started there was already some representation there from Desert View and her name was Caroline Wilson she's from a Cameron community and she just welcomed me you know I was she's this older lady she's like my mom's age and she just treated me like her daughter so I felt very like at home already there and then when I came here I just learned from the community itself here and the people who live here I just felt very like wow this is a you know this place is calling me and it's also makes me feel comfortable so I think it's just the community itself that made me feel like this place is special but also I learned more about my cultural identity while working here from the affiliated tribes and my affiliated tribe and there's also great people who do work here that also empowers me to learn more about myself so it's just learning from the people who are taking care of these places that is part of our ancestors and I thought that this is a place to be for sure it's only two hours from home too so I go home all the time on weekends and home I never left the Four Corners area in my whole life like my career and you know travel for work and stuff across everywhere but I never wanted to leave this Colorado Plateau area.

[Meranden]

Yeah I think we're very similar on that as well yeah because like that's also how like being here is really feels like home and once again like seeing all the tribal members who live here it does really bring that sense of community and wanting to feel more connected to your culture and so I really enjoy being here and being able to work with you on all the things that we've been able to do and as we mentioned this is the last day of March but this is also Women's History Month so as we have that and as an indigenous woman, what does Women's History Month mean to you?

[Kelli Jones]

Oh my gosh it's like it means a lot you know I think you know Women's History Month is it's it hits me differently for some reason part of it it's just not like performative because we have themes every month you know Women's History Month should be celebrated every month but it is a very sacred I guess you can say cultural significance for the Diné woman and part of that is celebration I think you know celebrating the resiliency of us indigenous women and what we go through you know recently the hardest thing that was really hard for me to kind of like celebrate this month was it's even hard for me to say and explain it in a way where people can understand it's just the injustices that indigenous women face we have missing murdered indigenous women and children so recently there was a case within Arizona that really hit hard and this has been happening for a very long time so it's just kind of hard to kind of think about Women's History Month this month and then knowing that this happened here in Arizona and where it's a 14 year old girl you know and that really hit me hard because the children are a future generation and you know we want to empower them to take on that role of their culture because in our culture we are leaders our deities gave us gave the woman a reason to give life so and that is to rematriate the land you know make sure that she's also heard and we take care of her it's just not you know human nature it's not human nature to you and that's something that we walk on every day so it's a very sacred thing and how we think about Women's History Month and then as well as for indigenous women but you also think about the challenges that we do face too that should be heard and expressed to the public.

[Meranden]

Yeah I agree. And I know you said that there's a lot of empowerment and meaning for Diné women and Diné is actually matriarchal so what are some important roles that the woman play in your culture?

[Kelli Jones]

Oh there's a lot. So one of the strong values in our culture focuses on family you know kinship make sure we have that family lineage to keep moving on for generations and then community I think that I think that's something I carry deep within my heart and I think that's something that is a very strong value in our culture and then not only that but we also have a kinaalda which is a ceremony when a girl becomes a woman we have a sacred ceremony and that's just you know that celebration of what the deities gave to changing women so it's part of that creation story that it's just something that is very important and part of that is that community and that value of family so and when we have those ceremonies our whole family comes together so you have those ceremonies and it brings that kinship back which is very important.

[Meranden]

Yeah and speaking of like that community and just coming here when I first got here I immediately felt welcomed when I first met you and along with like we mentioned GCC there's another woman besides Caroline who was her sister her name is Marian she's Diné as well and whenever I see her she's like my grandma to me she always says “hi Shi’yazh how are you doing?” and she hugs me and asked me how I'm doing and she's my neighbor so it's really nice that she's there and these women are very important to us and culturally they have a lot of significance so as we speak of these women who is and who are some strong women in your life and that have a very special meaning to you?

[Kelli Jones]

I have some pictures oh oh yeah so this is um so some of the people that inspire me from my family is obviously my nieces who are up there and my two nieces they kind of empower me to be the person that I am today and try to be their role model so I always look at them you know okay I'm auntie to them so that means I have to behave but also I just want to you know have them be just like empowered to kind of find their value in life so the people who kind of brought me to where I'm at are a few of so this is a picture of my grandmother this is a actual a yearbook from Chilocco Indian boarding school which was in Oklahoma so she was actually put into boarding school all the way from the Navajo Nation to Oklahoma and I look at this photo because it's that history that we don't know about and I never grew up learning about the boarding school and how the assimilation and genocide that our grandparents and great-grandparents and so forth have to face and just to get to where we're at today and just for me to be who I am so I look at what this photo represents and how strong and resilient you know my grandma had to go through just for me to be here you know and I think that emotional she is the one who never finished school there it's like a vocational school my grandparents met here at Chilocco which is funny because like my grandpa graduated and then they went back to the rez they built a home there and then they started doing some farming in the area but my grandmother always really just forced me to finish school and I was also raised by her until I was about I guess you can say eight years old my mom was pretty young she was like 25 when she had me so being born and raised by my grandparents until I was like almost 8 to 10 years old that's basically my mom you know and then my grandparents too is my dad so my dad left me so I didn't really have a dad but my grandpa and my uncles kind of fulfilled that role and basically and they were my father's too so I really appreciate you know them and all this history I think that you know has been erased and I think that's something that I love you know when I'm an interpreter here to kind of talk about this history it might be hard history but it's also showing the resiliency of what our people have gone through and how they survived and how we got to where we're at today so and then the other person so that's my grandparents when they came back to the res and then the other person is my mom and she's the one that is on the horse so my mom she is a single parent and she basically worked minimum very minimum wage when I was born and my grandmother told my mom that you know until you are have stability financially in your home your own home and I'm able to give back your daughter's you know so my mom really worked hard to kind of get that home and that roof over our heads and and you know I went to school in Kayenta because that's where she got her job and that's where I'm actually you know I a lot of the community members in Canton know me but I'm not really from Kayenta I'm actually from Rock Point so that's when I moved to Kayenta and Kayenta is a place where you probably drove through when you're going through Monument Valley or going through the Four Corners but yeah my mom is my inspiration because we had a dinosaur TV until like five years ago so she really valued everything that she had the most important thing that she put her financial stability to was obviously making sure there's food on our table the animals that she has and then the roof over our heads so anything within that otherwise like TV and other things were nothing to her and I was embarrassed you know when I was in high school because when where I was a I was athlete so we eat out all the time when we travel to places and I always had like my own sandwich in my sandwich bags and kind of like take my food to go but looking at it today like you know I really appreciate that from her because she just wanted me to kind of be here you know like understand that yeah like I just want you to finish school and then pursue something that you enjoy so I really appreciate that and then that's a picture of my grandma and me I'm in the little dress with this I was sitting on the saddle and then my little sister is the baby that my grandma's holding so yeah.

[Meranden]

Yeah hold on....

Yeah women are really important to us but yeah they're the reasons why we're here my mom's really important to me too and just the people I work with like I mentioned Marian and Kelli and Kelki like they mean a lot to us so we're really happy that they're here to guide us and continue to be our cheerleaders on the sideline let's get out of this little emotional side and I wanted to go into a fun little question which we like to ask during this podcast so if you could have any traditional food right now what would it be?

[Kelli Jones]

Oh my gosh I was just telling I can't I got back from home this past weekend in Oak Springs on my dad's side and I was kind of disappointed because I wanted to have some you know grilled only like meat yeah and we call it my end which is like sheep but I was actually craving Ach'íí' so Ach'íí' is a kind of, it's funny cuz like little kids will call it telephone wire I'll probably grow some of y'all out right now just kind of heads up and warning but it's um the sheep intestines wrapped with sheep fat and then you grill it so in our culture we eat everything from the sheep we don't waste anything we even eat the head and yeah so it's like it's a delicacy that we eat on our reservations at flea markets there's like different areas within our reservation and regions where they have flea markets in different towns and they sell it all the time to their community but yeah I've been craving that and you just wrap it with like tortilla or fry bread.

[Meranden]

Yeah that sounds really good, so yeah as we're wrapping up here and you know this is a really impactful and emotional conversation and just talking about women and being an indigenous woman there's so much to it and you'd work here at the Grand Canyon is there anything that you would like to leave here with the audience?

[Kelli Jones]

Yeah I think that I worked here and interpretation for almost five years I brought out a lot of challenges and as well as a lot of people don't understand a lot of our cultural worldviews from in our perspectives and it's very hard to be authentic sometimes you know and just be ourselves and explaining things but I think that I'd like to leave you with we have over 400 National Parks within the nation and each National Park has an important cultural and spiritual connection to tribes and I think it's just not knowing the land that you walk on and who it belongs to and how that connection is still there for the tribes but also knowing the history the history is really deep here at Grand Canyon you know we have we have a lot of dispossession that happened with our communities and that still is embedded with historical trauma and I think that is a challenge to kind of bring back those reconnections within communities today and you know a lot of people always ask why is there no tribal representation why this that history goes way back before Park Service boundaries were created it goes back into the photo I showed you with the boarding school you know a lot of that colonialism that did happen in our families and it still has affected families today and I think even the history here at Grand Canyon is bringing that light back into having our interpreters and our staff talk about it more and that is something I really appreciate you know working here and the goals that Grand Canyon does have is to bring back that reconciliation but not just using it in a performative way you know like land acknowledgement is something that is it performative or is it not performative and how can we repair just not checking off the list but also understanding and that's where allies come in you know people who are coming to visit these places they can you know challenge our public lands to bring in more stories and history that does focus on different backgrounds of people and where we can also see our younger generation see themselves so I think that's just something I'd like to leave you with you know and I think that I just really appreciate this and I wasn't too sure if I have any more photos I'm like really bad at the PowerPoint stuff but oh yeah it's a Grand Canyon so yeah I like this picture because it has that light shining on Grand Canyon so I kind of see Grand Canyon as you know bringing that spotlight out and also us as representing this place too so yeah.

[Meranden]

Well, thank you so much Kelli for being here if you give a round of applause.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy a special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music this recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park to learn more about Grand Canyon first voices visit www.nps.gov /GRCA here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 05 Mar 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/35539325-E18A-3745-BBD38DF15D05A1CC.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-355C1D90-C9B0-AD78-A0FC4372814834C6 Kelkiyana Yazzie Speaks (BONUS) Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service We’re excited to highlighted Kelkiyana Yazzie (Diné) who works at Grand Canyon National Park under the Tribal Affairs program. She started her career as an interpretive ranger at Navajo National Monument and now continues her efforts to provide Indigenous communities with resources through the National Park Service. Kelki also emphasizes the role that women fulfil in her culture and mentions several women who’ve inspired her journey. Join us as we celebrate Women’s History Month in this episode and enjoy! 2384 no full 10 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

I worked at Navajo National Monument, and that place honestly has my heart and soul, and it's actually my career goal to go back as superintendent of that park. But for the time being, this opportunity at Grand Canyon happened. It was actually the manager of the Interpretation Rangers.

He was just like, “we need to make this change here at Grand Canyon, and we think you would be a great fit to help us make that happen.”

[Lakin]

Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden]

And this is Meranden

[Lakin]

Thank you for listening to Season 3, it’s been great interviewing our Indigenous athletes, however we’d like to feature some bonus episodes that highlight Women’s History Month.

[Meranden]

In many Indigenous cultures of this region, matriarchy has been the foundation of our traditions and values that we continue to practice as we did long ago.

[Lakin]

With that being said, we interviewed Kelkiyana Yazzie who works at Grand Canyon National Park under the Tribal Affairs program.

[Meranden]

Kelki started her career as an interpretive ranger at Navajo National Monument near Shonto, Arizona and now continues her efforts to provide Indigenous communities with resources through the National Park Service.

[Lakin]

We’re excited to celebrate Women’s History Month and Kelki’s success in this episode. We hope you enjoy!

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

[Introduces self in Diné]

Hello everyone, my name is Kelkiyana. I go by Kelki for short.

I am the Tribal Program coordinator here at Grand Canyon National Park. So what that is, is it's the tribal liaison, one of the tribal liaisons who work with the [Grand Canyon National] Park’s 11 tribes, which Lakin introduced earlier. But yeah, I'm a member of the Navajo Nation.

My traditional greeting includes my clan. So, (Navajo clan), that means I am of the (speaks Navajo) clan. (Navajo word) translates to Folded Arm People.

I always hope that means a good thing. And then I'm born for (Navajo word), which is my dad's clan. That's to Reed people.

And that actually has Hopi origin down the line. So somewhere in my ancestors, I have Hopi ancestors, Hopi relatives, because that's where that clan originated. But yeah, that's a little bit about me, and we can continue on.

[Lakin]

Yeah, thank you for that introduction, Kelki. So what sparked your interest in the Park Service, and how long have you been an employee for?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah, so this coming year is actually going to be my ninth year with the National Park Service. I started out as an interpretive park ranger, meaning that I give programs for visitors.

And I previously worked at a small park called Navajo National Monument. I don't know if anyone here has heard of it or been there. It's a really small park on the Navajo Nation.

It protects three ancestral cliff-dwelling sites. And I'm actually a fourth-generation park ranger. So the photo behind us here is actually photos of my great-grandfathers, Floyd and Hubert Laughter.

Hubert was one of the first Navajo park rangers at that small park in the 1950s. So it's kind of astounding to me where that park became a park in 1909, but yet it took until the 1950s to hire local Native people in the Park Service. So yeah, he was one of the first Navajo park rangers.

Before that, he was working with the Navajo Nation Police. He's a veteran. And then his brother Floyd there, they're both medicine men, so they conduct ceremonies, healing ceremonies for our local community and our family.

So that's what really sparked my interest in the Park Service. I grew up on the Navajo Nation just five miles from this area. And growing up, I would be on the school bus, drive by it all the time, see all the visitors there.

And I'm just like, what are they doing? It's just a canyon and a bunch of old houses there. I was just like, why are they coming to visit this area? But after high school, I got to do Youth Conservation Corps, which is similar to what Meranden and Lakin are doing with their internships at Desert View. And that gave me the opportunity to work at this park.

And I just saw everyone come from all over the world and have this genuine interest and respect for the landscape, for our people, and our history. So that really reignited in myself my own connection to my culture, my connection to the land, and just started this lifelong passion I have for working with the Park Service. So that's how I ended up working with the park.

[Meranden]

Nice. That's really good. I think it really relates to why we're here as well.

We're here to show that kind of empowerment and be there for our tribes here. Like we mentioned, there's the 11 tribes. I'm Hopi and Navajo and Lakin is Zuni, so we're part of those 11 tribes.

And being able to represent and be here to show that we are here to take care of our land and things like that is really important. So with the number of years you've been here in the Park Service and the generations of park rangers in your family, how do you feel you have served your indigenous community?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah, so a big thing, I'm pretty sure everyone in this room and whoever is listening to the podcast have been to so many National Parks across the country. And when you think about it, you see all these stories, even just looking at these quotes on the wall.

They're all from non-Native people. And that's usually the dominant narrative that's told in these National Parks, is that it's coming from a voice that's newer than the voices that have been here for generations. So that's something that I really want to bring forward is we call it first voice interpretation, meaning that our stories are coming from us as Native people.

And I really want to help share that. So when I first came here to Grand Canyon in 2021, I started working as a ranger here in the village giving programs. And I talked to the other rangers, and I'm like, what's the indigenous programs look like here or the signs? And they're like, ah, it's non-existent.

And that was in 2021. And there's actually signs here in the park. This one actually just got removed back in 2022, where it talks about Native people in the past tense.

On the sign, it says prehistoric people used this trail to hunt and gather. But we're like, what? We're not prehistoric. Like, we're still here.

So that's just something I'm really proud of working with the Park Service today. And this role is to bring our voices to the forefront. And we're not in the past.

We're not past tense. Like, how these dominant narratives have existed. Like, there's that sign if you've been out to Hermit Road.

It's at Powell Memorial. And on that sign, it calls him the first explorer of the Grand Canyon. But we're like, what about the Native people that have been here way before the 1800s? So yeah, that's just a big thing I really want to push forward in helping represent our tribes here at the park.

Because it's our homelands. And it always will be.

[Lakin]

In your introduction, you did mention that you're part of the Tribal Affairs Program and we'd like to know more about the Tribal Affairs Program and what some projects and work you've done and accomplished.

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah, so the Tribal Affairs Program is fairly new. When you go to other National Parks, they really don't have a tribal liaison.

I actually work with two other people. Vincent, who's a member of the Hualapai Tribe, and Rising Buffalo, who's part Arapaho. And we're the only national park out of the 400-plus units in the country that has three people dedicated to tribal affairs.

And usually it's the park's anthropologists or their archaeologists, and it's a collateral duty for them. But here, our superintendent, our park manager, is really dedicated to tribal affairs. It's actually his number one priority as the manager of the park, is to bring these voices forward.

And so that's what the tribal program is, is that we work on various things. And just sharing our voices and our presence that has been here for generations. These are actually from the park's museum collection.

So there's some split twig figurines that have been found along the river corridor. Pottery. This is like the physical aspects of our presence in the canyon.

But we ourselves as tribal people, we have stories through oral history. A lot of tribes, we don't have a written language. If we do, it's fairly new.

So a lot of our stories and traditions are passed down through oral history, or through pottery, or pictographs and petroglyphs. Here throughout Grand Canyon, it's over 200 miles long, and there's so many ancestral sites and pictograph and petroglyph panels along the way. But a pictograph is painted onto a rock wall with a plant or mineral dye, and a petroglyph is etched into the rock wall with a sharp object.

But yeah, as a tribal program, we're really just trying to bring those voices forward and make it known that this canyon's a living landscape. And a big part of my job is just helping us connect, reconnect to the landscape. Because just like every national park, we do have that story of forced removal.

It happened back in the 1920s. The Park Service forcibly removed the Havasupai people from what's now known as Havasupai Gardens to make this a national park. So we're doing what we can to help reconnect that and welcome tribes back to this area, including supporting pilgrimages for ceremonial plant gathering, that the park is free for tribes because we shouldn't have to pay to access our homelands, supporting first voice interpretation.

Like I mentioned, the stories being told from Native people ourselves. This is a photo of some Havasupai working on the signage down at Havasupai Gardens from their own words. The cultural demonstration program is another example of that for people to share their crafts here.

The Grand Canyon Speaks program, which we're doing right now. This is a little different. We usually do it out at Desert View at the amphitheater there.

But it's a little chilly. Supporting tribes coming to the park and seeing what's in the museum collections. One of the curators, Colleen there, she was just like, wow, I didn't know that about this.

The tribes were talking about the different artifacts there and she was just learning so much new stuff. Supporting tribal internships. This is a photo from our bison.

If you didn't know, we have bison on the North Rim. So we supported live capture and transfer of bison to the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. Since this project started, we've helped transfer 382 bison to tribal lands.

Working with the Intertribal Working Group, of course. That's really important that this working group is made up of tribal community members. And we're the team that helps make it happen.

What they want to see in the park. So those are a couple of examples.

[Meranden]

That's more than a couple.

That's so cool. This might be an obvious question just based on how you answered this one. There's so many national parks that are around here.

You were able to work close to home and now you're at Grand Canyon. What made you choose Grand Canyon and what is the significance of Grand Canyon to you?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

That's a great question. Like I mentioned earlier, I worked at Navajo National Monument.

That place honestly has my heart and soul. It's actually my career goal to go back as superintendent of that park. But for the time being, this opportunity at Grand Canyon happened.

It was actually the manager of the interpretation rangers. He was just like, we need to make this change here at Grand Canyon. And we think you would be a great fit to help us make that happen.

So that's how I ended up here. It helped me develop in my career. Because at my old park, I was stuck as a seasonal park ranger.

But here I was able to get a permanent position. But my own connection to the Grand Canyon, Navajo and the Navajo culture. We have many, many stories that tie back to it.

I got to join a river trip with the Navajo Nation a couple years ago. And we were down in the canyon and saw old sheep campsites. Where Navajo families would be camping and tending to their livestock down there.

So yeah, we just have this long history and tie to the Grand Canyon. And of course the Colorado River itself. If you ever get an opportunity to go down there into the river, it's a whole other world.

And you can truly feel the spiritual presence down there. So that's how I connect to the Grand Canyon. Is spiritually living here. I've lived here for a couple years now. And I never get tired of that view. I always feel like I see it for the first time every time I look at it.

We're very, very blessed to have that here. And for us to be able to see it. And yeah, just be here in its presence.

[Lakin]

And we look forward to you fulfilling those aspirations. And continuing to inspire us and also the indigenous communities at large. So the next question is, as an Indigenous woman, what does Women's History Month mean to you?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah, so Women's History Month is very important to me.

Especially as a Navajo woman because our culture is very matrilineal. Meaning that a lot of our practices, our traditions, even where we live, it's all done through the female side. And that just shows how sacred and how vital and important our Navajo people hold females and women.

I introduced my clans at the beginning. And that's how we continue and pass on the clans. If I ever have kids in the future, my first clan that Folded Arm People one will pass down to them.

That's my mom's clan, that's my grandma's clan, and so on. So having something like Women's History Month, it really kind of shines like that spotlight on our stories as women and females. Because usually, we just do so much that people may not realize.

So I think that's why it's really important to me. And some of the most important people in my life are women. And I think it's really important to show that appreciation to us as females.

[Meranden]

Yeah, definitely. And speaking of those inspirational and very important women in your life, is there a number of them that mean a lot to you? And is there specific names that you wanted to mention on that?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah, so one being my mom. My mom's actually here today.

She's done so much. She's just the most hardworking person I know. And she's my favorite person who's just really taught me a lot.

And I really carry a lot with that with me. And she was diagnosed with cancer a couple years ago. And just seeing that challenge and seeing her go through that really gave me a lot of strength as well.

And another important person was my aunt Heather. Unfortunately, she lost her battle to colon cancer back in 2022. And yeah, it's just tough to see these health challenges come to our communities like this.

And yeah, see the strength and perseverance that people like my mom and my aunt Heather had. Other people would be my sister. Her name's Keline.

She just moved to San Diego. I already miss her. She used to live in Flagstaff, which is pretty close. And honestly, in my career-wise, this is the only picture I was able to include, but it's my mentor. Her name's Kalinda Blacksheep. She worked at my old park for over 20 years.

And she came here to Grand Canyon for a while. And now she's currently a superintendent, a park manager of Pipe Springs National Monument. I don't know if anyone's been there, but it's up north by Fredonia and that area at Kanab.

But yeah, it was just really cool to have a mentor. We really need that in this line of work, especially working for the federal government, you may realize. So challenges come with that line of work.

And having someone who looks like you and has your same similar lived experiences in this field of work is really important to just go to and lean on to be able to achieve, yeah, our career goals and where we would like to go. And then I would say another important person and people is our youth, like Meranden. She reached out to me a couple years ago through social media on Instagram when she was still a university student.

And she's just like, hey, I want to get a career at the Park Service. And, like, I really want to do, like, what you're doing is, like, telling these stories of Native people. So we developed a relationship, a friendship over that.

And I'm really, really proud to see her here at the Grand Canyon just, like, sending me a DM, a direct message over Instagram to this, like, where you get to do this interview and all these awesome programs and doing Native American Heritage Month and all those events. So, yeah.

[Meranden]

Yeah, I was going to say that, too.

It was just, like, a simple DM of, like, it was just, like, saying, like, hey, I'm a park my major was parks, recreation, and sports management. And I knew I wanted to be a park ranger. And then there was a post about Kelki that was, like, you got an award.

And I was like, okay, wait, I need to look up her name. So I looked you up on Google. And then I found your Insta.

And I DM’d you. And then I just told you, like, this is my passion. And I just want to be like you.

So then we kind of sparked this whole thing. And that's the whole thing of, like, scheduling this is, like, we came a long way. And we're here now.

And it's crazy, like, how just a simple thing like that can go to this. Like, when I first met her, like, I used to work for Grand Canyon Trust as an intern. And Jack was my supervisor.

And I met Kelki that way. And it's, like, I thought she was a celebrity when I first saw her. It was really, really cool. And I just want to thank mom for everything that you've done. And, like, you've raised her so well. And, like, she's literally the reason why I'm here today.

She's just inspired me so much. So I'm really grateful that you're here and you're able to talk to me. And this means a lot. So, yeah, I wanted to say that.

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Oh, thank you.

[Lakin]

And it's also great that we get to see you fulfill that leadership and mentor role for the next generation.

So we like to continue to see those kind of seeds and fruition develop over time. But now we like to get into a fun question.

So our question for you is, what's your favorite indigenous food?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

So, alright, has anyone been out towards Cameron? It's on the east side of the park. But if you haven't and if you have time, you can take the long way out of the park. And there's a little community called Cameron.

And there's a trading post there. And my favorite thing to get there is the Navajo beef stew and fry bread. So that's my favorite thing.

Like if I had like a last meal kind of thing, that would be it. Other than that, we have flea markets or swap meets or whatever you want to call it on the reservation. The one in Tuba City is every Friday.

So if you ever find yourself in the Tuba City area on Fridays, they have a lot of local vendors there selling roast mutton sandwiches. So it's a fry bread with roast mutton, potatoes, carrots, chili. It's so good.

But that would be my next favorite indigenous food.

[Meranden]

Nice. Yeah, we try to ask something like that every time because we're really big foodies.

So, yeah, it's always funny.

So we're getting to the end of this. We would like to open up to questions in just a little bit.

But as we wrap up here, is there anything that you would like to leave the audience with?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah, so just thank you to every single one of you who is here. And, of course, shout out to the people listening on the podcast. And, yeah, it's just really important.

This is so rare, but we're working really hard to not make it a rare occurrence. And we're really hoping to see this across the Park Service itself. If you've ever been to Glacier [National Park], they do have like a Native America Speaks program.

Yosemite [National Park] has cultural demonstrators. So we're really trying to make ourselves known. And I just really encourage everyone here, when you go to your next park, your next destination, even where you're coming from, just thinking about what indigenous knowledge or stories exist where you're at.

You know, even just thinking internationally, there might be some people from not in the United States here. I got to visit Ireland, Northern Ireland a couple years ago and the Giant's Causeway up in Northern Ireland. Like they have their own folktales about places like that.

So I just really encourage people to learn these old stories of these places, of where you're going or where you're from. And I actually have a short video here. I think it's like a minute and a half long.

But where Meranden and Lakin's coming from, it's a place called Desert View. It's where the Watchtower is. If you've been out there, you may have seen a lot of construction going on.

And what's happening is an intertribal welcome center. So you may have noticed while you've been visiting Grand Canyon, you go to the village where all the hotels are. You see Hopi House, but that's a gift shop.

And then we always get asked, like, where can we learn more about Native people? And we don't have a place for it. But anyway, the intertribal welcome center is going to be out at Desert View. It was supposed to debut like a couple years ago, but, you know, the pandemic happened.

And working with tribes, especially 11 of them, it's really hard to agree on one thing amongst ourselves. So we went through this process with every single 11 tribe, and everything that's there that you'll see was designed by them. And it was picked by them, and it was wanted by them.

So I really hope you get the chance to come back in the future. We're hoping for a ribbon cutting at the end of this year. But I also said that the same thing last year at this time.

But I think for sure we're finalizing the exhibit panels and everything. So if you get a chance to come back to the east side of the park, Desert View, you'll see our new tribal welcome center there. And it's one of the first of its kind in the entire National Park Service.

And we're, again, really hoping that more parks will follow suit. But yeah, we're still here, despite what that sign at the Bright Angel Trailhead used to say, calling us prehistoric. That's honestly, like, not true.

Like, we're here. We're people. And again, we've always had this connection to the landscape, and we continue to do so.

And we will, yeah, always be here and doing what we can to have our voices heard and our connections supported. And there's this quote from a Navajo woman I usually like to end with, where she says, the canyon's a sacred space. You only go there with prayers in your heart, purpose in your steps, and then you leave it the way you found it.

So I really hope everyone here has a safe and respectful visit. And, yeah, we usually just, like, treat this place like you would your own home or your home of a loved one, because it's our home. Ahéhee’, thank you.

[Meranden]

Thank you so much, Kelki. Before we do wrap everything up, we just want to ask the crowd and audience if anyone has any questions.

[Audience member]

Thank you.

I'd actually like to ask two quick questions. The first is I want to give a shout-out to Mesa Verde, which is right near where I live in southwest Colorado. And the question that I have that relates to that is Mesa Verde is known for its cliff dwellings.

And I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit about whether there were ever cliff dwellings here or whether there may still be and they're just not really available to the public. And then the other question, totally different subject, is you guys have been mostly talking about the National Park Service. We have the Bureau of Indian Affairs within the Department of Interior.

It supposedly interfaces with 574 nationally or federally recognized Indigenous Peoples groups. And I'm just wondering if you work with BIA or what you think of them and how that works and all that sort of stuff.

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah, thank you for your questions. So with the cliff dwelling one, yeah, there's a lot of ancestral sites along here. We actually have some that are up on the south rim here.

So there's one called Tusayan Archeological Site or Tusayan Ancestral Site. That's along the Desert View Drive. So that one is there.

And then, yeah, there's several alcoves in the canyon that have cliff dwelling sites. A popular one is called Nankoweap. So if you ever get to do a Colorado River trip, it's a popular hike that people go up to.

There are granaries up there. But yeah, these cliff dwellings, if you don't know what I'm talking about, are those like sandstone houses in the cliff. So a lot of them, people did live inside.

We categorized them as living rooms. There's granaries. There's kivas, which is a name for a ceremonial space.

And a lot of those sites we like to refrain from calling ruins or abandoned just because today, us as Native people, we still have living connections to them. Even though they're not physically occupied by people today, we still have a spiritual connection to them. And a lot of our tribal members who visit these sites, they usually leave prayers and offerings at these locations just to acknowledge where we come from and to honor that.

Because without our ancestors, without that space that helped our people survive, yeah, we wouldn't be here today. So it's really important we acknowledge our past. It's very, very much in the present for us.

So yeah, there's lots of cliff dwellings here. For your second question with BIA, yeah, it is part of the Department of Interior, which National Park Service is as well. My dad actually works for the BIA, who's here too.

And so as far as us directly, I don't think we work with BIA directly. There is that opportunity because our current Deputy Superintendent, Brian Drapeau, he used to work for BIA with the Education Department, working with tribal schools. And a goal of his is to have tribal schools, like students from there, come here to work in the park.

So that's a dream of his, and we really want to help make that happen. It doesn't have to be a BIA school. It could be any tribal college where we want to support people there and get them jobs and employment here in the park.

So there is definitely potential for that.

[Audience member]

When did you start working at the Grand Canyon?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah, I started working here, 2021? Gosh, these years are going by fast. So it's going to be four years.

Yeah. What grade are you in? You're in third grade? Did you go to preschool? So when you're in preschool, that's when I started working here.

[Audience member]

What would be the hardest part of your job?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

The hardest part, I would say is, that's a really good question.

There's a lot. But I think I'll go with, like I mentioned earlier, working with the different tribes. So, you know, we're all different people.

We have different beliefs and different ways we all grew up. And so say, so I'm Navajo, and then I'll pick on Lakin, Zuni. He's from another tribe called Zuni.

And say we are designing this medallion for the [Intertribal] Welcome Center that the video just showed. And then there's something in there with water, and Lakin was like, hey, I want it in this way, the Zuni design. But I'm Navajo, and I'm like, oh, I want it like Navajo design.

So that was a big complication in working with tribes, is that we want different things to help represent us. So I would say that that's one of our biggest challenges, working in this position. And then when I was a park ranger, like giving programs, it was answering the same question all the time.

Which is like, where's the bathroom? Where's Mather point? So, yeah. So thank you for your question.

[Audience member]

I had two questions.

One is, I know you mentioned in 2021, they started updating the language and even adding more Natives. And that's pretty recent. So what are the biggest obstacles in getting your voices into the forefront? And as a public or non-American indigenous, how can we help in getting your voices into the forefront?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

That's a really, really great question.

Yeah, I think one of our biggest challenges is just the bureaucratic process of the federal government. Things move at such a snail pace, honestly. Like that sign that I showed earlier, it got removed right before the Havasupai Gardens renaming ceremony in 2022.

And we wanted to replace it with another sign. But if you go there today, there's no sign at all. There's nothing there.

So I would say it's like the pacing of these projects we're trying to do. Which is understandable, because, you know, there's a lot that ties into it. But lately, we've been working a lot with the Grand Canyon Conservancy, who is the park's official nonprofit partner.

And they provide a lot of funding that the federal government can't. They have donors, and they actually got like a half a million dollars. I might be wrong, but like a lot of money, we'll say, to help fund indigenous-focused projects here in the park.

So that funding will really help us move projects along and get that accomplished. And then as yourself, as a visiting member of the public, to help with these efforts. So I did a research project, a thesis for my graduate program, where I got to interview indigenous people all the way south in Tucson, all the way up north to Montana, like across the board. And I asked them how they wanted to be represented in national parks. That's what my thesis was focused on.

And a common thing that they said back to me is like, we just want to be mentioned, or we just want to be asked about. So I think that would really help if, say, you go to another national park, asking what their tribes are. Like, whose homelands are these? And getting that conversation, just a regular part of, yeah, the conversation that our park rangers provide.

Making us a part of, yeah, everyday topics. And I think the more that the visitors want to learn about our native people, the more you're going to see that information about us out there. So asking those questions wherever you're going, I would say, is a really big help.

Another is learning from tribes themselves. We're surrounded by three tribal reservations, Havasupai. Everyone's heard of the Skywalk, right? The glass platform over the Grand Canyon.

That's actually run by the Hualapai tribe. So I would say supporting tribal tourism. So visiting Grand Canyon West.

You see those turquoise blue waterfalls in the Grand Canyon? That's the Havasupai tribe. They're the ones who issue those backpacking permits. So supporting that.

Navajo Nation, you've probably heard of Antelope Canyon and Monument Valley. Those are all Navajo tribal parks. So I would really encourage visiting those places.

I would say 99, if not 100 percent of the time, people giving those tours are from the area and are tribal members themselves. So yeah, that would be my advice.

[Audience member]

I have about two questions.

My first question is, where is the majority of the tribes in the Grand Canyon? Like in the north, west, south, or east?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Okay, yeah, that's a great question. Which state are you from?

[Audience member]

I'm from Washington, D.C.

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I was going to say, I was going to compare it to state size.

Washington, D.C. would be very tiny compared to this. But Arizona is a really big place. Did you go to Phoenix?

[Audience member]

Yeah, we flew into Phoenix.

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Okay, yeah. It was a long drive to get here, huh?

[Audience member]

Yeah.

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah.

So that area between Phoenix and us, that's where Native people were and still are today. But then after the place became a country and Native people were being relocated, that's where our modern-day reservations are. And then to our east, so going back towards where Washington, D.C. is, we have the Navajo Nation and the Hopi.

And then if you go towards New Mexico, there's Zuni. And then if you're looking at the Grand Canyon, say if you go tomorrow and you look across the canyon, there's the Paiutes. So there's different bands.

There's the Moapa Paiutes, Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, Kaibab, Las Vegas, San Juan Southern Paiute, who are all on that side across the canyon. So does that help? Does that make sense? Alright. But, yeah, that's where our tribes are today.

But we consider the entire Grand Canyon our home. And the Havasupai people actually live on the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Did you see how big it is? They actually live all the way at the bottom.

They don't have cars. What they do is either fly in by helicopter, or they hike, or they have little ATVs like four-tracks. But, yeah, there's a thriving community who lives at the bottom of the Grand Canyon today.

I think about 90 miles to the west of us is their reservation. So, yeah, that's where our Native people are today. So thank you for your question.

[Audience member]

And for my second question, do you guys have, like, any Native clothing?

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

Yeah. So that's what Lakin, Meranden, and myself are wearing. I'll give you a chance to answer that.

But with Navajo, a very popular thing we wear is turquoise. So turquoise is usually worn for protection for ourselves. And we usually wear some type of turquoise on us at all times because we never know when our time in the physical world is up because this helps with our passage to the next phase of life, which is in the spiritual world.

And then this is a squash blossom here. So this is very popular we worn with us. We have a concho belt.

This is just like a regular belt with more sterling silver and turquoise. Women, we usually wear a skirt. I'm wearing my National Park skirt today.

And then we have moccasins here that are usually made from deer, from the deer hide. So you probably might have seen some deer while you were in the park, but we use that to wear on our feet. But Meranden, I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about what you're wearing.

[Meranden]

Yeah, ours is a little similar. We usually wear dresses or skirts. And none of this stuff is just because we want to.

Everything has a meaning. So there's a certain reason why the red is on top and the green is here, why this is fringed like this, or the strings are a certain way like this, or why this one's out and this one's not. Everything has a meaning of why it's like that.

And we also have moccasins too. Mine are white, though. They're like fully white.

And then I have earrings. We usually wear earrings, necklaces, bracelets. And we also wear a lot of different kind of, not just turquoise, but a lot of different stones.

So I don't know if you want to say anything else, Lakin.

[Lakin]

Yeah, I'll just talk about my necklace because I didn't wear my full fit today. So, like I said, I'm from Zuni, and a big part of our jewelry is putting shells, seashells.

So we call them shodonne or shodo:we, which is plural, because a long time ago the rain priests would make a pilgrimage down to the Gulf of California, and they would collect these seashells. And they would put turquoise on top, and then the jet and mother of pearl, and these black and white lines. They can either resemble a rainbow or a pattern that resembles life and death, kind of that pattern.

It's popular among a lot of the Puebloan jewelry, such as Santo Domingo.

[Audience member]

So do you guys have a different guest every time?

[Meranden]

Yeah, we do. That's actually a great segway, because we actually have the next one with Kelli Jones, who is actually at the door over there.

We work with her at Desert View as well. So we have these Grand Canyon Speaks every now and then. We barely started with Kelki’s today.

It's the first one for the year. And then next week we have Kelli's. So, yeah, it's a good question.

Is there any more questions? Okay. So, yeah, thank you so much, Kelki, for being here today. We can give Kelki a round of applause.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 26 Feb 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/35166EEA-EF28-64BB-2E05255708265A65.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-3517CA43-EF83-D393-E8E86E327453FEA4 Sierra Klemme Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service Sierra Klemme grew up in Page, AZ and took her soccer endeavors to the University of Colorado which led her to working as an intern at Grand Canyon National Park. Outside of her internship, Sierra has been carving out her career as a river guide. Take a listen as she shares her journey from soccer athlete to river guide and we hope you enjoy! 2113 no full 9 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Sierra Klemme]

If something feels bigger than you, don't be afraid to really lean into it, to allow the intensity of those feelings to fully engulf you. You know, those feelings may be things you feel here at the Grand Canyon. I certainly do.

It is just something I wanted to say that being a part of something bigger than you is quite wonderful.

[Lakin]

Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden]

And this is Meranden.

[Lakin]

In this episode, Meranden had a chance to interview Sierra Klemme who was an intern at Grand Canyon National Park and continues to pursue her career as a river guide.

As a member of the Navajo Nation, she grew up in Page, Arizona just up the road from the canyon.

[Meranden]

During her time at Page high school, she played with the girls’ soccer team, however she suffered an injury that caused her to miss out on her junior year of soccer.

[Lakin]

Despite this injury, Sierra wasn't ready to give up yet, so she continued to play soccer at the University of Colorado and Colorado Springs.

[Meranden]

Take a listen as Sierra tells us about going from a soccer athlete to a river guide. We hope you enjoy.

[Sierra Klemme]

My name is Sierra Klemme. I'm a Diné woman from the Navajo Nation, and currently I am an intern with Grand Canyon National Park Fisheries Department, as well as a part-time river guide through the canyon. So this summer, I've been splitting my time between Page, Flagstaff, and the Colorado River.

[Meranden]

Nice.

Dang, that's a lot. Well, first of all, have you been to the canyon before this internship?

[Sierra Klemme]

I have, yes. I grew up nearby, and so I spent a lot of my childhood visiting the south rim of the Grand Canyon.

[Meranden]

Nice. But yeah, it's cool that you've been here before. So you mentioned Flagstaff and Page. You did actually grow up in Page, right?

[Sierra Klemme]

Yes, I did. Yeah, I grew up in Page, which is about an hour north of here. It borders Utah and the Navajo Reservation.

Page was established originally because of the construction of the Glen Canyon Dam, which creates the reservoir behind it, known as Lake Powell, and has the Colorado River running below.

[Meranden]

Nice, yeah. I didn't know the meaning behind it.

Yeah, that's cool, because I'm from Tuba City, and we've been there. We go there sometimes, and then we also went there for sports too.

And then speaking of sports, which is what we're here for today, is to talk about the meaning of sports towards Native communities. So through this podcast, we've been able to talk to a lot of different athletes that are from the 11 tribes who call the canyon home, and we've been able to talk to people who did basketball running, some things with equestrian [sports] or horses and things like that, and now we have you doing soccer.

So, would you like to talk a little bit about how you got into soccer or the inspiration behind it?

[Sierra Klemme]

Yeah, there's not a specific moment that I can pinpoint as being inspired when I first started playing soccer.

I think I was like five or six years old, and my parents honestly just signed me up for city league soccer, but it turns out I was naturally pretty good at it and really enjoyed it. So, as the years went on, my love for the sport grew as well as my skill set, and I later found myself playing for the Page High School soccer team, and that is where I found some inspiration for my later soccer career years. There was this girl named Brittany Tso, she was also a Navajo girl, and nobody was playing soccer like her.

It was, yeah, super cool to see her scoring goals left and right, always bringing up team mentality, and yeah, she really set a new standard of sort of what it meant for me to be a soccer player, and I thought it was really cool that this other Native girl was playing soccer, where most people on the reservation in this area play basketball during that season, and so yeah, it was sweet to see her and share that experience.

[Meranden]

Nice, yeah, and in Page, is there a pretty big Diné population there?

[Sierra Klemme]

Yeah, so Page is a little border town, and so a lot of students of Page High School come in from the reservation and surrounding areas, and so yeah, the primary student body is Indigenous youth.

[Meranden]

Nice, that's cool.

I can kind of relate with the soccer, like growing up, they used to have like a little, I forgot what it's called, but when we were smaller, we used to play soccer too, and I remember when we were really small, like when you play, like not a lot of kids know how to play super well, and they just like kick your shin guards like really hard.

I remember that, like getting kicked like really hard, and then I also got like, one time a ball hit me in the stomach really hard, and it's like, that really knocks the wind out of you.

[Sierra Klemme]

Right, yeah, I've had it all, kicked shins, black eyes.

[Meranden]

Really?

[Sierra Klemme]

Worth it, but yeah.

[Meranden]

Yeah, so like when you did play in high school, what were some of the teams that you played? Was it like usually on the reservation, or was it like out of, in the Valley or anything like that? Like who did you play against?

[Sierra Klemme]

It was mainly schools down in Flagstaff and the Phoenix area that were sort of on our same size level. There was not really any schools on the reservation that had girls’ soccer teams, specifically girls’ soccer teams, and so yeah, there was a lot of traveling to play this sport.

[Meranden]

Nice, yeah, and then like when you played soccer in high school, did you have any plans to play after high school?

[Sierra Klemme]

When I first started, I didn't know that I would want to play later on, but unfortunately in high school, I suffered a pretty serious knee injury, and so I only got to play three out of the four years of high school, and I kind of felt like I wasn't ready to be done yet, and so yeah, I did decide to pursue soccer after high school at a collegiate level.

However, school was more important to me, and so I chose school first and then decided to figure out how I could still play soccer, and I tried out for a team, didn't make it, and then I wound up playing for a club team at the University of Colorado in Colorado Springs, and so I played for about two years for them, and we would travel within Colorado playing other schools.

[Meranden]

Nice.

Is there anybody in your family who also played soccer?

[Sierra Klemme]

Not in my like immediate family, but I did have a cousin who played in high school as a defender, and you know, got a lot of accolades and everything, and also kind of inspired me and made me want to do that as well, and luckily I was a forward, a striker, and so we got to shine in our different areas.

[Meranden]

Nice.

[Sierra Klemme]

But yeah, it was pretty good.

[Meranden]

As someone that doesn't really understand soccer like positions, what does a forward do? Is it much like like basketball who like shoots, or like what's the, what does a forward do?

[Sierra Klemme]

Exactly, yeah, pretty much that. The forward is up at the top of the field trying to be available to score goals and everything.

[Meranden]

Nice, cool.

Much like how a forward is important to the soccer, the game of soccer, athletics plays a really important role to a lot of our Native communities. They've been able to help us shine and show that we are here and we can do just as much as anyone else could. What do athletics or sports mean to your Native community, like your own Page community, also your Diné community as well?

[Sierra Klemme]

So growing up in Page, there wasn't always a lot going on, and honestly sometimes sporting events were the highlights of the week, and so it was a unique opportunity to bring the community together, whether that was a basketball game, a football game, sometimes soccer games, not always, but yeah, it was a great way to be able to celebrate the athlete's individuality, but also support each other in coming together as a team and a community to sort of celebrate the joy, the happiness of motion, and so yeah, I think it really created a lot of deep relationships amongst people living their day-to-day lives together in a really bonded community way.

[Meranden]

Nice, yeah, I think it does bring a sense of community, allows you to meet a lot of different people, and also gives you the opportunity to try something new and pass it on to your next destination, like you brought it on to college, allowed you to meet more people I bet through playing club, so that's really cool to see how it is a highlight in your Page community.

Speaking of the importance of the sports and how it brings community, we've been able to highlight Indigenous athletes in sports, but also in a different way that you've been able to shine. You know, you said Page is near Lake Powell, which then is also connected to the Colorado River itself.

You have experience as a river guide, so you mentioned that you were or have been a river guide with the Wilderness River Adventures. Would you kind of like to speak more on what this experience has been like?

[Sierra Klemme]

Absolutely, yes, I have been a Grand Canyon river guide for about the past six years now. Yeah, but seven years ago, I actually got to go down the river for the very first time with two of my best friends from my childhood from Page, and from the minute that we set off on the trip, I knew it was somewhere that I really wanted to be, and so yeah, through guiding down in the Grand [Canyon], I've gotten to learn a better sense of myself through this wonderful experience getting to know the Grand Canyon.

[Meranden]

Nice, yeah. Are there many Indigenous river guides that you've met through this past seven, six years you've been doing this?

[Sierra Klemme]

What a great question. I'm so glad that you brought this up.

Well, yes, I'm a part of this really big guiding community down within the Grand Canyon. I'm a part of only a handful of other Native [American] river guides down within the canyon. There's not a super large representation of Indigenous perspectives down there.

[Meranden]

Yeah, I think there is a lot of Indigenous people who do go down on the river, like I know the other intern I work with, Lakin, he had the opportunity to go on the river.

There's also Grand Canyon Trust who has like youth river trips with Indigenous people, but they don't really have the [Native American] river guides there, so it's really cool that you're one of the few who are doing that, but I hope this number continues to grow.

However, by being one of the few, what does it mean to represent your tribe by being one of the few Native river guides?

[Sierra Klemme]

Yeah, first I want to acknowledge that you're totally right.

There is an ever-growing population of Indigenous people coming down the river, but those getting to work down there is still quite small, and I think what it means to me to be an Indigenous representative down there is that I get to create these narratives.

When I first started, I didn't realize how big of an impact it was of me just being down there was, and so now that years have gone on and I've learned more about it, I understand the importance of being down there, and oftentimes when we go to these ancestral sites or talk about ancient people, it's always referred to in the past, and so being able to be down there, I get to bring it back to the point that there are still 11 tribes that call this place home and hold this place so sacred and high up in their spirits, and that we are still here today and still experiencing the canyon in our own way.

Yeah, we've been able to, personally, I've been able to learn a lot about things that are sacred and also like things you can share, and then also just being able to emphasize to visitors how important it is, not just the river itself but the canyon as well, just like to take care of it like your own home.

[Meranden]

So you being able to do your work as an Indigenous river guide means a lot, and we're really grateful that we have you down there because you're able to share that knowledge to those people who might not know it, and like they'll be able to share it with whoever they encounter who may be going down to the river as well.

I know there's also seminars that these different river companies do to make sure that whoever's on the river also acknowledge that this is really sacred to us and there's places they shouldn't go to, so that's really important for them to share, and I'm sure you do that as well, which once again is really, really good that you do that for us.

Is there any like really good highlights from being on the river that you would like to share, like any silly moments or any sites you've been to or yeah, just anything down in the river that you like to highlight that you want to share about the river?

[Sierra Klemme]

Gosh, where do I begin? There's so many things down there that have brought so many good memories, tough memories too, but all in all creating such great experiences.

Earlier this year through my internship, it's a different sort of trip than I've become accustomed to with the day-to-day guiding and everything.

We got to spend some time, we get to stop and spend time in areas for a few days, and so I got to spend a couple hours at Shinumo Creek and enjoy the pool at the bottom of this beautiful little waterfall created by a chalk stone in the wall, and yeah, it was so wonderful just to watch the different shades of the sun as it went over and where the light was and how the temperature of the pool changed. It was quite special to be able to watch the canyon change in those small ways.

[Meranden]

Yeah, that's cool. This isn't podcast related, but I have an evening program similar to this, and I do a segment about the river, and it talks about the Humpback Chub, and it's just talking about like their different tributaries, and I remember hearing Shinumo Creek, but yeah, that's really cool.

I unfortunately can't go in the river because as a Hopi lady you're not allowed to go down there, so it's really cool that you are fortunate to be able to go down there.

Same with Kelli. She is going tomorrow, and then she'll be on the river for a couple days, so it's really nice that you guys are able to do that and then share your knowledge, but anyways, back to this. Yeah, it's really cool, and you mentioned your internship.

That's something that you're doing right now, and you work as an intern at the Grand Canyon. What does your work entail?

[Sierra Klemme]

So this summer I am interning for the fisheries department at the Grand Canyon National Park, and the internship came up so seamlessly. It was an opportunity I couldn't pass up, and so I, yeah, like I said, I'm working with the fisheries department with several different project leads who each have slightly different objectives, but their overarching goal is to restore native fish back into the ecosystem, into the river ecosystem.

You mentioned before, yeah, the native fish, the Humpback Chub, and that is one specific species that is really at the top of the priority list for these restoration efforts, and over the past couple years with these efforts, the Humpback Chub has actually been declassified from endangered to just threatened, and so yeah, as my degree was in hydrology and ecological restoration, and so I was really excited to come be a part of restoration efforts that were truly making a positive difference down within the Grand Canyon.

[Meranden]

Nice. What have been some of your favorite projects so far with this internship?

[Sierra Klemme]

So far I've been really excited to be a part of the Rapid Response Initiative, which was a project created after they found smallmouth bass within the river corridor.

Yeah, smallmouth bass is an extremely aggressive, invasive fish, and the reservoir levels were so low a few years ago that the water, the temperature of the river really warmed up quite significantly that these fish were able to come through the dam and live and just create all sorts of havoc on these native fish populations, and so there was a response to monitor and, you know, kind of eliminate these smallmouth bass, and so the project's working primarily in the first 10 miles.

The Grand Canyon [National] Park is working the first 10 miles, and then Glen Canyon National, or Glen Canyon is working from Lees Ferry up to the dam, and so yeah, we use different fishing methods to capture these fish. So that has been something I've been pretty stoked about, and I have a few other things, but yeah. It looks like you have something to say.

[Meranden]

Yeah, well this is, you can continue with the favorite projects, another one, but it's really cool because my program, we do talk about the smallmouth bass and like how bad it is. I just wanted to interrupt because of that, because I know like a lot of what you're saying, it's cool because you're like the, you're like the expert on it, and it's cool to hear like the research I'm doing on it and like telling the public is true, like you're saying everything that I'm saying, so that's really cool.

But yeah, the humpback chub, I like to highlight it and talk about it, and I also talked about like the water levels and then the smallmouth bass coming in, but yeah, it's just cool because I'm like, I'm saying all the right stuff.

[Sierra Klemme]

Spread the word. Reservoir levels are low. The water's getting warmer.

[Meranden]

Yeah, but besides that, is there any other favorite projects that you would like to highlight about your internship?

[Sierra Klemme]

This fall, there was supposed to be a project, the Bright Angel Creek invasive trout removal efforts, and so that's where a team goes into Bright Angel Creek from the North Rim and, you know, finds all these invasive trouts to remove, but unfortunately due to the fire on the North Rim and the unforeseen effects of it, that program has to go on pause for safety effects.

So yeah, I was looking forward to that, getting to spend time within the corridor, but overall, it's been really fun getting to go on these larger native fish monitoring trips down the whole river because, like I mentioned before, getting to spend time, spend more time in these different areas that I don't usually get to has been a personal favorite of mine.

[Meranden]

Yeah, it's really cool because you're one of the very tiny, tiny population who has been inside the river, so it's cool that you've been doing that, and how long is your internship for?

[Sierra Klemme]

This internship, I started in May [2025] and I will be going into December [2025].

Yeah, I've gotten to work in a few of my commercial river trips as well over the summer, which has allowed me to still progress in that career path as well, so it's been a, it's been a nice balance being able to advance in my scientific career as well as my boating career. [Meranden]

Yeah, as you mentioned, like, it's been able to help you dive into those kind of different places. This kind of takes me into the next question of how has this internship, you know, provided pathways to learn more about your culture or the 11 tribes that call the canyon home?

[Sierra Klemme]

Surprisingly, it has taught me a bit more about how the different tribes connect to specifically the fish within the ecosystem, and so they, the fisheries department communicates with the different tribes about beneficial uses of all of the invasive species that they're able to harvest.

And so once, like, specifically for the rainbow and brown trout are harvested, they send them to surrounding tribal communities, and they can be used for feasting or for ceremonial practices, and so, yeah, that was really interesting, or I should say a good experience to know that they are working with these tribes to further understand that the fish and the canyon and the people are all connected, that they're not, that they're not independent systems.

[Meranden]

Yeah, that's good to hear the way that things are being used, helping the canyon, the tribes, and the Park Service, like, they're all working together, which is really good.

[Sierra Klemme]

It is, it is really good, and also being a part of this internship, I've gotten to learn about the Tribal Affairs office, who have hosted several really cool events, like one earlier this week was a little ceremony to honor the loss of the North Rim, but also give some positive hope into moving forward, and then it's also connected me with you, Meranden, and what you're doing out here at Desert View and the different events and things that you are all hosting here, so it's been a great way to connect to the tribes and my culture in these ways.

[Meranden]

Yeah, I think the same too, like, being able to meet the Indigenous interns, because I felt like it's just been me and Lakin for quite a while, and having you on, and Derrick?

[Sierra Klemme]

Yes, my counterpart, Derrick.

[Meranden]

Yes, having both of you there, getting to talk with you guys and know where you're from, you're like, oh, that's over there, like, ask your clans and stuff like that, it's really cool to connect in that way, and, like, there's always older people who say, like, “We're so glad we have you, your youth there to be able to talk, and the work you're doing is really good, I just wish that more, there was more who came here,” so, like, I'm really happy to have met you and Derrick and seeing, like, the work you guys are doing, and we're not the only young ones here, so.

Yeah. It's nice that, yeah, we can, we can bond and stuff like that, and we have a few more things coming up, especially, like, this week later on, getting to visit the other national monuments in the area, so that'd be really cool.

But yeah, so that's awesome to hear about your internship, usually with this interview, we like to ask a fun question, so, as we're close to dinner time, well, I guess it is, like, dinner time, if you could have any indigenous food right now, what would it be?

[Sierra Klemme]

Girl. How long do we have? I'm just kidding. Being away from Page, I always miss a mutton sandwich. And yeah, on Saturdays, there's a little flea market, and the one stand we always go to makes these, like, blue corn tortillas, and oh my gosh, it is so good, so yeah, that is the main one I go for.

[Meranden]

Nice. Oh yeah, that's a really good one.

[Sierra Klemme]

Yeah, usually I'm traveling back into Page on Saturdays, and so I always have my dad get it.

[Meranden]

Yeah, nice. Yeah, I love that question, because we always get a lot of different ones, and it's really cool. So yeah, that's our fun question, and as we begin to sort of wrap up this interview now, and for our audience in person, and then those online listening in, what would you like to leave the audience with today?

[Sierra Klemme]

Gosh, you really kept the big questions till the end.

Well, I just want to say thank you, this has been a really great experience, and I guess I would like to share that if something feels bigger than you, don't be afraid to really lean into it, to allow the intensity of those feelings to fully engulf you, and you know, those feelings may be things you feel here at the Grand Canyon, I certainly do, but it is just something I wanted to say, that being a part of something bigger than you is quite wonderful.

[Meranden]

Nice, those are some great words. So we would like to see if there's any questions from the audience right now.

[audience member]

So you mentioned that you went down the river for the first time seven years ago, and it seems like the next year after you became a guide, so I'm curious what that experience was for you the first time you went down the river, and how your relationship with the canyon and the river have changed over time as you continue spending time with it?

[Sierra Klemme]

That's a really great question, because actually the experience has changed quite a bit. My first working trip was actually the summer of 2020, and yeah, exactly, and so the Grand Canyon National Park was actually closed for the majority of that summer, and so when it reopened I was lucky enough to secure two trips with my company, and you know, squeeze them in right before I went back to college, and so yeah, those first few trips were quite special, and you know, quite different than what it is now.

There was a lot of rules in play that aren't quite there anymore, but it was it was still so magical.

My first trip as a passenger, we at my company, we have a fiesta, like Mexican food night, and the lead guide on that trip, she had a whole costume bag, and so yeah, everybody dressed up, it was so fun, and so you know, I come back the next year on my first working trip, and I dress up for Mexican night, and I look at the trip lead, who's a person then, and I was like, oh, where, like, where's the costumes, like, you know, and he was like, I have no idea what you're talking about, and so since then I've always kind of, you know, tried to incorporate, reminding people, especially adults that come down, that it's a space to have fun, that it is, you know, and an experience to remember that we're still children at heart, and to laugh, and to be silly, and to not think so hard about what others are thinking of you, or what you're thinking of yourself, and I think that's just the magic of it all down there.

[Meranden]

That's a good one. I have one, but it's a little more vague, a little vague, but important.

As we have family here in the audience, I'm just curious of, like, do you have any role models or supporters who have helped you get to, get through, you know, your soccer, your river guiding, your internship now, who have been there for some of it or all of it?

Is there anyone that you, like, really would like to acknowledge that have helped you get to where you are today?

[Sierra Klemme]

So many people, and, you know, for each area that you mentioned, I have different people. I think, I think with my river guiding, my parents were somewhat of an inspiration in that they were entrepreneurs, and so, you know, it was a little bit out of the norm of other career paths, and so they were really encouraging to try this, something different, and to enjoy, because, yeah, it's not something I was super exposed to coming from such a small town, you know, you're really taught about, like, the main, or the main career paths of, like, doctor, teacher, that sort of thing, and nobody really talked about natural resources or working in the outdoor industry.

And so, yeah, they've supported me through a lot of these, you know, wild ambitions that I have, and with this internship of all of the Indigenous voices that I've met along the way, I would say I've been an inspiration. I go to this fall event, this fall conference called Women in Water, held by Planet Women, and, yeah, meeting women in the western water industry, hydrology specifically.

They have been really inspiring to just get involved, and to, you know, take up these spaces, and to bring perspective of Indigenous ways, but also to, you know, understand that I belong there as well.

[audience member]

With your experience as an Indigenous woman and a river guide, do you think it's possible to recreate in the canyon, and show it to people from around the world, and still honor the Indigenous tribes that have been here, and do you think there's anything that the park, and the people, and the river companies should be doing differently to make sure that people know and acknowledge all of the people who have been here, and come here before?

[Sierra Klemme]

As an Indigenous woman down in the canyon, and learning more and more about each of the different tribes, and how they are connected to the Grand Canyon, I have sort of navigated ways of sharing respectfully what I can, and what I feel is right about these different tribes, because there's some stories down there that are not mine to tell.

They are, you know, sacred to the tribes, such as Zuni and Hopi, with the Little Colorado, and Havasu [Creek & Falls], with the Havasupai people, but I still try to highlight their resilience living, and being around the Grand Canyon.

I think it's really important to, like I said, circle the conversation back to the modern-day Indigenous people down within the canyon, and in surrounding areas, that they're not just something of the past, and for more people to, you know, understand that their word choices matter, and so using respectful language when they are talking about these people that have called the canyon home for so long is an important way to shift personally.

As far as river companies as a whole in the Grand Canyon National Park System, I think always just creating spaces for them to be present in bigger opportunities is where things really have to start, and allowing them to bring these perspectives for all to understand, and really being open-minded and open-hearted about how we are connected to this place, and we need to treat it as so, and not act as it working, as it, as the Grand Canyon being something that works for us, that we need to live in better harmony with the canyon.

[Meranden]

Alright yeah, I'd like to thank Sierra for being here, for being our guest today.

We appreciate you for sharing your athletic journey, your river guiding, and also your internship. They're all very important and play really important roles to your life and all the people around you, so thank you so much for being here.

[Sierra Klemme]

Yeah, thank you so much, Meranden, and I think the rain has cleared up.

Let's go find some rainbows.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music.

This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca.

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 19 Feb 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/32CEDEFD-DBF8-88ED-BE7AFBB26BE53978.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-32D4983B-C9F5-3631-DDF654DD87BF0A95 Lynette Lewis Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service This episode features Lynette Lewis, a Diné woman who explains her involvement with NABI, the Native American Basketball Invitational. As a businesswoman of LRLewis LLC, she talks about how she is able to provide services to native athletes such as basketball tournaments and skills training. Rez ball is a huge component to her native community and she talks about the efforts she is doing to provide exposure to some very talented athletes. 1768 no full 8 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Lynette Lewis]

It's been definitely just amazing to see the growth, you know, to keep in contact after they're done when they become NABI alumni and to see their journey. Some of these kids get picked up by a college to play basketball and it's just awesome to see them representing not just NABI but, you know, their community, where they come from and just making a name for themselves.

[Lakin]

Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden]

And this is Meranden.

[Lakin]

Today's episode is about Lynette Lewis. She is Diné and speaks about her involvement with NABI, the Native American Basketball Invitational, from starting as a volunteer and making her way to becoming the tournament director.

[Meranden]

She also describes her experience as a business owner where she provides professional services for Native athletes.

[Lakin]

And reveals that she is working on a film highlighting a very successful girls basketball team on the Navajo Reservation.

[Meranden]

Thank you for tuning into today's episode and here is Lynette Lewis.

[Lynette Lewis]

First, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here and I like to first introduce myself in my Navajo Diné language. Hello everyone. (Introduces self in Navajo)

My name is Lynette Lewis. I am from the Bitterwater clan, born for the Mud clan, my maternal grandfathers of the Towering House clan and my paternal grandfathers of the Bear clan. And this is how I define myself as a Navajo woman.

[Ranger Eliana]

Awesome. Thank you for sharing that with us. I want to ask you, I heard it's your first time coming here to Grand Canyon.

What does it feel like to be here for the first time?

[Lynette Lewis]

It's overwhelming. It is my first time and I think stepping up to the rim, I am actually afraid of heights but this is actually not that bad. I think the first thing I said was it looks like a fake background but it's very beautiful.

Just to see nature and see this for the first time, it's amazing.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome and just so everyone listening knows, we are looking directly at the canyon right now and you did definitely say that the first time you stepped up to the rim. The canyon is really just so amazing and it's also such a significant place. So Grand Canyon is home to the 11 associated tribes but it also seems like one version of home for you might be on the basketball court or in your work with NABI.

Can you tell us about NABI, what it is and how you got started with it?

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah, so NABI is the Native American Basketball Invitational. It's been around for 22 years and it started off very, a very small tournament and has grown significantly over the past 20 years plus years. This past year, it is an event that happens every year in July in Phoenix, Arizona.

NABI does host Native American tribes from all over the country. It is a high school tournament and does take place over the course of four days and this year, there was 204 teams, boys and girls. There was 508 games total, played over four days and there were 160 plus tribal nations represented.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wow, that's a huge deal, especially like hearing about how NABI has grown over time. I remember listening to an interview you did a few years ago and I think you said maybe it was like 128 teams or something. It's so cool to hear how much and how quickly NABI has grown.

Another big achievement I heard of yours is that you were a commentator for NABI games on ESPN and I was curious what it means for you being an Indigenous woman on one of the largest sporting platforms in the world.

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah, so this was back I believe in 2021. We did have the opportunity to go live on ESPN plus which is a big accomplishment for NABI and I was one of several commentators. We were all an Indigenous broadcast and so that in itself was an accomplishment just representing our own tribes on this big platform just being female and in a sports world.

You really see that and now with women in sports, it's definitely growing and you know I just wanted to be that person for younger females to see and to know that you know they can also be in this position too.

[Ranger Eliana]

I remember in the office when I was thinking about what I wanted to ask you, one of my co-workers when I mentioned, oh she did say that you know she was a commentator on ESPN but I'm not sure if we have time for that question. He said definitely ask that you know make sure you ask that and also you know in regards to being a female in a male-dominated field, it's just so impressive and you're definitely a role model.

[Lynette Lewis]

Thank you.

[Ranger Eliana]

It's so awesome and I'm sure you're a role model for a lot of the youth as well. I do want to ask you because you mentioned you worked for NABI for 14 years and there's so many young people coming through NABI. Do you keep in touch with any of the players and how do you keep in touch with them?

[Lynette Lewis]

Yes, as you said 14 years. I have met a lot of players, kept in contact with a lot of coaches that have been coming every year with a new group of players. I think every player will at least play four years in NABI and then a new group of kids will come in but it's been definitely just amazing to see the growth you know to keep in contact after they're done when they become NABI alumni and to see their journey.

Some of these kids get picked up by a college to play basketball and it's just awesome to see them representing not just NABI but you know their community where they come from and just making a name for themselves. You rarely see Native American athletes playing at a college level so it's just great to see that you know that's also changing and we're seeing more representation in that too.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah and that's so cool that NABI has such a big role in highlighting young Native American athletes and helping to get them to the college level and that you're also still invested in the players after they come through NABI and seeing their growth over time and celebrating them. That's really awesome and I know that you also have grown a lot with NABI like you said 14 years. Could you tell me a little bit about like your time with NABI because I heard that you started as a volunteer and grew into your current position now you do a lot with the organization.

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah so it all started when I was still a student at Arizona State University and it was the summer time so I was on break and I needed something to do so knowing that NABI was coming up my sister and I we decided that we should volunteer and be part of it so that happened the first year and then I was actually asked to come back the following year to do an internship so it kind of started from there and then you know eventually went into a part-time position and then eventually full-time and then came to a point where I was I became the tournament director so this was I think this was my sixth year that just passed in 2025.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah you know that you started out as a volunteer and an intern and you've grown into such an important role with NABI you know I think it's really it's really good for young people to hear as well like I myself was an intern one year ago so it's inspiring to see how far you could go in your life and in your career.

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah and if I could add to that you know I always like to share my share this message to a lot of the youth is that it's important to volunteer it's important to take internships because it never know you never know where it's going to take you where you're going to end up and you know look at me and so I'm at a point where I was able to establish my own business and now I'm have the ability to work with other native communities and other organizations which has been great.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah that's so cool and such an important message for young people especially to hear it's like life could take you anywhere but you have to take those opportunities.

[Lynette Lewis]

Correct.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah that's awesome and I also think like NABI is such a great opportunity for young people because I know you told me that you have teams from all over the country and even some teams from abroad and all over the world and I'm curious what the experience is like for young players who come out to compete in NABI tournament.

[Lynette Lewis]

Aside from the competition I think it's all about bringing the kids together you know unify them and it's also an opportunity for them to meet other athletes from different parts of the world the other part you know from different tribes and also just to get to learn a different tribe's culture their you know traditions so it's you know educational too and I know a lot of athletes don't have the opportunity to travel even just out of state or to a big city so this is a great opportunity for them and just to meet other kids from different parts of the country from different communities.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah that's so cool and such a good learning experience and like cross-cultural connections for the kids. I want to ask you like maybe a personal question but did you travel much when you were growing up? I know you've traveled a lot now but when you were like maybe their age did did you have that experience traveling?

[Lynette Lewis]

Unfortunately I didn't. I'm from New Mexico so you know the nearest city was Albuquerque and you know that was big to me and then I think my first time going to traveling to California like that was major and because you know I never really had the opportunity and I just I knew when I had that first time traveling to another place I knew like I wanted to travel to more places outside of you know where I'm from. Now it's like with my work I have the opportunity to do so now and it's been amazing to travel to all these different places and you know see other communities.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah and there's like so much that you learn when you go somewhere that's different from the place that you grew up. It's really wonderful that you're kind of like facilitating and providing that opportunity for young people and you're also getting to learn yourself through your travels. I want to ask you kind of an unrelated random question because we always try to ask this fun question and that is what is your favorite native food?

[Lynette Lewis]

My favorite native food? Let's see so I am Navajo. Every time I go home I have to have mutton so roast mutton with green chili.

That's my go-to every time I go home. I mean there's a lot of other foods but I say you know that for sure.

[Ranger Eliana]

That sounds so good. I have to I've never actually had mutton and I also don't think I've ever had green chili. Can you describe for the listeners like what does it taste like or like what's green chili like?

[Lynette Lewis]

I don't know how to describe mutton. I've asked people before I know some people's it's not for everyone but green chili it's a well New Mexico they're known as the green chili capital of the world because you know of hatch green chili it's you know you can find it there in New Mexico. So I've grown up I feel like when we have dinner lunch doesn't matter when you're always have some sort of chili there that you eat with so I love spice I love chili so I know there's different temperature levels you know you can go mild you can go extra hot so it varies.

[Ranger Eliana]

Okay so Lakin is one of the interns here and he is from Zuni and when he comes home sometimes he brings fried chicken with chili and he let me try the chili sauce but it was red but whatever it was was really good.

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah red and green I say it's very similar we call it if you combine the two we call it Christmas.

[Ranger Eliana]

This is a good learning opportunity. I like that those are definitely the Christmas colors. That's awesome.

Now I'm just thinking about food and I'm trying to transition my brain back because I want to ask you now like kind of another question related to where you grew up because you told me that you you're in the process of making a film called Kirtland Dynasty and it's from the area where you grew up so I was wondering if you could tell us about the film what it's been like making the film and also why that story was important to you.

[Lynette Lewis]

So Kirtland Dynasty we're actually in post-production right now and we're in the process of finding investors to finish the film. It was a two-year project where we followed the girls basketball team over their season and I wanted to tell the story because they are currently 22 time state champions and I want to put it out there because it's unknown to hear well for me I felt it was normal because you know coming from a place where basketball is everything like having that many state championships was normal to hear you know from where I'm from but when I have met people told them about about it people are fairly shocked when I tell them how many state championships they've won and so basketball being huge in the Native community I definitely wanted to showcase this team because of the dynasty they created in Kirtland with their girls basketball program and you know there's talent there in the community and I say in all Native communities but you know in the specific community we've had several girls go on to play college basketball some who have who have made it to the D1 level so you know I want to tell their story and it's not a lot of people know about Kirtland or the program so this is my way of you know showing that and highlighting them and the place where I grew up.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah and it's really important to highlight that because like I definitely didn't know about that and you know it seems like there's so many young girls that give so much of themselves to this sport and and they're so successful and they really deserve recognition. So you mentioned how important basketball is to a lot of Native communities so I've heard that before and I've also heard like about "rez ball" and I'm not really familiar with like what basketball means to Native communities and also like how the style of basketball might be different. Could you tell me like a little bit about that?

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah so rez ball it is a style of play it's fast-paced a lot of people call it run and gun so you know make a basket you know you're just constantly running back and forth and and as far as basketball in the Native community I feel like it's like an outlet for a lot of young athletes because when you go to a lot of these tribal communities there's not much around as far as entertainment. So you know basketball being what it is when it comes to basketball season you know you see a lot of the community come together to watch a game to support their local team because I know for me living in New Mexico we never had any major sports teams in the area so basketball high school local high school teams were you know the teams we supported and I remember growing up I was fans of some of these players I looked up to some of these players and I wanted to play like these players and I wanted to be like them so with that I'm sure it's very similar everywhere else in different communities so I think it's extra special because you know we have our own way of life with our own type of basketball.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah and it's so cool how like even the style of the sport is unique to the community and it's also really cool how you say like the community comes out to support the team and how you looked up to them as a young person and I'm sure you have a lot of young people today who look up to you as well. I'm curious because you said res ball is more like fast-paced when you have the NABI tournaments is it like in rez ball style or the teams playing like fast-paced like that what's like what's the sport feel like when you have all these teams coming out for the NABI tournament?

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah I definitely see a lot of that res ball run and gun but I think now with this new generation of youth coming up you're starting to see a little transition of how basketball is being played you know you're seeing more organized basketball and you know with that too is one of the things that we lack in the native community is exposure. We don't have scouts college scouts coming out to the reservations to watch our kids play so that's why you know tournaments like NABI were created this was for the exposure so these kids can come to a place where they can be seen and so now that's becoming so big and you're seeing social media grow now we have we're at a point where NABI's having the games televised live like that's something new today and it's nice because you know back in back in my day when I was playing high school we had none of that we really didn't have social media social media was like just beginning and you know we weren't highlighted in that same way kids are now so I feel like now is the time to have our have our kids being seen and the opportunities for them to play at a higher level.

[Ranger Eliana]

It's definitely so important to have that exposure just to give people those opportunities and you mentioned how NABI games are now being streamed and that is so amazing. Could you tell me like a little bit about that process and also where listeners could watch NABI games?

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah so NABI does have their own network it's called NABI Network and I know this past year they work with Arizona Family where it was streamed live on their station I believe and I think it was also streamed live on YouTube but even after the games that are done they'll still be put on to NABI Network for people to still you know see those games even if they didn't see them back in July so I know NABI is definitely trying to expand and grow that live stream to a point where they can stream all games live so if you're looking at 508 games you know I think their goal is to stream all 508 games.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wow that's that would be like so awesome to be able to see them all and every player then I'm thinking about like every player and their families being able to look and say like that's me yeah that's super exciting and really important as well and you know we've talked a lot about NABI's growth and the important work that you're doing with NABI but I know that you also have your own business and I think that's really inspiring as well.

Could you tell us a little bit about your experience as a business owner?

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah so I never went to school to become a business owner um surprisingly I have a chemistry degree a bachelor in chemistry my career goal was to become a doctor and that totally changed once I got involved with NABI but my company started back November 2022 so I've had it for three years now but it's given me the opportunity to work with other organizations get into the community more and you know work within those communities because I feel now with my experience over the years I think I've come to a point where I can provide resources to the communities like come to them and provide my knowledge and any resources that I have come across and that's my my goal now with my work is to bring exposure and just support Native youth athletes especially in basketball which is my you know forte.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah it's so cool that like now you get to be the person that's coming to communities or providing resources or exposure it's really inspiring like even for me to see because I personally would love to support youth and so it's it's cool to see your journey how you've gotten to a point where you are the person providing that support. You mentioned going into different communities and I know that you've traveled to a lot of different tribal nations through your work so I wanted to ask you just about your experience traveling around the country traveling to different tribal nations and and what you've learned from that.

[Lynette Lewis]

Yeah as I said you know I've my goal was to travel and you know see the world I've only been outside of the country to Canada and I've actually been to Australia and Mexico those were the only three places I've been outside of the the U.S. but you know everyone wants to travel abroad but my goal is to visit as many tribal nations as possible because I want to learn about their culture and about you know where they come from because with my experience through NABI I have met so many people that have come from different nations and when I was in high school you know I didn't know there are that many tribal nations out there and like you said you know with my travel I've got an opportunity to travel to some of these communities and you know every place is very welcoming and it's just an honor to be there you know I've been to some places that I feel like were very similar to you know where I grew up and there's places that are totally different you go to a place like Florida or Washington because we're desert people and totally different but it's been awesome just to just even experience that a whole climate change.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yes it is crazy how different it is where you go because I'm from Washington so I know it's all rain there and here it's like well it's raining right now a little bit but it's mostly just dry and it's um there's so much you can learn from from going places and seeing how different the land is how different cultures are all the people you can meet where you go and I want to let you know you really inspire me especially hearing how you didn't travel much when you were younger but you wanted to and you've been able to like accomplish that and learn from that while also supporting young people it's it's just really inspiring and I'm sure there's a lot of young people out there who have been really touched by your work okay with that said I just want to ask if there's if there's anything you would like to leave the audience with?

[Lynette Lewis]

I think just going off of what I just said you know visiting some of these tribal nations if you're not from the community or if you're you know non-native I know there could be some hesitation and I know people want to learn but I would like the audience to know that a lot of these tribal communities are very welcoming a lot of places have museums and they have culture centers and those places were built for a reason was for people to come and visit their community to learn about their community to learn of their culture their traditions so you know best thing is to do a little research a lot of these tribes have their own website so definitely you know check out wherever you're going where you want to go see if they have a website that lists a museum a culture center and you know we as native people we're very open and very welcoming so you know take the initiative to learn about our culture.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music.

This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices visit www.nps.gov slash grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon.

These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 12 Feb 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/32A65E55-BDDD-DFA7-14E7504AD2AF2058.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-32B3C893-B6E7-8CBC-44E61B61180F47B0 Lakin Epaloose Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service Hunting wildlife has been practiced by Indigenous tribes for hundreds of years in this region and many of those traditions are still practiced today. Although many may see hunting as a sport, it is also regarded as spiritually and culturally significant for tribes and pueblos such as Zuni. In this episode, Lakin Epaloose discusses his hunting experience throughout the years and the traditional-ecological knowledge he’s picked up along the way. Take a listen to this episode and we hope you all enjoy! 2219 no full 7 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Lakin Epaloose]

I would say that; understand that a lot of the traditional practices that have taken place in this entire landscape, which we call home, those practices are still passed down today. So we still continue to hold the cultural values that have kept our families together and families that support one another. So if you guys have family, then try to connect with them in different ways.

Connect with the people you have close with you.

[Meranden]

Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. I'm Meranden

[Ranger Dan]

And this is Ranger Dan.

[Meranden]

Throughout season three, we've been highlighting sports and athletes from the 11 tribes that call the Grand Canyon home. However, this one is a bit different.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, this time I spoke with Lakin, who is an intern here at the Park, and we covered topics revolving around hunting as a sport, but more importantly, hunting as a tradition.

[Meranden]

Hunting has both evolved and sustained its cultural significance for many of our tribes throughout the region, and Lakin shares his perspective as a Zuni hunter.

[Ranger Dan]

We hope you enjoy this episode and stay tuned for more of season three.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Good evening, everyone.

My name is Lakin Epaloose. Ho’ Lakin Epaloose le'shinna. Ho’ Dowa:kwe deyan Suski:kwe a:wan cha’le. So Dowa:kwe is my clan, my first clan, and Suski:kwe is my second clan.

Dowa:kwe is Corn clan and Suski:kwe is Coyote clan. I'm from the Zuni Pueblo, and that is located four hours east on the road, or 252 miles going on this Highway 89 to I-40, Gallup you head south from Gallup you'll get there yeah I'm from Zuni.

Our Pueblo is pretty secluded and our reservation is located in this valley that sits between a mesa the mountains out east called Zuni mountains and some desert hills out to the west.

I've been an intern here for about it's about a year now but my previous term was served under Arizona Conservation Corps and I'm an intern under ALCC which is this right here Ancestral Lands Conservation Corps. Because of the work we did we were able to get extended for another year so we'll be here until January

[Ranger Dan]

So I want to also emphasize the work that Lakin is talking about is normally he's on this side of the microphone where I am, actually doing the interviews with other people here so Lakin and Meranden are in charge of the Grand Canyon Speaks podcast.

They've selected people that we do interview throughout the year here and our emphasis this year is actually focusing on sports and why they're so important to Indigenous communities that call the canyon home and hunting can kind of fit into these categories to a certain extent for outdoor recreation.

But yeah this is I think this is the first time you've been on the interviewee side of a program here but yeah I'm super excited because I've gotten to know Lakin for over a year now since he started in last August.

Yeah we've had a lot of conversations about a lot of different subjects and I think we've been able to identify that hunting is a really important topic especially for you because you go out a lot when you're back home and it's coming to the close of antelope season or pronghorn season too which I know you're hoping to bag one too.

So I want to kind of get started with your history with hunting and kind of when did you when were you first exposed to hunting actually out at Zuni?

[Lakin Epaloose]

So I would say I started hunting around like age like five or six.

I remember I would go like out with my dad and I remember the first time he let me shoot a gun which was a 22 rifle and yeah ever since like I've been hunting at that age I feel like I've picked up a lot of knowledge and skill because of my dad.

Because he would be the main one I would go hunting with and then later on I would go hunting with my friends and even I would have the opportunity to teach my friends how to hunt and hunt specific things like birds or big game or small game even.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah so is this like would you say it's kind of a generational thing where like you're learning from your dad, did he learn from his dad on how to go hunting and learn the landscape as well?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah he would tell me that he used to go hunting with his dad, specifically deer hunting and so that was one big game that they focused on and then later on he would learn how to hunt turkey.

And so after that he taught me how to hunt turkeys which is like I would say it's similar to hunting elk because when you're like hunting turkeys, especially in the spring, you're locating where they're roosting and with elk too, you're locating where they're bugling and where their herds are moving through.

So that's pretty much the same approach you take.

[Ranger Dan]

Okay.

How many different seasons do you have to go hunting? Because I know you're into bow hunting but also rifle as well but that takes you into and just long gun I should say and it takes you into a bunch of different animals that you do hunt throughout the year.

So how many times how many different animals do you think you go after a year.

[Lakin Epaloose]

You can go all year round but there's specific times during the year where hunting isn't allowed like during our fasting which occurs in the winter and during the summer. One of the purposes for fasting is to preserve our resources and to give the Earth a time to rest and the wildlife time to rest as well.

There's like specific rules when it comes to hunting birds in the summer.

So just to let y'all know and to let everyone know listening; Zuni tribal members are allowed to have feathers and hunt specific birds but during the summertime there are specific birds that come into this region, and they're known as migratory birds.

In Zuni they're also known as summer birds and the feathers and the birds themselves just represent the monsoon rains that start to come through the region during this time of year specifically like July through late August and during this time year those same birds come up from Central America and Mexico.

And it's understood that they travel with the rain so that's why they're important culturally because we rely on the rain for our dry land agricultural practices.

So we associate that with the wildlife that inhabit this region during this time year.

[Ranger Dan]

And so are you also saying that like Zuni has the ability to take different birds that other people don't have the ability to?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah, like I said majority of the birds that are used for cultural purposes are able to be harvested by tribal members.

There are other birds that you can't kill legally like eagles. You keep them as pets and that's the traditional way of taking their feathers. A long time ago they would hike up to cliff sides or into the mountains to look for the eagle nests and they'll find the egg and they'll take that back home and they'll take care of the eagle until it reaches its old age.

So the eagle becomes their pet. Same thing with the parrots and macaws. Before we reached Zuni during our migration, we used to inhabit different regions or locations in the southwest that are regarded as ancestral sites and in these ancestral sites we were connected with other Puebloan civilizations and cultures that ended up moving down into Mexico.

So we sustained those connections and one of those examples is we would trade feathers and the birds themselves the macaws and so our people took care of macaws and still do to this day.

And so if you're ever in Zuni, you might meet a family who has a macaw as their pet or an eagle.

So that's pretty cool to know but to go back to your question how many seasons there are, there's winter; so usually during the wintertime you'll find a lot of the birds like Clark's nutcrackers which are located in the Park at Grandview.

They're pretty cool when you get up to them they're these in Zuni they're called lohaya bo’ya because their head is gray and their feathers on their wings are black and they have a little white patch on their shoulder.

So there's that and there's other birds like flickers, woodpeckers, and bluebirds there's mountain bluebirds and the western bluebirds which kind of have a different color so I'll use you two as an example.

The feathers on the mountain bluebird are like that color. Western [bluebird] is more like that blue so that's pretty cool to know and I'm glad you guys wore those shirts.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah I think they planned it.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah. It was a planned thing.

Springtime is usually turkey hunting season, so turkeys will breed in the springtime and they will usually be like toms which are the mature turkeys or the gobblers.

They'll be with their hens and so you can use different types of turkey calls to lure the toms in and whenever you go turkey hunting you can also go bird hunting.

Summertime is like I mentioned a time to hunt the migratory birds like the Orioles or in Zuni they're called Ono’łikya and the different types of buntings like those lazuli buntings, indigo buntings, the grosbeaks and they're all very colorful birds the tanagers too western and summer.

Those are yellow red and the summer tanagers are all red. So yeah there's a bunch of different cool birds and each of those birds have unique Zuni names and also like one vision I have is to create a book that has all these names of the birds identified in Zuni and in English and also the ornithological terminology for each of the species.

So I feel like that information is important because it not only is significant in identifying birds but also the words themselves carry knowledge. For example there's this one bird that it's kind of leaving now because it's getting to the end of the summer but you might hear it every now and then it's called a violet-green swallow and on their back they're a very vibrant green and on their lower part of their back there it's a very vibrant purple

And in Zuni they're called Awisho: Seto which means “algae back” and the reason why algae is important is because it resembles places where bodies of water are located for example springs and ponds and those springs and ponds are usually used as places of offering or collecting water for cultural purposes.

So it's like you can connect the identification of a bird with specific locations that contain water or can contain other elements of nature that are culturally important.

[Ranger Dan]

And these birds also hang around these areas too they're skimming the water catching the insects that are off of them and so it's all connected into one location with this identification of the bird itself.

So yeah you're talking about knowledge. From one bird we just got that much knowledge.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yes exactly yeah and I'll go to the next season. That's fall season.

That can kind of be my favorite because that's when big game hunting usually opens. So like Dan mentioned earlier, I have a antelope archery tag to fill.

And for those who know about hunting and archery hunting antelope or pronghorn antelope is one of the hardest animals to hunt because not only do they have a good sense of smell like elk and deer but they're the fastest land mammal in North America and they have the eyesight almost as good as a hawk.

So they can see you I believe up to five miles away.

So usually with deer you do this technique called spot and stalk. You'll find a place where they're going to bed or rest in the shade and then you'll kind of creep around to make your way closer to it based on the wind direction.

So you go against the wind so that it won't catch your scent but the thing with pronghorn is they're usually located in vast open areas.

The wind can be tricky in those open areas and they have good eyesight and they bed down kind of like how cats do. If you guys know how cats loaf, that's how pronghorn kind of bed down and also they'll spot you if you walk standing straight up they'll spot you easily so you're out of luck if you mess up.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah

[Lakin Epaloose]

And they'll take off

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah it's a pretty quick animal.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah so usually when you see people hunting them with bows and with a bow you can get up to I would say anywhere between 30 and 60 yards is a good shot.

So that's about from here to Eliana back there that's about 30 yards or even like 25.

60 yards is about that bush halfway down that way so you kind of have that room to work with.

But yeah I do like hunting pronghorn it's a very challenging hunt but when you fulfill it that satisfaction is there. Deer hunting is also my favorite because they're kind of in between elk and antelope they're pretty tough to hunt but when you do get it, it’s a nice feeling.

And elk is also a fall animal that is hunted. It's funny because they're kind of stupid like I mean they're big and they'll come into pretty much anything especially if they're in the rut.

Like I can do an elk call right now I'll do one. That's how a cow elk sounds.

So like if you do that in the morning they'll bugle easily and that's during the fall time during their rut.

[Ranger Dan]

We got tp do that outside the apartment I want to hear this in the morning.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah yeah that's one of my favorite animals to hunt because when they are coming in you can hear them crashing through the trees and it gets your adrenaline going especially in the morning after you wake up.

So that's one cool thing to wake up to is the crashing and the bugling and they're very loud especially if you're in their area where there's like five bulls fighting that's one cool experience.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah yeah that's cool.

[Lakin Epaloose]

But if you do get one I'll say like when you're field dressing an elk it's it smells.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah like it just smells like elk pee.

[Ranger Dan]

That's nice. Yeah you got to be ready for that to get dirty when you're hunting especially dressing it out.

Yeah you've touched upon a couple different topics along the way describing the seasons and what's available for hunting and one of the things that I would like to kind of take it back to you is I mean you're talking about information that's one of it's a huge thing within Zuni culture where you can pick one thing and there's so much to talk about it because that one object carries so much information.

But if we start thinking about it, this is all passed down knowledge.

This is traditional knowledge so what is the the history of Zuni and hunting altogether and like how is it important within the culture?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah so hunting from the Zuni perspective isn't just harvesting game for the meat and for the parts but it also has a spiritual aspect.

So one example is when you're hunting you're not just hunting like I said for the meat you're also... there's like this saying that it's like if you're successful in your hunt you're not only blessed for bird hunting blessed for deer hunting you're not only blessed but it's also a way of bringing someone who passed away back home.

So someone in your family or in the like your ancestor they want to come home so that's why you get lucky with hunting is because there's some someone in your family that passed away or someone that is an ancestor that wants to come home and visit home.

So that's one of the spiritual connections is the spirits live through the animals so when we bring it back home we treat it as someone who's visiting our home that passed away.

[Ranger Dan]

Okay.

[Lakin Epaloose]

So that's one traditional aspect of hunting.

Also going way back before there were rifles and compound bows. Of course we will use traditional bows made out of cedar if not we would use trapping techniques but not necessarily to kill the animal but to harvest the parts for example the bird feathers. There's this technique or method of trapping where you will tie this like a strand either a hair strand or a rope and you would put bait in the middle and then you would let the bird land and once the bird lands you would pull that string and grab its leg or catch its legs.

Then you'll hold it with your hand and then pluck a couple of the feathers and you just want it to pluck enough to where the bird can continue to fly so that you have the feathers you need but the bird can still live.

[Ranger Dan]

It's taking what's necessary.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah exactly.

[Ranger Dan]

Not being greedy in a way.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah and so that's another philosophy that is taught and practiced for hunting in Zuni; is that you take what you need not more than you need because if you do end up taking more than you need or more than what's necessary you can end up creating bad luck for your own life or for someone you love.

So things can happen that are unwanted or drastic.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, it's this cascading effect that can affect the people, yeah.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah. So going to the historical aspect, like I said in our culture we teach that we migrated from Ribbon Falls, Grand Canyon to Zuni, New Mexico but along the way we stopped at several ancestral sites and one example is along the Colorado River if you follow it all the way up to Utah you'll get to the Moab area right south of Arches National Park.

So I went to Arches for ethnographic overview and one of the places we stopped at Arches I believe was called Courthouse Wash and so we hiked up into that little valley and we got to this cliff side and on the cliff side there was petroglyphs of people hunting and petroglyphs of different animals.

So once we saw that and we realized that there's all these different tracks in the valley for example bobcat which in Zuni is called Debi; deer tracks, mule deer tracks which is Na’le; some elk tracks and mountain lion tracks and bear tracks all in the area and even turkey tracks in that desert.

So there's Rio Grande turkeys in that desert and if you can imagine that desert it's iron rich dirt with some cottonwood trees so it's just red all around and it's kind of rare that you'll see turkeys but the turkeys in this area are known as Merriam's turkeys.

So there's different types of turkeys in this area but yeah so that's one fact that is connected to our historical connection with hunting.

[Ranger Dan]

And throughout time I mean you're not taking more than you need and when a need is there, it could also it could be for like sustenance for food to feed people but also there's that ceremonial side as well for the traditions that are still practiced to this very day.

And so I know like just from some of your paintings that I've seen like you've talked about like looking at what is represented in them on the figures and talking about like this is like a like a mallard feather here but so there's more than just a sustenance use for animals and they're incorporated into Zuni traditions right?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yes, so some symbolic aspects of hunting and animals and birds in general is the color and shape.

So one example is like you mentioned the mallard feathers. So on the bird there's two types of feathers on the wing: there's secondary and primary. So if you can imagine your arm like that the feathers that are on this tip right here they're known as primaries and they're the sharper feathers.

In Zuni they're called lats’umme:we; ts’umme means strong and lawe is feathers. So those are used for a specific purpose and secondary feathers are right under here if you can imagine under your arm or this undermost part of the bird wing those are more wide and so like I mentioned with the duck feather the duck feathers the secondary feathers of the duck especially the mallard they're purple.

So in Zuni they're called lak’ek’wi:we.

One of the meanings behind that color in that feather is when you look at the clouds these ones right here the cumulus clouds on the bottommost part they're very dark and dark blue and even sometimes dark purple so that's what the color of that feather it's connected to and what it means so yeah that's one example.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah I mean so it's really tied into the culture itself. Yeah there's a reason that this bird is harvested for the feathers there's a purpose for it that's a sacred use and it's an important use as well in traditions that exist in today.

And another aspect of like and I'm kind of my head's going all over the place I got so many things I can talk to you about we've only limited amount of time and like you're talking about like bringing a family member home and like it's to spend time with that person, that group of people once again.

But that's also feeding a family as well so what like beyond hunting we've got some ceremonial type uses as well but like how important is it that these hunted game build community around it, around that game itself?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah, from a cultural perspective there's religious fraternities or groups in the Zuni community that take care of a lot of the hunting obligations so that's one way it builds community and keeps the culture together and the values that formulate the culture and are responsible for the way the elders are connected to the youth.

From a personal or a familial perspective, I would say it has helped me bond with family members like my dad a lot more because that's one of the activities that me and him would do that I look back on the most.

Like we'll be hunting and he'll teach me a lot and we'll not only talk about hunting but also other things like I'll learn a lot about life when I'm out there with him.

I would also connect with my friends in different ways like I feel like the moments where I’ve laughed the most is out in the forest especially when they're doing stupid stuff.

Like one example is we're turkey hunting a couple years ago and we're sitting under a tree and there's a turkey gobbling and that was pretty hard that year because there's a lot of hunters around and the turkey was coming closer and then his legs started falling asleep and then he couldn't really move and he was complaining and it was coming closer.

I told him to be quiet and then we heard rustling going on to the left of us behind this line of trees.

We didn't know what it was later on we found out there was a black bear kind of hanging out in the area.

So there's a lot of different things going on at once when we were sitting there and then my other friend in the back he ended up farting really loud.

So that scared the turkey away, so yeah that's one of the funnier moments that I can look back on.

But yeah I got to teach my friends how to hunt specific cleans but also learn with them.

Like I had a friend his name was Ian and he passed away this year. I knew him for 12 years and one cool thing that I can remember about him is that we learned a bunch of different waterfowl together. So like it was funny this one time we were duck hunting and we shot this duck we thought it was a duck it was a grebe and if you don't know anything about grebes their feet look funny. So yeah.

[Ranger Dan]

Do they have like the big blue feet?

[Lakin Epaloose]

They do, some of them.

[Ranger Dan]

Okay.

[Lakin Epaloose]

[American] Coots can.

[Ranger Dan]

Oh that's the coots yeah, that's the coots

[Lakin Epaloose]

But they almost look like coots. So like things like that it's like I look back on and I have a lot of value for those moments

[Ranger Dan]

For sure yeah I know. I mean you're learning about people and you're learning about yourself and you're bonding in these moments and that's what helped build helps build the community at Zuni and like one of the things we always talk about when Zuni tribal members come out here is the super strong aspect of community within Zuni and it's really seen and it's kind of like a glow that everyone has around them when they come out and it's really apparent and once you start talking to everybody and it's just there.

I would say another aspect of it and this is kind of a tangent is like we know people by their official government names whereas everyone back home knows each other by nicknames and so we got to really piece together with everybody who comes out here.

Like oh you're talking about so-and-so and so-and-so and like “that's their real name?” “Yes.”

So the community is so strong everybody just knows one another which is a lot of fun to always hear and and talk about with everyone who comes out.

With the fun question we always have for the podcast, we're kind of getting into food a little bit here.

Normally we talk about like what's a favorite traditional food that would be something you would want right now but this is a little bit different I mean there's traditional foods associated with hunting but what would you go for in the game world what would you go for right now Lakin?

What would you want just a big turkey leg, like a renaissance fair type turkey leg?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Back strap on deer and antelope is good but a lot of people also prefer elk meat. With deer ribs you can't really get any meat off of them because they don't have a lot of meat on the ribs but back strap is good if you bake it or even grill it.

A traditional method of preparing deer meat or antelope meat, [or] elk meat is using a type of mint it's called frosted mint it grows near Zuni.

There's this mesa in Zuni called Dowa Yalanne which in Zuni means “Ancient mountain” and it might be confused with “Corn mountain.”

The reason why is because there's two types of Zuni language. There's kind of like it's not really new Zuni but there's definitely an older Zuni that is related to the language that was practiced when our ancestors were moving throughout this region.

So anyway that's what that word Dowa Yalanne comes from is ancient mountain and on the east side of that when the sun would come up, the frosted mint would grow along the hillsides and that grows out in Arches National Park too.

So you can pick that mint and in Zuni it's called dowa mats’a I don't know if I mentioned that I might have.

And you can cook your meat with that and it adds a really nice flavor to it. Yeah so like I said back strap with salt, pepper, paprika, cayenne pepper, garlic powder and green chili.

[Ranger Dan]

And green chilies? Yeah it's hatch green chili season right now everybody so take notes on this recipe that was just said here and I think you might want to have a good good meal.

Would be nice, yeah.

As a non hunter, but a person who's wanted to go hunting, oh man I think I would have to go for I don't know like I think elk is at the top and also like venison too.

When I lived in Alaska, everybody up there just hunted all the time. So Alaskan barbecues were amazing because you could have surf and turf but like you had everything off the hoof from moose to venison to mountain goat down to octopus, crab, shrimp everything.

Oh yeah those Alaskan barbecues, that's kind of what I'm remembering right now like mountain goat burgers that type of stuff; moose meatballs yeah there's good stuff, it’s good.

So it's a little different a little different but yeah I could definitely go for one of our pesky Elks around here. I think they'd be really tasty right now, yeah.

And to kind of round off some things here, there's a lot of satisfaction that I'm hearing within your voice when you're talking about hunting you're talking about the connections to your community.

What's kind of like the greatest sense of satisfaction that you get from this practice? Is it a physical, is it emotional, a cultural, a spiritual like if you feel like sharing for this question, what kind of satisfaction do you feel with this?

[Lakin Epaloose]

There's I guess three parts or three different kinds of satisfaction that I get from it. One is connecting with the people you are with when you're hunting and even if you're hunting by yourself you get to think a lot about like your own life and in a positive setting where there's a lot of light you're not stuck inside of a building or room.

You get to kind of explore different regions that you've never explored or even if you have, you get to revisit those and revisit old memories and thoughts and continue to ponder on those thoughts you didn't get to finish.

Yeah second aspect is you have time to connect with nature in different ways like identifying plants and learning different things about plants as well as different ways to hunt. Let's say a bird or a specific animal especially if you have a shortcoming you learn from that so you get to grow and learn in that wa.

Third one is when it comes down to actually taking the shot there's a lot of adrenaline going through your body and I think that's true with bow hunting because with rifle hunting you can just aim the gun and let it do its thing but with the bow you kind of have to like gauge the distance a little bit more precisely based on the wind too

And also hold your bow still, especially if the poundage is higher because you'll have to hold that heavy poundage for a lot longer time especially if the animal’s moving from one; let's say there's a bush in front of it moves and you have to wait for it to stand broadside.

Which broadside means basically like sideways and the reason why you want to shoot it from the angle is because you want to have an ethical kill and not a kill that makes the suffering longer.

So when it comes down to that moment and making sure all those different aspects of an ethical kill are complete, there's a lot of things that go into building up adrenaline and even anxiety if you're not prepared mentally but when you actually take the shot it's pretty cool it's like relieving.

I remember the my first archery kill was an elk. It was my third shot the first one was a 30-yard shot like from here to Eliana's bottle, maybe Eliana.

It was from here to Eliana and I messed up and I got in trouble because when I was practicing I was hitting the bullseye time and time again but when I shot it hit lower left and I was kind of like confused.

Second time was an 8 by 7 elk and that was one of the biggest I've seen and I kind of like stepped on something and it ran away or yeah I messed up.

Third chance was the hardest shot I've taken it was a 70 yard shot and I couldn't use the pins because the pins on the sight are 30, 40, 50 yards so I had to raise it above those pins to kind of gauge where it was going to land and so I took the 70 yard shot which is about from here to about that cedar, past that cedar tree sticking up from there.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah we're getting closer to the trading post now yeah with distance.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah it was across a big pond it was going down to drink water in the evening. It was my last day and I was about 15 or 16 years old and I shot.

I wasn't sure if I got it but we tracked it down and I ended up getting a double lung shot which is a full pass through which is what you want.

And so that was the best shot I've taken which was the hardest shot I've taken too.

[Ranger Dan]

It's a pretty good shot, yeah. Okay I like it.

If you could leave our guests here tonight with one last thing about kind of what we talked about tonight what would you like to leave with them?

[Lakin Epaloose]

I would say that understand that a lot of the traditional practices that have taken place in this entire landscape which we call home, those practices are still passed down today.

So we still continue to hold the cultural values that have kept our families together and families that support one another so if you guys have family then try to connect with them in different ways whether it's hiking or exploring new places or just having conversations about like what you're eating or like just different aspects of life.

I feel like that's one thing I want to leave with is connect with the people you have close with you.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah I like it. Thank you Lakin.

This has been fun, this has been a good time especially having you on the other side of the microphone now.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Thank you guys for coming.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah thank you everybody we're getting here to sunset so stay safe and enjoy.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon.

These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 05 Feb 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/70B19D9F-9960-0206-01E59488FDB8AA9B.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-7120C776-FAA8-A68C-6B17C88EBA25B883 Malia Ukestine Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service A small number of our Indigenous athletes are fortunate enough to showcase their talents at a collegiate level, and Malia Ukestine is one of those athletes! After overcoming an ACL injury in high school, she received a scholarship to play at Scottsdale Community College and shares this experience in this Speaks episode. Malia also describes details regarding traditional Zuni connections to Grand Canyon and how it’s carried on by today’s generation. Tune in to season 3 and enjoy this episode! 911 no full 6 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Malia Ukestine]

I feel like a lot of Native American people are overlooked just because of how small our community is, especially Zuni. So, me being in that positive light, it showed that we are resilient and that we are deserving of a chance to show our talents and abilities.

[Lakin]

Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden]

And this is Meranden.

[Lakin]

In this episode, I interviewed former Scottsdale Community College basketball athlete Malia Ukestine.

[Meranden]

Malia, who is from Zuni, described the journey of overcoming a torn ACL in high school to winning playoff games with her college team.

[Lakin]

She also discussed the traditional connections that the Zuni people have with Grand Canyon, namely Ribbon Falls and Whitmore Wash.

[Meranden]

Take a listen and enjoy.

[Malia Ukestine]

Keshi. Ho’ Malia Ukestine le’shinna. Hom annodi: Dowa:kwe deyan Donashi:kwe a:wan cha’le.

Hello, everyone. My name is Malia Ukestine, and my clans are Corn and child of a Badger. I am currently 22 years old, and I graduated with my Associates at Scottsdale Community College with my general studies.

And I am currently just working in the business industry. But yeah, I played basketball for two years at Scottsdale Community on a basketball scholarship.

[Lakin]

Nice. Is this your first time to the canyon?

[Malia Ukestine]

Well, I've been here when I was younger, but I don't really remember much. But yeah, it was very surreal. Like, I wasn't expecting it to be like this beautiful.

And overlooking, you can see all the rivers and stuff, which I wasn't expecting. So that was pretty cool.

[Lakin]

Yeah, right now the river is running red because of the sediments being washed into the Colorado. So yeah, I'm glad that you find this place special. But we also want to know more about what does the canyon mean to you? And also, what does it mean to Zuni?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, so the canyon is important to me and my people because it's where we originated from. There are petroglyphs, I believe, in the canyon where it tells how we came about and like the stories and our Zuni prayer as well.

Some of the petroglyphs show how we came from the Zuni emergence, which I believe was from the Ribbon Falls. And that would be our fourth world under the Grand Canyon. So, it shows like how we came from underneath with our toes and tails and hands.

So, we have a special and deep connection where some of our group leaders traveled down there and get materials that we use for our Pueblo for the same purposes as our ancestors did.

[Lakin]

So I believe you're referring to the Whitmore panel. And so for those listening, there's a petroglyph panel.

And so it's way down on that end of the canyon. And Ribbon Falls is on the north corridor. So like Malia mentioned, there's some imagery that depicts the emergence story of our people.

But circling back to your experience in college athletics, you did mention that you went to Scottsdale College for basketball. And we just want to know, like, what were some highlights of that experience?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, I would say definitely meeting new people and getting a new experience outside the Pueblo, since that's where all I knew and where I was from. So definitely meeting new people.

They became my second family, especially my roommates and my coaches. Like, if I call them, then I know they'll always be there for me. And I would definitely say, we made it to the finals.

So, we won against one of our rivals, Mesa. And that was probably one of the best games that I played at SCC. And the crowd was so into it as well, which I love, like, every second of it.

So I would say those would be one of my best experiences there from SCC.

[Lakin]

Yeah, and it's pretty exciting getting to hear the crowd get louder as the game gets into the fourth quarter. So that's pretty cool that you got to not only be in those moments but also be a participant in the actual game.

So yeah, that's, that's cool that you got to be there. But did you have anyone that inspired you to pursue collegiate basketball? Or did you have moments in your life that inspired that?

[Malia Ukestine]

I from a younger age, I always knew that I wanted to go at a higher level and play. But I would say who inspired me the most would be my sisters, because they are younger than me.

So, I wanted them to have someone to look up to and to show them that whatever you work at, you can get done in life with dedication. And also a point in my life, in my high school career, my basketball coach, coach Joshua Dupont, I would say he was one of my inspirations. Because during my junior year, I had torn my ACL.

And that's when COVID was happening as well. So, it was just a tough mental space for me. And just having him like having my back and him always being there for me and just pushing me to be my best was very, very inspiring to me.

And just he was, he always knew that I would be special and the next level. So just have him having my back, and him going through that whole experience with me. And so that would probably be one of my inspirations.

And also my mom, she, she sacrificed a lot for me and my siblings. And she gave up a lot as well. And just her showing us that we can do it like on the next level by ourselves and just being ourselves and we can do whatever with hard work and dedication and just putting our time into whatever we want.

[Lakin]

Yeah, and it's always good to have those people close to you that always want to uplift you, especially family. And so that's why our community is we still sustain those cultural values is because our families are so connected in that way that you described. But also like the challenges that we experience, kind of help inform how we approach challenges in the future.

Yeah. So as an athlete, and also a student, you represented the Zuni community in a positive light. Why is indigenous representation important in collegiate sports?

[Malia Ukestine]

I would say it's important because not many of us get to experience that college experience or definitely not playing sports while in college.

So I feel like me having that representation gave Native athletes inspiration to grow into that light and to show them that they are capable of going on to the next level. And also, I feel like a lot of Native American people are overlooked just because of how small our community is, especially Zuni. So me being in that positive light, it showed that we are resilient and that we are deserving of a chance to show our talents and abilities.

[Lakin]

Yeah, and I definitely feel like every small effort to improve this representation matters, whether it's like, not only being an athlete, but also going to college and obtaining your degree in whatever it is that you find interest in. But I want to know, what message do you have for youth back at home who wish to pursue collegiate athletics?

[Malia Ukestine]

I would say to trust the process and that everyone is on their own path. Because for me personally, I was always overthinking and being like, why ain't I already at this level? Or just comparing myself to others.

So I would just say, just trust the process and believe that everything happens for a reason and everyone is on their own pace on their own path. And if you are wanting to do collegiate sports, I would say definitely take the time to perfect your craft and take care of your body mentally and physically. Because it is a lot with school and like keeping your grades up and being with practice and wanting to perform great.

So I would say definitely just keeping your mental at a good state and just getting that extra work in and keeping your body good. I mean, I was in the training room like 24-7. That was my second home.

So yeah, that would be my advice.

[Lakin]

Nice. And so anyone listening to this, we hope that you do that.

So yeah. Thank you, Malia. And we always throw in a fun question for our interviewee, but also for the audience.

And our fun question is, it's pretty big. What's your favorite indigenous food?

[Malia Ukestine]

My favorite indigenous food? Hmm, well, probably the red chili soup with our Zuni bread. That would probably be my favorite.

Or Chuleya:we, so pozole. But that would definitely be my top two. There's too many I can't pick.

[Lakin]

Do you like your red chili stew hot or mild?

[Malia Ukestine]

Hot. I definitely like it hot.

[Lakin]

Nice. Okay, we're kind of getting to the end of the program here. But did you have a message that you want to leave the audience with here in person, but also listening?

[Malia Ukestine]

I would just say thank you for tuning in with me and showing support. It was great talking about my community and where I came from.

I would also like to see more Native athletes succeed. Just because like I said, we are a small community. And I feel like as a community, we are one.

So definitely just going out there and experiencing the world or going to college, whatever you may do, it's always a good light.

[Lakin]

Nice. So we'll open questions up to the audience here.

[audience member]

Okay. You talked about you spent a lot of time in the training room, then that was like your second home in a way. I bet that was a lot of work.

I actually have two. It's like, what did you what were some like things you did during training? And then I feel like that was a lot of work. So how did you like specifically take care of yourself?

Because you said like, you'd take care of yourself mentally and physically. How did you like really achieve that yourself?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, so like I said, I tore my ACL. So that training went to my knee and just getting it stronger. So we did lots of weightlifting, and just building my knee up back to where it was.

And so after that, some treatment we will do would be ice baths or heating pads. And also we would, I forgot it was like these air compressions where they would go on the legs and just compress your legs. So that was probably one of my favorite ones.

But other than that, for mentally, I would say just going out and just hanging out with my friends and being around my family that really helped me mentally. And even like, even though my family wasn't with me physically, I was, I always knew that they were a call away. So I will always call my family and like just check up on them.

So I would say that really helped me mentally. And just being around like my friends and family.

[audience member]

I know this probably goes into the category of questions that you get a lot. Because you just graduated recently, right with the associate's degree. What are you because you're talking about business and like, what are you hoping to do with your career?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, so I work in the car business.

But right now, I do want to go back to school to go into nursing. So right now I'm just working. But once I go back, I do plan on going into the nursing program to be a travel nurse, RN travel nurse, I do want to travel the world and help people.

So yeah, those are my plans.

[Lakin]

I kind of have a question. Since you work in the car business, do you have a favorite car or dream car?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, Acura TLX.

That'd be my mom's car.

[Lakin]

Okay, cool. That's it, everyone. Thank you all for coming. And thank you guys for tuning in online as well.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy.

A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca.

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 29 Jan 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/704A63C7-F2E2-4187-56545146D100C64F.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-70610CF0-FDD8-20F8-EA56B0238BC45D82 Wendi Lewis Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service Nahongvita! Askwali! Kwa’kwa! Just some of the words you may hear if you ever run a race at one of the Hopi villages. Wendi Lewis describes her running journey which ultimately influenced her to become a cross country and track coach. Now a head coach at Tuba City High School, she incorporates the cultural aspects of running for her team. She also tells us about her apparel business and how she uses it to help the community through fundraisers. 1616 no full 5 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Wendi Lewis]

The whole point of me starting the apparel company was that I wanted to do things for the community. I wanted to help, you know, people, like she said, kids need to go somewhere to run. I'll try to fundraise for them through the apparel, hosting races, with the apparel being, you know, the prizes that people tend to really like.

And I finally was able to establish my own nonprofit based on the experiences that, you know, I was given when I was little.

[Lakin]

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden]

And this is Meranden.

[Lakin]

We really appreciate you all for tuning in to this podcast, especially this season.

[Meranden]

Today's episode is about Wendy Lewis. She is Hopi and from the village of Kikotsmovi, who is the boys cross-country and track coach at Tuba City High School.

[Lakin]

She talks about her business and how she uses it to help fundraise for her runners, how time culture into running is part of her coaching philosophy, and tells us about what you may experience if you ever run a race at one of the Hopi villages.

[Meranden]

It was a pleasure to speak with Wendi this past summer, and I'm excited for all of you to hear her story.

[Lakin]

Here is Wendi Lewis.

[Wendi Lewis]

Good evening, everybody. My name is Wendi Lewis, and I am from the village of Kikotsmovi. I'm Hopi.

I'm Tawawungwa. My Hopi name is Kuwanhaysi That was given to me by the Coyote Clan.

I'm very honored to be here, so.

[Meranden]

Awesome.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah. Thank you for inviting me.

[Meranden]

Of course. And in similarity, I am also Hopi as well. My clans are Piikyaswungwa and Tsuwungwa.

Those are my Hopi clan, so both corn and snake. And then my Hopi name is Siikyatsumana, which means yellow snake girl. So those are some of our relations here with our tribes, and I'm very welcome to be joined here with Wendi because she's actually someone that a lot of people in our community look up to.

But first of all, have you been to the Grand Canyon before?

[Wendi Lewis]

I've actually lived in the Grand Canyon for a brief period of time. I went to school here for part of my fourth grade year. Yeah, so my family has all of my grandma and grandpa raised their kids here.

So I still have family that live here in the village.

[Meranden]

Nice. Yeah, and then you reside in Tuba City, which is also where I'm from. But you are a coach at Tuba City High School, and I just wanted to ask, how did you start your running journey?

[Wendi Lewis]

I've been running for as long as I can remember. I feel like my running journey started when I got entered into a race and won it when I was like six years old. My mom married a coach for the Hopi High girls cross country team, and I had no choice.

I just ran with them all the time, and that's been my life. That's how it started. And then you ran in school throughout high school?

[Meranden]

How far did you run?

[Wendi Lewis]

I ran all the way through junior college, Paradise Valley Community College.

[Meranden]

I ran two years there. Nice, and then that running seemed to have stuck with you to where you are now a coach. But what made you decide to coach high school cross country and track?

[Wendi Lewis]

I had a rocky journey trying to attain my bachelor's degree. In between all of that, I did coach at Hopi High School. I was an assistant coach for the junior high track team, high school girls cross country team, the team I used to run for, and then took a very long break.

About four years ago, I started volunteering at Tuba City High School. The last couple of years, or I want to say last year, I finally got hired as the head coach for the for the boys program, and I just recently got approved to be their coach again this fall.

[Meranden]

Nice, and I know through this school, it's on the reservation, and you've been able to coach a lot of indigenous students. Through running, has it helped connect your runners to their culture?

[Wendi Lewis]

Yes, that's a big part of my coaching philosophy because that's how I was coached. And I just had this conversation. I was just volunteer coaching at a Hopi running camp out home, and you know, talking to them about how I was coached by my stepfather.

I didn't realize until way later how important it was, the connection between life, between our culture as Hopi people, and the underlying reward of being a good runner. Like, you know, the emphasis was not on winning trophies. It was always about being respectful of tying in our culture into what we did at practice, and that's what I try to do now.

As a head coach, it's a little bit tricky because I was raised traditionally at home, and coming into this this new community where there's a village right across the street from Tuba City, or two villages I should say, and so we have a mix of Hopi and Navajo, and it's, you know, I have to pay attention. You also have people who go to church, you know. Out home on Hopi, it was just Hopi, and it was easy, you know, but now it's about like finding a balance and trying to learn about their culture too, and trying to, you know, make those connections between how I coach the Hopi kids.

I mean, and I try not to single them out, but I try to make that connection with all of them. It's a little tricky, but I'm trying.

[Meranden]

Yeah, and I know you said there's emphasis on the culture, and you were able to do that with the kids in Hopi. What is the importance of running to Hopi?

[Wendi Lewis]

The importance of running for Hopi is just getting our kids, our youth, our people to understand that we don't run for ourselves. We run for life. We run for rain.

It's an interesting cycle of, you know, land farmers, and we rely on the rain to grow our corn. Our corn is very important for us in ceremony. Like all of the things we do, we rely on those things, and then just the respect for life, all living things.

These are all like key things that we try to emphasize to our people on, you know, when we go out to run. It's a form of prayer. It's not physical activity, and so I think that's what makes it so important and special to us.

There's so much more that we want to get out of it, and we recognize that just in general, and Hopi, I mean, you could be running down, just going for a run, and you know, we thank, we always thank. You ever run on Hopi, they'll thank you in our language, because we recognize that as prayer. So, Askwali is the version for a female, and Kwa’kwa is the version for a male.

Anytime, you could, you don't even have to be racing. They'll see you, and somebody will yell that out to you, because that is what we believe running is about.

[Meranden]

Yeah, we see that really often when we have like any kind of race that's happening back home in Tuba, or pretty much, yeah, also there's another race that happens out more in the Hopi villages, whether it's the Lewis Tewanima race, there's people scattered all over thanking you for running. So, like she mentioned, it's prayer, and it's, we tried to continue explaining the importance of running, and what it means to us, and I know that you also are a business owner, and it does incorporate a lot of the importance of running, and what running means to us. Would you be able to explain a little bit more of what your business entails?

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah, so I started a long time ago, and I have to give credit to, you know, someone who I know, I think I have to mention a little bit later, but I grew up running with her from high school on, and one of the comments one time was that, you know, I wish, you know, because we're so prideful in our running, and what we run for, and when we make it to another level of running, it was like, I wish we had something that we could, you know, that would show that we're Hopi, if we're running in California, or in the Boston Marathon, or, you know, anything like that, and it was, it was just something that stuck in my head, and then one year, my daughter was running high school, Hopi High, and they wanted me to design a shirt for them, so that they could wear it at state, and I really wanted that shirt to be something that, if any Hopi could see that shirt, they would know without words that it was Hopi, so, and I wanted to symbolize the strength of females, because females have this really strong role in our culture, especially our youth, you know, we consider them at their purest, in their youth ages, so I wanted to incorporate all of that. I came up with a shirt with some Hopi girls, all in the position of, like, holding hands, their eyes closed, and that was just based on my upbringing from my coach. Prayer was a big part of, in, in running, and so it's supposed to, like, symbolize that she's in prayer, and there's seven of them all in a circle, because seven compete in a race at the state meet, and so I just kind of put them all in the circle, and that's kind of what started it, and you guys can pass that around, that's her right there, just call her the mana, and so that kind of started everything, and from then, I just kept trying to figure out ways to make different types of designs that reflected our culture, trying to explain, you know, the importance, there's the shirt there that, you know, talks about prayer, or running is prayer, and so it's in the formation of a rain cloud using feet and heart, because there's a word of encouragement that you'll also hear people yell out to you, it's, you know, Nahongvita, it's a, it's a word of self-encouragement and strength, and so the heart, it talks about, you know, digging deep with your heart, and so that's why I wanted to incorporate feet and heart in that design, as a symbol of prayer that we hope would bring the rain, so that's my company now, it turned, I try really hard to keep it going, I do also have a little boy, so I wanted the female to represent Hopi, certain aspects of Hopi female strength, and it took me a few years to do a boy, to figure out how I wanted to represent the boy, and like I said, you know, farming is so important to us, it is our culture, and I wanted the boy to reflect that, I hear, listen to stories about the history of our, the strength of our men, back when they used to run to the fields instead of drive their trucks, back when they ran from village to village, but ultimately highlighting the importance of farming, so the little boy there is, you can see him, he is represented carrying a soya, which is a planting stick, and then in his hand is posume, it's a bag of seeds that is used for planting, so I shared this with my boys cross-country team this past year, and I explained to them the importance of, you know, even the Navajo, my Navajo boys, I don't think I have, I think I just have Hopi and Navajo boys running for me, but, you know, explaining the importance of the strength of what you believe in, and the things that you're taught and raised, giving them that to use as a reminder for what they're running for, more than just time and medals, yeah, but that's the business, I have little accessories and stuff that, I have a, I opened up a shop in Tuba City across, at the Tuuvi Travel Center, and when I'm able to open it, it's open, but yeah, so that's my business in a nutshell.

[Meranden]

Yeah, and I noticed that you have a couple different things in there, you sell shirts, leggings, what are some other things that you sell?

[Wendi Lewis]

Stickers, everybody loves stickers, I have running tops, some lightweight jackets, pullovers, girl pullovers, I do have running shorts that just have the design, whether it's the logo, or if it's a little boy, with the word run on it. A funny story, I forgot my running shoes a few years ago when I was running, registered to run a 10k in Sedona, and I had to run in my Crocs that I was wearing, and it was not an easy course either, it was very technical, but I just decided to make Croc charms, you know, if I, in case I ever have to run in my Crocs again, I will represent my apparel through, with the Croc charm, so I have those two, just keychains, little accessories, and things like that, yeah.

[Meranden]

I actually do own one of your leggings, because you do a lot of fundraisers for the students too, like that you're athletes, and I ran one, I wasn't supposed to, I wasn't going to, and then my mom's like, you should just go run, it was the morning of, and it's, my sister, I was supporting my sister, and then my mom's like, you should just go run, so I was like, okay, I'll pay the, I paid the fee, and then I was like, I don't have any shoes, and then my mom's like, I looked at my mom and she had tennis shoes, I was like, let me use your shoes, so I used her shoes and I ran, and then I did pretty good to where I got one of the prizes, which was one of her leggings, so yeah, I have something that's hers, but yeah, there's a lot of inspiration behind your business, and the clothing that you make, and running all together, who are some runners, or people that you look up to?

[Wendi Lewis]

Well, like I said, I, you know, my, my friend, her name is Caroline Sekaquaptewa, she's been running for, I mean, like, I met her in junior high, because, like I said, my stepdad dragged me to all his practices, and she, she had graduated already, but she started helping him, and I really connected with her at that young age, and she would take me everywhere to run with her. She runs to this day, I think she was, this past year was her 14th consecutive qualification for Boston. She's done three Ironman triathlons, and she's just, like, you know, she's just such a hard worker, so she's a big inspiration to everything I do, like, everything I want to make, I think of her, like, will she wear this, you know, would she wear this when she's running?

Yeah, I have to say, like, I have to give her credit as, you know, my biggest inspiration for the apparel line, and things that I come out with. I run ideas by her. I have brothers who are artists.

I really value their artistic skills, so I, you know, reach out to them, and then my coaches, you know, my coaches that have supported me for as long as I can remember. Every time I do anything associated with running, I think of them, and hope that I'm making them proud.

[Meranden]

It's good that you have those people that you look up to, and then also, like you mentioned, she's helping you figure out items that you want to have included in your business, which is really nice. Much like how running is very important to Hopi, what importance does the Grand Canyon have to Hopi?

[Wendi Lewis]

The Grand Canyon is, it's very important to us. For me and, I mean, for Hopi, of course, but there was a lot of Hopis that grew up here, here in the village. I remember looking at my mom's yearbooks, and I see all these Hopi last names in there.

I don't know what made them, you know, settle in this area, but I feel like, you know, they kind of were taking care of the area, and I, my grandpa was kind of like my father figure, and he raised me, but, you know, I feel like when I come here, I'm kind of connected with them, like all of my family that all lived here, but I don't feel like I'm the greatest expert in, you know, I don't know too much details about the very, very, I know basics, but I just don't feel comfortable talking about it, because I'm not, you know, well-versed in it, or I guess there's also, like, a part of me that doesn't want to, you know, really ask those questions.

There's images sometimes that are shared from sacred points in the village that, you know, it scares me. I don't, I don't like to look at them. I don't feel like we should be looking at them, so it's, that's how, that's how sacred this, this place is to us.

[Meranden]

Yeah, there's a lot of importance, like, like I mentioned, there's eleven tribes here that call the Grand Canyon home, and Hopi is one of them, and as you can tell, there's a lot of importance to us, so make sure, like, we always mention to people to take care of it like it's your own home, and yeah. But usually, in this interview, we like to ask a fun question, and the fun question is, if you could have any indigenous food right now, what would it be? That's a tough question.

Do people answer their own foods? No, well, they answer, a lot of them, like, choose food from the flea market, so.

[Wendi Lewis]

Okay, I wasn't sure if that was indigenous, but the first thing that came to my head was a mutton sandwich.

[Meranden]

It's either that one, it's almost always mutton, or like steamed corn stew, so that's like the same thing. Okay, yeah, I love mutton sandwiches. Yeah, that's so good.

Can you explain what mutton is? Some people don't know what it is.

[Wendi Lewis]

Okay, mutton is sheep, grilled sheep, right? They just fillet it, I guess, and then put it on a frybread, preferably for me. They usually add corn, potato, and green chili.

I have my own way of, like, so they put, like, a halved potato in there, which does not make sense to me, so every time I get my sandwich, I'm, like, crumbling the potato, so, like, it's evenly distributed through my sandwich, and yeah, so, but I really like that, and I add cheese, which people think is weird, but it's just me, yeah, and onions. If they don't put onions in it, I put onions in it.

[Meranden]

Interesting.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah, I never had it like that.

[Meranden]

I just eat it as it is. Okay, cool. So, yeah, as we are getting to the end of this interview, which we will open up questions to the audience if anyone has any, I just want to pose one last question.

Is there anything that you would like to leave the audience with?

[Wendi Lewis]

Just, you know, to emphasize how important Hopi running is to us as people, and, you know, we just had this conversation at the running camp that a local wellness center hosted for our kids, and, you know, there are certain things that we're open to sharing, but there are certain things that, you know, we're still protective of, but, you know, always welcoming you to come and experience a run out there on Hopi.

There's a lot of local organizations that host runs. I've actually evolved, so a funny story about the, it's not a funny story, but the whole point of me starting the apparel company was that I wanted to do things for the community. I wanted to help, you know, people, like she said, kids need to go somewhere to run.

I'll try to fundraise for them through the apparel, hosting races, with the apparel being, you know, the prizes that people tend to really like, and I finally was able to establish my own nonprofit based on the experiences that, you know, I was given when I was little for running, and, you know, trying to share as much as I can, but also being respectful of what I shouldn't share. I think it's always great to invite, you know, people who aren't from Hopi to keep an eye out for a race out there, because, you know, it could even be a small free race. It's an experience.

You do feel the sense of gratitude that our people have when you're out there running, so if you're ever having a chance, go check it out.

[Meranden]

Yeah, and if you're not familiar, Tuba is about, like, an hour away, so it's not that far if you guys want to go visit. Okay, does anyone have any questions?

[Audience Member]

So, it is my understanding that Meranden, and maybe Lakin, and maybe some other people, are running a race or a marathon this fall. I'm curious if you have any words of encouragement for these folks.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah, Meranden actually reached out to me, and I failed at, you know, getting back with her in terms of her, but I'm really excited for her, and are you also training? Okay, yeah, I wish you the best, and you are welcome to reach out. I will come run with you if guys come to Tuba.

I'll go on a training run with you, so yeah.

[Meranden]

I'm kind of glad you mentioned that. Yeah, me and Lakin, we signed up for a half marathon that's happening here at Grand Canyon. It's at the end of October, so we have some time, but we kind of just were like, we should do it, pulled up the website, paid for it, and then we just left it, so yeah.

The best way to get started. Yeah, so we've been running around here. It's nice.

My biggest fear is like snakes now, so I'm kind of scared of them.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah.

[Meranden]

But I do have some running in me. My mom ran really good in high school. They were like good state champs.

My mom, her brother, and then my grandpa, they're really good runners, and then my little, my two little sisters, they ran cross-country and track, so it's kind of in my blood. I always played volleyball, so I didn't do running, but I can do running if I need to.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah. Yeah, I think did you actually come in first at that race that we had for the girls, females?

[Meranden]

No, I did third. I barely made it, but yeah.

[Wendi Lewis]

All right. I just wanted to add one thing, since this is, you know, and I feel really bad I didn't mention them earlier. They're also heroes to me.

I just mentioned Caroline, because she's, you know, I've known her the longest, but we have, I have another really good friend. They're all so supportive of all the work that I do. Steven Ovah is Hopi from the village of Sitsomovi, and he actually got in for the Western States 100, which he'll be competing in at the end of this month, which is huge.

He went through a lot. He, you know, he was earning his tickets, and then I don't remember what happened, and he had to start all over again, and he was so frustrated, and I just remember the excitement when he announced that he got drawn for Western States this year, so we're gonna be cheering him on. Look up Western States Endurance Run 100, and then the other is Kellen Lomayestewa.

Two years ago, he finished a Cocodona 250, and that really brought a lot of our community together, really excited everybody. He didn't do it this year, but he did register under a charity bib. He'll be fundraising for the Hopi Foundation, and he'll be competing in Cocodona 250 in 2026, so I, you know, I do what I can.

Like I said, you know, the apparel, I try to help them, you know, fundraise for them. I've seen the work that it takes to crew for ultras, and it's a lot of money. It's, you know, so especially for Steve trying to travel out to Olympic Valley, California, so, you know, I just wanted to give them a shout out and thank them for always, always supporting everything that I do, whether it's the apparel, the nonprofit work, all of that.

They're also big heroes to me, too.

[Meranden]

All right, we're gonna be ending our sunset talk now. Askwali to Wendi for being here today, and yeah, thank you guys for being here. Thank you.

[Speaker 3]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 22 Jan 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/02307992-98C9-3750-7EADACF07F7F2837.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-0245D060-D0AC-BEE6-F5BB8A235DFE687C Kyle Awelagte Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Grace interviewed Kyle Awelagte to discuss his cross country and track experience as a collegiate athlete. As Kyle is from the Zuni Pueblo, he describes the cultural significance of running and shares that his family has a multi-generational history of running in Zuni. Not only is he an athlete, but he is an artist: Kyle shares his work as a fetish carver and the spiritual connections that revolve around this ancestral form of creativity. Tune in to this episode and enjoy! 2350 no full 4 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Kyle Awelagte: I want to be able to teach the younger generation more about like the traditional and spiritual aspect of running and different art forms. I think that's my way of giving back to my community and keeping it thriving and living for as long as it goes

Lakin: Hello everyone, welcome back to season three of Grand Canyon Speaks.

My name is Lakin.

Meranden: And this is Meranden.

Lakin: In this episode, Ranger Grace interviewed Kyle Awelagte from Zuni Pueblo.

Meranden: Kyle, who runs cross-country at Fort Lewis College, has centered his focus on passing down traditional teachings revolving around athletics and art.

Lakin: From hosting a running event in his community to providing Zuni artists with business resources, Kyle looks forward to expanding on these endeavors in the future.

Meranden: Take a listen to this episode and we hope you enjoy.

Kyle Awelagte: Keshi, ko' don la:k'yadik'yana:we. Ho' Kyle Awelagte le'shinna. Hom annodi:we Dowa:kwe deyan K'yak'yali:kwe a:wan cha'le.

Kyle Awelagte: Good afternoon, my name is Kyle Awelagte. My clans are Corn and Child of the Eagle, and I am from the Zuni Pueblo. And this is my first time here, so it's exciting.

Kyle Awelagte: Thank you guys for all coming out and listening.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, and thank you so much, Kyle, for being here. It's really cool to have you out here.

Ranger Grace: And it's kind of hard to ignore the setting we're at. We are at the canyon, and the canyon's right behind us for those of you who are listening and not in the audience right now. And I do want to ask, just to get started, how does it feel to be at the canyon?

Kyle Awelagte: When I first got here, me and Shanoah were driving late at night, and we happened to see cloud storms like this, and a thunderstorm really hit. And at one point, I was kind of scared, but I knew that my ancestors were looking down on me. That was kind of like a signal that I'm back where we emerged from.

Kyle Awelagte: So I feel really connected to this place. It feels good to be here. Yeah, that's great.

Ranger Grace: That's a good example of how sneaky those thunderstorms can be when they show up, but a good sign at the same time. We like rain out here a lot. So part of the reason you're at the canyon is not just for the Grand Canyon Speaks.

Ranger Grace: Earlier today, you were demonstrating in the [Desert View] Watchtower as part of our cultural demonstration program, and there you were doing some, had some of your Zuni fetish carvings there. And to kind of let people who don't know, know about that, what is Zuni fetish carving? What were you doing at the time?

Kyle Awelagte: Zuni fetish carving is a form of art and also a way of expressing Zuni storytelling and tradition. It's typically used from natural stones and seashells and sometimes some elk antlers. So what Zuni fetish carving is, is an artist creates an animal or a spiritual, so what I like to make is called corn maidens.

Kyle Awelagte: So they have significance within our culture and the Zuni religion. A lot of it's used for some ceremonial practices and religious practices. And a lot of those pieces are for good omen.

Kyle Awelagte: A lot of them hold significant power in them. And a lot of people back home say that they're alive and which they are alive. They're living creatures, or not living creatures, but like a living spirit within that rock in that stone.

Kyle Awelagte: So that's why I do it just because of my culture and historical background on Zuni carving.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. And what got you into Zuni carving?

Like what was the moment you were like, I'm going to do this. And when did you start?

Kyle Awelagte: I remember when I was like 11 years old, my dad, he had his little motor set up inside the house and he was blasting music at one point while I was taking a nap.

And I went to go check in on him on what he was doing. And I saw that he had a piece of stone. It was angelite.

Kyle Awelagte: It was a really bright blue, kind of like a baby blue stone. And he was creating something out of it. And I asked like, “what are you doing?” And he said, “just watch this.” And he made a bear in like 20 minutes, 10 minutes. And I thought that was like the coolest thing ever.

Kyle Awelagte: So just from him explaining over the years, like what the purpose is and what like Zuni carving is, I saw that as like opportunity to learn and also opportunity to grow in my culture. So yeah, that's when I started really learning about Zuni fetish carving at age 11. And ever since then, he's brought me to trips like Santa Fe and different places. Just like, I just love the environment, like being able to be creative and have deeper meaning behind the art we make.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. And when you say trips like Santa Fe, what do you mean with that?

Kyle Awelagte: So usually in Santa Fe, New Mexico, they have like a big open like Indian market and a bunch of shops over there that sell like a bunch of Native American, different like jewelry, fetishes, just different stuff. And just being surrounded in that environment and looking what a lot of artists produce is something to be proud of. Just having that symbolism and different craftsmanship in like a big city is pretty cool to see.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, it sounds like a really inspiring environment to be in, especially with those crafts. And speaking of environment, I feel like you really set the scene with the story of your dad kind of with the loud music waking you up. And you mentioned like having the tools for fetish carving.

Ranger Grace: What is that process like? What goes into making a fetish?

Kyle Awelagte: So they tell you to have good thoughts and good spirit when you're doing fetish carving, because that's what you ultimately want to put into the rock. Just good, good spirit into it. So you start off by getting your raw materials, like your rock you find. So it can be like turquoise, serpentine, marble, just whatever you have.

Kyle Awelagte: And with that, we have a motor set up. So it's like, imagine like a motor that's in the middle, and that's the battery. And on the sides, there's a grinding stone.

And with that grinding stone, what I do is I like to look at the rock and visualize what I want. Because if you force it, it's not going to want to go that way. You kind of just have to work with the rock and like the shape and what you see in it.

Kyle Awelagte: So that's my second process. And I like to turn on music to like, make my spirit more happy. So I'll turn on like reggae or whatever I liked on the radio.

And yeah, I'll just get like getting like good vibes going. And having like the people around me that I love, just watching me create something. But other than that, you create the stone using the grinding wheel.

Kyle Awelagte: And my dad taught me to always like round it first and see what it comes out to. And a lot of the times it usually comes out to eagles. So I think eagles really speak out to me, and even bears. And with that, you kind of, you make the face for it. And you make the eyes because at the end of the product, it's living. So you want it to see.

Kyle Awelagte: And you create these bundles. So I use like wax to wrap it around and put little pieces of turquoise or coral. It's a offering to it. Or you can either sprinkle cornmeal on it, just to give appreciation for what you created. Yeah, so it's really just working with the stone and using your grinding wheel to create what you want, or what it wants to become. That's why I always say because you can't force it.

Kyle Awelagte: It's kind of a simple but kind of like a kind of joyful experience with it. It's also very dangerous too. Because you can like, sometimes I clip my finger with the grinding stone. And that's not too fun. But the music part is fun. And having my family and my dad teach me, that's the fun part. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, it feels better to focus on the fun than the dangerous part.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: And you've been doing that for a long time then. Because you said you started at 11. You're 21. So about 10 years.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Which is a long time to be doing a craft like that. So how have you seen that process change over time?

Kyle Awelagte: When I was 11, it took me like, probably like two weeks to like a month to even like, create something. Just because I didn't know what I was doing and how to work like the wheel and motor.

Kyle Awelagte: But ever since like, just watching my dad and him telling me stories about like, you can't force what you want to make. Because that's what I would do at a young age, I would try to force it and the rock would just crumble and not go the way I want it and make me frustrated and not want to do it. But he just told me to have that patience and time and always come in with good spirits and listen to what the rock wants to have you make out of it.

Kyle Awelagte: So just using those tellings from my father. So it really helped me develop as an artist and just a person in general, just life lessons and how I go about my heart and yeah, just my approach on it. So over the years, I've gotten better.

Kyle Awelagte: I've never had like opportunities like this where I've been able to demonstrate to people like around the world or anything. I've always just did it just out of like habit, because it was always fun to me, just growing up, not really having anything to do besides sports. So when I have like, any like something on my mind, and I just want to take it off my mind, I just like to turn on the music and just go to work on my craft.

Kyle Awelagte: So yeah, so over the years, it's really developed. Now I can like carve like with it like 30 minutes to an hour, depending on the stone. So I've gotten really better.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, yeah, it's cool to be able to kind of give yourself to the process.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: And really bring that energy to it and the intention. You mentioned there, sports as well. So not only do you do this craft and this art, but you're in sports as well. What sports do you do?

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, so ever since I was in elementary school, I've ran for the public school district for Zuni. And I started off when I was nine years old, is when I really started running.

Kyle Awelagte: I started, yeah, I started to just run out of like, because my mom told me to, to get out of the house and do something. So I just started running. I thought I was going to be a basketball player. I mean, I was a basketball player, but I'm not, I'm not good. And then my direction was mainly towards running just because over the years I've learned that Zunis and other Native American tribes are really good in running. And they've always used that way, even back then, to get to places.

Kyle Awelagte: They would travel long distances on their feet or even have like moccasins if they're lucky to run with. But I think just having that background in running is what really inspired me to go further and beyond than what I thought I could be capable of. So running's my, running's my thing.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, and with running, you kind of lean towards this a little bit with what you just said. Like fetish carving, that also has really big cultural significance. So what is the cultural significance in the historical context of running for Zuni?

Kyle Awelagte: So running is like just a way of life. I say it's a way of life of being able to, well, this is my perspective on running, being able to spiritually connect and mentally being able to get through things. So when I'm running, I usually pray in the morning to ask Sun Father for strength and guidance during like my runs.

Kyle Awelagte: And yeah, so I would say that's like a cultural teaching I've put into running. So it's just, it's more than, I feel it's more than running, like just, you know, getting hyped for a race and being like, let's go, let's go run, like in that competitive era. But I see it more as like a way of healing, like being able to know I work for something and work for a group of people that are known, like being able to just to represent something bigger than myself through running.

Kyle Awelagte: So like having that, having that background is something special and amazing. So yeah.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, I've heard other interviewees use the phrase running with purpose.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: That same thing of like having it be meaningful.

Ranger Grace: And for you both running and the art you do, you started doing very young. And you've mentioned to me your kind of involvement and passion for Indigenous youth getting involved in cultural tradition. So what's the importance of that involvement for youth and cultural tradition?

Kyle Awelagte: Just being able to continue the tradition through the younger generation, I think is important because grandparents and those with knowledge tend to pass down those teachings to younger people. And just having that ability to do that is what keeps your people alive and your way of living, I would say. Yeah, just that's, that's really important because in ancient times, that's all anyone had.

Kyle Awelagte: We didn't have like a phone or text messages or like files or like, you know, iPads to like record anything. It was just orally taught, verbally or shown, like demonstrated towards the younger audience. So I really think it's important that our youth get involved with their ways of living or their traditional practices.

Kyle Awelagte: Because when I was little, my mom and like my grandparents and just community members would just tell me these random stories and like what to do and what not to do. And I think that's the most important thing that someone can do to the younger generation. So with that, I want to be able to teach the younger generation more about like the traditional and spiritual aspect of running and different art forms.

Kyle Awelagte: I think that's my way of like giving back to my community and keeping it thriving and living for as long as it goes. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. And on that note, like with all you've already been doing and with starting both your art and your running so young, you kind of already have implied in a way you are, but like, do you see yourself as a role model for Indigenous youth?

Kyle Awelagte: Sometimes, sometimes I can be like, not really like a role model. I mean, I'm still like a, I'm like a young adult still living in this world and it's kind of hard to, but I try to be, when I go back home and the things I do, I'm careful with how I represent myself because I was, I was also that like little, little kid, like check, like looking at like the stars of like running and like the hardest, like I want to be like them.

Kyle Awelagte: So sometimes I feel like a role model and sometimes I don't, but a lot of times I, I look back at my community and I think I've become a role model, a pretty good role model for the youth. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: You make a good point. You're still young, but yeah, and you can still be a role model in that way. And were there people that were kind of role models for you to get involved with the things you're involved in?

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah. So a lot of my role models came with like in my community. And then of course for like my family members and out of my family, like some of my middle school coaches, their last names are Chopito, like Albert Chopito and them. They're my middle school coaches and my elementary coaches.

Kyle Awelagte: And they're really good at marathons and long distances. So I've always looked up to them and even people outside my community that also work within my community, like Eisinga and Coach Carroll and coaches I've had from high school all the way to college, like the Kyle Masterson, Laura Masterson, Coach Graham, Don Graham at Fort Lewis, which I go to now. Yeah.

Kyle Awelagte: Just having those different role models, something special to have, just having them being able to have them talk to, have gained their knowledge and being able to just have them work with me and what my purpose is as a runner and how I want to represent myself and my people. So having those role models makes everything 10 times easier.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. Adds to the community.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: It sounds like school was important for you in that way of like having those opportunities.

Ranger Grace: What are the ways you connect with running outside of school?

Kyle Awelagte: So a lot of my running I like to do back home. I love running back home just because it's really like flat and that's really beneficial to runners just because of the soft sand and the properties of it. And like we can literally like run like two miles and you'll be like up a mountain and you can work hard for that.

Kyle Awelagte: And I respect both aspects because I look towards one for like a easy, relaxed day. And I look towards one to, for like knowing I can work hard and push myself and still having that view of like what I'm trying to represent, having the view of like Zuni and the Pueblo and the mountains, like just reminding myself of where I come from, having that ability to overcome challenges like within my running and having like those easy days, just running around in the village, like just seeing everyone walking and seeing the community members, like going, doing their jobs, having people sell outside the tribal building, their arts. It's just the coolest thing ever.

Kyle Awelagte: And being able to go up to the mountains and just look down, knowing that maybe I can be something big and represent them, knowing that I came from this small little Pueblo. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. Representation feels really important. And with those like challenges in running, it sounds like running is ever evolving. And how have you seen that relationship change over time?

Kyle Awelagte: When I was younger, I really didn't know too much about like, like my culture and everything. And once I started like running and like I would always hear these stories of runners just within the community. I know we have like this, we used to have a thing happen in the, in our middle village where runners would, it's called a stick run. So runners would put their valuables in and race against other runners and run around the village.

Kyle Awelagte: And whoever was like the fastest basically collected everything. So that having that history and my dad telling me that our last name was a part of that and we were pretty fast as those runners. So having that knowledge and having, knowing that my people can do longer distances is, makes everything pretty much easier.

Kyle Awelagte: And not having like the knowledge of that before I started to develop my spirituality and my culture was hard at first because I didn't know who to like turn to. So once I started learning those different practices and languages to speak to our Gods and stuff, it life, it became life and running became so much easier in a way because I felt like my prayers were answered and they were hearing me up above. So being able to learn over the years and having that involved with my running and just school in general, it's a, it's a good trait to have and a good feeling that I'm able to continue that even as of right now.

Kyle Awelagte: I still do it to this day. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: That is really cool to hear just the way it has changed over time and the importance that you still hold and the involvement you still have with it.

And if you're willing, we talked earlier that you're actually hosting a running event for Zuni as well, which is a really cool way that you're developing that relationship continuously. If you want to speak to that a little bit. Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. So I created this run, it's called Corn Maiden Classic. It's in the heart, well not heart in the Zuni, but it's at our mountain called Dowa Yalanne.

Kyle Awelagte: So kind of like the history behind it or the stories told about it is our people use that mountain to get away from a major flood that was happening. And there was this sea serpent called the Kolo:wisi that was underneath swimming through. And the only way that that flood could stop was these two individuals, a boy and a girl were brave enough to put on all their traditional regalia and float all the way to the bottom and do a prayer for the flood to go away.

Kyle Awelagte: And on the mountain, there's these two stones that stick up. So that's a representation of those two who were able to do that. And I think that's so cool because it takes a lot of courage and sacrifice to do those things.

And a lot of people have their own challenges and they sacrifice a lot in their daily lives. So being able to kind of tell those stories about Dowa Yalanne and where I come from and having running incorporated, I think is so cool. It'll consist of a kid's fruit scrabble.

Kyle Awelagte: So that's basically line up some kids and they'll run like a couple meters and they'll be like little baskets of like fruit they can collect and just giving back to the little kids in a way I can. And having people gain health and fitness and just a way of getting out. Just promoting health in general is what I want to do and go further beyond with this event because this is just the beginning stages of some pretty big stuff I want to do later in the future.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, so with this I want to start and then create a competitive, kind of like a pro team for Zuni. And then build off of that and create a little center where these different types of athletes in any sport can have access to what a lot of these people have that we don't have. So being able just to raise funds and having accessibility to these different stuff to help young athletes and student-athletes flourish in this new world because technology's growing and growing and helping people adapt.

Kyle Awelagte: And having our cultural ways and having that new technology I think is gonna really be beneficial to our people, yeah. Ranger Grace: And it's an important kind of future and passion to have. .

And how are you like pursuing that? Kyle Awelagte: So I'm pursuing that in like different ways. Like just really starting to put myself out there because I was always like a shy person, never including myself into events or anything.

So I'm going to Fort Lewis College as of right now for a business administration, so bachelor's degree. And I want to use that business degree to help expand my passion running in art. So I want to help artists turn their art and their image into something much bigger than what they could imagine.

Kyle Awelagte: And having these different resources like in the village and not having to go seek out other resources. So just making that accessible at home while having that authentic credibility towards the artists themselves. Ranger Grace: Yeah, I think you're so well spoken about and it's really neat to hear kind of how much thought you've put into it and all these different elements at play.

And with that kind of train of thought, I think that's a good time to kind of take a break from these bigger questions we're talking about. And with this podcast, we always do kind of a lighter question. We call it our fun question that we ask.

Ranger Grace: So that question is, what is your favorite food? Kyle Awelagte: Oh, okay. I like cherry wood smoked barbecue ribs.

That's what I like with potato salad and roasted corn and green chili and tortillas. That's like my favorite thing ever. But I also like just chicken alfredo.

So I like everything honestly. I like desserts. I ain't even gonna lie.

Kyle Awelagte: I ate a cake. Ranger Grace: I mean, as a runner, yeah, it's pretty important to you. Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, they say that, but I just be eating anything honestly.

Ranger Grace: Well, they both sound like good meals. On that note, like as a runner, we had another runner on the podcast and I had been curious with her of like, running can be really demanding and can be pretty hard on the body. So like, do you do to take care of yourself as a runner?

Kyle Awelagte: Physically, I do what any other runner does is stretch because you really need to like let your, you need to really rest your body and just let your blood flow. So that being like sleeping more than eight hours, taking electrolytes, being able to stretch, roll out, going to trainers, have them work with you. But on the mental side, I like to pray before my runs and after and just thank like my ancestors and my gods for the gifts they give me and the new day that and just being thankful that I'm able to run because I know there's not a lot of people who can do the things I do.

Kyle Awelagte: And I'm really appreciative of what's been given to me. And my hard work that I've built over the years and just being able to really enjoy it and having just using prayer as a way to mentally take care of myself and having my family too, is I say a good recovery method to just having their good energy. So in physical and mental and spiritual, it's how I take care of myself.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, you earlier, this reminded me you mentioned how with your fetish carving, it can kind of be a space you go to, to kind of get away from other things. Does running feel like that too, just from the process you just talked about of how you? Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, so running, and I say any other sports you have so much passion in can be so demanding.

And that can like really mess like with your mental and even your physical. So being able to have like different outlets and the things you love to do, like just say, like spending time or creating art, listening to music, taking walks or enjoying nature is something that every person should do just for their well-being. And having that takes the workload off of the thing you may find hard, like your passion, because our passions are, they're going to be hard at points, and sometimes you're going to enjoy them.

Kyle Awelagte: But having those different outlets is what makes you miss it again, and being able to take it on for another day. Ranger Grace: Would you say, because it sounds like, you know, you've mentioned challenges with running, and I suppose you could find challenges in carving as well, like clipping a finger. So you touched on that a little bit, but how do you, what advice would you give to overcome challenges?

Kyle Awelagte: I say just take it day by day and have, have faith in yourself that you'll be able to overcome those challenges, and that you have people or friends or family that you can depend on to take that workload off of your, weight off your shoulders, and just go and, just go into the next day knowing that it's a new opportunity for growth, rather than dwelling on it for like a whole week or a whole month. Just take that appreciation that, yeah, okay, I failed.

Kyle Awelagte: Let's try again tomorrow and see if I can do something better and overcome that challenge. And it's, it's good to fail because you learn from those moments, and you adapt because that's who we are as a people. You, you adapt to overcome challenges naturally, and so just take it day by day.

Kyle Awelagte: Don't stress about long-term, just put yourself in the now and live in the moment.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, pushing forward.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Community. You mentioned like the importance of failing. We have a big phrase with our staff of failing forward and how that can be really important to just keep moving past things and learning from them.

Ranger Grace: And as the sun is starting to set, before we open up to audience questions, is there anything else that you really want to leave the audience with? Like anything important you want them to know? Just be thankful that you're here on this earth today experiencing the things you are.

Kyle Awelagte: Enjoy nature, enjoy what you can see, enjoy what you can hear, enjoy what you can feel, enjoy what you can eat, because I love eating. And just live in the present of today and know that everything happens for a reason.

Kyle Awelagte: So, keep being creative, keep being cool, keep being friendly, keep being loving, and yeah, that's what I'm going to leave you guys with.

Ranger Grace: I think those are good words to leave people with. So now I kind of turn to you guys in the audience. Is there anything you'd like to ask Kyle about? Any questions?

Audience Member: Hi, I'd like to know what type of footwear you prefer to run in?

Kyle Awelagte: Okay, so, um, I like to be comfortable in my runs, and I love New Balance. I think New Balance has, like, really squishy foam in it, and I think that, like, takes the ease off of, like, knee pain and, like, your bones and your muscles.

Kyle Awelagte: So having that New Balance shoe, I think, is, like, the best thing ever. But race-wise, I like to race in Nike. I'm a Nike guy.

Audience Member: What's your favorite type of stone to carve on?

Kyle Awelagte: Oh, okay, um, I love sandstone, just, um, because it's really, really soft, and that's good, but what makes it hard is you have to be, like, really delicate with it, or you'll shave everything off. And the only reason I love it is because when you get it wet, it smells like it rained outside, so you can smell, like, that earthy, like, um, smell. So that's the, that's my favorite stone, sandstone.

Audience Member: Do you plan on running down the canyon or from rim to rim one day?

Kyle Awelagte: Rim to rim one day, that's, how long is that, like, 24 miles? Almost a marathon. Is that a marathon? I plan on doing it. I'm, I'm, like, I've run in the mountains, like, back home, so I'm slowly training for it, but it's going to happen. It's going to happen one day, and we'll record it.

Audience Member: How do you run on sand?

Kyle Awelagte: How do I run on sand? So what I like to do is, what my coach taught me was, um, you want to take, like, baby steps and pump your arms, and what I like to do in that moment when, you know, you're struggling and you feel like, oh my god, this sand really is a killer, I, I like to focus on my breathing and take two deep breaths and just, like, remind myself that, um, I'm stronger than, um, this sand and I'm capable of doing, doing it. So it's a physical and mental thing.

Kyle Awelagte: So physically, I like to go on my toes and lean forward and use my arms, but use baby steps, and mentally, I like to tell myself, um, that I'm capable of doing this, even though it's hard. Always just have a good mindset and you'll get through things, yeah.

Audience Member: Um, throughout your running career, what is one of your most memorable races?

Kyle Awelagte: Okay, I think the most memorable race was, it was, I think it always had to be the Zuni invite, um, where I'm doing my run at, so Dowa Yalanne. I think just having, like, the community there, like, everyone comes out for that, and I think that's, like, the coolest thing ever, because you see, like, Zuni, Zuni runners that haven't ran or anything, you know, you don't get to really see them, and the community finally, like, come out to, like, see you run, and the other runners.

Kyle Awelagte: Like, other Native American runners just run and run up our, run their sacred mountain, so I think just that, having, like, the community and your loved ones and even having, like, your ancestors there watching down on you, um, I think that has to be, like, the most memorable one that I've enjoyed so far, yeah.

Ranger Grace: Alright, well, Kyle, thank you so much for coming out here and being a part of the podcast.

Kyle Awelagte: Thank you. I want to thank everyone for just sitting patiently and listening. Um, safe travels back to wherever you come from, and, uh, blessings towards you guys, so thank you guys.

Kyle Awelagte: Elahkwa.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music.

Ranger Jonah: This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 15 Jan 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/2DE40AE3-E8F7-8AC5-50374BFAF0DA03D1.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-2DF3AE74-B2E4-C8C9-E0035D3704FD0809 Jason Amador Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service This episode features Jason Amador, a member of the Colorado River Indian Tribes. ALCC Intern, Meranden, interviews Jason about his basketball career filled with highs and lows. Making his first appearance at March Madness was only one of the many accomplishments of his journey. With these experiences, he explains how he shares his story with native youth to provide them with motivation to go after their dreams, just like he did. 2188 no full 3 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Jason Amador]

Still the fact that, you know, playing in front of 12,000, 14,000 people, all the media coverage, seeing all the celebrities walk by, seeing, you know, where you came from at NEI, a school you never heard about. To now, Grand Canyon [University] playing against Maryland, and, you know, we're in the same venue spot as Oregon, U of A, Colorado State, and all these big time schools. It was just such an awesome and amazing season looking back at it now.

[Lakin]

Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Dan]

And I'm Ranger Dan.

[Lakin]

This episode features Jason Amador, a member of the Colorado River Indian Tribe, who is an athlete at Grand Canyon University.

[Dan]

He takes us through his basketball journey, where he faced injuries, the shutting down of his college, and family hardships.

[Lakin]

Through these difficulties, he was reminded by many support systems of how determination and discipline will strengthen him to better days.

[Dan]

Jason shares the triumphs of his career, going from his small hometown to D1 basketball, and how he uses his story to inspire Native youth of different tribal communities.

[Lakin]

And here is Jason Amador.

[Jason Amador]

Before I introduce myself, I just want to say thank you to the Grand Canyon National Park and the staff and Meranden for allowing me to come out here and speak to you guys today. So my name is Jason Amador. I'm a member of the Colorado River Indian Tribes, which is located in Parker, Arizona.

It is the western side of Arizona, close to Lake Havasu. On my mom's side, I'm Navajo. My clans are Coyotes Pass Clan and Two Came to the Water.

And on my dad's side, I'm Mojave and Quechan. I went to Parker High School, where I graduated. And then from there, I got a scholarship to go play basketball at the University of St. Catherine, which is an NEI school located in San Marcos, California, which is San Diego County. And from there, I got a chance to go play over at Grand Canyon, where now I'm studying for my Master of Science in Leadership.

[Meranden]

Awesome. Okay, and a quick question. Have you been to the Grand Canyon before?

[Jason Amador]

I have been to the Grand Canyon before when I was young with my family and a couple years ago. And it feels like every time when I visit the Grand Canyon, it looks like a perfect picture. For me, I'm not too fond of heights, so I kind of stay away from the rim.

But every time I come, it's just super beautiful, and it just always takes my breath away when I look at it.

[Meranden]

We're really interested in just understanding how you got into basketball and what really kicked off your basketball journey.

[Jason Amador]

So for me, growing up, I had a best friend. His name was Damian, and I consider him a brother now. So when I was in kindergarten, it was a funny story.

I had no friends the first day, and I remember Damian was sitting on the bench outside of our class. I didn't know him at the time. I sat on the bench with him, waiting for class to start, and he had a Pop-Tart.

And any other Pop-Tart comes with two pieces, so he gave me one, I gave him one. And that's kind of how our friendship started. So from there, like any other brother, you want to be close with them and spend time with them.

So for me, I was always into football, but he loved basketball so much, he got me into basketball. So we created a local reservation team called the Arizona Outlaws, and Damian's mom and my dad actually worked together at the Special Diabetes Project on a reservation. So we made an AAU team called the Arizona Outlaws, and we played in all these local tournaments all over.

And me and Damian every day always were brothers. We pushed each other every day. We worked out, played basketball all the time, spent the night at each other's houses, did Halloween together.

We did everything together. But unfortunately, the day before sixth grade starts, me and my dad were out in Vegas getting hats made for the whole team to surprise them. And I remember sitting in the store, and I remember my dad gets a phone call, goes outside, and I'd never seen him act this way.

So I was kind of surprised and kind of like, what's happening? So I just remember he told me, came to the side and said, hey, Damian and his family, they got in a car accident. And unfortunately, they didn't make it.

So for me, from that moment and that day on, I knew I wasn't playing for myself no more. I was playing for something bigger than myself. And that's what made me and kicked off my journey to go do what I do now.

So for every day, whenever I wake up, that was something that instilled a spark in me. And for me, whenever we played a tournament from that day moving on, it rained. And for us in Native American culture, when it rains, it means something sacred.

It means they're kind of watching over you. And literally for like two, two and a half years, every time we had a tournament, it always rained. And for me, that's something that always kicked off my basketball journey.

And that's where it got me in today. And just kind of knowing that he's up there and his family and he's watching over me. And I know he's proud of me.

And I'm trying to do my best to make him proud.

[Meranden]

Yeah. Wow. That's a really great way to keep you inspired.

You know, and I know that this started really young and you made your way to high school. And how did you go? How did your basketball journey continue after high school?

[Jason Amador]

Yeah. So after high school, you know, growing up in Parker High School, I'm pretty sure a lot of you guys haven't heard of Parker. So knowing that when I was going into my sophomore, junior and senior seasons, I wasn't getting recruited a lot.

I had all these accolades. I was Player of the Year, Offensive Player of the Year, First Team All-State. I was a McDonald's All-American nominee.

I had all these thousand points, club, had all these accolades, first team, everything. I wasn't getting looked at. No schools were reaching out to me.

And looking back at it now, what I know now is that a lot of these recruiters and a lot of these college coaches, they don't go out to the reservations to seek and recruit kids. They go to the big cities like Phoenix, Las Vegas, California, all these big-time cities. So for me, going into it, I was like, why am I not being recruited?

And I just remember going into my senior season, reaching out to all these schools, sending out my tapes and everything like that. I got reached out to by a coach, Kevin Williamson, at a D2 camp called Cal State San Marcos in San Diego County. This camp was the day after my graduation from high school.

And this was my last chance to go play college basketball. So we woke up at 4 in the morning, took off to the camp, drove there. And getting there, I always think about it, too, because it's always crazy to look back and think about the journey along the way.

And I know when I got there, I had my best performance. I knew that this was my last chance to go try to make the college basketball team, pursue my dream. This was my last chance.

Going through all the drills, I couldn't miss a single shot. My family came up to me, like, have you missed? I'm like, I have not missed, you know, going off screens, you know, like dunking the basketball, like everything like that.

I was doing everything I could to stand out. And I remember it came down to the All-Star game. A lot of these college coaches and camps host an All-Star game where the seniors and juniors play against each other, and they see who they want to recruit, and the freshmen and the sophomores.

And I remember when it was time to get picked, I was going into it. And I remember the coach looked at me, and he put me with the freshmen and the sophomores. And for me in that moment, it was really, like, looked upon like that was the first time I ever had my confidence taken away from me, because I worked so hard.

I had all these accolades. I knew I was a good basketball player. But for a coach to look at me and to say, hey, you're going to be the freshmen and the sophomores, I remember my family saying, like, yeah, go out there, you know, make sure you kill it.

But for me in that moment, it was a lot of hard. It was really hard for me to do that, because that was the first time I ever had anything taken away from me like that. So I just remember, like, I didn't want to, like, play my hardest.

I was like, this is it. And then after the camp, I talked to the head coach, and he was like, yeah, like, we could try to make something work, enroll into school, and come to me on the first day, and we could see what we can do. So it didn't work out, and I remember I was in the parking lot.

The assistant coach that invited me out, he was walking away, and my dad told me, he was like, I did everything I could for you up to this point. You know, I can't talk for you anymore. Like, you're a grown man now.

Like, it's time for you to go speak up for yourself, and this is your dream. You have to go chase it. And for me, I was always a shy kid.

I never liked talking to people. I always shied away. So for me in that moment, I knew my dream was walking out the door.

So I chased after him, said everything I could in a minute, and I got his contact information. He actually knew a former player of mine that came out from Parker. His name was Vegas Davis, and we made that connection really well.

He ended up leaving Cal State San Marcos, and he became the head coach at the University of St. Catherine. And going into the summer, I remember getting a phone call from him, and he said, yeah, Jason, I want you to be my first recruit. So he gave me a scholarship, and that's where I ended up going after high school.

[Meranden]

Wow. So all the determination, all that work, it really paid off, right? Yeah.

And then, like, after that, you were able to go to something greater, like going from that to now GCU. What made you choose GCU?

[Jason Amador]

So what made me go to GCU, I wish I could say, you know, it was as simple as they reached out to me. They got my film. They reached out to my coach, and it was simple as that.

They wanted me. It was not the case. So I ended up going to the University of St. Catherine, which was an NEI school, and it was the smallest Orthodox Christianity school in the country. And when you think of university, you think of, like, tens of thousands of students, all these big resources, everything. So I ended up going there. It was about 150 kids, and they were 90 to 95 percent all athletes.

It was an all-athlete school. So when I went there, it was literally like a two-story building when I first got there. So going there, you know, I was just so grateful for the opportunity to go play another four years.

So I had a great time doing that. Played against a lot of great D1 schools, San Diego State, Long Beach State, Utah State, Cal State Fullerton, Arizona State. But along the way, I noticed I had some pain in my hips.

So at the age of 20, after my first year of college basketball, everyone was telling me, oh, like, you probably got tight hips, keep stretching. So I kept doing that. I kept playing through it.

And I got to a point where I noticed I couldn't play defense no more. I couldn't sit in the car for too long. Like, it just started hurting.

So finally, I go get an MRI, and they tell me that I need double hip surgery and that all my ligaments, most of them, have been torn. So for me, I had to get double hip surgery at the age of 20. And trust me, that's not any way how you want to spend your summer is when you get double hip surgery, you're in a bed for two months.

You can't walk. You're in a wheelchair having to have your parents, you know, wheel you around the house and help you shower and help you go to the bathroom. I won't go too far into that because I don't want to think about that anymore.

But it was just a lot of adversity along the way. We don't have the resources as the big schools, you know, like our coach had a saying, and it was FIO. It was figure it out.

And that came to, like, rooming, being cramped in, like, little small vans, going to away games, only getting one meal a day. So going into that, you know, after my surgery, I was out for a year and a half. A year and a half is a long time in college basketball.

It's like dog years. Like, you have a certain clock when it comes to basketball and college basketball. So for me, I was out for a year and a half.

The first day I came back, I was rushing to get back. I was telling the doctors, like, I'm good. My hips are good.

Like, I'm ready to play. So the first day I come back and the first practice, literally five minutes into our first drill, we're doing a post-up drill. And I remember I'm guarding my defender, and I had my hand on his back.

As soon as I moved to put my hand away, he backed up into my hand, and I ended up breaking my finger. So after a year and a half of being out, first day I come back, I break my finger. So now I'm out, like, two more months.

And for me in that moment, it's like I developed, like, a why me attitude. Like, why did this happen to me? Like, why do I have to go through all this stuff?

And later I learned, like, God will humble you before he elevates you. And these are all tests along the way to make sure that you're capable and strong for it. So going into it, I go into my senior season.

You know, I play. I had a great season. I had my career high on senior night.

And a month before graduation, I knew I wanted to play. I had an extra grad year. I wanted to get my master's and play another year.

I remember a month before graduation, I'm working on my senior thesis, and I get an e-mail from the school, and it's from the president of the school. And it says the University of St. Catharines has shut down effective immediately. And I'm looking at that.

It looks like spam. Spam e-mail. So then all of a sudden my phone starts blowing up, and I look at my phone, my coaches.

It's my teammates. It's my classmates. And I'm looking at it, and literally it's this e-mail right here, and that's how I found out my school shut down.

Literally the grades were posted the same day. And I'm looking at it like, I've got to find a new school to play at. And I'm like, this doesn't seem real.

Like, how did your school just shut down? So at that point, I'm wondering, like, if I'm going to get my credits, if I'm going to get my diploma. Like, what's going to happen to all the guys?

Like, all my coaches, everyone's got to find a new school, a new home to play at. So going into it, I had to find a new home. And for me, I reached out to a lot of schools.

I had a dream of playing Division I. And for me, I was fortunate enough to reach out to all these schools. And looking back on it now, it's pretty cool.

As a kid from a reservation, talking to schools like San Diego State, Long Beach State, Washington State. GCU, you know, it didn't really cross my mind. But looking back at it, I knew I wanted to play in front of my family.

And the year before GCU, I spoke to Bryce Drew, who's the head coach at a summer camp. And a fast-forward a year later, you know, my head coach has his number. We reach out.

Nothing comes back yet. All the e-mails I sent to all the assistant coaches, the athletic trainer, everyone at GCU, it's not working. There's no response coming to it.

So in my head, I knew I was going to try to go play at San Diego State. Going into the summer, it's crunch time. I got to choose a school.

So I send out a last-minute e-mail to Jamie Boggs, who is the athletic director at GCU. And when you look up e-mails at GCU, like on the staff website, they don't have them. The higher you go up, they don't have the e-mails.

So I literally guessed her e-mail, and I sent out an e-mail as a last resort. The next day, I look over my phone, and she responds. And she's from San Diego, and she heard about my school's closure.

So she got me in contact with Coach Drew and Coach Shaw over at GCU. And from there, you know, I was able to go out there, do a visit, see some of the guys, meet the coaches. And fast-forward a couple weeks later, didn't hear nothing from them.

And I'm out coaching at a high school tournament in Phoenix. I get a call from Coach Shaw, brings me into his office, and he said, you know, we heard nothing but great things about you, and we'd love to have you, and welcome to GCU men's basketball. So that's why I chose GCU.

[Meranden]

Wow. That's a long process. I think, everyone, we should give him a hand for, like, that.

That's insane. Yeah, you've come a long way. That's exactly what we need to hear is, like, these people like you, they don't get that kind of recognition.

They don't know these kind of pathways that our indigenous athletes are going through. And, like you mentioned, not a lot of recruiters or people like that go to the reservation for this kind of talent, and it's there. So, yeah, you went from res to getting, unfortunately, those injuries to your school shutting down to now at GCU to having a very successful season.

So, you know, with Grand Canyon University, I've just seen how they've excelled in the championships that they won over the past few years and then winning again this year. I'm just curious of, with this very exciting season that you had with them, what are some of the highlights that you've had while being at Grand Canyon University?

[Jason Amador]

So some of the highlights I had is, one, I've seen it from NEI to D1 is the resources. I mean, the facilities of a 24-7 access to the gym. We have a chef that makes food after every practice, every game.

So, like, having a limited food, being able to go in there and get any Gatorade, protein drink, smoothie. You know, one day it could be, like, spaghetti, chicken parm, chicken alfredo, spaghetti meatballs. Like, this was so surreal.

I've never had this at my old school. So just that and just the amount of fans and, you know, the amount of love that we get, that's one of the highlights I had. Just, you know, going, transitioning from NEI to D1.

But moving forward into this season, I actually got baptized by Coach Shaw. He's the one that actually kind of recruited me. And for me, the reason I got baptized is just a blessing in the journey that it took for me to get here.

It made me realize of how blessed and, you know, how God's always been by my side. I was warming up before a game. Kids came from spiraling in, filling up the student section.

And I'm sitting there, and I'm like, you know, it hit me. Like, I wanted to dedicate and, you know, devote my life to Christ. So I told Coach Shaw before warm-ups.

And the next day, we brought the team out, and I got baptized in the pool. And it was such a surreal feeling, and I'm glad my brothers got to witness. And it was such an awesome moment.

Anytime I win in the game, they always chant it for me. The Havocs is our student section. So imagine you have an arena of 7,000 people chanting, like, we want Jason.

So for me, like, that was such a surreal feeling. You know, I love them for that. And we have an amazing student section.

We have amazing fans. You know, we have amazing coaching staff and an amazing team with it. So I remember this particular shot right here was against Utah Valley, and they were number one in our conference.

And that game was special to me because my family came down all the way from Gallup and Navajo Nation and had a lot of friends come down. And just seeing them in the stands when I made the three, you know, they were all jumping up and down, so excited. So just being able to see that, my family in the stands, you know, celebrating and all the sacrifice they did for me and all the love and support they've shown over me, it just made it, like, worthwhile.

And just seeing them jump up and down, that's what I do it for. And then we actually won the WAC conference, and that was probably the most amazing feeling. You know, we were second in our conference, and we played Utah Valley in the championship in Las Vegas at the New Orleans Casino.

And I just remember the feeling of, you know, just the confetti dropping down, all the cameras, all the media came up, and it was just such an awesome feeling being able to cut down a net and being able to get a ring and just knowing that you're going to have a banner up in the GC arena for life. And that's something that I loved. And from there, you know, we got a chance to go play in the March Madness tournament.

And that was such an amazing, you know, amazing time. You know, the 64 teams, the best teams all in college basketball, being able to go out there. We played against Maryland over in Seattle, Washington.

Unfortunately, we didn't come out with the outcome that we wanted. But just still the fact that, you know, playing in front of 12,000, 14,000 people, all the media coverage, seeing all the celebrities walk by, seeing, you know, where you came from at NEI, a school you never heard about. So now Grand Canyon playing against Maryland, and, you know, we're in the same venue spot as Oregon, U of A, Colorado State, and all these big-time schools.

It was just such an awesome and amazing season looking back at it now.

[Meranden]

Yeah, that's crazy. Once again, I'm, like, shocked at everything that's been going on. And, you know, like with the celebrations and everything that's going on at GCU, it's amazing.

The support is there. Like, you know, that student section to the coaches, to everyone that's in the stands. You are a really big inspiration to the tribal communities, more specifically the youth.

Your basketball journey has come a really long way, and you're an inspiration to the community. What does it mean to you, and how has that overwhelming support made you feel?

[Jason Amador]

It means everything to me. Just seeing the youth and just seeing how much they support you, I just remember looking at them like I was in your shoes, and that was me growing up. I had dreams.

I wanted to play college basketball. I wanted to play professionally. So, for me, it just means the absolute world to me, you know, the amount of support, the amount of love, you know, that they've given me.

And this photo right here, they actually came out to one of my games, and they had the best time. The Havocs, the student section, were all dancing with them. They were jumping up and down.

They were singing songs, you know. They showed a lot of love. And after the game, they all came up to me and were giving me hugs and just telling me how proud of me they were, you know.

And it was just an awesome feeling, you know, just knowing that that was once me in their shoes, and I wanted to look up to someone, you know. But they've shown me the most amount of love and support, and I couldn't thank them enough for it.

[Meranden]

Yeah, that's amazing. And, you know, that representation is there. And personally, I don't see a lot of that indigenous representation, especially in the D1 community and, like, those kind of higher-ups.

Have you played against any other indigenous players or seen any indigenous representation, you know, with GCU or any college experience or games you've been in?

[Jason Amador]

Yeah. So at the NEI level, I played against SAGU, which is an American Indian college. So I played against them.

But at the D1 level, I can't say that I've played against anyone at the D1 level. But I know there's a lot of great athletes, a lot of great coaches, and, you know, at the Division I NCAA level, Houston just played Florida in a national championship. The head coach for Houston, he's Lumbee.

He's Native American, so seeing him and seeing how far he took his team to the national championship was amazing. Trayson Eagle Staff, he plays over at North Dakota, I believe. He's, like, going off and doing amazing things.

But, you know, there's a lot of great athletes, you know, Kyrie Irving, Lindy Waters, Marjan, there's a lot of great athletes out there. And it's just amazing to see.

[Meranden]

Yeah, that representation is very small, but those people who are there make a huge impact, like yourself. It's been a lot right here, like, rollercoaster, just hearing everything that you've done and where you've gotten to right now. Where do you see your basketball journey going from this point on?

[Jason Amador]

So I played my graduate year. My last year, I had a senior night. And for me, that was an awesome, awesome game.

They actually made a new rule where it's a non-NCAA rule where if you play at a non-NCAA institute, you get a year back. So my coach and coaching staff informed me that I have an extra year back. So hopefully I get to go back and play at GCU this upcoming season as we go into the Mountain West Conference.

But after, you know, I plan on getting into coaching. But also, too, like, I just love giving back to communities. I love doing the speaking engagements.

And it's just such an awesome feeling just to, you know, to speak to the youth and just to help motivate them and help push them in a way that they can achieve their dreams. So I know definitely I want to stay in the coaching world, whether that's actually in basketball or whether that's strength conditioning or if I want to play professionally after my collegiate season. Wow.

[Meranden]

Well, we wish you well on that journey. And, you know, just hearing from what you've been doing, we see a really bright future for you. And, you know, like you mentioned again, your tribal communities and how important that means to you.

You're part of the Colorado River Indian Tribes. And along with your tribal community and the 11 tribes here, the Grand Canyon means a lot to us. And you are, once again, it's in the title of your tribal community, the Colorado River.

What importance does the Colorado River have to yourself and your tribal community?

[Jason Amador]

Yeah, it means a lot to us. It means everything to us. You know, we believe the water is sacred.

It's a healing source for us. And, you know, the Grand Canyon, just looking at it now, like it's just something that you don't really think too much about. But when you come visit, it's like, why am I not here more often?

You know, it takes your breath away. It's a place of healing. And for me, you know, it means everything to me.

It takes my breath away, and I just love it.

[Meranden]

Awesome. So we have a little fun question that we like to ask for our podcast here. If you were to have any indigenous food right now, what would it be?

[Jason Amador]

That's a good question. So for me, like in the season, I can't really have anything like that. So now that I'm in the off season, I am actually craving a Navajo burger.

I just love it. I don't know what it is. It's the fried bread with the burger patty in between.

It's the best thing in the world. If you haven't tried it, I highly recommend for you guys to go try it. It's the most amazing thing.

[Meranden]

Is there a specific place you get yours?

[Jason Amador]

I just go to Pow Wows, and whenever I see it. The last one I had was over in Morongo. And it was from, I believe, somewhere up in Navajo Nation.

And it was the best thing ever. I had like three of them. It was amazing.

[Meranden]

Thank you so much for getting right here where we are and hearing so much about your journey. As we are wrapping up here, is there anything that you would like to leave the audience with?

[Jason Amador]

I would always say just dream big. And for me, what I always tell kids and what I always tell people is that every person in this room has their own journey in life. A lot of you guys are going to have different roads of high points of adversity, high points of success.

Each and every one of you guys is different. One of the biggest things that I could always say is just to never give up. Keep going.

And God will humble you before he elevates you. And I always go back to a quote, John 13, 7. You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.

And for me, I always take that a lot because I always go through stuff in my life where I'm like, why does this have to happen? Why do I have to go through this? And later on, I realize it had to happen for me in order for me to achieve the next part of my life.

So I would always say to never give up, keep going, and chase your dreams. Because for me, I was a kid in the stands from a small reservation. Now I'm a six-foot guard playing at Grand Canyon.

And at any Division I level, all the guards are 6'3", 6'4", 6'5". I have a teammate, his name is Dennis Evans, and he is 7'3". So for me, you can achieve anything you want.

Don't let anyone tell you anything different, whether you want to play in sports, academics, doctor, lawyer, whatever the case may be. You can achieve anything you want. But just know it comes with dedication and sacrifice and everything in between.

To get what you want, anything worthwhile in this life that you want is not going to be easy. And I won't be the last person to tell you that. Just know that there's going to be high points and low points in life.

And just to keep your head on straight and just to never give up.

[Meranden]

Good. A round of applause right now. Thank you guys so much.

Thank you, Jason. So we have a little section right here at the end if anyone has any questions.

[Audience Member]

Your story was very inspirational, amazing to hear. How do we have 100 more of you?

[Jason Amador]

Thank you for that. That's the million-dollar question. I just feel like in life you have to find something that motivates you and that makes you want to do what you want to do at the level you want to do it.

And for me, unfortunately, losing my brother early on, that kind of instilled a spark in for me. And that's something I use every single day when I'm on the court, off the court, trying to be a better son, be a better student, be a better teammate, be a better friend, be a better person. That's the question for everyone.

Just find ways to motivate you to help you get to where you want to be.

[Audience Member]

Go Lopes!

[Jason Amador]

Yeah, go Lopes, go Lopes, yep.

[Audience Member]

Who did you look up to?

[Jason Amador]

Who did I look up to? That is a great question. Growing up, I would look up to Damien.

He inspired me a lot. But now that I look back at it, I look up to my dad. He did so much for me, and he was the first person to believe in me and believe in my dreams.

He took me from my reservation, he took me to all these camps, the Pangos All-American Camp, he took me to the Michael Jordan Camp, he took me to all these tournaments in Phoenix, Vegas, Oklahoma, California. He gave up all of his time, all of his money, all of his energy, and best believe, he lets me know every single day that he could have been on a weekend, going on a vacation, buying a new truck or whatever. Just looking back at it, he was always in my corner.

Anytime I had a bad game, anytime I went through something in life, I knew I could always call him. He is my biggest fan. Just looking back on it, he's someone that I look up to every single day.

I hope I made him proud, and he's the best father I could have asked for.

[Audience Member]

I've heard you mention coaching before. I was wondering if you had any teams in mind. Would you go to Navajo Nation, Flagstaff?

Where would you want to coach?

[Jason Amador]

I definitely want to stay. I've done high school tournaments, I've done local rez tournaments. I did NABI, I did the national Native American tournaments, all of those.

But for me, just seeing the level of play at the Division I level, at the collegiate level, I love being around those type of people. They just have such a work ethic about them. My teammates, my coaching staff, they're always working, they're always recruiting, always trying to find ways to improve their game and their coaching game.

I definitely want to stay in that realm. And just kind of being an outlet, and just kind of having an outlet to speak, and to represent Native American culture at the highest level. I would definitely stay either at the collegiate level or professional.

Great question, though.

[Audience Member]

When were you at your lowest points, what made you keep going?

[Jason Amador]

What made me keep going, that is an absolutely amazing question. So in those moments of adversity, in those moments when you feel like nothing could come good out of the situation, just knowing that God has a plan for everyone, and for me that really kind of instilled in me that he's always going to be there for me when I fall, my high and low points in life, and just my family. But also, too, just my brother Damien.

I just knew I wasn't playing for myself no more, I was playing for him. And he gave me signs that he was watching over me, and his family too. I just knew my journey ahead was all for him.

So in those moments of adversity, just knowing that God was there, and I had people, my ancestors looking over me, watching over me, and I had a strong support system that really helped me get through all those low points in my life. But that was an amazing question. Thank you.

[Dan]

I'm getting my workout.

[Audience Member]

Did you have a pump-up song before every game? Like something to pump you up?

[Jason Amador]

That is a great question. So before every game, it's always like there's a stigma for athletes to have pump-up songs, rap, rock, whatever the case may be, to pump you up. For me, it was always just clearing my head, just turning off the lights, taking a pregame nap, and just kind of envisioning what was going to happen before the game.

That kind of really got me psyched. But I can't sit here and lie. There's a lot of great rappers that I listened to before the game.

This year, our team loved Boss Man D-Lo. That was like everyone loves Boss Man D-Lo. We play on the speaker and we walk out before the tunnel.

I would say it's definitely rap. Rap was like the one thing that really pumped me up before games.

[Audience Member]

What would you consider your highest moment, your highest point so far?

[Jason Amador]

My highest point, you know, there's a lot of stuff I could say. Going to March Madness, scoring my first point at the Division I level, going from NAI to D1. But I would probably say the highest point of my life was just being baptized and just dedicating and serving my life to Christ.

That was a moment in my life where I knew I could, out of all the things that I've achieved in life, that it wouldn't be possible if it wasn't for Him. Just being baptized and having my teammates out there, my brothers, my coach baptize me, it was such a surreal and amazing feeling for me. That's something I'll never forget.

So without God, for Him, I wouldn't be where I am today. So that was definitely probably the highest point in my life.

[Meranden]

Thank you, Dan, for running around.

[Jason Amador]

Thank you, Dan.

[Meranden]

We'll have one more round of applause.

Thank you so much, Jason, for being here today. Jason has something if you want to talk about it.

[Jason Amador]

Yeah, before we end off, I just want to say thank you to Grand Canyon National Park and the staff and Meranden for allowing me to come out here to speak to you guys. Thank you for you guys who stayed and asked questions. You guys are awesome, and I really appreciate you guys listening in on my journey.

But, yeah, I actually have autographs, cards. I would love it if you guys could take one. Just thank you to you guys for allowing me to come and speak to you guys here today.

Thank you.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of Tribal members and do not encompass the views of their Tribal Nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated Tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 09 Jan 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/2D80F721-D9CA-6F72-AEDA61979BBFB8F6.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-2DB741E0-F66B-BB61-8BD10EC724A97AA7 Ali Upshaw Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Eliana speaks with collegiate runner, Ali Upshaw, who is Diné from Fort Defiance on the Navajo reservation. She talks about how she started her athletic career with family who are also runners and made it to her dream college team through some intense training along the way. Through the hard work of it all, she describes how running keeps her grounded, accomplish big goals, and stay connected to her culture. 2463 no full 2 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Ali Upshaw]

And so I used to see like all the girls, all the women that went through the program and ran at nationals wear that turquoise jersey. And so in high school, when I had found out that they had offered me a spot on the team, I just kept writing down that whole summer, I want to wear the turquoise jersey, I want to wear the turquoise jersey, because I wanted it so bad. And so that's how things really kicked off.

[Meranden]

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Lakin]

And this is Lakin.

[Meranden]

We hope you have been enjoying season three so far. We were very fortunate to speak with so many amazing athletes over the summer.

[Lakin]

On that note, this episode is about Ali Upshaw. She is Diné and from Fort Defiance on the Navajo Reservation.

[Meranden]

She spoke with Ranger Eliana about how running has been in her family for generations and is very important to her culture.

[Lakin]

Allie describes the self-discipline of the sport and how her hard work has helped her run for her dream school and even breaking school records at Northern Arizona University.

[Meranden]

Thank you all for tuning in and enjoy this episode with Ali Upshaw.

[Ali Upshaw]

Hello, everybody. (Introduces self in Navajo) My name is Ali Upshaw. I am from Fort Defiance, Arizona, and I currently go to school at Northern Arizona University where I also run cross-country and track, and I am studying public health.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wonderful. I want to ask you, have you been to Grand Canyon before?

[Ali Upshaw]

I've been here a couple of times.

My first time I've ever been to the Grand Canyon was in high school. And my stepdad, he lives pretty close to here. I grew up like in Flagstaff pretty much his whole life.

So he was the first one to ever bring me to the Grand Canyon. So that was my first experience, but it took me kind of a while to get here. But I've been here a couple of times with people in the past.

And the nice thing about Northern Arizona University's cross-country team is that we usually have our preseason out here. So sometimes in like the week before school starts, our coaches, they'll take us here to go for a four-mile run. So we do it along the ridge.

And so we all kind of like have our little team bonding moment with the team and getting to know each other here at the Grand Canyon. And we usually like sit out on the sunset in the first week of our preseason. So that's what we do.

So I've been here twice with the team before, so I have some good memories with the canyon.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wow, that's so awesome. What does it feel like to run along the rim of the canyon?

[Ali Upshaw]

Oh, it's a little scary. You gotta really watch your footing with a lot of the trails here because it's so rocky. But it's fun. It's definitely a lot different feel than a regular run where you're just focusing on training.

You can really relax and just focus on the view and being with teammates. So it's really fun.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. That sounds like a great team-building activity. Also just coming out here, just for reference for you guys, where Ali is from is pretty far from here.

So the Navajo Nation is about the size of West Virginia. Now she lives closer in Flagstaff, but yeah, this is like a really big area. So I'm so glad that she's here.

I want to ask you, so we spent some time talking earlier today here. What was it like coming back today?

[Ali Upshaw]

It was really fun. I spent the day with you mostly and with Park Ranger Kelli Jones. So I had a really great time with you guys today and especially talking about the canyon and her perspective of everything and the tower.

So it was really, really interesting to just listen and walk around and just be out here for a different purpose than running and just training-wise or just sightseeing-wise. It really brought a different perspective for me. So it was really fun.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. I feel like the canyon is so different every time you visit and for me, every single time I look at it, it's different. So talking about running, I'm curious, how did you get started with running?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So I got started with running kind of like in early age. My whole family, they ran.

So funny enough, my grandpa, he used to coach my mom in high school. And then when I got to high school, my mom ended up coaching me in high school. So all of my uncles, my aunties, they were runners.

And my grandpa used to talk about my mom all the time, all the time about being so fast. So just being a very fast runner in general and how much she used to run and how much races she won. And she also ran at the state meet and she has her own state championship title individually.

And I remember he used to talk about it all the time. And it used to like, I think the very competitive side of me kind of came out in that moment where he would continuously talk about her all the time, all the time. And I used to think to myself, I want to, I want to beat my mom, I want to run faster than her.

And I kept thinking that in my head and every time he would bring it up, I would always think like, I want to be faster than her, I want to be like her. And I want to be faster than my uncles and my aunties. So I really started to get into running when my grandpa told me those stories.

And so that's kind of like how it all began.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so cool that it's like a family thing. Your mom sounds really, really awesome from some of the things you told me earlier today. Is she like a role model for you?

Can you tell me about like any role models that you have in your life?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So my mom definitely plays a big role model influence in my life. Not only is she, was she a good runner in high school, but you know, she was really smart and educationally, she went on to get her doctorate degree in veterinary science and has her own nonprofit on the Navajo Nation and her own clinic where she works out of with large animals and small animals.

And so she's one of like the only full time veterinarians on the Navajo Nation, which is also something she does. And so I find a lot of influence from her, not only athletically, but academically as well. And, you know, my grandpa used to keep in mind a lot of like the role models that have come through Navajo Nation and, you know, the way runners, you know, big name runners, you know, names like Alvina Begay, Billy Mills, all native runners that have run at such a high level.

And they've always, I guess, shown me that, like, if they can do it, I can do it too. So they definitely played a strong role in allowing me to pursue my dreams.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the importance that running has for your tribal community or for your culture.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, so there's a lot of cultural ties that our community has to running. And, you know, not only is it viewed and very popular in competition, but it's also present in a lot of like our cultural ceremonies. And, you know, growing up, I was always taught that running was a form of prayer and a blessing.

And my grandpa used to get me up really early in the morning because they say that when you're up that early and you see like, if you've ever been like up really, really early and you see like the the blue hue of like the horizon and that light, they say that's like when the holy people are out and that's when you should be running and that's when you should be just out there running in general. And so that was a big piece he used to tell me growing up. And so, you know, growing up in high school, that was a big thing for me was the cultural ties and not only, you know, viewing running as a sport, but also as a cultural value in my life that has kept me grounded.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so cool. OK, so I want to get into a little bit of the nitty gritty here. So can you tell me how you kicked off your collegiate career in running?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, so it it pretty much all started in high school. I think when I really started to compete more and get better, I started to realize, you know what, maybe I am pretty good at this and it can, you know, I think not until like my first college offer, I really started to realize that, hey, I can go to college to do this and I can continue to doing to do what I love. And I wanted to run Division One, you know, when I had first gotten into my junior year.

And I made that a priority for myself that I wanted I wanted to be there on the big stage early on. I didn't have, now that I think about it, I didn't have a whole lot of offers to begin with, but I had like a sliver of a chance to run for the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. And so the coach gave me a partial scholarship to run out there, even though it wasn't a full one.

So but, you know, at the time, UNM was pretty good running school and they had just gotten like their first or one of like their national titles on the women's side in cross country. And they had big names like Wynnie Collotti and Edna Kurgat that all ran internationally and were really good runners. And I really wanted to be a part of that championship atmosphere, like so bad.

I remember when I first got the offer, I closed out every other offer that came my way. I was like, I'm going to the University of New Mexico. And if you've ever seen like UNM's national championship jerseys, they're different from like their regular season ones.

Cool thing about UNM is that they have very unique colored jerseys. They have the red and turquoise combo and not many schools actually have that colorway. So it ties back to like the Albuquerque culture, New Mexico culture and slivers of Native people and their cultural significance of just Albuquerque as a whole with the color of turquoise.

And so I used to see like all the girls, all the women that went through the program and ran at nationals wear that turquoise jersey. And so in high school, when I had found out that they had offered me a spot on the team, I just kept writing down that whole summer. I want to wear the turquoise jersey.

I want to wear the turquoise jersey because I wanted it so bad. And so that's how things really kicked off was like I had gotten a small offer from the University of New Mexico. And then when the coaching staff had changed like in 2023, everything kind of changed.

Everything took a shift. The coach that had recruited me had left. And so I was kind of left with a little bit of unknown.

And I decided that I wanted to go somewhere with a program still in place. And, you know, intact and still was like had a good foundation instead of one that was like shaky with the coaching change. So I decided to go to Northern Arizona University to run for Coach Mike Smith.

So that's where I've been for the last two years.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so cool. I love that you say that you didn't get a ton of offers, but you got one that mattered the most. Yeah.

And then when you moved schools, like you continued to make the best of it. And it sounds like you've done a lot of really cool stuff at NAU, even outside of your running. Can you tell us a little bit about like your studies?

What did you major in?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So throughout my undergrad at the University of New Mexico, I was a community health education major. And then when I got to Northern Arizona University, I decided to enter into the public health program.

So that's what I've been doing for the last two years. And so I graduated with my bachelor's in public health. And so I'm currently enrolled into the master's of public health program at NAU.

And the nice thing about it is that there's a health promotion branch, so they have an emphasis in indigenous health. So that's one thing I'm going into this fall.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. Okay. So you told me before about your capstone project, and I thought it was super, super cool.

So could you tell us a little bit more about that and how it connects with your running?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So this was a topic that came up earlier today, but with our capstone, we have a bunch of different organizations that come in and partner with NAU in creating a three-week intervention program that is in the health sector. So there's organizations like different local elementary schools, and the one that I was able to work with was Girls on the Run.

So I don't know if you're familiar with Girls on the Run, but it's a national nonprofit that works specifically with young girls in building self-esteem and confidence. So they have a bunch of different grades and age groups that they work with in their programs and really in the holistic side of running. And so it was actually a group of Native students that were able to design a three-week intervention program that centered on increasing Indigenous youth's presence within the program.

So one way we really did that was highlighting a Native student-athlete that runs for Coconino Community College, and her name is Amber Woody. And I actually went to high school with her, but we actually did a digital storytelling thread, and we did it primarily to kind of highlight her journey throughout her running career and more so trying to relate a lot of her stories and her values with a lot of the Native girls that do live in Northern Arizona. You know, there's a lot of Native population there, and we really wanted to try and get them involved with Girls on the Run and increase Indigenous presence within that way.

So that's the one thing we did. And then we also did an infographic and then a presentation at a local school. So it was really fun.

That was the highlight of my spring semester.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. That's such an important goal to strive for, and you're doing such good work. Is working with Native youth like a passion of yours?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, for sure. In the past, I've worked as a camp facilitator for Wings of America, and so that's been a really like a turning point for me in understanding what health strategies can look like for Native youth, especially in thinking about how it can be culturally relevant to them, to their cultural identity, because we have so many different prevention methods, strategies, but none that are really tailored towards Native people and considers a lot of like their backgrounds and their values. So that's one thing that I'm really have been interested in, in my studies is trying to figure out how to fit those programs into a more culturally relevant way for our people.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah, that's so cool. I love that you, you know, you're going to school and you're studying something that's so important, but you're tying it back to helping your community and helping young people succeed. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about like, you mentioned that you're going for your master's in public health as well.

What kind of like dream world, what would you want to do with that? Or like, what kind of impact would you like to have on the world with that?

[Ali Upshaw]

Wow, that's a good question. I think one thing for me, my dream world is that all Indigenous youth can have a high adequate access to resources to leverage their, I guess their pursuit of running collegiately or going to college or, you know, pursuing their athletic goals, because we center so much on education. And, you know, it would be such a dream to see a center that focuses on the athletic pursuits of Native kids because, you know, sports play so big of a role, like not in my life, but, you know, it's evident in the way that it provides a sense of belonging, identity, and gives a chance for Native kids to explore and connect back to their cultural identity, especially with running is so tied closely to our culture. And so, you know, sports play such a big role for Native youth. So that would be like my dream is like there's just a center, a health center that focuses on Native youth's athletic pursuit.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yes, that's so awesome. I love that. And I love that you want to help young people.

I feel like it's so, so beneficial if you can connect with your culture as well as with sports because they're so good for you, right? I want to ask you another like big question. If you could give any advice to Native youth when it comes to running or any pursuits they might want to go after, like what would you say to them?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, I like that question too. Oh my gosh, I think I would just say that, you know, there's a lot of, I guess, doubt that comes with pursuing your athletic dreams, your educational dreams. But I guess the one thing that I would say that's really helped me in continuing my goals is that there's a calling and there's like there's a dream and there's a calling for a reason.

And that is literally like you have the capacity to go for that dream. And there's, you know, you're so capable of pursuing that. And so I think that's one thing I would like keep saying to young kids because there's very ambitious kids out there, there's very ambitious people that have a thought that lingers in their mind and it's there for a reason.

So I would just say that like it's there for a reason and that you should pursue it and you're so capable of doing it.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wow, that's so important to hear. I think a lot of a lot of people, not just kids, but everyone needs to hear that and feel empowered to reach their goals. I want to highlight one of your big wins here.

And that's the Big Sky Conference Championships from 2024. So I was wondering if you could just tell us like a little bit about that race, like what you won and how that impacted you or how that experience was for you.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, so that was probably definitely one of my favorite races of the season. So if you don't know kind of like how race schedules work, so there's a there's a regular season and then you have your conference race and then your regional race and then the national race. So conference is kind of like the a lot of the people that are within the conference.

And so I run, so NAU is a part of like the Big Sky Conference. So, yeah, I don't know how much to say, but it was really fun because I've never, ever won a cross country race during my time in college. So that was actually my first ever like win in the college race like ever.

And it was really fun. It happened in my last my last season because college running is so hard. It's so tough.

There's so many, you know, it keeps getting better and better every year. So for me, it was a special moment because, you know, we had a race plan kind of like set in for that race. And so we my family got to be there to to see me have my first win.

So it was really fun. I really did enjoy that race.

[Ranger Eliana]

So, yeah, that's so awesome. That's a big win. And when you win something like that, does your team or your family or do you yourself treat yourself to anything?

Was there any like celebration?

[Ali Upshaw]

Some of those races, we some of them are just like very gritty. At the time it was in Idaho. So in the fall, so it was like kind of cold.

So the nice thing was that, you know, our team won and they let us go back to the hotel. They let us go back to the hotel. A lot of the times we don't get to go back to the hotel because it's same day trip back home to Flagstaff.

So we'll go straight from the race back to Flagstaff. And so you're sitting on the plane for like you're sitting down for a long time because we fly to Phoenix and then we have to drive back to Flagstaff. And we do that all after racing.

So, you know, we won that race and they let us go back to the hotel to take a shower and we left an hour after. But my grandma, she was really happy for me. She brought me like a bag of pinons.

So she's like, go ahead and take it with you. And I was like, OK, thank you. So that was what we did after.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so nice. And can you for the audience, let us know what are pinons?

[Ali Upshaw]

Oh, so those are a lot of the trees that you see. Let's see. So there's a pinon tree there.

So a lot of the times, like around, would you say August, September is a lot of times when the pinon nuts, they'll fall down from the tree. And so the way you kind of like prepare that is a lot of people prepare it very differently. But my family, we use a lot of salt.

And we stir it like in a skillet. So we go pinon picking like during around that time. So yeah, they just fall from the pinon tree.

And a lot of times people will sell them. But yeah, they're pretty good. So you would eat them as like regular sunflower seeds.

[Ranger Eliana]

It sounds so good. And I love that we have the trees right here. If you guys could see them to anyone listening to this podcast, they're like our short little pine trees here.

But this actually segues perfectly into my next question. So when we do these interviews, we like to ask a fun question. So I want to ask you, what is your favorite native food?

[Ali Upshaw]

My favorite native food. Wow. So there's a lot.

But I would say my favorite is it's called Neeshjizhii stew. So a lot of times it's like steamed corn. And then you'll have like with mutton with like sheep's meat.

And so it's that's like my favorite meal like ever. So like stew, all the stews that my grandma makes. That's my favorite.

I'm not big on like, I mean, I do love a navajo taco here and there. But stew, that's yeah. Sometimes I go back like home and I'm like, Grandma, like I'm coming back home and she'll be like cooking away and I'll be like, okay, thanks.

[Ranger Eliana]

That sounds so good right now. And you mentioned sheep. I saw that you grew up on a ranch.

So can you tell us like about what it's like where you're from? Like growing up on a ranch?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So I yeah, I grew up on a small ranch. We have like sheep, cows, horses.

My sister's really involved with barrel racing. So she does that with rodeo. But yeah, growing up, I used to remember this.

I was so busy in high school, like two times busier than I was in college, honestly, because it would be like, go to school at 8am. And then you spend all day three o'clock. And then you have practice from like three to six.

And then 6pm, you go back home, let's feed the horses, chase the sheep back in, chase the cows back in. And it would be done like when it's dark outside at that point. And that was like literally a weekday for me was like doing that consecutively.

And I always remember it. And I think about it sometimes and I'm like, dang. I was really, really busy.

And even when I go back home, I still get put to work. So yeah, so sometimes there's my grandma, she does not believe in rest days, honestly. She does not believe in rest days.

And sometimes we joke around with her like, dang, like, how are you like still going like sit down? And she's just still going. And but yeah, growing up on a ranch was like, definitely a part of myself that I guess, that I kind of, not many people, I guess, know.

So every time I'm, yeah, I guess in the city, it's so different. That life is so different, like urban life and res life. And going up on a ranch, they're different.

So every time I get to go home, I get kind of a little humble awakening of like, just going, going, going. And then I'm in this city where I'm like this urban kid and I get to, you know, take, lay down without getting yelled at.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so funny. And it's so funny that you say that life was harder in high school than in college when you were running. Yeah.

Also, because you mentioned like, being able to rest at the hotel as your reward for winning. I can tell you work really, really hard. I want to ask you, so like, you mentioned this summer, you're not running.

What is it like to not be running for a summer? Because you're such a hard worker. Like, is that weird?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, it is a little weird. Like, kind of, you know, I've taken the summers a lot more seriously in the past in terms of training. You know, I do run like consecutively still, but like not on the level in which like I've done past summers because I don't have a cross country season anymore.

So I've run out of all of my cross country eligibility. So for five consecutive years, I've done like my summers have just been filled with training and like focusing on the fall. And so it's really weird for me.

Like, I've been really trying to step out of like my comfort zone and like do new things and like kind of step away from training. But it's definitely a new period of my life where I'm trying to get used to it with like not having a cross country season. So yeah, it's a shift for sure.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah, I can definitely speak to that as well. I'm not a runner, but having graduated college recently, you know, it's like such a pivotable time for our identities as well. You kind of told me a little bit before about like what your future with running might look like.

I was wondering if you were interested in speaking about that at all, because like there's actually, she told me there's a lot of business that goes into a running career. And I think that's so interesting.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, I know the business side of running is so, it's so complicated in different ways. It's definitely something that I don't really, I'm not fully knowledgeable in. But, you know, there are some, you know, post collegiate opportunities to run professionally and insights for me, which I really do want to do.

And that's been like a goal ever since, you know, halfway through my college career. And, you know, that's been a goal for me. And that's something I really want to do.

But there's a lot of logistics that go behind it. And yeah, the business world is a little scary with, you know, a lot of things. There's a lot of language that's used differently in the business world of running that I kind of got to get used to.

So yeah, I have a couple of opportunities, insights, but I also might pursue a half year to run my outdoor season, because I don't have any more cross country or indoor. So if you don't know, a lot of like collegiate athletes, they run all year. So it's cross country, then they have indoor in the wintertime.

And then in the spring, it's straight into outdoor season. On the outdoor track, you get all three seasons throughout the year. Whereas like basketball, it's just that season in, you know, starting from winter all the way to spring.

So I only have outdoor left. And so I'm still working that whole thing out of should I go back to finish that? Or should I work with what I have now in terms of like value?

So, you know, the last, they say in the business world of running that, you know, you're as good as your last race, which kind of sucks with the kind of like the credibility you build throughout your college career that kind of like sets you up for post collegiate opportunities, which is a little hard and comes with a little bit of pressure to do well. But I would say that like, you know, talking with other people that I did set myself up pretty good to explore different avenues, but it's it's very still kind of like in the unknown.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah, that definitely sounds stressful. Like there could be a lot of pressure on you. But you're also so talented and you have so much going on in your life, like with your studies as well.

Going back for your master's is such a big deal. And I'm so, so impressed. I'm like, I don't know, no matter what you do, I know it's going to be great.

Thank you. Oh, of course. Okay, so I'm going to kind of wrap it up here before we open it up if the audience has any questions.

But I just want to ask, like, is there anything else you want to leave us with or leave like all the people listening to this with? That's a big question.

[Ali Upshaw]

No, I'm really glad everybody came. I really appreciate that. And this is really such a unique experience for me being at the Canyon is like in for a podcast that I guess I would never thought I'd be a part of is something.

Yeah, just so new to me. And it brings a different perspective of what the Canyon means, you know, you know, Kelli had mentioned a lot about like, you know, the whole purpose for the podcast. And why it's called Grand Canyon speaks is, you know, letting the Canyon know that we as native people are still here.

And we're speaking into the Canyon and letting it know that we're still here. And so that something that has really resonated with me during my time here and just a whole different approach to what I usually come to the Canyon for.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. Thank you so much for coming here and, and sharing your voice with us. This is a big day for me to my first interview.

And Ali is so, so wonderful. She's so talented. And she's so easy to talk to.

So I really, really appreciate you coming here and speaking to the Canyon with us.

[Ali Upshaw]

Thank you so much. And you did really good for your first interview too. So yeah.

[Ranger Eliana]

Oh, thank you. Okay, our work is not done yet. I want to see if anybody here in our audience has any questions for Ali before the sun sets.

[Audience]

I was just curious to know, did you end up being faster than your mom? Since I know that was a goal.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yes. Yeah, no, I joke about it with her because my grandpa used to just talk nonstop about her and I was like, I made it a mission to just be faster. But yeah, no, I appreciate that question.

[Meranden]

What has the difference been from running on the rez? And then running in a place where there's not a lot of indigenous runners?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, no, that was a really big shift for me. And when I first left the res, it's so different. I feel like especially because, you know, running on for all native high school, you run with a lot of other Navajo kids and you train with a lot of Navajo kids.

And you're so used to that environment. And you're taken from one place that you've known for so long and you've been around the people for so long. And then you go to a completely urban area where all the runners are non-native and even some international.

In my first year running, we had girls from Norway, Germany, and all different places that I wasn't used to. And I think the main difference was just the culture shock of just getting used to an urban environment and kind of like almost feeling lonely, in a sense, being the only one that's going through this. So we had a Native student-athlete summit in Indiana like two, three weeks ago.

And that was a conversation that a lot of Native student-athletes had at that summit where it was like, sometimes you do feel lonely. And it's really hard to connect with some other non-native athletes that don't know your background. But that's the one thing about sports and running is that it really keeps you grounded in goal setting and your personal identity of kind of like almost in a way like running has a very cultural significance to me.

And it's like when I'm running, I can always know. I always know that I'm still connected to my culture. I'm still doing the same thing that I'm doing that I would be doing at home.

So I guess, yeah, just that culture shock of everything was the main difference.

[Audience]

I have a question. There's been a big theme in this talk of like working hard and glimmers of rest. And I'm curious as to what rest does look like for you.

How do you take care of yourself as a runner? And almost going all the way to like what's advice you would give to other runners of how to take care of themselves?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, that's a good question. I think rest for me, especially with, I guess, higher level running competition. That's one thing our coaches like really stress upon is like rest and recovery.

But I would say like with training, I usually leave a day where I'm completely off. I don't keep going consecutively every day throughout the week. And I guess one thing is you have to like really listen to your body.

It's not bad to take a rest day and it's not bad to like miss a day or so. And I think that's one thing that I would give advice about. But in those heavier mileage week for me, it's like completely off of my feet like and making sure that I have like a lot of food throughout the day, I guess I would say.

So, yeah.

[Ranger Eliana]

Well, thank you so much, Ali. Again, I do want to say that I feel like you're such a great role model for young people. And yeah, all that you do is really so, so amazing.

So, thank you for being here. And thank you to our audience as well. And we will be here if you guys have any questions for us.

So, thanks, guys. Have a good night.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we're on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 02 Jan 2026 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/2D1BC4CA-CD82-D116-42B41521CBD19EDA.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-2D6A8E2A-A726-FD8F-33B740BBDA255963 Kyle Sumatzkuku Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service Welcome to the first episode of Season 3! This episode is about Kyle Sumatzkuku, a Hopi runner from Mishongnovi. ALCC intern, Meranden, talks with Kyle about his running journey and what it was like to qualify and run in the Boston Marathon. He also talks about his experiences becoming a cross-country coach and mentoring youth through Wings of America. 2710 no full 1 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Kyle Sumatzkuku: It pretty much opened my eyes and it gave me a perspective about how truly Hopi running is not only just about this physical capability, but pretty much just running with your heart.

Ranger Grace: Welcome back to season three of Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Ranger Grace.

Ranger Dan: And this is Ranger Dan.

Ranger Grace: In this episode, Meranden sat down with Kyle Sumatzkuku to discuss his career as a runner.

Ranger Dan: He shared Hopi's connections to running and how it's a significant aspect of Hopi culture.

Ranger Grace: Kyle grew up running at the Moenkopi Day School and is now competing in races like the Boston Marathon.

Ranger Dan: Take a listen as Kyle reflects on his journey and we hope you enjoy.

Meranden: Kyle, would you like to go ahead and introduce yourself?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: [Speaks Hopi] Hello, good evening, everyone. My name is Kyle Sumatzkuku. My Hopi name is Leetayo. It means Fox or Running Fox. That name was given to me when I was initiated. And that name was given by the Coyote clan, who are my ceremonial parents. I am of the Corn clan. I am from the village of Mishongnovi, generally known as Second Mesa. But I do live in the village of Moenkopi, generally known as Third Mesa.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And pretty much, we are matriarchal and matrilineal tribe. So we always follow our mom's side of the family. So I am born from the Corn clan. And for my father's side is Sun clan, who is from the village of Moenkopi. Yeah, so it's a great honor and a good pleasure to be here to share our evening with you all. So I am 29 years old. I don't look like it. So yeah.

Meranden: Awesome. So I'm really happy to have you here, Kyle. Just really off the bat, have you been to the Grand Canyon before?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yes, I have been here since when I was going to school at the Moenkopi Day School. We used to come here for field trips and get on the train and just visit these sites here, especially the Watchtower. And it was, all in all, like a really good childhood memory of mine, even though it's just in our backyards of Hopi land and Diné land. So it's always a pleasure to come back. But then again, we just have to be careful when we visit this place, because it's just a very sacred place to us. We kind of treat this place very gentle and a gentle spirit that lies here. So it's always good to come back and be here near the canyon, near the sun and the skies. So yeah.

Meranden: Awesome. Yeah. And I know, like you mentioned, it's really, really sacred. And I mentioned in the beginning, it has a lot of different perspectives through these different tribes. They're not all the same. They all have different meanings, different stories, things like that.

Meranden: So we always mention to our guests, our visitors here, that you treat it as a living landscape. You treat it as your own home. You don't leave trash here. You take care of it just like anything else. So like I mentioned, it's very sacred to everybody here. A lot of tribes call the canyon home.

Meranden: So right off the bat, like I mentioned, this season for season three, we talked about it having a theme of Indigenous athletes. Something that you do is running. And that's something I would really, really like to highlight today. So how did you get started with your running?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I started running when I was a little kid. Just running in the village at recess at the Moenkopi Day School. And, you know, just doing it during our free time and downtime. And just having fun with our childhood friends at the Moenkopi Day School. Because the Moenkopi Day School had like a big giant compound. And you can just absolutely just run a lot of miles on it.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was definitely a childhood core to me. Because the Moenkopi Day School is literally in our backyard. And we can always just visit that little recess compound. And just be active and have fun with our friends. And, you know, yeah.

Meranden: Yeah, I remember that too. Because, I mean, we grew up in the same area. And we used to go there with my siblings too. And play in that same place. And, you know, like everywhere back home, there's a lot of different places you can go running. And we were always told not to be lazy. So we always went out and went running and things like that. So, you know, like I mentioned, running is very, very important. Not just for your health, much like the canyon as well. It's super important to the tribes here. But what importance does running have to Hopi?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Ever since I started running as a kid. And just pretty much going through the journey as being born. And getting initiated. And getting older. And becoming more mature. I didn't start to take running seriously when I was between 6th to 7th grade.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: By that time frame, I was already pretty much being shared the knowledge of. That there was a ceremonial races going on at my home village. And it pretty much opened my eyes. It gave me a perspective about how truly Hopi running is not only just about this physical capability. But it has its spiritual, mental. And pretty much just running with your heart.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And I have uncles who pretty much took me in. And showed me the whole Hopi art of running. And especially with my dad. My dad shared a lot of stories about why we do these ceremonial races. And these various races that we have on Hopi, it takes a lot of maturity. And to understand why we do it. And we have these various races. That we have snake dance race. We have the flute dance race. And we have the basket dance race. And we have clan races in our home village. And pretty much it represents all of walk of life.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it makes the connection back here to the canyon. So I didn't start doing those races when I started to understand and get much more older. Yeah, so it just took a lot of maturity. And clearly, what's the more important reason to carry on with those races until this day.

Meranden: Yeah, and when you run these races, are there a lot of other individuals who run with you as well?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, so we have pretty much good runners back at home. But all throughout Hopi. So it's always good to see their faces again. And they're always eager to like pretty much show up. And just have a grand old time. And just place down some prayers for not only for ourselves. Not only for our families and our loved ones. But pretty much for all living things out there. And having it connect with the ceremony itself too as well. Because it brings the might of the earth not only to our earth. But to people's hearts too as well.

Meranden: Yeah, we've talked about how running is not just for your health. But it's also a form of prayer. We do it for moisture. We do it for a lot of cultural reasons. So that running aspect is very important to Hopi. You know, you mentioned these races. And you didn't really start getting serious with it at a younger age. Until, you know, you start going to school. What was running like for you as a student growing up? Like middle school or high school? What was that running experience like?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Ever since I started running at the Moenkopi Day School, I didn't really take running that serious. Matter of fact, a true story here. When I started running at the Moenkopi Day School, I would always start leading out the runners. I would lead the runners. And then by then, probably halfway, I would see like one of my teammates or my good friends. My good buddies who are like hunched over or hurt.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Or you know, my empathy. Me, I'm showing compassion to my fellow running mates. I would stop and I would go back and check on them while the other runners would pass. And I didn't know anything about competition back then. You know, I was just there just hanging out, having a good time with my friends and running with them. Because we always ran with each other during recess, clan runs, and even our training.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So when it came to races, I was so compassionate to my fellow teammates. Even when they have a side ache or they're about to puke or anything. And I would stay behind and check up on them. And then by the time when the race is just about over, we'll still be in the back of the pack. And we'll still be like lollygagging, having a chat or just talking to each other. And while we just see the other runners by us, just past us.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And then once we cross the finish line, my parents, my mom and dad will ask me like, hey, how come you weren't in front of the other runners? I was like, oh, I was just waiting for my friend.

Meranden: We talked about the races that you did growing up, or just running in general and being careful with the teammates that you had. I know you also did other kind of running such as community stuff, maybe like Just Move It, your own kind of races. What was that experience like doing those kind of bigger races rather than running for school?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was definitely like another realm for me to step in. Just maturing from elementary to junior high to high school races, running against schools, but stepping into bigger races, going to Australia Down Under to race an international race when I was a junior in high school, which was quite an experience and I loved it. But after that, I kind of dug deep and thought about it more like, wow, I actually went to Down Under to Australia to race there.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But then again, maybe I want to go to the West Coast or to the East Coast to race. And then after all, racing against reservations, to reservations, to going from city to another country, always wanted to come back and race in the United States. But furthermore, racing at Shiprock Marathon in New Mexico, that was definitely a really good opener for me. And it pretty much prolonged to going to the East Coast to run the Boston Marathon.

Meranden: Awesome. Now that you mentioned the Boston Marathon, you ran that in 2021, correct?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yes, correct.

Meranden: Cool. Yeah. And could you talk a little bit more about that? What was the experience running in Boston? Did you have to qualify or what was the process like getting ready for the Boston Marathon?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So the Boston Marathon itself, I did not know. I was kind of like, it was quite a long shot for me because I didn't know you have to qualify in your age category to hit a qualifying time or a Boston time qualifier, BTQ, as they say. And honestly, you had to run a marathon just to qualify for Boston.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So when I started doing my research, I was kind of like a little bit hesitant and a little bit scared and a little bit anxious because I didn't know what I was walking into. And it all started from the spring of 2019 and then carried on to summer. So I did sign up for the Shiprock Marathon that is held in Shiprock, New Mexico.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And that marathon is pretty much a big gig, says so in the newspaper. And so I did train for that. And I was training in Lancaster, California. I spent a semester out there at Valley. And my coach, Coach Clay, he was there and he did mention that, hey, you can be a marathon runner and you do have the endurance and you have the aerobic capacity. I was like, oh, OK, let's do it. So qualifying for the race, did the Shiprock Marathon. And I was 25 years old then. And I did have a time standard in mind, just hitting six flat pace, hoping to beat three hours, particularly in my age category.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I was supposed to hit three hours even just to qualify for the Boston Marathon. But I was a little bit, probably 20 to 30 minutes ahead of three hours. So it was quite a shocker. I didn't know that the Shiprock Marathon was going to be a Boston qualifying course to time. And yeah, so.

Meranden: So when you ran the Shiprock Marathon, what was your time?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was 2:38:08. Yeah.

Meranden: Two hours and 38 minutes. Oh, my God. And your pace was like six?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was between six flat to 5:55 pace.

Meranden: And that's 26 miles, right?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: 26.2 miles.

Meranden: Oh, my God. That's crazy. And then when you did the Boston Marathon, how did that turn out? What was it like going from? I know you mentioned you went to a lot of different places to run. And this is one of the biggest races, biggest marathons that is out there for runners. What was that experience like?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: The build up to it, the lead up to it was something very monumental. And, you know, once I hit the qualifying standard for Boston, it was my first Boston Marathon ever. And, you know, the build up to it was just absolutely just nerve wracking.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was very nervous. And, you know, I try to keep my composure having my loved ones, my family, my mom and dad, you know, the whole community, the whole village, just to keep my composure while doing the training, not only the training, having the strong encouragement and the high spirits to lead up to the race like that. And, you know, I was getting absolutely just mighty prayers, some good encouragement from not only from my village, but, you know, from all over from different tribes and surrounding reservations.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was definitely something worth thinking about to this day, because it was quite an experience and it was so heavy. And I still reflect about it to this day. And, you know, it was like, how are we going to get there? Of course, we need the money. Yeah, there was a checklist where, yeah, I did one check, check the box off was qualifying for Boston. What's next?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, doing like a fundraiser and then getting the word out. And honestly, the Boston Marathon is annually held on the month of April. But during that time frame, it was kind of uncertain times.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it was kind of, you know, unwary because the president of the United States of the year of 2022 to 2021, you know, the pandemic happened. COVID hit, you know, all races were canceled, all races were postponed. But for Boston, it was pretty much postponed. And then it was pretty much canceled. And then it led on to virtual race during that time. And annually, it was held in April.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it was always held on Monday, Patriots Day. But it was a blessing in disguise for me that Boston during that time, went through all that segment. And then it came back, made the announcement saying that, oh, Boston is going to be held in the month of October, which was kind of surprising.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was going to be kept at that date and postponed to October 20, October 11, 2021. But during that time, during that day, it was held, the race was held on Indigenous Peoples Day. So whatever, whatever natural occurrence was that, you know, it was definitely a journey for me to take on.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was something that out there naturally, out there was, you're going to run this race, no matter what the setbacks are from the previous races, from qualifying, going through the trials and tribulations leading up to Boston. So it took me just about almost two years just to, you know, get ready for the Boston Marathon and race on the month of October 11, 2021. And, you know, it was something powerful and mighty.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And knowing that it was going to be on Indigenous Peoples Day, normally the race would be on Patriots Day in the month of April during springtime. So it was something that I still think about to this day. And, you know, just trying to wrap my mind around it and to share with you all, it's something very mighty.

Meranden: Yeah, that's awesome. Because, you know, during this time you talked about, it was time of uncertainty with, you know, COVID happening. And then, like you mentioned, that blessing of the sky is happening now on October of Indigenous Peoples Day.

Meranden: That's really cool that you got to, you know, think about running not just for yourself, but your whole community, your whole, like all the cultures, all the traditions, things like that. It's really cool that you had that special honor of doing that and having a race like that. And then I know over time, you mentioned that through all this running, you have achieved a lot of goals. You've been able to check the list off the bucket list of, you know, running this Boston Marathon.

Meranden: As you continue, you know, you mentioned you're 29, still very young. What are some goals that you created for yourself that, as a runner, that you hope to achieve in the future?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I pretty much have long-term goals and I have short-term goals. But sometimes goals can just be elusive. Sometimes you can make them achieve and fulfill them and be successful with them.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But sometimes you just have to check back and, you know, reach those goals. And, you know, just enduring the journey of those trials and tribulations and going through the process, you know, it takes a lot where you have to go back and think about to yourself and being like, hey, I got this. What if you have these nagging doubts?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: You have these insecurities and whatnot. What if I'm not going to make it? Or what if I'm not going to get the Boston Marathon qualifying time? And, you know, just sticking to that plan, you know, it takes time. It takes effort. It takes a lot of, you know, all these little things just to make it happen, not only the physicality, but the spiritual-wise, the mental-wise.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, just enduring the journey of running Shiprock Marathon was my goal of qualifying for Boston. I ran a 2:38:08 at the Shiprock Marathon back in 2019. And then once I fulfilled the Boston Marathon back in October 11, 2021, I ran a 2:26:17 at my first Boston Marathon debut. So there was a huge gap there. And running Boston twice was something very fulfilling that I had to relive and come back because the first time was very successful. But the second time I went back, you know, it was held in the month of April where it was kind of hot.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So, you know, just reflecting back on the first Boston Marathon debut, going back again in 2022, always wanted to make a bigger margin of from 2:26:00 to the second Boston Marathon debut. But times during that time, I didn't get to fulfill it, you know. So I did have to step back and just to reflect on what possibly will happen during that time of the second debut.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But yeah, so goals can be elusive. Sometimes you can stick to them. Sometimes there's some mishaps, hiccups, you know, things like that can happen and occur in a marathon race just like that.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But, you know, I did the second marathon debut. I did have my trials and tribulations where I had tears. I had breakdowns and my spirits was a bit cracked and more so broken.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But definitely, I will honestly want to go back and make another debut sometime, hopefully next year or the following year. But, you know, the future is bright. So we can always carry on this prayer of sticking to the goal and making a big impact and trying to overcome those fears, those nagging doubts and those insecurities as a runner.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it can definitely be pretty much a mental battle with yourself. But then again, you surround yourself with good people, with good teammates who definitely encourage you, not only they admire your running, admire yourself and the way you carry yourself. But, you know, they always love seeing people, seeing yourself out there running and continue to try and continue to push the envelope in and just give it all you got. But, you know, just don't give up. Don't relent, you know, don't be so hard on yourself about it because I had my times there and, you know, I still think about that time. It was kind of scary.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, it was kind of finding myself alone during that time frame. But days passed by and, you know, having my loved ones and my family saying, it's OK, it's OK, you didn't get to hit the goal that you had in mind. But then again, I kind of thought about it like, yeah, I didn't get to hit it.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But then again, you know, I still have more years ahead of me just to fulfill them. And, you know, it can be fun sometimes and, you know, you just can't get enough of it. But then again, just thinking about it, having the character, having the strong spirit to carry on and to carry forth and let people know that don't give up, don't relent. And don't be hard about yourself, about not achieving your goals and continue forward and have that strong will in your heart.

Meranden: Yeah, awesome. I do want to mention, based on everything that you just now said, it is very important to have that kind of mindset, you know, taking a step back, understanding that I have these goals, they are there. And, you know, sometimes there are going to be those times where it is going to be hard. But then you also understand, like, this is just part of the journey. This is what makes me stronger. And having that mindset is really good.

Meranden: And it's really nice to see you overcome them, accomplish them, and then just continue to have more goals. So it's really cool to see how you've really transformed throughout the years, throughout the different races that you've done. And, you know, with this running experience you had just as a runner, you've also been able to expand your knowledge to other individuals, such as coaching. So over time, you've been able, actually last year, coach back home in your own local community. What has that experience been like for you?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It's been unique, definitely. It was something new for me. But then again, I wanted to take time and donate my time to the youth. And, you know, just to share my experiences with them, even though when they're young. Because it's always good to start out young for running. And, you know, you can see them blossom and see them grow and see them mature as a runner.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Not only a runner, but, you know, they can mature as a student, and then a runner, and then a good person last. And, you know, it's always good to see them pretty much blossom like that. And, you know, sometimes it's always good to have them endure the trials and tribulations.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, there's times where seeing them race, seeing them, it's not only about the training, but then again, it goes further more than more than the training. You know, you have the mentality state and you got your spiritual. And then, you know, just to have those things aligned and, you know, having them blossom into a mature runner. And, you know, I did take the time to share my experiences at the Tuba City boarding school. I did promote from there and then went on to high school. I ran there my seventh and eighth grade year.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was definitely a unique experience for me because definitely I was looking at those kids. I was like, man, I was a seventh and eighth grade running those high temperatures where it's just so hot. And, you know, and it's always good to stop by and just share miles with them.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, sometimes it's not only the running part, but showing them discipline and enthusiasm and optimism and just sharing all those good components about sometimes, yeah, the training's there. But when you get into a race, like, you know, it's always good to be there right by their side and encourage them and, you know, tell them not to give up and not to relent or be so hard about themselves. Because I did experience over a dozen times with runners and, you know, they sometimes come up to me and be like, Kyle, I can't do this.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Why, like, how come I'm not hitting this pace? How come I'm not hitting this time? Or by the time my competitor, my running next to me, he does this.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I'll be like, you gotta sometimes just not so be hard on yourself about it, you know. And it takes time, it takes effort, and it takes the maturity. And, you know, not only being a coach at Tuba City Boarding School, but I did spend some time with Wings of America.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Wings of America is based out of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and they're all around indigenous Native American youth running base. And they do have some summer running camps out all over the reservation of the Four Corners area. And I was very fortunate to be a facilitator slash coach to donate my time with them and meeting other runners from Pueblo, from Diné, from youth all over, just 11 tribes, as they say.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, taking on from there, I was pretty much had an opportunity to even coach on the Hopi Reservation, where we have Hopi Wellness Center. And we did have our two second annual Hopi Running Camp at the Hopi Civic Center. And they were kind enough for allowing me to coach them and have a three-day running camp with the youth.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And so from Tuba City Boarding School to Wings of America to donating my time to Hopi Wellness Center for a running camp all in all, it was just a unique experience. And sometimes, you know, I do see all these kids. You'll be like, hey, you're the Tuba City Boarding School runner or the coach.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And I'll be like, yeah, hey, how's it going? And, you know, and be like, oh, hey, I seen you at the Wings of America Running Camp. Or I seen you at the Just Move It. And I seen you at the Hopi Wellness Running Camp, the Hopi Running Camp. And, you know, just so on and so forth. And, you know, so I do take the time and I do take, you know, the time to talk to them. And, you know, just pretty much sharing my knowledge of running. And not only like the running, but the cultural and aspirations for them. And it's always open. I'm always willing to share. And yeah, so.

Meranden: Awesome. Yeah. And I know you mentioned talking about sharing your knowledge and, you know, yourself using that donation of your time to the youth, to your community, things like that. And over time, you've been able to show that as a coach. Since we have this platform here, and I know you actually want to show something here. Would you like to talk a little bit of what that is?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yes. So these are pretty much photographs from one of the traditional races that we have on Hopi. And it's a basket dance race. And these are one of the ceremonial races that we have during the time of fall. And, you know, I had a special honor and privilege that one of my uncles does who got to photograph the run. And, you know, it's definitely something so monumental. And I love those photos. It's definitely, I love physical copies. And it's something that I reflect on.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it's a constant reminder that, you know, this is what we do. And this is what we have on Hopi. And I want to share that with you all. And I want to share it with the youth and the young ones out there that, yeah, you are always welcome to run these races, the flute dance, the snake dance, the basket dance, and even the clan runs. So, yeah, so.

Meranden: For our audience listening online, what are some of the pictures that are on there? What are some of them on there?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Oh, yeah, so.

Meranden: Okay, like there's some with your family.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Oh, yeah, so I do have some with my family. Yeah, so this was here with my family. So I do have my uncle. And then I have my mom and my other mom. And then I have one of my good buddies from the village. And this was all taken post-race.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And along with my uncle here, who had taught me the Hopi art of running. And, you know, I can't thank him enough of how much he blossomed and matured me into a Hopi runner and taught me about these Hopi ceremonial races. And, you know, and so, yeah, so.

Meranden: Yeah, those are some nice photos. I like seeing those. They remind me of, like, even my own, like seeing the one. Like you mentioned, having physical photos, physical copies is really, really nice. So, yeah, like you mentioned, the whole thing of the importance of it, passing it on to the youth, for anyone. This is also for anyone in the audience or those online listening. What are some advice that you would give to upcoming runners of any age, even youth, that would like to be upcoming runners or athletes?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, so, you know, it's always good to start out. You know, you can start out small. And, you know, you don't need any fancy machines or anything. You just need a pair of running shoes and some good running attire and just run those trails. And, you know, I did start out when I was young, just from recess to having time with my friends. And, you know, it's definitely a journey to take on. And it's always good to share. And, you know, so it's always good to start out small. I did start out as a late bloomer, as they say.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I wasn't fast back at the Moenkopi Day School. And I was quite of a chubby kid. I do have a photo. When I first started out running at a Hopi running camp back in 2007, and I was a bit heavy set. But then again, I kind of didn't. I just ran for fun. But then again, from fun, it kind of matured myself into. So, you know, you can always start out small. And, you know, you don't need any fancy machines, just a pair of good running sneakers. And then just have yourself, have your own solitude, have your good efforts and have, you know, finding that happy place in your heart where just running, having a jog, having a walk, having a brisk walk. Or, you know, it's always fun to take on a journey like that. And, you know, sometimes you're hooked.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Sometimes you get the running bug, as they say. And, you know, it's always good to start out young as I have and start out slow. So it's always good to start out where you started. And it always starts from home. And, you know, I always thought about starting out when I was young and, you know, just evolving, maturing, taking on this like a stepping stone. And, you know, it's quite an experience when you get older and you think about these things.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And you'd be like, wow, I actually had a slow start. And, you know, it was quite of a time of my life and, you know, something to reflect on. So out there, people who want to get into the sport of running, you know, it's good for your wellness. It's good for your health. It's good for your spirit. It's good for your mind. And it's just good all around your well-being. And yeah, so.

Meranden: Yeah, that's good advice. I actually have a half marathon coming up in October. So I'm taking it slow, definitely. Running those lower mileages and then also learning how to get a pretty good pace. And also like back home, there's a lot of places you can run. All the hills, all the different places to run. So throughout this interview, we actually have a fun question for our guests. The fun question is, if you could have any indigenous food right now, what would it be?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I was always spoiled back at home, especially on Hopi. You know, we're farmers and, you know, everything is based around corn, beans and watermelon, squash. And we have heirloom seeds that we plant every summer.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, based off those foods, everything famous about our Hopi food is probably piki known as. It's a bread. It's blue. It's made out of juniper ashes. And it comes off and it's baked on a stone that it's black and has animal fat brains to sheep brains. And it's casted with watermelon seeds. That's how it gets that really good ashy texture. Kyle Sumatzkuku: But probably it will be piki. And nöqwivi, of course, that is made from white corn. And it's very filling. And it has can be whatever whatever kind of meat, rabbit meat or even sheep meat. Also, somiviki, it's pretty much blue corn. And it has a really good texture of the ashy from the juniper ash taste. And yeah, and it's very sweet. So I would say those are my top three. And watermelon, of course. And, you know, I can go on about these special foods. And they're definitely a delicacy that we have on Hopi land. And also frybread and the notorious Indian taco.

Meranden: Yeah, those are all really good ones. And usually we say, I kind of say the same thing because I like to say my kind of food. I would say nöqwivi, piki is a good one because everyone's like, what is that? But we try to say like, sometimes we explain as like a piece of paper. And if you were to like, literally, if I wrote this paper, it kind of looks like that. It's like that thin. And you just eat it with like you dip it in a lot. You can dip it in tea, you can dip in coffee, dip it in your soup, things like that. But those are some good answers.

Meranden: As we are beginning to wrap up this interview, I have one last question for you. And what would you like to leave this audience here? And then our audience online, what would you like to leave them with today?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, so all in all, take care of yourselves. You know, live a happy life. You know, it's always good to take care of your well-being, your mental state, your spiritual, even your heart. And, you know, Ronnie just taught me a lot. And to connect with not only with people, not only with humans, but along with in depth of connecting with the land, connecting with our animals out there, and the vegetation, the birds, and even the bugs out there that just roam around this earth. And, you know, it's always good to connect with Mother Earth herself.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it's always good to just take time out of your day to go out there and just to run or take a good morning walk or a good morning jog out there and think about what we have in this life. And, you know, we only have one life here on this earth. And, you know, it's always good to live it every day like it's your last, you know, sharing good memories, sharing good cheers, birthdays, weddings, you know, all those good things in life.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it's always good to have good pals, good mates, good buddies next to you and whatever purpose, whatever life that you're trying to fulfill with your spouse, a best friend and with your loved ones and family. And, you know, keep them close. And we always think about our loved ones back at home and especially, you know, around this world. Because, you know, we only have one life. We only live on one earth. We only have one life to give.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, so just take care of yourselves out there wherever you go, whatever you're doing, whatever morning ritual you have, you know, the simple rituals, having a morning coffee, having morning tea with your family. And, you know, so take care of your well-being because you have a purpose here on this earth. And it's always good to check on one another even though you haven't seen them for a while, you haven't seen them for, you know, how many days out.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So, yeah, and just be good to yourself. And, you know, there's some hard, rough patches, muddy patches out there that we endure, that we have not only, you know, at our home base or, you know, it could be at work or the daily life, the daily routines that you have, you know, just take time and take time for yourself to reflect and, you know, just to show yourself the loving, having that spoiled moment with yourself, you know, go out there and spoil yourself. It doesn't hurt to spoil yourself, to hang out with friends and, or even by your lonesome, to visit a canyon like this or to visit your favorite place that makes you happy. Not only by yourself, but with others that you want to spend time with.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So life is good. Life can be breathtaking. Life can be heavy at times. Life can be all these sorts of emotions that can deliver to us, but we're only human. You know, we had these five senses of us and, you know, I never, we never take life for granted because, you know, we have our grandparents, we have my parents, we have our parents and, you know, we have our little ones to think about. So visitors who visit this special place, you know, it's always going to be here, whatever place that you have on your trip or wherever you want to go that you call your special place, you know, take care of it.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Just give it back the blessings that you endured just to give it back to the place because it made you so happy and it made you feel composed and during those highs and lows, it made you so better. So all in all, look out for one another, love each other. You know, it doesn't matter where, who we are, where we come from, you know, we treat each other with respect and with the love that we want, the love and respect that we want to treat them and how they want to treat us.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And in Hopi, we have these five principles and it's these principles that are endured for Hopi, but out there, not only for Hopi, but out there with the 11 tribes, they have their own principles. But in Hopi, we have [speaks Hopi] and I'm forgetting another one. Pretty sure my dad will let me know. But those five principles, those pretty much live around us Hopis. And, you know, if we fulfill those five principles, yeah, we are Hopi. But, you know, treating land, treating every little living being out there with respect, with harmony, with good intentions, with, you know, with what we have on this earth.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it follows back with walking this earth, running this earth, you know, having to see a good, a new day, a new sunrise, a new sunset. And, you know, so it's always good to give back to those elements out there and the bugs and the birds and all the living things out there that surround us, that we hear from the morning of the a.m. and even at the dusk until evening. So in Hopi, we say, [speaks Hopi] you know, just take care of yourself, live a strong, happy, loving, and a good-hearted life out there and remain strong out there, take care of your loved ones and, you know, take, be careful and look out for one another, especially wherever you go and wherever your destination will be.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So thank you and yeah, take care.

Meranden: Owi, askwali for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and we look forward to seeing you here again. So thank you.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Owi, kwa’kwa. Thank you for having me.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park.

Ranger Jonah: To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Mon, 15 Dec 2025 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/CB8A0B82-EDBB-6DCB-5CA76F4644CE4EED.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-CB9BDBE8-0B23-42AE-0655449AC4724442 Season Three Trailer Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service We’re back! Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks with Season 3, a season dedicated to indigenous athletes of the 11 associated tribes of Grand Canyon National Park. This series dives into their athletic journeys and how much of an impact sports have on their tribal communities. 111 no trailer 3

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Kyle Sumatzkuku]

It took me just about almost two years just to get ready for the Boston Marathon.

[Audre Etsitty]

Our elders do say horses are sacred (speaks Navajo), the horses are medicine.

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

And having someone who looks like you and has your same, similar lived experiences in this field of work is really important to just go to and lean on.

[Kyle Awelagte]

I feel it's more than running, like just, you know, getting hyped for a race in that competitive area. But I see it more as like a way of healing.

Hello.

Hello.

Hello.

And welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks, an online podcast that highlights the voices of tribal members who call the Grand Canyon home.

Welcome to season three, a season dedicated to highlighting indigenous athletes and learning about the impact that sports have on their tribal communities.

Tune in January 2026 to hear their stories.

[Kelli Jones]

And I think that's something that I love, you know, when I'm an interpreter here to kind of talk about this history. It might be hard history, but it's also showing the resiliency of what our people have gone through.

[Lynette Lewis]

We don't have scouts, college scouts coming out to the reservations to watch our kids play. So that's why, you know, tournaments like NABI were created. This was for the exposure.

[Ali Upshaw]

You know, names like Alvina Begay, Billy Mills, all native runners that have run at such a high level. And they've always, I guess, shown me that, like, if they can do it, I can do it too.

[Wendi Lewis]

Then you ever run on Hopi, they'll thank you in our language because we recognize that as prayer.

[Jason Amador]

So I would always say to never give up, keep going, and chase your dreams. Because for me, I was a kid in the stand from a small reservation. Now I'm a six-foot guard playing at Grand Canyon.

So for me, like, you can achieve anything you want.

]]> ]]> Fri, 03 Oct 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/4A25E096-D8D0-DC5D-3478ADFE6754FB4D.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-4A2FCFF1-AF6E-0F28-5E2971CCF3E024CC April Unkestine Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Annie sat down with Zuni jeweler, April Unkestine. Her work has been made popular by collectors and celebrities such as Brian May. Like many Zuni jewelers, April incorporates the Zuni sun face design into her channel inlay work but with her own twist. She also shares the cultural significance of the Grand Canyon in relation to Zuni and its history. Take a listen to this episode and enjoy! 1896 no full 21 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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April Unkestine: Whenever you see an artist, remember that, you know, it wasn't machine-made. It was something that they made from their heart, something that, you know, they put a lot of effort in working on and be appreciative.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, appreciative.

Lakin: Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin. Meranden: And this is Meranden. Lakin: In this episode, Ranger Annie interviewed a multi-talented artist from the Zuni Pueblo.

Meranden: April Unkestine is best known for her inlay jewelry and traditional designs such as the sun face.

Lakin: She shares her experience as a demonstrator and the symbolism behind her work.

Meranden: Take a listen to April's story and we hope you enjoy.

April Unkestine: My name is April Unkestine. I am from the Pueblo of Zuni, New Mexico. They asked me to talk with you guys about my jewelry and our connection with the Grand Canyon.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. And so, when did you start making jewelry?

April Ukestine: I started making jewelry when I was 15 years old. I grew up with my grandma. My grandma was diabetic and, you know, couldn't really support me. So, I ended up, you know, working on jewelry. And my aunt was the one who taught me how to make jewelry.

Ranger Annie: Nice. And so, who were kind of your biggest inspirations? Your aunt and...

April Unkestine: Well, most of my family were silversmiths. My grandma and my grandpa did silversmithing, just like my husband and I. He does his own thing and I do my own thing. My grandma and grandpa did their own things. My grandma did a lot of, like, inlay, similar to the famous Dishta work.

April Unkestine: And then my grandpa did his own petite point work. So, I used to watch them and sometimes I would help my grandma, but I never got to help my grandpa because even when he tried to teach me, I couldn't pick up that. I couldn't do his work. It seems simple, but I can't do his work.

Ranger Annie: So, can you kind of describe the process of, like, inlay and stuff like that?

April Unkestine: Actually, the inlay is, like, stone to stone. You make the bezel and then you do stone to stone, depending on what stones you use. Like, for me, I use a lot of mother-of-pearl, pin shell. I use turquoise, coral, you know, whatever's available to me. Sometimes I like to go and use a lot of different other materials, like I use gabasite. Gabasite is a stone with black lines and white spots on it.

April Unkestine: And it comes out pretty nice. It looks like it's cracked when you polish it, but it's pretty nice. I've also used what they call Newland. There is, like, a new turquoise, which is from Nevada. It's almost like the gabasite, but it's pretty neat, too. So, I use a lot of different variations in my stones and channel inlays, like, just stone to stone.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, and has your process kind of changed over time or...?

April Ukestine: No, not that much.

Ranger Annie: What are some of the...I was looking at a lot of your work earlier, and there were a lot of really intricate, cool symbols. Can you kind of tell us a bit about, like, the symbols in your artwork?

April Unkestine: The symbols in my artwork are symbols of the sun face. So, in our culture, we pray to the sun, which is our father sun. We ask for blessings, you know, and also the sun gives life, so we ask for a longevity of life. So, it's basically, you know, something that I picked up from my aunt, and that's how she explained it to me, so.

Ranger Annie: Nice. Yeah. So, and you had said, when we talked earlier, you had mentioned or you were describing the style that you had, and you said that it's not your style. But that it's more of, like, a shared style. Did you want to talk more about that?

April Unkestine: Yeah. The sun face is widely used in my village. Like, there's a lot of people that make sun face jewelry similar to mine, but theirs' are a lot different. A lot of this jewelry that all of us make in the Pueblo was, like, it's almost, like, shared. Like, so, my uncle, I mean, my grandmother's brother married into this family who made the sun faces, and then that lady used to be married to somebody else that made sun faces. So, it just, you know, carries on, like, I don't say this piece, this sun face is mine.

April Unkestine: Like, it's not my design. You know, I attribute a lot of my work to people that passed on that have made the sun face. They're not like mine, but they're similar to mine. So, it's a lot of the jewelry in Zuni are, like, shared. Like, a certain family member made this, but married into another family, and that family makes the jewelry now. And so, when a lot of people say, you know, that was my work, you know, it's been shared.

April Unkestine: People pick it up, you know, they share it with this person, that person. So, a lot of the jewelry making is, like, shared.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. And in the context of sharing, too, when did you kind of get started with the cultural demonstration program?

April Unkestine: The cultural demonstration, I started about three years ago. I've been wanting to, like, do shows and art shows and stuff like that. And one of my artist friends, we were working together. Well, I work with a group of artists in Zuni where we were helping build a park for our youth. And so, I got to working with these artists who go out and do shows. Like, they do big shows in bigger cities and stuff like that. So, you know, I told them, I've never done shows. And they're like, well, you need to try it.

April Unkestine: So, they mentioned this program to me about the Grand Canyon [cultural] Demonstration program. So, I was like, so how do I get started? So, it goes, oh, contact this person and this person. And so, that's what I did. And then when they called me, when the first time we came, me and my husband, we were like, what do we do? You know, how are we going to do this?

April Unkestine: But, you know, it kind of got a lot easier later on, you know, just, you know, calm down. Yeah. So, that's how we started doing demonstration. And we do do little shows. We haven't gotten into the big shows, which I'm trying to do. But, you know, there's a lot of process in it. You do applications and also you need to do, like, professional photographs of your work. And sometimes when I have jewelry, it goes out the door and I can't take pictures of it. The only pictures I have are on my phone.

Ranger Annie: But I know that your work got a lot of notability somewhat recently with the band Queen. Yeah. Do you want to talk about that?

April Unkestine: Well, I usually sell my jewelry to a store in Santa Fe. That store is called Keshi, called the Keshi Connection. It's run by, it was put up by a teacher that used to work in Zuni that bought fetishes from Zuni people. When she retired, she went to Santa Fe and opened this store. So she started buying jewelry and stuff. Anyways, going forward, she buys a lot of my jewelry. So she bought my bolos, my sun-faced bolos. \

April Unkestine: And one day she said, this guy came in. “I didn't know who he was. He was laid back. You know, he walked in and was walking around.” And he said, he got to your bolo. And he says, "I want that." So she sold the bolo, not knowing who he was. And then about two weeks later, a week or two later, it showed up on the red carpet.

April Unkestine: And it was Brian May that had gone into the store, bought the bolo. This was the time when they made the movie Bohemian Rhapsody. So he bought the bolo. And so that's how my fame started. And I don't like, you know, a lot of attention. It was so stressful for me because I would go to, even in my own town, I would go to a store. People would come up to me and say, hey, you're so-and-so. I saw you on the news. I heard you on the radio. Now you're on the magazine and all this other stuff. And it was just crazy. And I was like, no, I can't do that.

Ranger Annie: Did that, how did that kind of affect your work and life after that?

April Unkestine: I actually had a career working as a nurse assistant. I was working with disabled individuals at the time that that happened. So with a lot of demand in my work and my jewelry, I was like, I can't, you know, juggle my work and then, you know, do jewelry. So I had to quit working on, you know, working with disabled individuals, and I ended up working just on my jewelry.

Ranger Annie: That's incredible. So to bring it back to the canyon, I know you had mentioned that this was like your first time coming to Grand Canyon, for the first time you did the cultural demonstration program. But you have a larger like cultural connection to the canyon. Would you like to talk about that?

April Unkestine: Yes. It is said that our, when we came into the world, we came in from the Ribbon Falls. We came out from the Ribbon Falls, and then we made our journey through Zuni Pueblo, where we're currently at. And I had also explained to you about, you know, how we're told that certain times of the year, we're not supposed to talk about our migration story. And this is the time of the year, we don't talk about our migration story. So we talk about it in the wintertime.

April Unkestine: So in wintertime, we will sit around and our ancestors would, you know, our elders would tell us the story about, you know, how we migrated from the Grand Canyon. And then we went to Zuni Pueblo.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. How does it feel to return here to the canyon? Like, you know, for the demonstration program?

April Unkestine: It's really nice. I like that, you know, we have this program, where we're able to show our work and, you know, let people know what process it takes to make a lot of the jewelry that we make, or a lot of the carvings and the pottery, the paintings. There's a lot of artistic talent in our Pueblos, with the Native Americans, they have weaving baskets, whatever. And it's good to show, you know, the people, you know, like, the process of from starting to end, where, you know, you go into a shop, and there's no demonstrator there, you look at the piece, and you're like, Oh, I'll take this.

April Unkestine: But a lot of people don't know what the process is in making the jewelry or the whatever the art that they have. Or how, like, like you asked me, what the significance is in the piece, you know, so they don't know a lot of that, a lot of that stuff. So it's good to have demonstration where people actually see how it's done and how it's made.

Ranger Annie: Have you ever done any art like outside of jewelry?

April Unkestine: Yeah, I actually did a little bit of carving. I did a little bit of carving. I did other types of work. Oh, and I did a little bit of pottery. Sometimes I like to sew. I know they say that sewing isn't art, but it is. Anything is art, even music, dance, anything is art. So I did a lot of that. So I did a variety of stuff.

Ranger Annie: So how did you kind of settle on like jewelry is what you were wanting to do?

April Unkestine: I think jewelry is like my strength. Like when I'm so stressed out, like, everything's falling. And I feel like everything's falling. You know, I sit down and I start working. And it releases a lot of that stress. Like, I'm just sitting there doing my own thing. It keeps me calm. I'm working with my hands. I like working with my hands mostly.You know, I, you know, there's other things I did. But you know, I think jewelry is my strength.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. So you had said that your granddaughter actually said that you should be called an inspirational teacher. How do you see yourself filling that role with your jewelry and your art?

April Unkestine: I, you know, I try to teach younger kids like my granddaughter, other people, I try to teach them, you know, like, do something that makes you happy. You know, like, we have jobs like we have professional jobs, you could be most miserable there. But when we find something, you know, we're more at ease like my jewelry, you know, I'm more at ease doing a lot of that. And whereas when I was working as a nurse assistant, it was like chaos to me.

April Unkestine: I was like, some mornings I didn't want to go. I don't want to go there. So I tell people, you know, do what you like, you know, it's not, it's not the money that counts. It's how you feel, you know, how it makes you feel, you know, how good it makes you feel to do the things you want to do. You know, you know, that's that's how I, you And I've been doing programs in school where I talked to kids about, you know, how doing jewelry, but also remember that, you know, stay in school, have a professional career. Because sometimes in in professional careers, you know, there's setbacks where you're let go or something happens and you don't have a job and you can have like jewelry or some kind of art to fall back on just like in college where you have a major, have a minor.

April Unkestine: So, you know, have art as a minor or, you know, whatever makes you happy, you know, that's what I tell them. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Ranger Annie: So when you were growing up, how did you kind of think of the Grand Canyon?

And has that changed since you've been doing this program?

April Unkestine: I've just heard a lot of stories about the Grand Canyon, how we were connected, you know, a lot of stories about, you know, the migration, but I've never really been here before the demonstration. And when I came here, it was like, it's just a certain type of feeling that I felt when I got here. I'm just like an emotional person. So when I came here, I was so emotional. I was like, oh, so this is where it all started, you know, to be here and to actually see a lot of things around here. It was pretty nice.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. And you brought your granddaughter. Not to shout you out.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. So and how many times have you been here with the demonstration?

April Unkestine: I think about three times. Three times. Yeah.

Ranger Annie: How do you feel that, like, this style, how is it kind of different from like what your mentors and influencers sort of design?

April Unkestine: They had their own kind of style when they started working, like a lot of their work was similar, but you had to see the pieces to compare different styles to what mine are. I think theirs were like older style. And then mine was like the newer, like the now style.

April Unkestine: So and they had like more different, I guess, different stones, different, you know, supplies that they use. Like they, a lot of people use turtle shell back then. And now it's outlawed that you can't use turtle shell in jewelry. A lot of different stones that they use we don't use them anymore. So the basic stones that I use are a lot different from what they use back then. And plus, like, it's not really available anymore.

April Unkestine: Like when I started working and when I was 15 years old, we could buy turquoise like just anywhere. Now you have to go and search for turquoise. And like I was explaining to some of the people that came to my stand is that they're starting to make stabilized turquoise, which is not really, you know, like the natural turquoise.

April Unkestine: It's made with a lot of chemicals to keep them together because they're so brittle. But now they smell like plastic. They've made it to where before you can't tell the difference with a hot pin.

Now you can't tell any difference with it because they made it to where it's almost like the natural turquoise. So a lot of our supplies have gone down and I've noticed that a lot of coral is getting, like, hard to find too because we used to find, like, bright red, maroon color coral. Now we're finding, like, orange, some stuff that we really can't use and we'll have to pick through.

And it's a lot of things that have changed over the years. So many changes. Ranger Annie: Yeah, and I know COVID had a large impact too.

April Unkestine: Yeah, during COVID it was like we couldn't go get our supplies. We had to, like, if we went to a trading post, we had to wait in line. Like, they'll send, like, one person in or, like, they'll just bring it to you or whatever.

And we didn't have much people to sell to or we couldn't go out in public and sell like this. And it had a huge impact on our economy and our work. So we had to find ways to, you know, work with getting that money and selling our products.

So we would go online or, like, Facebook was great because people would look you up on Facebook and they say, hey, I see you make this. So we started selling to public. But that's also what I try to help a lot of people in my community.

It's like, you know, you'll be the first person to sell because when we sell to stores, I tell them we're the third person because, you know, a lot of the stores, they'll sell retail and we're, like, the way down there. So I try to tell them, you know, go out and sell, you know, be the first person, you know, do it yourself.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. Having more, like, kind of control over the process.

April Unkestine: Yeah.

Ranger Annie: And so you sell to stores and then I know you're talking about, like, shows and stuff. And what are some of the differences between, like, doing the shows versus the cultural demonstration program?

April Unkestine: During the shows, you don't really have to show them, you your product. You just, you know, put them up there. They come by and they buy, especially if they know you, like, you know, from the stores, they'll come by and they'll buy. And then also doing the shows is a lot more challenging because some shows are juried, meaning that you have to send a professional photo in and people look at it, the jurors look at it and they say, oh, we can bring her in or bring him in. And then then if you're accepted, you get in. But then you also pay a fee, a booth fee.

April Unkestine: And you and the shows, you have to pay your own way to get there. You have to get a motel or wherever you're going to stay. But with the demonstration, I'm glad that, you know, you have, you know, have a place to stay so we don't have to go find a place to stay. Or, you know, a lot of other things are so different from the show to demonstrating.

Ranger Annie: Do you have, like, maybe a favorite memory from demonstrating here?

April Unkestine: That's a tough question.

Ranger Annie: Maybe a good memory.

April Unkestine: Just the first time we came, we didn't know what we were doing. But the second day, it was pretty easy. First day we came, it was chaos. We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't know how we were going to sell or, you know, how we were going to price things or we didn't have that little square where people can swipe their cards to pay us. So it was all cash. And then we started learning all these different ways that they can pay. So we finally got up.

Ranger Annie: Now you're pros.

April Unkestine: Not really.

Ranger Annie: I don't know. Everyone should definitely stop by. Y'all will be here until Thursday.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. So, yeah. And I just kind of want to ask you, like, what would you like for the audience to sort of take away from this discussion and kind of, like, experience here?

April Unkestine: Just like, you know, whenever you see an artist, remember that, you know, it wasn't machine made. It was something that they made from their heart. Something that, you know, they put a lot of effort in working on and, you know, be appreciative.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. Appreciative. Great. And on that note of being appreciative and stuff, I do want to open the floor up to any questions if anybody has any questions for April.

Ranger Annie: So, yeah, the question is, we had a previous demonstrator who encouraged, like, going to reservations to buy directly there. Would that be appropriate, too, for you?

April Unkestine: Yeah, we actually have a little store down there that's owned by artists that they opened up not too long ago. I think it was before, right before the pandemic, they opened up the store for artists to bring their artwork in and for people to come in and buy directly from the artists.

April Unkestine: So we actually have that store. And then we also have one that recently came in Gallup. It's called the ZART. It's Z-Art. But they call it ZART. So there's another store in Gallup and then one in Zuni that, you know, they buy directly from the artists.

April Unkestine: And sometimes in our community, we have that art walk where they open their houses and people come in and they welcome them into their houses and they watch them work and buy their art there, too. I'm not a part of that, but there are a lot of artists that do that in Zuni. But even though I'm not a part of that art walk, you know, when people come in and they ask for me, they tell me and I say, oh, well, send them up.

April Unkestine: So they'll come to our house and, you know, they'll buy directly from us, which is a lot better than buying from the store because then that helps them, that helps the artists.

Ranger Annie: When is the art walk?

April Unkestine: It's just any, you can go down there any day and say, you know, go to the art center and they'll let you know who's all on the art walk.

Ranger Annie: Oh, cool.

April Unkestine: And you'll know who's on the art walk. They have like colorful rocks piled up on their driveway. So that's how they tell them that, you know, this is the art walk.

Ranger Annie: Oh, cool. Yeah, Zuni Pueblo.

April Unkestine: Yeah, you can come down there. Yeah, just any time of the year. But oh, we have certain time of the year where all the stores are closed is when we're fasting. Usually it's one time in the wintertime, usually December, like maybe the second or the third week of December, and then the summertime. Well, the summertime isn't closed, huh? No, summertime isn't closed, just the wintertime.

April Unkestine: But some of us do have fasting where we can't sell, buy, you know, spend money, so.

Audience Member: And then you said your jewelry was in the movie, Bohemian Rhapsody? It was in the movie?

April Unkestine: No, it was on the red carpet on Brian May when he went to go receive the award for it.

Audience Member: Oh, he wore it?

April Unkestine: Yeah, he wore it on the red carpet, yeah.

April Unkestine: There was one other time on Dumb and Dumber, the first movie, Dumb and Dumber. The pretty part where he's on the toilet. Oh, man.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, so you said Brian May is also a royal astronomer for UK. Incredible.

April Unkestine: Yeah, I tried getting a hold of him, he won't respond back to me. He's laid back, friendly, and whatever, and so I emailed him and nothing.

Ranger Annie: There's still time.

Audience Member: Your name again is?

April Unkestine: Aprilene Unkestine is my full name, I just go by April.

Audience Member: And the last name was?

April Unkestine: Unkestine.

Audience Member: Okay, I remember seeing it, yeah.

April Unkestine: Everybody asks me if I'm from Europe because it sounds European.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, so she was saying that a lot of the jewelry, you have the four colors for Zuni jewelry. Do you use any colors outside of those?

April Unkestine: I use a lot of different colors. I know that a lot of our colors represent different directions, so I use a lot of colors and also outside of the colors that we use. So I just use a variety of colors, like I had showed the pink mussel, what are the others? Abalone. So it's just a variety of colors that I use.

April Unkestine: There's still traders that sell abalone shells, just like the turtle shell, it's been outlawed. You can't use the turtle shells, but it was used a long time ago. I still see some of the jewelry in museums that have the turtle shells, but we can't use those anymore.

April Unkestine: My older son is making fetishes. My younger daughter is starting to make jewelry. My older daughter, she makes jewelry, but not like mine. Hers are, she makes little turtle earrings. And my granddaughter, she does butterfly earrings, yeah. So she's starting to make jewelry, too. But all in all, my family, my kids, they have their own careers, but they still work on jewelry. My older son is basically just working on fetishes. His name should also be in one of the fetish books, too.

April Unkestine: Oh, and I have an 11-year-old grandson who started working on fetishes, too. So he's done some, so his grandpa's, you know, I guess their inspiration.

Ranger Annie: Cool. Nice.

April Unkestine: Any other questions?

Ranger Annie: Well, thank you so much, April, for coming out and doing this program, and thank you all for staying.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/DF2B0436-0879-425E-5969C04A5DEEDDCA.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-DF39768D-0663-923F-EA9874E6E93C5F9A Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, listen to Rosabelle Shepherd speak with Ranger Dan about her experience as a Diné silversmith. She shares stories from her childhood, the inspiration for her work, and how she hopes the younger members of her family will give silversmithing a try. 1775 no full 20 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd Speaks

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: We are probably, probably like the very least important thing in this life. The very, and, and we think that we humans, we think that we're important.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: We think that we're above the four-legged and the winged ones and the plant life and all that. We're not. We're not.

Ranger Mark: Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Ranger Mark.

Ranger Grace: And I'm Ranger Grace.

Ranger Mark: This episode is with Rosabelle Shepard. She is a fifth generation Diné silversmith and in this episode, she talks to Ranger Dan about her relationship to her craft.

Ranger Grace: They had to record this episode inside the Desert View Watchtower because several thunderstorms were rolling through the area. Rosabelle shares how her silversmithing work pulls from important elements like clouds, rain, thunder, and lightning.

Ranger Mark: She also talks about her family. She grew up watching her father silversmith, and now her grandson is learning the practice. So, enjoy listening to Rosabelle in this episode and thanks for tuning in.

[Music]

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: (Speaks Diné). Normally, that's how Navajo people introduce themselves. We would say, we would give our greeting of yá'at'ééh. And some people say that means hello. I guess it could, but in our language, yá' is the universe, e'éh is ourself, and t'ééh is Mother Earth.

So when we use that greeting, we are acknowledging the universe, our father, ourselves, and Mother Earth. So it's kind of like, maybe like a blessing. So that's what yá'at'ééh means.

And then we say our name and always we introduce our clan. We introduce our mother's clan first, our father's clan, our maternal grandparents, and then paternal. So those four, we actually recite.

And then that's really our way of like building kinship among, you know, other Diné people. And then I just said that I'm originally from a place called (speaks Diné). And really, that's my middle name.

And (speaks Diné) is really from my grandfather, a place that he brought the family to during the summer for their livestock. It's actually a canyon, the Blue Canyon. And he brought the family there. And in the canyon, there were cottonwood trees. And they're still there. And he knew that there was water there.

And so he started digging around underneath the cottonwood, and he actually came upon a spring. And so when he found that spring, later on, the government came in and they built a well, a pump well. So we would go down there in the summer, and we would, you know, pump water for our sheep and our horses and our cattle.

And it had, like, a cement trough. And so, when he did that, and they named that place (speaks Diné) is actually cottonwood trees, and (speaks Diné) means underneath, and then tó is water.

And so they named my grandfather Isi'at'óni. So from that name is how, you know, when the census people came in, and they would ask the Navajo people, you know, what is your name? What is your last name? And we don't have any of that. And so they went and gave my mother's last name is (speaks Diné).

And so that's where that name comes from, (speaks Diné). And I use it in my signature. So my signature will be Teesyatoh Shepherd.

And then my silversmithing actually came from my father. So I always, you know, honor him by using my last name Shepherd. But that's, that's where I come from and that's who I am.

Ranger Dan: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Rosabell Teesyatoh Shepherd: Lengthy, huh?

Ranger Dan: It's good. It's a good intro. I wish I had kind of like a, an intro like that. I'm Dan from Minnesota. The land of many lakes. Like, that's about it kind of right there. We really like ranch dressing and casseroles and hot dish. But you already touched upon a little bit of like what your father used to do for silversmithing.

And as a cultural demonstrator for eight years here, you have been demonstrating your skill as a silversmith and you told me today that you kind of picked it up a little bit later in life, right?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I did. I waited till I was 40. Being stubborn.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't show that like, it shows that you have been doing this longer than since you've been 40. Like, it's very polished. It's very clean. And it holds true. It really does as an art form.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. I, I had been around silversmithing really all my life. I remember about four years old, I would sit and watch my father silversmith. And I would watch my father, I would be playing outside and I would watch my father going back and forth to the Hogan.

And I would look up every now and then, and I'd see him, you know, come out, take something in. And then about 30 minutes later, he'd come over to where I was playing and he would say, ‘come and watch me silversmith’. And so I would go into the Hogan with him and he had an open fire going.

And he had a little blanket over here on the side and that was for me to sit. So I was like four years old and I would sit there and I don't, I don't remember like being bored or wanting to, you know, leave. And he would explain his process of what he was doing. And in that time, you know, our men were really silversmithing the old way where they would actually melt silver coins.

They would actually melt it and then they would pour it. And then they would take that and they would be hammering on it. And my father had a railroad tie and it was probably about that long because it's nice and polished.

And then the open fire was used for that melted silver strip that he, you know, melted. And he would take prongs and he would stick it in the open fire to reheat it up. And then I remember that metal being like pinkish and he'd bring it out and he'd pound, pound, pound, turn it around, pound, stick it back in, in the open flame.

So he was explaining to me what he was doing. So I actually watched him, you know, work like that.

I'm like right in the middle of five brothers, two older brothers and three younger brothers. And I was the only girl in the middle. So my brothers were actually silversmithing when they were teenagers. My older brothers were silversmithing by the time they were like 13 and 14.

And then my younger brothers, they were, I remember my youngest brother being like nine years old and he was like using a buffer. I mean, that thing is like, that thing's like dangerous!

Ranger Dan: You're talking the buffing wheel? On a motor?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah, that, you know, spinning, yeah.

And the last, and he was -- the last two were buffers and I remember watching them work like that. So I was, you know, around silversmithing throughout my life. And I didn't, I didn't even touch it till I was like 40.

My brothers were the ones that, you know, kept, you know, telling me, you know, ‘you need to do what we're doing’. You know, I was working, you know, a regular job and, and they would always, you know, comment to me, you know, ‘why are you like running your life down for the government? You know, you need to do what we're doing’. I got so tired of hearing that because I'd be like so tired from work and, and then they would start, you know, and so one day I just like stood up and I just said, you know, I can't do that.

And my older brother, you know, grabbed me by my shoulder and he kind of like shook me. And he said, ‘what do you mean you don't know how to do this? You grew up with it!’ And that's what made me start thinking.

I started thinking about it. And within like six months, I actually, like, made, you know, made a decision that I was going to do it. And I like actually changed my life around and I actually left the public health and, and I started, I started.

And when I started, it was, it was just like so easy. I knew what to do. I knew what process to do.

And I didn't even have to like go to them and say, you know, well, what do I do now? You know. I knew the process. I seen the process. My thinking, my, you know, like the designs that I wanted to do, you know, were like constantly in my head. And even now after, after 20, I, I'm going to be starting my 26th year in silversmithing.

And even now my mind is still like that. I still want to create. I still, you know, can see, can look at something and, and I have another idea that I could like add on to it. I'm still good.

Ranger Dan: Yeah! Excellent! Yeah!

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: At Jewelry making.

Do you, do you fall asleep silversmithing? Do you just like hear the pounding of the hammer on the stump and like shaping the silver, creating rounds?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I know Ariel sometimes will say, ‘I just love that sound of when you're cutting’, you know, and most people, when you're cutting, it makes that like screeching noise and it can make you like kind of shiver.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And she always says, ‘I love that cutting noise that goes on, you know, all day long’.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. She would like that noise. Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And then the stamping noise, you know, boom, boom! My family's used to it. I've never heard any of my family complain.

They did say, ‘take your worktable, can you put your worktable in your room?’ I was like, no, I'm going to keep it here in the dining room and kitchen area.

And it's still there.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Nice.

That's good. So you talk about, you're still thinking about new ways to create pieces, to add in different patterns or try something brand new. Where do you find inspiration for your work and what do you normally incorporate into it?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: My work is really based on, you know, all the designs that I do really are based on elements. Elements that are very important to, you know, the Diné people, the Navajo people. The majority of my designs are going to be rain clouds, rain, plant life, lightning. Those really are the designs that I use and it's my way of acknowledging the elements.

You know, my parents, my grandparents, my ancestors, they lived a life where they gave offerings and did their prayers three times a day: early in the morning, midday, and sunset. Those three times of the day were when they made their offerings and their prayers and these prayers and offerings were made to the elements. And sometimes I think, man, you know, that's a lot.

You know, I fall short on that. You know, I'm not able, you know, to keep that, what do you, ritual or --

Ranger Dan: Devotion?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: you know, I fall short on it. So, I figured that, you know what, when I'm working is going to be my time of giving acknowledgement.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And so, when I'm working, I, you know, in my way, you know, I'm giving acknowledgement to the elements. I feel better about that because I think a lot of the, you know, like my generation and younger, we've lost that regiment of, you know, the praying three times a day.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Yeah. But it's also comforting to know that your work for 26 years now is being worn all around the world. I mean, you're here at the canyon, people from all over, our folks from Germany here. I mean, like, if you want to buy something, it'd be tomorrow. But it's, I mean, there's folks that are wearing your work and it's that acknowledgement that is then going around the world too. To different places, to different countries, to different cultures. And so, it's there.

It might not be three times a day, but it's every day. It's constantly, which is really cool to think about because before people were just here. Now we're really expanding and going all over.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: That’s true.

Ranger Dan: So, I think you're doing a fantastic job.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Thank you. Thank you, Dan.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. And so, with the elements too, I think they really came through today because we've had two massive thunderstorms come through Desert View. And when we were talking today earlier, you were mentioning what you grew up with for having to acknowledge these storms with your family.

Can you tell us what that was like?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: So, how I grew up, I was telling Dan today, you know, like when it started to rain and people, you know, ended up being stuck in here, you know, everybody sat down. And I mentioned to my grandson, I said, you know, this is what we're supposed to do when it rains. We're supposed to actually sit down.

The way I grew up was anytime it was, you know, it would start to rain, you know, my brothers and I wanted to like run around in the rain. And my father would always, you know, ‘come in, come in right now, right now!’ And we'd have to go into the hogan and we would have to sit.

I mean, we had to sit. And we'd sit around, you know, in a circle. And my father would always say, ‘you are not supposed to be running around’.

You're not supposed to be, you know, even, we couldn't even like drink water or eat. We would just sit there and we would revere the rain. So, we would all get herded in and we'd sit there, you know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes.

And after it would stop raining, then my father would say, okay, you can go out and play in the water. And I remember during the summers, my brothers and I would herd sheep all day. We'd come home and my mother would have, you know, dinner for us.

We'd eat and we'd, you know, maybe stay up for an hour or so. And then we would be so tired that, you know, we were ready to, you know, go to sleep. And we would fall asleep.

And then in the middle of the night, like midnight, one o'clock, two o'clock, it would start raining. And my father would ‘wake up, wake up. You're not supposed to be laying down when it's raining’.

So, rain is actually sacred. It's a sacred movement and we're supposed to acknowledge it and revere it. And so, in the middle of the night, you know, we would all have to wake up and we would have to sit, sit and just, you know, we could talk a little bit, you know, but, you know, we couldn't like go back to sleep or lay back down.

And I would think, man, I am so tired. And we kind of drift off and my father would, you know, ‘don't sleep. You're not supposed to sleep’.

So, it was actually our way of revering it, revering the element of rain. I was telling Dan that anything of the cosmic nature too is actually a sacred movement. We cannot be in like the eclipse.

We can't be in it. We can't view it. We have to go inside our homes and, you know, close our curtain.

We can't see that darkness because it's sacred. So, things like that, you know, I still observe and I want my children to observe it and I want my grandchildren to observe it. And I hope that, you know, they, you know, with their own children and grandchildren, they'll, you know, keep, you know, observing it because it's really important.

It's very important. These elements are actually, they have so much power that we cannot acknowledge, you know, we can't turn away from it. They have so much power, you know, that without these elements, you know, we wouldn't even be living.

We wouldn't even be living. So, that's how important elements are to the Navajo people.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, they're integral.

And I remember you saying that you can't say a bad thing about them as well.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah, you know, like, ‘ah’, you know, ‘I hate that wind’ and stuff like that. I always tell my kids, don't, you know, you're not supposed to say that.

‘Oh man, the rain's coming down again. I hate it when it’, no, no, don't say that. Don't say that.

Don't, you know, you don't talk ill of the elements.

Ranger Dan: It's all interconnected in some, in some fashion.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: It is. We are probably, probably like the very least important thing in this life. The very, and, and we think that we humans, we think that we're important.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: We think that we're above the four-legged and the winged ones and the plant life and all that. We're not. We're not.

Ranger Dan: We all coexist.

Yeah. And so like your, your work, it reflects what your upbringings have been. It might not be as stringent as like your family observed growing up, but it's in your work and it has a place for sure.

And now when you're demonstrating here, you have Sage with you as well.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: My, my oldest grandson.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: My oldest grandson is now 29 and at 20, he wanted to learn what I was doing. And immediately we sat down and started and I started teaching him, you know, everything that I know, everything that I know, you know. I, I, I've been teaching him and I'm waiting for, I want all my grandchildren to know. I want, I want them to at least try it once or twice. If they can just do that, you know, I would, I would be okay with it.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's really cool to know as well that you are a fifth generation silversmith and now Sage is the seventh generation silversmith as well.

But you also mentioned that, are you the only...?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I, I might be the only female in, in my family that is a female silversmith. Because I never heard my father speak of, you know, any like, my grandmother, you know, none of them, you know, silversmith.

And so I might be. And if I am, I'm, I, I'm, I'm like, ‘cool, Rosabelle’.

Ranger Dan: It's pretty neat. It's awesome.

It's your work. It's your standalone. It's your mark and your family.

It holds, which is really, really cool to think about. But what does it, what does it mean for you to be here with Sage, seeing him be the seventh generation silversmith?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I, I feel complete. I really do because I have at least one grandson who is interested and who has the ability and the capability to do it because he has that creative bug in him.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: In my old age, I'm happy with that. That I know that at least I have one grandson who is going to carry it on. And, and even now when he talks, he'll, when we have, you know, like our little conversations, you know, ‘I, I want my son, Zayden and Ry-Ry to, you know, learn silversmithing’. I said, ‘don't forget about your daughter too’.

So he already has in his mind that he wants them to learn that trade.

Ranger Dan: Oh, that's neat.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: That's great.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: It lives on.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: That's, that's beautiful. We know, we know you still got some years ahead, right? For the silversmith in here.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I hope so. Some day I'll be hammering and I'm thinking, how much longer do you think I'm going to be hammering like this? I mean, a three pound hammer?

Ranger Dan: It's a lot to swing repeatedly. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole lot.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: It's not just like tapping. It's like, boom, you know, and I'm, and then I'm at the buffing machine too. And I'm hanging on to my jewelry while I'm polishing it.

And then I think, dang, you know, I wonder how much longer I'm going to be doing this.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Because I'm beginning to feel the aches.

Ranger Dan: Okay.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. The muscles after working. Yeah. Before, you know, I hardly felt it, but now even from sitting, when I get up, you know, I'm like creaking. I'm stooped over until I straighten up.

Ranger Dan: and everything just pop, pop, pops right into place.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And I think, man, I wonder how much, do you think I'm going to be silversmithing at 70? But I met one of my, um, old, old friends that I know. He silversmiths and he's like 85. And so I greeted him and I, and clan wise, he's my father. And I said, [speaks Diné].

‘Hey father, you know, what are you doing?’ He goes, ‘oh, I'm just out and about today trying to sell my work’. And I'm like, ‘are you still silversmithing?’ He goes, ‘yeah, yeah. I'm still silversmithing’.

And he told me, he goes, ‘when I first started and I was silversmithing’, he goes, ‘daughter, I've even been to Japan’.

Ranger Dan: Oh, cool.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: This is like 1950, 1960!

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. ‘I've been to Japan. I sold my work out there’.

Ranger Dan: That's cool.

Rosabelle Shepherd: Holy cow.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. I think, I definitely think you’ve got some demonstrations ahead of you for sure. More time to be back here at the Canyon and yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I'll see.

Ranger Dan: Well, whenever you do come back in the future, bring the rain again, because we will, uh, we will gladly welcome it. Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. It's good. The rain is good.

Ranger Dan: Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, Rosabelle, for participating tonight. And it's always a pleasure to have you out here. It's great to see Sage as well.

When, uh, he's demonstrating and seeing his work come so far by spending time with you and seeing his work just get polished up and yeah. So I can see the aspect of you feeling complete in, in all of this being passed on. I think that's really neat to see.

Thank you very much. Yeah. And have a wonderful safe evening tonight, folks, and watch out for storms while you're here at Grand Canyon.

So thank you.

[Applause]

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I had, I had a customer one time I was, um, I was swinging my, um, hammer and he walks by and he says, a woman with that, a woman with a big hammer like that scares me.

[Laughter]

Outro: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy.

A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA.

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache nation, the Kaibab band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Tue, 09 Sep 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/E1EC2A88-FE45-9BE9-B41FA82C866BFF19.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-E1EEBF45-DE77-04A9-6BCD76BA00F35BBD Caroline Wilson Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Dan spoke with GCC employee Caroline Wilson about her experiences growing up at Grand Canyon with her grandparents. She shares how her Diné culture has played an important role throughout her life and even mentioned some tasty snacks you can find around the Navajo reservation. 1979 no full 19 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Caroline Wilson Speaks

[Caroline]

I tell my grandkids and my kids, I said, you can't dwell on what things that might have happened to you, what happened to your people a long time ago. It'll just bring you down. So now, you have to look forward.

Look for the good. Only for the good. Yes, remember your history, but look ahead.

That's what I teach the young people and those that I love.

[Meranden]

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Ranger Eliana]

And I'm Ranger Eliana.

[Meranden]

In this episode, Ranger Dan spoke with Grand Canyon Conservancy employee, Caroline Wilson, about what it was like growing up at Grand Canyon with her grandparents.

[Ranger Eliana]

She describes what her childhood was like, from carting wool with her grandma to spending her high school summers working at the hotels in the Grand Canyon village and the town of Tusayan.

[Meranden]

She also talks about some very interesting delicacies you can find on the Navajo reservation.

[Ranger Eliana]

As always, thank you for tuning in to today's episode. Season 2 has been filled with so many amazing episodes, and we're glad to be sharing them with you all.

[Meranden]

And here is Caroline Wilson.

[Caroline]

Hey. Good evening, everybody. My name is Caroline Wilson.

Bighorse is my maiden name. First of all, I'm an elder. I call myself an elder of my people and of my family.

So I'm a grandmother, a mother, and a wife. So it's good to look at people and know who you're talking to. And I figured that's what I would do this evening.

So how many of you know about the Navajo people? Okay. So I want to teach you a word.

Some of my coworkers already know the word. In the South Pacific during World War II, they used our language, the code talker language. And I want to teach you one word, and that way we'll greet one another.

How's that? And so this is not a code word, but it's a greeting word, okay? So I'm going to say it to you, and I want you to say it to me, okay?

Yá'át'ééh. Yá'át'ééh. One more time.

Yá'át'ééh. Yá'át'ééh. Nice to meet all of you also.

And welcome to the Grand Canyon. And I so appreciate Dan for being here. He's kind of a support, and also my coworkers.

Thank you for your support (Speaks Navajo). So it's very nice. The canyon is a blessing to me right now.

I was working at another place, and I was kind of stagnated in my job. I wanted to do something else. And for some reason, I was looking through the newspaper one day, and I saw a conservancy ad in there.

And I didn't know what a conservancy was. I didn't know the meaning. And as I have come to learn what the meaning is about, it's to raise funds for the Grand Canyon.

And in a way that we sell products here at the Watchtower, and 84% of that money goes back into programs that are made available to you that visit us here every day. And I so appreciated that. And I've been here for probably 2 years and 4 months, going on 5 months.

So it's a wonderful place, and I'm sure you agree with me because you're here today to experience this awesome site. And Dan was asking me, what is it that you gained from knowing about the National Park? When I was young, I remember one experience when I was young, maybe around 6 or 7.

My grandfather, he was a medicine man. And he would go out and gather herbs. I didn't know what they were.

So my grandma and him, my grandma and my grandpa, for some reason, I just got in and we came up here. I don't remember which area. And then I followed them.

I guess he was looking for a certain herb. And even though I was really young, I noticed the reverence that he had. And so he went to a certain bush, and then he stood there for a bit and he said a prayer.

And then he finally knelt down on the ground and he reverently took some of those herbs out of the ground. And then he showed me without telling me that this is how you treat plants, especially the ones that you're going to use in ceremonies, and maybe the type that maybe you're going to eat also. And so I remember that to this day.

And then my grandmother, she was a practitioner also. She also gathered herbs. In Navajo, they call her a (Navajo word).

It means to bring children into the world. It wasn't a job because she just knew what to do. And so back in the day, they didn't have hospitals.

And so sometimes a mother would have difficulty giving birth, and then they would send for her. And then she would use these herbs to relieve the pain, and she was able to turn babies also. This was my grandmother Grace.

And so I feel inadequate right now because I didn't learn those things from her. I wasn't able to spend 24 hours with her for the last 67 years, but I was able to appreciate what she did and how I was able to experience her teachings. She was also a weaver also.

And so these are two great people that I've known when I was little. So I'm sharing that with you. It's very personal.

My mother. My mother is Julia Curley, and there's 10 of us that she raised. I'm the second to the oldest.

My brother is the oldest, and then I have siblings. One of them is sitting right here. And so very awesome lady.

When we were little, we didn't have a vehicle to get around, and I didn't know at the time that we were very poor. We didn't know that, or I didn't know that. So the way to get to the hospital, to the grocery stores, we'd go on the road and hitchhike, and then somebody would just pick us up and then take us to the grocery store or to the hospital.

And then that's what I remember. We would either live in a hogan, a tent, or maybe just a shed structure. At that time, we would move with our livestock, my grandparents' livestock.

And Dan was asking me about that. And here, up in the high desert, it doesn't rain constantly, and sometimes you'll have a drought for maybe two years. So you had to move where the water was, where the feed for your animals were.

So we moved great distances, and that's why we lived like a nomadic life. But there was a lot to learn. My grandmother wove, so I must have been about five.

She would say, Here, I want you to card this wool. Here, I'm just a little kid. And the carding things are about this big.

And so you'd be sitting there carding and scratching your arm. But it was something that you'd learn. And you would make a pile of it, and she would look at it.

And she would pick this one out, and then she'd say, Redo these. And you would be sitting there with your arms scratched up. But it was a learning experience.

From carding wool, then you did the spinning. You would sit there, and you would spin the wool. I only got to that point.

I didn't learn to weave. Thank goodness. I mean, there are other people that are really good weavers, but I didn't learn.

So at the age of 10, my mother was introduced to a religion. Missionaries came to see her. I'm not sure why she did it, but I'm sure she probably saw an opportunity where her kids could be educated.

And so we were sent away to school to Southern California, to Los Angeles and San Diego. That's where we learned to speak English fluently. That's how we learned to mingle with everybody.

We lived with different families, but the families that I stayed with, they were my second family. And I appreciate what they did for me, and it made me the person that I am today.

[Ranger Dan]

Thank you for that, Caroline. Those are great words and excellent things for people to understand. Just growing up, you've had so many experiences that you just mentioned.

We could touch upon all of that tonight, and you'd be here until the moon is out and over the horizon. You were talking about how long your family's been in this area earlier. We got back into the 1800s, talking about your great-grandparents.

You're stable today. You're in one location, right? But your great-grandparents, they moved. They moved across this landscape. Can you tell everyone how they moved across this landscape?

[Caroline]

Sure. So the Navajo people, they're a matrilineal society. Everything goes through the ladies, through the women. So our clan system stays with the women.

It goes through the daughters. So they're the ones that are the owners of their land, whatever property that they have. The men, they come in, become part of the family.

And so in the old traditions, the uncles, they're the ones that taught the young ones, the mother's brothers. They're the ones that would teach the offsprings of the mom. The dad was basically there for support and to bring, you know, good things to the family.

And that's what the Navajo people are about. So after the long walk, they were able to go home. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, but there was a time that the Navajos were gathered up.

They were incarcerated at a place called Bosque Redondo, New Mexico. And they were there for close to six years. And I think there was possibly maybe around 3,500 left of our people.

And they were finally allowed to go home. And they did a treaty with the United States government. And from there, they were allowed to go home.

And this is our homeland here. But some of our people, they weren't rounded up. Guess where they ended up?

Down here. They hid from the soldiers. And they lived most of their time down here.

And once the treaty was signed, then they were able to come out. And they say, well, we were never caught. But there were a lot that were.

And my grandmother on my grandfather's side, she was 10 years old when she walked all the way to Fort Sumner, New Mexico. That's where it is. And so a lot of our people did that.

And so once they were back at their homeland, I think the government, through the treaties, they were given livestock. And they were given different things. And so from there, they rebuilt themselves.

And at the time of my grandmother, she was my grandmother, Grace's grandmother. They called her a (Navajo word). So she had very light-colored hair.

Anyway, she was the only sister to six brothers. So you can imagine the clanship went through her, and a lot of the things went through her. So she was pretty well off.

And so at the time when she was probably in her prime, she had over 2,400 herds of sheep and horses. At that time, they didn't have cattle. And so you can imagine 2,400 sheep, what they eat, and how much water that they needed.

So the people that had that kind of wealth and livestock, they had to travel great distances to find water and feed. And so they could go as far as San Francisco Peaks, all the way into probably southern Utah, all the way into Farmington. So they were able to roam where they were able to take their sheep.

There was no restriction. It wasn't until later that they had to go be only in their area. And so she was able to do that, and she had family members that would help her with that.

And how they used that. You're considered wealthy when you have that much, you know. And Dan asked me what type of monetary, how did they use that.

Did they use money? Did they use, you know? No, they used what they had.

So yearly, spring lambs were taken to the trading post, and the trading post owner would buy those from them, and then they would cart them off wherever they sell that. Sheep wool was very expensive. They would have hundreds of people go from one sheep camp to the other, just shearing, shearing.

It's hard to do. I've done it. My sister just did that for her sister a while ago.

My back won't allow me, but it is very hard. But they used to fill gunny sacks taller than way up here, and then they would go and take those to market, and they would get money for that. And a lot of them, my people were good silversmiths, and they're still well known for that.

The women, well known for their weaving. And all the women that I knew in my family, the older ones, they all wove, and so they would get money from that. And so they were very industrious people when they were at that time.

And I think we still are, even though I don't weave, even though I don't have silversmithing, even though I don't have sheep. I made it my goal to work, and I feel that that's part of the continuing self-sufficiency. Do it for your family.

I have four daughters, my husband Albert. I have ten grandkids. My husband worked for Peabody Coal Company.

They had a coal mine over here at Black Mesa. He worked there for close to 40 years. And so my daughters, they would say, I want to be a welder like my dad.

And then my dad goes, no, that's not a good place for a woman. And guess what they did? They're welders.

And so, yeah, that's what they do, and that's how they support themselves and their families. And so there's not, jobs are not available. As you can see, we have to come all the way out here.

So my son-in-laws, they're also welders or iron workers. So they go as far as Phoenix. It's Utah, sometimes as far as Wyoming, Montana, where jobs, good jobs are available.

So that's why they do it. So that's where we learn to be self-sufficient.

[Ranger Dan]

So you're talking about self-sufficiency, industrialization, being industrious and taking things into your own hands and making something out of it. I mean, like, you were handed wool at five years old and told to cart it, and you're making a product at that point. But you told me earlier that in order to kind of get an escape, but it also was on that self-sufficiency side that the kids from Cameron would come up to the canyon here, work in the hotels or the restaurants, and do some part-time jobs like flipping beds and doing whatever else.

What was that time like to come up here?

[Caroline]

That was high school years. When you want to be away from your parents and get into things you're not supposed to get into. So I think I started around my junior year, and I had a bunch of friends at Cameron.

I said, let's go do something. And so we hitchhiked to the village and then to Tusayan, and we were hired right away to be bussers. And they gave us a room there, and we stayed in a dorm.

And that's what we did all summer long. We probably made about $500. But hey, that's money.

So you buy maybe a pair of pants or a shirt or something nice. And we did that every summer when we were free. It was a way to get away from our parents and just have fun.

And so a lot of us were bussers. Some of them helped the maids take the sheets off the beds. And then in the evening we would take off, and we knew young people would be at the movies or they would have that in the village there.

And that was a fun time.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, it's part of the community at that point. It's the community of Cameron. It's the community up here as well.

And yeah, there are great ties for everyone to come up here. So out of curiosity, did you work at the El Tovar ever, the Bright Angel, the hotels on the rim of the canyon?

[Caroline]

We did one stint at the El Tovar. They had a dorm right there behind the El Tovar where they would house the kids. And then one of my friends says, let's go to Tusayan.

Let's go over there and do some bussing. They give good tips over there. And guess where we went?

We went over there. Yeah, cool.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, I hope the people at the El Tovar are getting good tips now. It's the swanky hotel up here on the rim of the canyon. So your time frame here has changed as it's gone on.

You've become stationary. You've had the family. You've grown in this space here, but also traveled at the same time, like going out to California, being educated.

Do you feel your views on this area, your perspective has changed as time has gone on?

[Caroline]

Oh, yes, uh-huh. I believe it has. So when you're young, when you're really young, you have the influence of your grandparents and your parents, and they teach you up to a certain point.

But as you get a little bit older and you're a teenager, then you have another perspective, and then you learn things, maybe things that you shouldn't learn, you know. But that's a great lesson too, you know. And you say, well, I'm not going to do that again, you know, those type of things.

And then now, I've been working for quite a few years, and I do have a different perspective. I may not be as traditional as most Navajos because I have teachings that were given to me from a lot of people, not just my own family. And you choose your path.

It's not bad, you know. You choose what people have taught you. And I try to teach my daughters and my grandkids, but they're still going to make that choice, whether they want to be traditional or nontraditional or maybe semi, you know, whatever they want to do.

Maybe they'll carry both traditions. And so I have grandkids that are, their ancestry, they're part German. And a lot of the Navajo people, the world has opened up to them.

And what we've been taught as kids, the kids, you know, they don't take that and use it. They go their own way. That's why we have a lot of in-laws from all over the world.

And they live on our land, and our people have moved to New York City. They live in the Caribbean. They live in Hawaii.

Some of them even, my granddaughter, she's in the Navy right now. She's somewhere in France. So she goes, I can't tell you, it's a secret.

[Ranger Dan]

And the postcard's redacted.

[Caroline]

But her name is Caitlin, and now she's traveling the world, things that I didn't do. I don't like airplanes. So my kids wanted to take me to Hawaii.

I said, you're going to have to put me to sleep to go over there. But anyway, that's how it is nowadays. And my grandparents used to say, you marry your own kind.

Don't marry outside your tribe. And it didn't work. And that's why we have so many people that we live with here in this area, people of other nations.

And I'm sure at one time we were enemies. We didn't like each other. We killed each other, you know.

There was a time that that's how it was. And all over the world, that's like that. There's a time you become who you are, and through your teachings, you look at people a different way.

And it's good that you're able to do that. And that's why I love being here. I get to meet people from all over the world.

Your humanity starts showing, you know. Because when you're a minority like I am, I've experienced a lot of racism. It's a hard thing to deal with.

But you also meet a lot of good people out there. And I tell my grandkids and my kids, I said, you can't dwell on what things that might have happened to you, what happened to your people a long time ago. It'll just bring you down.

So now you have to look forward, look for the good, only for the good. Yes, remember your history, but look ahead. That's what I teach the young people and those that I love.

[Ranger Dan]

I think, yeah. (Applause) Thank you. I think your teachings go beyond your family.

I like to say we've got the Grand Canyon family up here as well. And so learning from you and from Marian, I learn something every day. And so those teachings go beyond just your family.

It might not be said outright, but with the staff here at the park, yeah, we learn a lot from both of you every day up here at the canyon. And we're very proud to call you all family and friends. Awesome.

Thank you. And some of these lessons, we talk a lot about food. If you hang out with me, you'll learn that I like to talk about food.

So if you spend time out here, you get to know that there are certain things that are like delicacies in the area. And we brought one up today. I have not had it yet, but I think people need to learn about Piccadilly a little bit here just to get a little flavor of what a treat this is in the surrounding communities.

[Caroline]

Anybody know about Piccadilly? How many of you like pickles? How many of you like Kool-Aid?

How many of you like snow cones? All right. So they combine all that into a treat, plus the pickles.

And that's a Piccadilly of the Navajo Nation. And gummy candy. And when I first tasted it, I wasn't too sure.

And I'm like, oh, gosh. And after a while, it tasted okay. And then now I'll have it every other week.

So see this tree right here? This is a juniper tree. So some of them already have the berries on there.

They're edible when they turn purple. So it's a native food. So what we do with that is you can crush it, dry it, and use it in a porridge.

Or you can just plop it in your mouth and eat it if you want to. And so you can take the little nubs, like the leaves, you burn that into an ash. And then you put it in your cereal with corn.

Or you can take coffee. You can do that with cornmeal, too. And it's a type of delicacy that we have that we use in our foods.

So if you look up here, up here, this is a pinyon pine tree. Do you see the little nubs on there? That's going to produce the pinyon pine nuts.

And we're going to have a good crop this fall. It's very hard on the knees because you have to get down on your knees and pick up the pine nuts. That's another storage food.

You would gather those in the fall and store it. And that was another way to survive the winter. So just a few of the foods that Dan is talking about.

There are so many. So I want to share one experience that I had while I was out pinyon picking. Oh, I love to pick pinyons.

I'm one of the first ones there. So one morning I called my mother. I said, Mom, can you go pinyon picking with me?

And she goes, No, I'm busy. So I'm calling around to people, and then I found my uncle's wife. Her name is Eileen.

She goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. She talks really fast. She goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go.

So it took us like 30 minutes to get everything together, and we took off. There's a place right over here. There's big pinyon trees.

So we went over there. We got there around 8.30, and we just immediately just started picking pinyons. Then around 1 o'clock, let's take a break.

Let's eat some lunch. So we took out our Vienna sausage and crackers, and we had that for lunch. As we were finishing up, I said, Eileen, let's move the truck over here, maybe 200 yards.

So she said okay, so she took off again. So I got in my vehicle, and I moved the truck away. I was getting out of my vehicle, and I heard 2 girls talking.

It was coming from the east, and there's a road that goes along the side of the forest. I thought, I wonder who's parked over there. When they were talking, I couldn't make out the language.

I said, I wonder who is that? I stood there waiting for them to come out of the woods. Then curiosity got the best of me, so I went out there, and I started walking up a little ways.

Then I kind of had this tingling on my back. I said, oh my gosh, what is that? Then they never came out.

Then I looked around. Before I started picking pinons, I walked maybe a half a mile around radius to see where I could find the big ones. So I looked around where I walked.

I didn't see anything. I said, I wonder if they came before we came. Then I'm standing there, and then again I heard the two girls talking, two young girls.

They were laughing. I thought, who are they? I said, hello, and there was no answer.

Then I just thought, wow. While I was doing the check in the morning, I came upon some ruins. They look like this, but a smaller version, just to the east.

They were the old ruins that you see out in the forest. So I said, Eileen, come back, because I kind of got, it got a little bit eerie after that. So the only thing that I could come to about that experience was they were people that lived there before.

They were laughing and talking and walking and talking with each other. I didn't meet them, but I heard them. So that was my experience I wanted to share with you.

So you are in their land. They used to live here, and now we do.

[Ranger Dan]

. This place is home to the people now, and also before, but also for the people in the future.

[Caroline]

Exactly.

[Ranger Dan]

This is a place to be preserved and cared about, and it's wonderful to see that come through with you every single day, working here at the Watchtower and for the Conservancy, because as you've expressed here, working with them is doing the good things that you like to see preserved here and help to protect this place altogether. Completely agree with you. So for a final question here for you, when they come here, and this is also to park staff, anybody who comes here, one thing they should remember about this landscape?

[Caroline]

Just what you're talking about. Don't litter. My grandfather used to say the high places are sacred places.

And I think every place is, when you really think about it, but they would go up into high places and say their prayers. That's what I consider here. This is sacred ground to me, and anywhere on the rez when I go, I envision that.

So I want my great-great-grandchildren to come here and see what you see. And so let us all take care of the National Parks. What a great legacy we're going to have when we do that.

That's my takeaway from that.

[Ranger Dan]

Thank you very much, Caroline. Thank you.

[Ranger Jonah]

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 25 Jul 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/A5356FB1-9AAB-373E-1862C1032748DF24.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-A5415615-9031-3C0D-72749C7F8C35EFE8 Darance Chimerica Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Dawn sat down with Darance “Makwesa” Chimerica about being a kachina doll carver for over 26 years. He provides some insight into how it’s been a journey of challenges but also many accomplishments. He also speaks on his involvement with the Hopitutskwa Permaculture as a board member. 1568 no full 18 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Darance Chimerica Speaks

[Makwesa]

I'm going to do this, and in two years, I'm going to be really good. I'm going to go to all these shows. I'm going to, you know, make it big.

Hopefully get a car or something for myself. But that didn't happen. It took a very, very long time for me to accomplish some of the things that I had envisioned.

[Lakin]

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden]

And this is Meranden.

[Lakin]

In this episode, Ranger Dawn spoke with Darance Makwesa Chimerica, who has been a Hopi Kachina carver since 1997.

[Meranden]

He describes how his art allowed him to explore many places around the world with his family and develop as an artist.

[Lakin]

In addition to his carving, he is a dryland farmer and sits on the board for Hopi Tutskwa Permaculture, which is a non-profit based in the village Kykotsmovi.

[Meranden]

Thanks for tuning in, and here is Makwesa.

[Makwesa]

I'm Darance Chimerica. A lot of the people at home on Hopi refer to me by my Hopi name, Makwesa. I live about an hour and a half from here on the Hopi reservation.

And I'm here for three days to show some of Hopi culture, Kachina dolls.

[Ranger Dawn]

I wanted to start off by asking you about your craft and how you got into Kachina doll making and what it means.

[Makwesa]

I started in 1997. I had grandfathers on my mother's and my father's side that both did Kachina dolls. And my mother's father, my grandfather, he was a textile weaver, so he did traditional textile weaving.

And in high school, elementary, you're already starting to prepare for what you want to be. You ask children what they want to be when they grow up. Some want to be doctors, policemen, firemen, astronauts, all of these things.

But me, I really had no clue of what I was going to do after when I graduated high school. So at the time, during my high school years, my aunt's boyfriend at the time introduced me to carving. Kachina doll carving.

And I did some of the basics. And after high school, I did masonry, fence working, and all of that. But it just didn't really fit me.

I didn't really have the desire to continue. So I started looking into Kachina doll carving. You know, being out of high school, being young, 18 years old, thinking I'm going to do this.

And in two years, I'm going to be really good. I'm going to go to all these shows. I'm going to, you know, make it big.

Hopefully get a car or something for myself. But that didn't happen. It took a very, very long time for me to accomplish some of the things that I had envisioned.

Three years after high school, you know, it's still, you know, I was struggling. And in 2003, luckily, you know, I met a gallery owner and he introduced me to other people. And those people were the ones that launched my carving career.

That was my first big show in 2003 when I went to a gallery and I was able to display some of my Kachina doll carvings. And to this day, there's, I'm still, you know, connected to them. And we, there are older men now, they're in their 70s and they're up there in their years.

So after I went through so many trial and errors, failures, and, you know, accomplishments. And, you know, reaching some of my goals and then applying to some of these art shows that I saw advertised. Thinking, you know, it would be easy getting into these shows, but they're very, very, you know, competitive.

And your work, you're competing against some of the high-end artists. So me being, you know, down at the bottom of the ladder, you know, it didn't come. So finally in 2008, I finally got into the big market, the Santa Fe Indian Art Market, which is held in August.

And I think that's when I felt like things started to turn for the good. After that, you know, I just kept going. It's just very competitive in the art world, especially carving amongst hundreds of Hopi carvers.

You know, they look down on you, they look at you, they see who you are and your style of work. So it was pretty hard at the moment to where I almost kind of gave up. But with Hopi dolls, it's just not just an art form, but it's also a traditional practice that is taught to the Hopis.

Kachina dolls are given to young children, females, and they're given to them as teaching tools when they're first born as infants. And then as they grow up to the age of 12, and that's when they start to go into another phase of approaching adulthood. And then after that, you know, the doll grows with them.

They're given simple dolls, and as they grow older, they become more detailed and more elaborate. But there's a lot of history in Kachina doll making and the people that first started carving them. But that's just a little bit of history of how I started and where I came from.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, it sounds like you had a big support system behind you getting started.

[Makwesa]

Yeah, I did. I had family. Well, my mother, my father, they didn't push me to, you know, you got to do something, you know.

They just left it up to me to, you know, figure out what I want to do after I graduated. And I have three children. I have my son, my oldest is 11.

I have a daughter that's nine and I have my youngest is four. Right now, my support is solely my immediate family, my kids and my wife.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, when we were talking earlier, you were describing like your current lifestyle now, like with your children and how school works. So do you want to like kind of talk about that?

[Makwesa]

Yeah, so my kids, they're homeschooled. The benefits of that, you know, being self-employed is I get to wake up to my children every morning. My wife, you know, she's a homemaker.

Plus she has she works with the university with the cancer prevention program. So she's able to work from home. And yet she's able to, you know, when the kids are in school, she tends to them if they need help or if there's a parent that needs to be involved, she's there.

And occasionally I'll be a part of it when I'm not too busy. But I'm the one that, you know, makes the money, pay the bills and, you know, carry all that load. But my children are homeschooled and I do a lot of different shows.

Recently, I just got back from Washington, D.C. And that's the good thing about, you know, homeschooling. I'm able to take my children with me to these shows and they're able to benefit from that. Going to the museums, learning and then seeing the different environments and then the cities and then, you know, just participating in that way.

And I'm thankful for my wife. You know, while I'm doing my art show, she's there to tend to the kids, take them to all the museums. And, you know, they have a blast.

And, you know, I think it's good for everybody, for us, you know, because they're able to. We were in Washington. They went to the Lincoln Memorial.

They went to the Spy Museum. And it's a good thing, you know.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, that's definitely a unique experience growing up with a lot of hands-on learning, which I thought was really cool. Yeah. So when you're taking your kids to your shows and they're watching you make art, how do you want to be a role model to them?

Like, what do you want to impart on them?

[Makwesa]

Well, you know, it's just, you know, some parents are, you know, you got to go to university to succeed. While with me, I don't feel that it's particularly you have to go to a university to succeed. You can go to a trade school or you can go into the art world.

But with my experience with being an artist, you know, I'd rather not have my children go into the art world because it's very, you know, it took me a while. I've been doing this for 25, 26 years. And it took me a while to know, to find my place in the art world where I know I feel like I am succeeding.

And all of the failures and accomplishments, like I explained earlier, you know, those things sometimes can wear you down. But I just tell my children, you know, well, my only daughter, she already has something envisioned that what she wants to be is she wants to be a dentist for kids. Because she really likes, she's really friendly.

She's really outgoing. She's really, you know, when she sees babies, she's like really attentive to them. So that is kind of something that's probably that would fit her.

And then, you know, the Hopi values of where we come from, you know, that's another part of what I try to incorporate with our daily lives. Our culture is still active. We're still trying to preserve it the best way we can.

And I'm heavily active in my culture, tending to Hopi cultural activities. And my son, you know, he's 11 and he's getting to that age to where, you know, I'm going to start to teach him all of what I know. You know, planting, we Hopis are dry farmers.

All we rely on is the elements, the snow and the rain. And those are my goals is to try to be the best parent, you know, raising them in both worlds of the Hopi and the modern society. So, but that's what I want to teach my kids.

You know, and then what I what I'm doing, you know, hard work can get you somewhere. You know, you just got to be good at it and not, you know, go half ass on it.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, so true. Yeah, I feel like when I was talking to you, I got a sense of just like how resilient you were, like doing this for so long. And then all the ups and downs you had to go through.

So I think that's great that you were trying to teach your kids that. So you've been doing this for how many years?

[Makwesa]

26 years. 26 years. Yeah.

[Ranger Dawn]

How do you see yourself growing in your craft?

[Makwesa]

Well, OK, when I first did my first show, one of my first, he was a gallery owner in Santa Fe and he retired and he's almost about 80. But I remember in 2003 when I met him, he said to me that this was just like maybe two, three years ago. He told me that, man, you changed a lot.

And he goes, when I first met you, you never really said anything. You were very quiet and just trying to make you talk, get you to talk was kind of a task. So doing the art and then demonstrating and going to these art shows, I think I've started to develop myself into learning how to speak.

Because when you're on Hopi, we're really secluded. Where Hopi is located, it's about an hour and a half here. And there's three mesas, first, second and third mesa, and there's 12 villages.

And each mesa has different villages. For instance, like the first mesa, there's three villages on top of a plateau. And those villages are called Walpi, Sitsomovi, and Tewa.

Then on the second mesa, you have Musangnuvi, Supawlavi, and Songoopavi. And then on the third mesa, you have Kikotsmovi, Old Orayvi, Paaqavi, and Hotvela. And then 45 miles from all the villages, there is a farming village, and that is called Munqapi.

And just trying to teach my children about Hopi values and the modern society, it's challenging with the distractions. But it's not going anywhere, so you just got to incorporate it and try and live both lives, two worlds.

[Ranger Dawn]

Totally. Yeah, that makes sense. Not only is Darance a kachina doll carver and a very talented one, he's also really into permaculture.

So I don't know if you wanted to talk about that a bit.

[Makwesa]

Yeah, so I'm on the board of the Hopi Tutskwa Permaculture. And what that is, is that it's a local program that is funded by Hopi-owned couple. Their name is Jacobo and Lillian Hill.

And what they do is that, well, when they first started, they were building straw bale homes for Hopi families. And they were using natural resources from around the area, building materials, straw bales, cob, using all the clay. So with that, Jacobo, the organizer, approached me and asked if I would like to be on the board.

I said, sure. So I'm new to the board now. I just recently got on.

I've been on there for now two months. But we actually live in one of those permaculture homes, straw bale homes. And with that, it's a great thing for the environment, using all natural building material.

Nothing chemical. The earth is earthen floor. The walls are straw bale.

The inside of the walls are cob. And it's a really good home for winter insulation. But then city life, building codes, they vary.

It's interesting that we do plants, trees. They do farmer's markets. They try to incorporate Hopi seeds, native seeds.

And they distribute to other families to try and help them build up their seed bank. So that's what permaculture is about.

[Ranger Dawn]

I'm personally a super fan of that. I love that. I think that's so interesting.

And it definitely shows how much you value exposing Hopi culture and teaching others about it, which I think I can definitely tell you value that a lot, which is great. You kind of touched on it earlier. What is your idea of success?

[Makwesa]

My idea of success is the basic things. You're more rich than you think you are. If you have food on the table, a roof over your head, and transportation, and your family's healthy, I think that's more success than anything.

And that's what I have. I have the basic necessities. I have a home.

My kids are healthy. Sometimes just being humble about what you have. Anywhere in any society, movie stars, art world, musicians, artists, all that, you have different personalities.

You have some that like to be out there, are very outspoken. But me, I'm kind of more of the silent person. And just be humble and just let my artwork do the talking.

And with that, I think that's part of my success, is just letting my work do the talking. If you like it, good. If not, then it's OK.

I've gone through a lot. What I do, I'm very fortunate to where I had no idea where I was going to be or where I was going to end up. I went to Japan for 18 days, and I was able to experience the culture there, the foods and all of that, meet the people.

And these dolls took me there. And recently I was in Florida and Washington, D.C., and I still got other events coming up through the year. So it's been a very good journey so far.

So that's what I think is success, with anything, just to go hard at it.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, that's a great sentiment to share. And yeah, Darance is definitely very humble when he's talking about his work. He's very talented and has been all over the place with his work.

I guess I have one last question. What do you want them to take away from this talk, from your work?

[Makwesa]

Well, I can't really tell you what to think or what to say or how to feel. But just the kachina figure did have a real big impact on society. So what I'm trying to incorporate is that I'm trying to revive some of the techniques that were done back in the 1800s, early 1900s.

Being very simple, using natural material, paints. And back then they used vegetable dyes, mineral dyes, and they used yucca plant for a paintbrush. So all of that, they tried to incorporate what they had in their environment into their kachina dolls.

So with that, there's the meaning behind the kachina dolls. And Hopi is katsina. And they represent life, long life.

And not just for the Hopi people, for everybody, for every race. What we do inside the kivas is not just for ourselves or for material things. We do it for the sake of everybody and for every living thing.

We don't do it just to do it. So that's part of what we are, of being Hopi. We're agricultural people.

We are not like some of the tribes up in the north where they're the Sioux, the Crow, the Blackfeet. They're more of a warrior tribe, the Comanche, the Apache. They are the warrior tribe.

But the Hopis are more of a peaceful people, agricultural people. So what I have here is a (Hopi word), which is a clown. And what he does is that during a dance, when there's a kachina dance, a group of these clowns will come off the roof.

And they'll be yelling, and then they'll be screaming and laughing. And they'll be talking in Hopi and talking to each other like, how are we going to get down from this roof? And then we'll be looking down and see.

What they see on the ground is everything is green, everything is nice. And they want to get down to the bottom to see all of that. So they'll maybe get a rope and have a tire.

And then they'll throw each other off the roof like a bungee, like one of those bungee cord things. I don't know what you call them. They'll be getting off, and ladies and people will be yelling and screaming and laughing.

So they'll get to the bottom, and they kind of mimic the bad things of society. And you see, you hear the people laughing at what they're doing. So it's kind of a teaching that you're laughing at some of the things that you guys are doing that is wrong.

They misbehave. They say things that's really not, you know, very nice. But they are the ones that, you know, kind of teach the people how to be and not how to act and, you know, proper behavior.

So then this one, this one's called (Hopi word). He is considered one of the rain kachinas and symbolizes the big cumulus summer dark rain clouds, moisture, and the rain, and all the good things of water. When he appears, he usually carries a boar, and he'll spin that, kind of like making that noise, that vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom.

So what that's, what he's representing is that he's trying to bring all the moisture, all the clouds, all the rain, and everything to him. All of the symbols are all traditional Hopi symbols. So each kachina has a meaning.

So a lot of people wonder, like, you know, did I make up the designs? I said, no, these are, these are all traditional. And these are all painted with natural earth mineral paints that I hand collect, and I hand process myself.

[Ranger Dawn]

So, yeah. No, that was great.

[Makwesa]

Kind of went, went the long route on that one.

[Ranger Dawn]

No, I think it was wonderful. Thank you so much for, for sharing your dolls and for sharing your story.

[Makwesa]

Yeah.

[Ranger Dawn]

I can open it up to questions now, if anyone has any.

[Makwesa]

Yeah, everybody have any questions? You know, yeah. Do I see any changes from the 10 years I've been here?

Well, there's one thing I've been really excited about. So when I first came, when I would do a transaction, I would have to walk to the post, to that, the ice cream store there. And then when they're doing construction, this was last year, I had to walk all the way to the bathroom to get my transaction done.

But this year was the first time I was actually able to do it inside the watchtower. But going to my work from my workspace at home, doing my, my artwork, not knowing where my dolls are going to end up. Who's going to, you know, I can't predict where they're going to be.

So, you know, when I do these shows, people that approach me, the reactions, the feelings, you know, that I get pays off. And plus, you know, it pays bills and daily life, you know, to live in society. But that's the most rewarding thing that I could ask for is, you know, just meeting the people, experiencing the places that I've been, eating the foods.

And, you know, it's just been wonderful. And, you know, I don't I don't want to stop. But with me being a self-employed, you know, you get to manage your own time schedule.

You know, I don't want to work today. I want to spend time with my kids. I want to take them.

I want to take them to the zoo. I'm able to do that. But, you know, at the beginning, you know, it was kind of, you know, unpredictable if you were going to make it through the show, if you were going to have income.

And then when COVID hit, you know, that was a very scary time because being self-employed, I wasn't able to rely on the check coming. It wasn't guaranteed. Then, you know, friendships was the real big thing that really got me out of it.

And I'm really thankful for that, for the people that I've met. I feel like I owe them a lot for helping me and getting me through those hard times. And right now, you know, you still kind of feel the effects of it.

But now I think it's trending to a good, you know, the economy is not very well, but, you know, people are still out there. They're buying and then, you know, things are looking good and I'm happy.

[Ranger Dawn]

That's wonderful. I love that you like grounded yourself in gratitude and that things are looking up for you. Well, it was so wonderful talking to you and getting to know you.

Yeah. Thank you so much. Everyone want to give a hand for this.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/04124A63-C70F-84D3-D1854720C4888339.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-0439D942-EE07-BE62-C02FB7B8979FA661 Chris Lewis Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service On a rainy day, Ranger Kelli got to speak with Chris Lewis about his work as a fiber/textile artist and how he’s incorporated his studies of earlier basketry over the years. He was also able to talk about his position on the board of directors for the Bears Ears Partnership and be one of the voices for Pueblo of Zuni. 1777 no full 17 2

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Chris Lewis Speaks [Chris Lewis] Knowing how deeply rooted it was, and that everyone was turning to imported baskets, my sense and my thing was, we need to bring actual handmade baskets back to the village, the technology behind it, to learn and do all that.

[Meranden] Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Lakin] And this is Lakin.

[Meranden] We would like to take the time to thank you all for listening to Season 2 so far. It has been a lot of fun being able to work on and publish these episodes over the year.

[Lakin] We are also recording and interviewing over the summer for Season 3 at Desert View, so if you're ever in the area, come check it out for our evening sunset talks.

[Meranden] Getting back to the episode, this is about Chris Lewis. He is from the Pueblo of Zuni and shares his studies and passions as a fiber artist.

[Lakin] His basketry has allowed him to learn a lot about ancestral weaving and understand how he can revitalize it in his own work.

[Meranden] He also mentions his participation being on the board of directors for the Bears Ears Partnership and the importance of educating people on ancestral lands.

[Lakin] Once again, thank you for tuning in, and here is Chris Lewis.

[Chris Lewis] ♪♪♪ (Introduces self in Zuni) Hello, my name is Christopher Lewis from Zuni. My clans are Badger, and I'm a child to Corn. My parents are Jocelyn Lewis and the late William Lewis.

I'm honored to be here to speak with you guys.

[Ranger Kelli] Chris, if you could just kind of talk about what you are doing down at the Watchtower with our demonstration program.

[Chris Lewis] I'm here as a fiber artist. Not a lot of people use that term, but I deal with fibers, textiles, strings, then the basketry, getting to plant materials and grasses and feather work, which is all part of the fiber arts. So it's a wide range of things that I work with in that capacity.

[Ranger Kelli] And I was speaking earlier with Chris down at the tower, and, man, I was down there for about three hours, by the way, just talking to him about all the stuff that he does. And I actually watch one of your YouTube videos, and on there it said basketry. I know that you have some baskets here.

I just want to know how long have you been doing basketry, but also textile through weaving as well?

[Chris Lewis] Basketry, I've probably been doing maybe, I would say, about 18 years, physical work of making basketry, but the passion behind basketry, study of basketry, started back in high school. Baskets are deeply rooted in Zuni culture. A lot of things take place with the basket being there.

In Zuni, baskets are called ho'inne. Also in Zuni, a human being is called ho'inne. So the baskets and the human being share the same name.

Until recently, I found out that the baskets, the very, very middle of a basket is called the belly button, and the spiral from the belly button out is called the road that we live on till the end of where the basket terminates. That's the human life and where our roads terminate in that basket. But I assume and think that a lot of those traditions come from when the basket makers, all they made were baskets.

Those traditions and things are yet far deeply rooted in the Pueblo culture. So I would say physically, working with my hands about 18 years, but the study of basketry has been about 40, 45 years.

[Ranger Kelli] And we'll go more deeper into what he meant by, like, studied basketry for 45 years a little bit later because I have so many questions to ask about that. But I just want to know what inspired you to work in baskets and weaving and textiles.

[Chris Lewis] I would say about the time I started learning different styles of basketry, there were maybe three or four people left in Zuni doing any type of basketry. If it was grass or plated pot rest, that was it. Nobody was weaving or making coil baskets, plated ring baskets, any type of basketry at all.

A lot of those completely had died out in the village. So just trying to think of how to revive and bring that back. And yet the wicker work also was.

I think there was only one person left doing wicker work in the village. So knowing how deeply rooted it was and that everyone was turning to imported baskets, my sense and my thing was we need to bring actual handmade baskets back to the village, the technology behind it to learn and do all that.

[Ranger Kelli] I love the language that you said, revive. And I think that's very powerful as into kind of like what we're doing today here at the canyon. You know, I think that your voice here is reviving these like traditional knowledge that needs to be heard out in the public.

And as Grand Canyon, we have about three million visitors that come every year to the South Rim. And these stories are carried down for many generations. And it's just really amazing to see your tools here that are very traditional.

And I'd like for you to kind of, if you want to explain a little bit more of these tools that you have here to our audience and maybe like the meaning of it, what would you use that for?

[Chris Lewis] Before I do that, I'm going to jump back to the first question. You asked about textiles. I said revive.

It's also revive and to revitalize. Those are the two important R words in the basketry and stuff. Revive, revitalize.

Textiles, the reason why I got into textiles was I could not constantly afford to buy my kids belts. All the different dances they do and stuff, I wanted to learn. And then also not only buying for the family, but also buying for paybacks.

We have a lot of godchildren, so when we have godchildren, we have to have traditional clothing, street attire that we put into bundles that we give them after we accept them. The belts are one of the items. Then also mantas, capes.

I weave all in traditional twills that I learned. Very few people nowadays weave in those traditional twills, diamond twill, diagonal twill, herringbone, all of that. A lot of it was declining, but there's a revitalization in that also, in the textiles.

Out of necessity, I learned to provide for my family, my kids, my nieces, nephews, other family members in that way. I always say as a Native artist, I don't think we'll ever become rich because half of what we make, we end up giving to relatives for ceremonies, weddings, birthday, Christmas, things like that. It's not the store-bought gifts, the money, but to get items like that, we say that makes you richer as a human.

A lot of that goes to that. That's where I got into the textiles and textile arts. Now to go to the basketry, the bone tools I use came out of the necessity of when I started working with baskets.

I don't know how far I'm going to go back into the next one, but I work on a project that I get to study artifacts in major museums from the greater southwest area, from around Grand Canyon all the way to Mesa Verde, all the southeast Utah and northern Arizona. Some of the things I look at are archaic basket maker, so you look at a couple thousand-year-old objects, and I replicate. I study them in museums, and I take pictures.

When I look at them, I take pictures to help me remember. Then I go back home, and I try, try, try to replicate that style of basket. Mesa Verde plated ring basket with a false braid rim was made 950 years ago, and then during the pandemic, I replicated one.

Those baskets, I studied those at the Penn Museum. I studied 11 of them, found 9 variations of that braid, and I've replicated 3 of those styles of that braid. In order to replicate them, you have to have the tools that our ancestors used prehistorically.

So a lot of my tools, and my kids love to tease me about it because they call me a Flintstone because I work with bones and stones, rocks. But a lot of my tools, I had to learn how to shape. A lot of my tools are all deer leg bones, so grinding them down, getting the shape, the same way that you see prehistoric awls.

The majority of my awls are all deer with the exception of a few eagle wing bone awls for finer things. Some of the visitors today got a kick because they said, these bones are heavier. I said, yeah, they were dinner.

They're sheep leg bones. So whatever bone, I try and see how they'll work and play around with them. But a lot of my awls, I did have to learn how to make to keep the work similar to what our ancestors prehistorically made.

[Ranger Kelli] I think that's really cool to reconnect with the past of people who have, I guess you can say, in a way have lived in these areas in the southwest region. Mesa Verde, if you all haven't been around to that park, it's actually a national park area that is near the Four Corners region. It's a very amazing human history there of the southwest, especially of the tribes that are still here today that go back to those locations and learn about their ancestors.

And I just want to ask you, Chris, how do you feel reconnecting in that way of the work that you are doing with replicating the tools, but as well as the styles that you are learning from the past? How do you feel about that?

[Chris Lewis] I guess in a way, I feel honored that these objects, I go into collections, first thing I do, stepping in, I acknowledge, I greet, and I feed. When I walk into museum collections, we believe every object we touch and study still has the soul of the plant, the soul of the maker, and still a living entity because of that. So we acknowledge them, we greet them, feed them, and offer our prayers and offerings to them.

So in turn, I think with showing that respect and everything, the makers impart their knowledge and make things clear when we're studying to see what they look like and how they go, how they're assembled. Then for me to see and handle them, my mind goes, just looking at a basket, how intelligent that person was, knowing how baskets are made, but the way they were made. There's one basket that I'm currently trying to replicate.

Today we think the size of the basket is determined by the length of the yucca leaf, how big and how deep you can make it. This basket I had studied at the Penn Museum is 16 1⁄2 inches across by 9 1⁄2 inches deep. So that means you have to be long yucca.

It's made up of three short pieces, and the locks they did are very intricate. Baskets are woven on an eight-sided hexagon shape to fit a ring. This basket is woven on a 16-side.

That's why I'm intrigued to try and figure out how they wove it on 16 sides. It's not a two-strand bind, it's a single loop bind, which I'm really wanting to try my hand at because looking at it, trying to see when I studied it. And if you can believe this basket I'm studying, I have over 300 photos of one basket.

I've counted every strand in it and how many strands before this lock goes this way, how many times this one goes that way. It's ridiculous. I actually made a trip back to the Penn Museum to spend four hours with that basket to get those pictures, to study it, count, do all the counts and everything on it because I just assumed it was made the way we make them nowadays, but getting home and looking at the pictures, there's some really different ways this is done than making that trip all the way back to Philadelphia to study it.

There's another type that's late Pueblo period. They're mostly found in the Kayenta area, but they're woven of three different styles of basketry in one, and the way it's constructed, it's mind-boggling. But how many of you know what a platoon is, like in the Old West saloons?

They're globular with that flared top. This is the exact same shape of the basket. It's globular with a small opening and like a 3- to 4-inch wide collar at the top of it.

Now we're talking maybe 300 years to 400 years before European contact and Pueblo people were weaving that shape. I'm like, okay, what were they used for? How were they used?

But that's the second one I'm looking at. There's another one which we thought was Pueblo period but comes back earlier. Radiocarbon date comes back earlier.

The only way I can term it is not a true basket but a basket bag. When you pull the top, it expands out, and when you pull the yucca cord, it closes back in. But they found that bag about the size of a basketball with 2 pounds of red corn.

Some of those really intrigued me and I sit there and try to figure out how they were constructed just off of the pictures. Some of them I can't empty out the content so I only get exterior photos. But other museums, I might put it out there and other museums say, oh, we have something similar and they'll send me a picture that says that's what I'm looking for and I'll travel up there and look at their baskets to see the insides and stuff and put two and two together.

It's just a lot of that working with the materials and figuring out how they were doing things and just also thinking of where their intelligent level was at to construct some of these baskets and what they were doing.

[Ranger Kelli] And that's why I was like, you're just not a fiber artist. You are a Native researcher. And when I say Native researcher, it's interesting because I think of traditional ecological knowledge versus Western science.

And the stuff that you were telling me today, you actually go to the museums, put on white gloves, and do your own investigation of these baskets. And having these scientists ask you for help, and that's amazing to know that basically I think that it is important to replicate and understand and learn how these baskets are made. And one story that kind of really, I think, touched with me was that you're basically talking about different paints from different plants that actually has been grown around the region, but these scientists can't identify what plant this is to make that paint color.

And you said sunflower. And I was like, this is really cool to know that you can identify these plants around the region to know what specific plant is making that paint. And I don't think you're just a Native researcher, but also, Chris, another work that I think is also very important to talk about is you are on a board with the Bears Ears Partnership.

And if you all don't know, Bears Ears is actually a location, it's a national monument that is in Utah, and it is an amazing cultural and natural resource site that also works with tribes out here in the Southwest. And can you tell a little bit more about that partnership and what that is?

[Chris Lewis] Yeah, I am a board member. I sit on the board of directors. We work a lot with indigenous communities that have ties to the Bears Ears.

When I first was accepted onto the board of directors, I was the first Pueblo representative to sit on the board of directors. So that gave Pueblos a voice over our ancestral sites, our shrines, our cultural areas in the Bears Ears. We do a lot of work.

The biggest one was the litigation over the national monument. I don't know if you guys knew, in Obama's, when he was president, he made that a national monument. And then when Trump went in, he shrunk it down.

Then he went back to almost the size it was designated as, but there was litigation with the state of Utah over some of that, which we played a large part of with other groups to fight them against it, which I'm happy to say that Utah dropped their lawsuit on that and everything's staying. Currently right now, there's some stuff going on with the lands between. Those are not within the designated monument, but the state of Utah has thousands, hundreds of thousands of sites all over the state of Utah that are ancestral Puebloan.

Then you have also, and I believe they're trying to change the name, but there's the Diné, the Navajo Pueblitas, the fortified homesteads, and a lot of other things, also youth sites and things like that. And then we have the ambassador program, the Visit with Respect, teaching visitors how to respectfully visit those areas, meet and greet. Then we have an education center where we educate visitors that come in about not only the Bears Ears and the sites around, but also the indigenous communities around the area that have associations with Bears Ears.

And the only way we do a lot of this stuff is through the donations from the small community of the Bears Ears Partnership.

[Ranger Kelli] Really amazing to hear you not only protecting and preserving ancestral tools that you are trying to revitalize, and also you're trying to create a voice for not only Zuni, but like you said, Pueblos, nations across the Southwest to protect ancestral sites. And that is part of Bears Ears National Monument. And I think you did say that you want to also educate visitors who are visiting these locations to kind of recreate respectfully, but also leave no trace.

I just want to hear from your perspective of why that's important to educate that.

[Chris Lewis] Not only ancestral cultural sites and areas, but overall, even your front yard, back yard. If you throw things on the ground or dump things that can be hazardous, it won't affect you right away, but maybe the next generation of your family, the accumulation on the earth, that a lot of the plastics, things like that, don't degrade right away. I was surprised, even when you're hiking, you think peeling a tangerine, a cutie, and throwing it under a tree, that you're helping the environment to continue by composting, but an orange will not decay for 100 years.

So that orange will just stay on the surface, could harm the wildlife that may try to eat it, the oils and chemicals that oranges naturally produce. So even minor things like that, like cans stay on the surface a long time, rusting and things like that. So it's always in the back of my mind.

If you go somewhere, what you carry in, carry out. Try not to change the environment except for your footsteps. A lot of these things can affect plants, and also in myself, it's really unsightly to come across someone else's garbage that I eventually pick up and carry out, but it's always like completely remote areas coming and finding huge dump sites, everyday garbage.

[Ranger Kelli] It's interesting because I think that people don't realize how much not staying on the trail can damage the environment. It can reduce the vegetation. Also the native plants that you are trying to study to keep those plants going for understanding your history as a pebble.

So I'm just going to ask one more question. What do you want the audience to take away from what we just talked about? What is one thing you want the audience to take away?

[Chris Lewis] It would be that indigenous-made crafts, especially basketry and stuff, the continuality of it goes back thousands of years for us Pueblo people to know that the baskets carry the life of the plant, carry the life of the maker, because when I'm working, the sweat, I guess you could say the sweat, the skin cells, and sometimes my blood ends up in a basket, so my life is going into that basket. Any basket maker, their life is going into that. And then that the name in our language for a basket and a human are the same, representing life.

Just the appreciation of it, because that's one of the main arts that is the hardest to do, and not many people are doing them anymore, are the baskets. So just knowing that all that work, hours, days, months to create one basket, the appreciation of it.

[Ranger Kelli] Thank you so much. I know we had a very short conversation. I'm very sad.

And if you do have any questions, Chris is going to be here. Come up here directly to him. And have a great evening.

[Ranger Jonah] Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 04 Jul 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/8EA28CF7-AB7A-7365-74153E77143855D8.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-8EDB9E05-BBA9-DD09-FB566765EED87BED Ed Kabotie Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, ranger Kelli talks with Ed Kabotie who is a Hopi and Tewa musician, painter and advocate for his Indigenous communities. Not only does Ed address many issues that our Indigenous people face today, but he also performs a couple of his songs that carry the theme of empowerment. 2336 no full 16 2

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Ed Kabotie Speaks Transcript

Ed Kabotie: In my culture, I feel like every day begins with land acknowledgement, you know. I mean, you're encouraged to rise up every day when the sun comes up to greet the sun. You know, that's, to me, that's land acknowledgement, you know.

Ed Kabotie: We pray for the world, we pray for the people in it, our loved ones, just like we all do.

Lakin: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

Meranden: And this is Meranden..

Lakin: In this episode, Ranger Kelli talked with Ed Kabotie, who is a Hopi and Tewa musician, painter, and advocate for his Indigenous communities.

Meranden: Not only does Ed address many issues that our Indigenous people face today, but he also performs a couple of his songs that carry a theme of empowerment.

Lakin: Take a listen to Ed's journey, and we hope you enjoy this episode.

Ranger Kelli: I would like to have Ed Kabotie introduce himself. Let's give a round of applause for Ed.

Ed Kabotie: [Speaks Hopi]

Ed Kabotie: So, first of all, my name is, Flutesong is my Hopi name, and I'm from the Badger Clan and from the village of Shongopovi, Second Mesa in Hopi, but hang on.

Ed Kabotie: [Speaks Tewa]

Ed KabotieL My name is also Cloud Mountain from my mother's side, and on the Tewa side, I'm from the village of Singing Water in northern New Mexico, and still from the Badger Clan. So, I'm both from the Tewa people and Hopi nation, and as Kelli had mentioned, I've had the blessing of hanging out here at Desert View quite a bit.

Ed Kabotie: My grandfather did the murals at the [Desert View] Watchtower on the second floor of the Watchtower back in 1932. So, ever since I was a kid, you know, coming to this area has been special for me in my relationship with my grandfather, who was a very strong mentor to me. He was born in 1900.

Ed Kabotie: His father was sent to prison in 1906 for refusing him to sending him to Carlisle Indian School, and he was only six years old at the time, you know, but I'm grateful that my great-grandfather made that stance, even though he was put in prison for it. But my grandfather leads a very colorful life, you know, leading up to the Watchtower paintings, obviously, and he passed away when I was 16 years old. So, he was a very important role model for me, and it's really a blessing to me anytime I come out, so, it's a blessing to be here.

Ranger Kelli: Thank you, Ed. And like Ed said, Grand Canyon is actually ancestral homelands for 11 traditionally associated tribes here, and the 11 tribes are the Navajo Nation, Hopi Nation, Zuni Pueblo, and as well as the Havasupai, Hualapai, Yavapai-Apache Nation, Las Vegas Band of Paiute, Moapa Band of Paiute, San Juan [Southern] Band of Paiute, and as well as Kaibab Band of Paiute. So, there's a lot, and Shivwits Paiute.

Ranger Kelli: Sorry, I'm just trying to remember all 11. So, these traditionally associated tribes really have, this place is a very close connection of Grand Canyon. It's a place that is still home to the tribal members.

Ranger Kelli: And with Hopi, and this is just a picture that was passed around of Ed's grandfather, Fred Kabotie, that did the murals here at the Watchtower in 1932 when this was built. So, really great. You can kind of see a lot of the culture representation that is built here in the tower.

Ranger Kelli: And then for Ed, I know you said that your grandfather is your role model, and you're an actual artist here. And Ed Kabotie is actually here for two more days as part of our cultural demonstration program. And he's just not an artist, but he's a musician as well.

Ranger Kelli: So, he's just all around an amazing person, you know, that has been really expressing his story through his artwork. And I want to, like, you know, ask you, when did you start painting and doing your artwork?

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, this is a cool question, you know, because I feel like in Native communities, when people ask me, when did you start playing music? When did you start doing art? I always say, you know, really where I'm from, everybody is an artist, and everybody is a musician.

Ed Kabotie: Because at the time you're a child, you know, I mean, I have a little grandson that I see every now and then in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Whenever I see that little dude, you know what I mean, first thing I'm going to do is what most grandparents do in our culture. They'll sit him on your lap, you start singing to him, you know, and you start making his arm movements, you know, of what he would do, you know, if he were dancing.

Ed Kabotie: And so, I think I would have to say the same thing about art, because we don't think about it this way, but you might say that we're all raised in the arts, you know, as Puebloan people, you know, we are symbols, the symbols that we interact with, the symbols that we communicate to the universe with, to communicate with one another with, the songs that we sing, you know, it's not necessarily looked at as art, but rather as the way that we interact with and worship the universe, you know, worship the creator.

Ed Kabotie: I do have a remembrance when I was four years old, and my father put this in a poem called The Buffalo Dancer, because when I was a kid, like most Pueblo kids, you know, I mean, our first love is the drum, you know, and we just love jamming out, and we, I mean, we just, to me when I was a kid, everything was a buffalo dance, you know, and so I had a little Linus blanket, and I'd tie horns on the ends of it, tie little knots, and I'd throw it on, and that'd be my buffalo dance, you know, I'd take the knots out, and I'd stretch it out, that made my eagle dance, you know, my wings, you know, and my father wrote down a poem, he called it The Buffalo Dancer, and at the beginning of the poem, he quoted me when I was four years old, I remember this, this is a very early memory, I said, "this little boy is an artist, and he's four years old, and this is for his dad," I was just painting something on, I think, a paper sack, but anyway.

Ranger Kelli: Wow, and I know a lot of your artwork, and you're a musician, your songs, you kind of really focus a lot on Native American history, and I found this article from Arizona PBS of ASU, which was really amazing article that ASU wrote about Ed Kabotie, and it said that your songs that you create are designed to fill in some of the blanks that are missing from the version of history that many Americans grew up hearing, and your song that really just kind of resonate with what the article said, was a song of land acknowledgement, and I think that, you know, hearing that song, and just knowing what that song's about, why is it important for people to kind of learn about why land acknowledgement is important to hear and to talk about?

Ed Kabotie: That's cool, I think that's a really cool question, because you're kind of opening a can of worms. Let me just say, you know, like there's this popular thing, you know, in our country right now of land acknowledgements, you know, I have mixed feelings about it, in all honesty, you know, in my culture, I feel like every day begins with land acknowledgement, you know, I mean, you're encouraged to rise up every day, when the sun comes up, to greet the sun, you know, that's, to me, that's land acknowledgement, you know, we pray for the world, we pray for the people in it, our loved ones, just like we all do, you know, but to me, that's land acknowledgement.

Ed Kabotie: What I think people should be doing, when they say they're doing land acknowledgement, is not only recognize that we're on, we're all brothers and sisters in this world, that we're really living in kind of a borrowed space, I don't think borrow is the right word, you know, but this is the land of the creator, you know, I mean, it's his land, it doesn't really belong to us, we can act like it does, but you know, even the world itself will teach us that, you know, it doesn't belong to us, you know, what I think is missing in popular land acknowledgement is a blood acknowledgement, you know, I mean, yes, you're on the lands that were previously inhabited by Supai Nation, by Navajo Nation, by Hopi Nation, you know, other parts of the country, you know, you're acknowledging different tribes that were there before, but I'm like, so why do we just call it land acknowledgement?

Ed Kabotie: Why don't we acknowledge how we acquired these lands, you know, the blood that was shed to acquire these lands? You know, to me, that's really what needs to be said, so maybe what Kelli's talking about is a specific song, and maybe I can play that for you, so you kind of understand the context of the question as well. So just asking for the Creator's help, and yeah, I'm gonna play this tune called Land Acknowledgement, which is really a reaction to land acknowledgements.

Ed Kabotie: What does it mean to acknowledge a land that's been raped and plundered by the greed of man? What do you mean when you speak our name while still you occupy the lives that your fathers claim?

Ed Kabotie: Why remind us that your cities and towns are built on places we call hallowed ground? Remember the people, acknowledge the land, acknowledge the blood that stains our hearts and hands. Fifty million women, children, and men were sacrificed to buy you your religious freedom, destroy our lives, strip away our pride, send us out of sight, out of mind to die, and now they're butchering the lands of our reservations to build their instruments of devastation.

Ed Kabotie: Remember the people, acknowledge the land, acknowledge the blood that stains our hearts and hands. Your words never seem to me to comprehend the atrocity. Words will never be a way to heal the guilt of this country, but this land was never yours or mine.

Ed Kabotie: We've been gifted to live in this space and time. The one who made all things can bring both endings as well as new beginnings. Rend your heart, see through the veil of lies, relearn to live within the circle of life and then remember the people.

Ed Kabotie: Acknowledge the land, acknowledge the blood that stains our hearts and hands. Your American dream has never been what it seemed. Sacrilegious, blasphemous, disastrous destiny.

Ed Kabotie: A little bit of a twist on land acknowledgement.

Ranger Kelli: I don't want us to start so heavy, so I apologize, but because we're just kind of tying into like, you know, Grand Canyon National Park, we're really including in our park goals of more Indigenous connections and part of this Indigenous connections is starting to acknowledge the tribal nations who have lived here before it was a National Park and a lot of Ed's music and artwork really focused on a lot of social and environmental justice and his artwork.

Ranger Kelli: I see a lot of your work really just tying into water, you know, too. So, and I think that, you know, here at Desert View at Grand Canyon, a lot of our park ranger programs, we really focus on the western science of how Grand Canyon was formed and one of the elements that we see here at Desert View is focusing on this very powerful river called the Colorado River and we only know the western science of how Grand Canyon was formed because of that river, too, to build, obviously, the canyon, but people don't really realize, too, about the cultural ties and the significance of this water and a lot of your artwork and his grandfather's artwork. If y'all have a chance, if you're here tomorrow, definitely come out to the watchtower and that second floor where his grandfather has this amazing mural and you can definitely know that is a Colorado River and your artwork has a lot of the water representation, too, and I just want to kind of acknowledge that you really focus on water is life.

Ed Kabotie: Yeah.

Ranger Kelli: And you educate about that to the public across the Colorado Plateau. Can you talk a little bit more about what water is life to our visitors here?

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, there's so much water imagery in ceremonial clothing, you know, there's so much water imagery in our songs, you know, it's just a constant thing. So, it's in some ways water is life, is a very literal thing obviously for people who live in this desert region.

Ed Kabotie: Picture this, that in Hopi, you know, just to the east, directly east of us, that's the oldest continuously inhabited communities in North America. Walpi, Songopavi, Ojaivi, and Acoma Pueblo in New Mexico all were established about a thousand years ago, you know, we're not the typical United States come and pull the rug out from under us type of people, we're not, you know, we've never been relocated, we're at the same places we were at time of contact in 1539 and we're in the same place as we were 500 years before that, you know.

Ed Kabotie: What's remarkable about that is if you ever go to Hopi, because the scientist has told us that, you know, Utah and Colorado, like Mesa Verde area and Bears Ears area, that emptied out from Pueblo in occupation around 1300 and they say it's because of a drought and I say this, well if it was, and then they went south, right, and began settling along the Rio Grande, which makes sense if it's a drought, but what doesn't make sense is the boost of the population in Hopi, like if you're leaving a drought, you don't go to Hopi, you know, there's no running rivers there, you know.

Ed Kabotie: What's remarkable about that 1,000 year occupation there in Hopi is it's been totally 100 percent dependent upon rain for our survival. It's dry farming out there, you know, that's how we've been farming for the last 1,000 years, it's dry farming techniques, you know, without water, you know, so yeah.

Ranger Kelli: And I know that like, you know, there's one picture that really speaks a lot and I think that kind of resonates with what you were saying about farming too because a lot of your artwork and your painting, you have this brown river connecting with this river here and people don't really understand why these two rivers connect, mean a lot for a lot of the tribes here in the southwest and just kind of give you a little bit of history too about the Colorado River.

Ranger Kelli: This river goes over 1,000 miles and supposed to come out of the Baja California, but now we have dams that are kind of in place along this whole river and I do have a visual of a map of the Colorado River and tribes that surround that river in their traditional homelands, but these tribes on this map don't live all surrounding the Colorado River anymore, so these tribes are now in reserve areas, what are called now reservations, and this water here, none of the tribes actually have rights to it, but we can use tributaries that feed into the river that we have rights for it now, which amazing part of this history that just happened was the Hualapai Nation just started getting some rights to use a lot of that water now, so it's just, you know, this is today news this year, so this is just like a long time of these systemic issues that Ed Kabotie really puts in his music, but also creates events that is around what the Colorado rights are to Native communities, and one of these events that you do year-round is Rumble on the Mountain, and I know this past year you did one and I went to that, it was a really amazing and powerful event, oh my gosh, six hour show, yeah, all day, can you explain what this event that you do, you know, hosts every year, and you have different themes every year, and I would like for you to just kind of talk about that.

Ed Kabotie: So Rumble on the Mountain started about 10 years ago, it's a show that was named after an earthquake that took place in Flagstaff after a local ski resort opened with, became the only or the first ski resort in the world to use 100% reclaimed sewer water to create artificial snow, in direct opposition, in opposition to all of the outcry of every single tribe listed on that piece of paper right there, you know, the city of Flagstaff turned up their nose at us and sold reclaimed sewer water to the to the Snowbowl, and so that created the impetus for this show.

Ed Kabotie: I mean there's a lot of backstory, but I'll kind of spare you guys that, but every year what we do is we focus on an issue, the first year was focused on that ski resort issue, you know, but we focused on the Colorado River, we focused on this past year, we focused on the only operating uranium mine in the state of Arizona, on Navajo Nation there's 500 to 1,000 open pit uranium mines left over from the Cold War, the mining companies that came in and extracted the ore didn't take any responsibility to clean it up, neither the government that bought the ore take responsibility to clean that up, they leave that to the tribes, so consequently we've got what 500 to 1,000 open pit uranium mines on Navajo Nation today, you know, poisoning their water systems, etc., so because of their experience all of the tribes in Arizona have said no way do we allow uranium mining on our reservations, but that has not stopped Energy Fuels Company from coming in and working with the Forest Service to acquire lands seven miles south of us, and so the Grand Canyon Mine, aka Pinon Plain Mine, is the only operating uranium mine in the state of Arizona today, and it sits on top of the aquifer of the Havasupai Nation.

Ed Kabotie: The Havasupai Nation were kicked out of the Grand Canyon in 1918 so that we could have a National Park in 1919, and today we're poisoning their water systems, you know, where we relocated them with the only operating uranium mine, so this is a big concern and we hope to have another set of shows like Kelli was talking about to raise awareness, because people don't know this, you know, they don't know that out in Hopi land that our water systems are riddled with arsenic, you know, they don't recognize that on Hopi and Navajo that many of our people still don't have running water or electricity.

Ed Kabotie: National spotlight during the pandemic was kind of showcased the disparity that we live in in health care, but that also involves the land, it's not only the people, it's not only the treatment of the people in northern Arizona, it's also the land that has suffered. People come from all over the world to visit Grand Canyon National Park, and unfortunately, but I'm very grateful for you guys, because unfortunately so many people leave just as ignorant about the conditions of the tribes, who we are, our experiences as they were when they came, so this is really a blessing to me, you know, to be able to share some of this with you.

Ranger Kelli: Thank you, and you said Snowbowl, and that is, this is just an amazing place at Desert View to kind of see a really beautiful mountain south of us. People always ask, what is this mountain? And that is also a sacred mountain for a lot of the tribes here in Arizona, and part of that mountain and the Grand Canyon, and seeing these very sacred places here at Grand Canyon, or not Grand Canyon, around the region, as we're, as visitors are driving through it, and not knowing these types of history from the tribes, and the challenges that we have lived, and the Park Service is really wanting to start working with tribal people today to start learning about the management of this land before it became a National Park, and with this goal that we're creating here in the Park Service is also putting people, actually not putting people, but starting to open the doors and having the tribes now have, are wanting to have access back to their home again, and I think this is a really amazing goal that Grand Canyon National Park is doing, and how do you feel about how this direction of the Park Service is going?

Ranger Kelli: Like, you know, knowing that the Havasupai name has, or the Havasupai, I keep saying Havasupai Gardens, but it used to be called Indian Gardens down on the Bright Angel Trail, but just had the name changing of that location on the Bright Angel Trail to Havasupai Garden to really honor the tribe, and this happened on May 4th [2023] last year, so these are like historical events that are just very new to the Park Service and to the history of our people, so how do you feel about this? All of these amazing things are happening now moving forward, and I, yeah.

Ed Kabotie: Skeptical. Yeah, I honestly, I mean, that is probably my first reaction is like, okay, what's going on here, you know, but in my conversations with Grand Canyon Park Superintendent, you know, he's been here for a little while, Ed Keable, and when he first came, a lot of the development here at Desert View kind of amped up, and they said they want to, you know, they want to focus on indigenous interaction here, and my reaction to that would, well, that's cool, right? You got the least traveled spot in the entire park, and you're going to stick us on this little corner of it, yeah? It sounds like a reservation to me, you know what I mean?

Ed Kabotie: And I'm really grateful that I recently, Ed Keable and I did some work at the Grand Canyon river guides training seminar, and he used, he quoted me in his speech, and he remembered that statement, and that makes me hopeful, you know, because he said, you know, I understand that sentiment, and that, you know, the objective is that this will be a ripple, and I feel like Grand Canyon National Park is proving that to some degree, you know?

Ed Kabotie: It worries me, and I'm still skeptical. I worry when we're moving too fast, you know? I worry that we're not acknowledging, I'm worried that we're not acknowledging what the canyon is to our people.

Ed Kabotie: I'm worried that we haven't defined what our etiquette should be in this landscape, but at the same time, I am encouraged by initiatives that do have some feet on them, you know?

Ranger Kelli: Yeah, it's, you know, it's hard to think about historical trauma that has been still embedded with tribal members today, and with our families, and they kind of teach us survival tools to live in this, I would say, colonial world, you know, that we have never, our grandparents have had a hard time living through, and I feel like what you said just a while ago really resonates in, like, how do we do this in a way of bringing multiple perspectives, multiple stories, multiple safest ways where every community member does feel like this is a safe place to now have that relationship and connection back in this place, and when you were singing, you know, a while ago, the water song in your language, I almost cried because the canyon needs to hear more of those songs.

Ranger Kelli: The canyon just needs to hear the voice of the tribal members. The canyon just misses it, and it also, it's a reconnection for us as tribal members here, and that's a very powerful message, and right now, we are almost, we have, like, about 15 minutes before sunset or 10 minutes before sunset. I'd just like to ask you one more question before we kind of open it up to the audience if they want to ask a question, but what would you like the people to take away from what we just talked about in our moment together?

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, I love that question because, you know, what I would really love to emphasize to people here is that, is the plight of the people and lands of the Colorado Plateau. I appreciate that Kelli mentions the song in my language, you know, Kelli's Dine, you know, I'm Tewa/Hopi. We're not the same.

Ed Kabotie: We don't have the same culture. We don't have the same beliefs. There's many tribes here.

Ed Kabotie: When you go to Europe, you recognize that Spain is not Germany, and Germany is not Poland, you know, and Poland is not, you know, Italy, but for some reason, when you come to America, we're all Native American, you know, and somebody finds out you're Native American, they say, hey, you know this guy in New Hampshire, you know, you know, he's an Indian, you know what I mean? I'm not picking on you. Coincidence, but, you know, it's like we're many nations, you know, I would like people to recognize that when they come to the canyon, you know, recognize the great diversity here, but also recognize that each one of those tribes has their own story and their own experience of heavy injustice, especially here in Grand Canyon region.

Ed Kabotie: I don't know of any other place that the tribes are exploited the way that they are here, you know, the threats to the Havasupai with Grand Canyon mine, the situation with Hopi with arsenic in our contaminated water systems. That's if you have running water in Hopi, you know, the Navajo with uranium contamination on their reservation and the water systems there. The fact that today, right, we have Grand Canyon Mine and we have a mining company that says they're from Canada, and they want to take uranium from the Supai here at Grand Canyon, essentially one reservation, take it from the bottom of Navajo Nation to the top of Navajo Nation to the already impacted communities of Navajo, take it on up to yet another reservation in Utah to the only existing uranium mill in the entire United States of America. Where is that located?

Ed Kabotie: Right next to the Ute, Mountain Ute Reservation, only threatening their water systems. And it's outrageous. And I think if the public eye could see it, they would recognize that it's outrageous, you know.

Ed Kabotie: We've received national attention to our national conscience about one Standing Rock, but I would say there's 500 'Standing Rocks' that we still haven't heard about, you know, and this really is one of them, you know, northern Arizona. So I would say that's what I would want people that come here to know and to hear and to send us a prayer. We're sending prayers for you all the time.

Ed Kabotie: I mean, really, literally, and hopefully that's what we do. You know, we pray for the whole world. We pray for all of your families and the goodness and the balance of all life, and we would just ask, you know, that you would also do the same.

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, think of us, pray for us. Cool.

Ranger Kelli: Thank you, Ed. Oh my gosh, I'm like, ah, I'm just gonna have to applaud. Ed Kabody is a very inspiring person to me because as a being a Native woman, you're a speaker for all Native people across, you know, and this, we call it, I call it Turtle Island, you know, and I feel like you really help bring us awareness, but also awareness through music that speaks for itself when you sing it, you know, you can feel that connection, you can feel your emotion in how you sing it, and I just want to ask you one more time, do you want to play us one more song?

Ed Kabotie: Yeah.

Ranger Kelli: Before we enjoy sunset? .

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, it's happening. I'm gonna play you a song from a Native American band who was on Motown Records in 1970 and 71, 72. I venture to say most of you have never heard of them, but it's a band called XIT, and I love the sentiment of this song.

Ed Kabotie: Our people have survived, and our eyes flow with memories. The reservation, it is our home, and for now we're gonna let it be. But the battle, it is not over.

Ed Kabotie: Yes, our struggle has begun. A new hope, it has been born, and our sunny day will come. [Chorus] Look up in the skies, as the wind whispers in the trees, atop a floating cloud that echoes to be free.

Ed Kabotie: In time we'll get back the life that they took away, and their land of make-believe will be ours again someday. [Chorus] Thank you, thank you so much. Ranger Kelli: Right now, sunset's happening, so I just want you all to, you know, get a moment to enjoy sunset, and have a good evening.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and does not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices visit www.nps.gov/grca.

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 27 Jun 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/EF5310D3-0DD7-FF1F-F5529167B1EEBCFC.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-EF589AD5-A37D-B774-8CBB5EEBDD218F34 Davis Coonsis Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Davis Coonsis spoke about the different artforms he works on from silversmithing to carving to carpentry! As he displayed some of his artwork, he was able to explain what each piece meant to himself in his Zuni culture. 1595 no full 15 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Davis Coonsis Speaks

[Davis Coonsis] My father was a jeweler, so I always had the art. And then my sister, she would use ceramics and paint them. So that's how I was introduced into art. So art was always around me. To me, it just kind of came naturally.

[Meranden] Hello everyone, welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Ranger Grace] And this is Ranger Grace.

[Meranden] We are very excited to release this episode that features Davis Coonsis. He is a Zuni artist whose work consists of silversmithing, wood carving, stone carving, pottery, and carpentry.

[Ranger Grace] He was able to speak with Ranger Lizzie about how he has diversified his artistry, how he became a demonstrator at Desert View, and explains the significance of some of his pieces he displayed during his interview.

[Meranden] Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. We hope you have been able to explore the different episodes of Season 2.

[Ranger Grace] And here is Davis Coonsis.

[Davis Coonsis] My name is Davis Coonsis. I'm from Zuni, New Mexico. We come from, we're from Zuni.

We're Pueblo people. And this is one of, the Grand Canyon is part of our ancestral lands. But I'm a carver, I'm a wood carver.

And I also do jewelry, silversmithing, and stone carving also. And I also do carpentry, like building houses and stuff.

[Ranger Lizzie] Awesome. Davis, I thought I would just open up this program and kind of ask you, what is your connection with the Grand Canyon?

[Davis Coonsis] Our origin stories come from the Grand Canyon. It is our legend and, well, it's our story that is like, you know how the Christians have their Adam and Eve story. Well, this is where, almost like our origin story.

This is where our people came out from the Grand Canyon somewhere. And that's why there's a strong connection with, you know, anybody if you're like from Zuni or just Native Americans, because this is where our birthplace of our people was.

[Ranger Lizzie] Thanks for sharing. Can you tell me a little bit about your relationship with the demonstrator program here? How did you hear about it?

What made you want to join or be a part of it?

[Davis Coonsis] First time I heard about it, I think, was through my girlfriend, Noreen. She's been coming here to the Grand Canyon for quite a while now, because she's a potter. And, yeah, she knows that program.

So when I met her, she introduced me to this program, and we both have been coming since. It's been like two years since I came over here. So I'm really gratified that, you know, I've been invited to this program.

You know, it gives us exposure, and then, you know, it shows the people, like, the connections that we have to the Grand Canyon.

[Ranger Lizzie] Totally. So you've been a part of our demonstrator program now for about, you said, this is your third year now?

[Davis Coonsis] About second year.

[Ranger Lizzie] Second year, okay. How long have you been an artist?

[Davis Coonsis] I've been an artist, I don't know, I guess, ten years. But then I've kind of been an artist, like, all my life. You know, as a child, you know, you try to draw stuff and do stuff.

It just doesn't come out. Like, you don't become, I guess, serious about it until, like, maybe, like, until after you've had, like, you've done your college and other things, and maybe those things didn't work out, so you go back to your art, and that's where you find most enjoyment, you know, in doing your art. It's like, you know, people call it work, but, you know, you gotta, it's not really work, it's just art.

You enjoy doing what you do, you know.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, and looking back at, you were saying, kind of your childhood, and you were always creating, what did that look like, kind of creating in your childhood?

[Davis Coonsis] I guess I would draw pictures sometimes, like, late at night, I guess, when, you know, when you have your weekend as a child, you know. You stay up late at night, I mean, sometimes, I don't know why, me and my brother would sometimes, like, be drawing, like, cartoons, like Smurfs or whatever. I don't know, because we're waiting, I guess, for Saturday morning when they used to show cartoons and stuff like that.

But I guess it kind of all started there, you know, just drawing little pictures and things. And then later on, you know, in life, you know, you have your art classes, which they give to you in school. So, you know, do your drawings and stuff like that.

But I didn't go to your regular, you know, like, regular high school, because I went to, like, a Christian high school, and if I went to the regular Zuni high school, I would have been taught, like, they have the Native American arts. But since I went to a Christian high school, I didn't really, wasn't really introduced into the Native arts and stuff like that. Mostly just contemporary art, you know.

But then after, I mean, during high school, I was, my father was a jeweler, so I was, always had the art. And then my sister was, she would use ceramics and paint them. So that's how I was introduced into art.

So art was always around me. To me, I just kind of, I guess, came naturally. And then I would help my father do jewelry.

At first, I would just help him buff, but buff and stuff. And then later on came, like, to where I actually tried the silver, tried the welding the silver, soldering the silver. And then from then on, I just started, you know, liking doing, starting doing woodwork.

While I was doing carving at the same time, too, the stone carving. It's kind of like, I guess everything was just kind of, like, there. So I just kind of, like, dabbing into it.

So that's what I was doing. And then finally, I think I was told to make a bench for some, some cultural event that was happening in Zuni. So, my family, actually.

And so I had to make a small bench. And I think that's where everything started as far as the woodwork. I made a small bench, and then it was just a plain bench.

But then later on, I went to make bigger benches. So I just made one. And then, to me, it just looked plain.

So that's when I just started, like, putting paint on the designs and stuff. And then, and then later on, the carving of the flowers came, came. And then, you know, designing of these, like, the borders.

And that's how it just became. So I guess it's, like, just a progress. Kind of, like, seeing other people's work also.

Like, with the woodworks. See what they've done. And, oh, I can do something a little bit different.

And that's how it just all began. And then, so now that I've grown older, I do, now I do jewelry, too. Like, I do the soldering and everything, actually.

[Ranger Lizzie] So you kind of have a return to jewelry then? Because I know you said you were doing that a little bit with your father.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah, because it was kind of hard for me when I was just helping my dad. I wasn't, I guess didn't have the patience to do the solder. Because, you know, you have to be a steady hand.

And I guess kind of, like, scared to do it the first time. But eventually I got it. And I'm still learning.

But, you know, I got the basics down.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, so it seems like you have, you know, when you're introducing yourself, you're doing carving, you're doing jewelry, you're doing pottery. You're having so many different art forms. How do you balance all of these different creative outlets and carpentry as well?

[Davis Coonsis] I guess I don't really try to pick any one medium as a favorite. You know, I just try to do whatever I feel like at the moment. And then just let it flow.

And then once you kind of get tired of it, you go on to another thing. Or you try different mediums or things. But balance, I don't know if I really have balance.

Because, you know, I just try to find the time to do it. That's what I do.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, it's hard to find the time.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Kind of coming back to this piece, I know you talked a little bit about how you were inspired by your sister's pottery. And we talked about that earlier. Can you just talk a little bit about the designs here that we're seeing?

[Davis Coonsis] Well, I was telling them that I was always wanting to do pottery. But I couldn't, so there was nobody to teach me. But I started doing the woodwork and then got an idea.

I said, well, what if I just put the pottery designs onto here? So that's how it kind of just all began. Everybody liked it.

I showed it to my family, and they liked it. I said, yeah, okay, well, that's when everything started. And some of the designs I get, too, from just, like, nature.

I guess you look around, because you would think, where did our people, you know, our ancestors, you know, where did they get their ideas? And, you know, they didn't have anything like what we have in our modern days. So I would think they probably would have looked at the sky, you know, see the cloud formations, you know, how they have, like, little wisps and swirls and stuff.

And then just probably how they got their ideas, I would think. Because sometimes I would look up in the sky, I would see, like, a little design or just, like, repetitive design and stuff. Like these designs, they're almost like sometimes when I look up in the sky, you can see, like, these designs, just a single one like that.

So that's where sometimes I get my inspirations from. But, like, these, like some of this, I think this rosette design came from the Spaniards, because the Spaniards had a, they had, like, they came with wooden boxes, and, you know, had art on them, and they had, like, a rosette on it. So I think that's where this rosette came from, for the potters, from the Spaniards.

And then these other designs are, like, the deer designs that comes from, like, I guess the potters, you know, their husbands would go out hunting, so they, you know, wanted to, they were building pots, you know, and they were waiting, and they wanted their men to be successful in their hunt. So they would be waiting, and they would paint these deer, almost sort of like a little prayer onto the bow to make them successful in their hunt. So that's why they painted deer on these.

And some of these, like, these designs, like, you know, represent water. I know I didn't say, like, clouds, but, you know, clouds bring rain. So here, you know, in the southwest, that's what the people, you know, always wanted, like, water or rain, so they would paint these little water designs on their pots.

So, you know, like a little prayer, I guess, on the bow. And some of these are, like, this would be, like, a star. This is something they see in the night.

Sometimes, you know, they would paint those stars up on the pots. So, you know, back in the day, you know, the stars helped the people travel to see where they're going. So at night, you know, they have a star to follow to bring them back home safely to where they live.

And I usually put a little turquoise in the middle that gives it, like, the heart of the whole object.

[Ranger Lizzie] That's cool.

[Ranger Lizzie] Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah, I think it's just amazing to see just how, like, rich these designs are and how connected they are also, like, to your history and to your, also just, like, to nature. It's so cool.

I do have, so, you know, as we were saying before, you have so many different mediums that you work in, and I'd love to share with you guys so you have an opportunity to see all of the different art forms that Davis is doing. I thought that we could talk a little bit about them and then pass them around.

[Davis Coonsis] All right.

[Ranger Lizzie] So I know we have some of your wood carvings. Can you tell us a little bit kind of about, I'll show them here, and then I'll also pass them around?

[Davis Coonsis] That one's Butterfly Maidens. You know, we have a little story about the Butterfly Maiden and, you know, how they, kind of like one of the gods in Zuni. So that kind of represents that kind of blessing and summertime and abundance.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, and I know we talked a little bit about this one, and this was something that you were really proud of. Can you tell me a little bit just about, like, the process of creating?

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah, that's my latest one. It's a credenza. I made this credenza.

It was actually a custom order for a friend of ours, and she wanted it done. So that took quite a while because I think she took, like, two years because I was doing it off and on. But I finally got it done this past.

[Visitor] About a month ago?

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah, about a month ago.

[Visitor] Oh, wow. That's gorgeous.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Visitor] That's amazing.

[Davis Coonsis] But that's, like, some of them are, like, I'm still learning. Everything's new to me. Like, the coffee table I've been making, I've made several of them already, but that credenza is something new to me.

So I'm just, like, barely learning how to do all this stuff.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, I think that's something I've seen. Like, talking to you and a theme that I've seen is, like, your ability to pick up new things and learn and constantly learning throughout your life. And I feel like that's just so inspiring to me.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah, because I usually don't have, like, somebody to teach me. So I just usually go, like, to YouTube and, you know, watch it right there. Yeah, that's how I learn all my stuff, like the woodwork, the joinery, and other stuff.

That's how I learn it. But it's working out, you know.

[Ranger Lizzie] So we have some examples of kind of different artwork as well. We have this really cute frog. Can you tell us a little bit more about this one, too?

[Davis Coonsis] Oh, yeah, this frog. That was—I started making those frogs when I met Noreen. We started—she started doing—when I started doing pottery when I met her.

So that's one of the things I always wanted to make since I already made stone carvings of frogs. I said, oh, let me try one frog out of clay. So I made one of those.

And this foot made the tongue long because, you know, how they snap flies. It's more like a comical look.

[Ranger Lizzie] We also have some examples of your jewelry.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Can you tell us a little bit about the stones that you see here?

[Davis Coonsis] The stones here are mostly turquoise. I mostly—these hearts was my dad's designs. He used to do inlay jewelry.

So that's kind of like the—this design is from my dad. So I just kind of like continued doing the heart designs. And this one, I mostly like—when I do jewelry, I mostly just like to do stones, like wrap them in silver and stone, you know, because sometimes I just like the stone itself, whereas this is like inlay with other different stones.

It takes a little bit longer for the multicolored jewelry, but sometimes I just like doing the stones themselves. There's one big wood carving project that I was doing in Zuni, New Mexico for ZYEP, the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program, which is kind of still—I'm still kind of working on it. It's not finished yet, but it's probably seven feet tall, a cottonwood tree stump, which they cut to build a ZYEP building, and they asked me to, you know, carve something out of it.

So that's what I've been doing. And what I did was I put in our six-directional animals on it. I carved them into it.

So our six-directional animals in Zuni starts out north with a mountain lion or cougar and then go on to the west. This would be the bear, the black bear. And then the south would be the badger, and then the east would be the white wolf.

And then on the sky at the top would be the eagle, and then the bottom would be the mole. And all the directions have all colors to them, too. So the north would be yellow, the west would be blue, south would be red, east is white, and the top is many colors, all different multicolors, and the bottom is black.

[Ranger Lizzie] Wow.

[Davis Coonsis] So yeah, that's all the colors. So that's what I tried to do in that big carving that I made, the big tree stump carving I made. I tried to put all the animals on there.

But I got some part of it done, but I just need to do some details, but that would be in a further project that I would be able to do. But it's an ongoing project. I just try to be limitless, whatever I do.

Try not to be constricted to one thing. Because art in general, no matter what it is, if you can do it or there's a possibility, then I will try it.

[Ranger Lizzie] Is there anything that you are looking to try or that you want to try in the future?

[Davis Coonsis] Maybe some glass. Glass or something like that. I've seen them how they do it, and it's awesome.

[Ranger Lizzie] Wow.

[Davis Coonsis] Different kinds of glass things. I've seen some people where they make glass into crystals or something, like in a cube, but then the cube has little other cubes inside, like the reflecting something. That's a different thing, but then they blow glass to make little stuff like that.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah.

[Davis Coonsis] I've seen that one, too, is different. I'd like to try one of them, something like that.

[Ranger Lizzie] Wow. Yeah. Well, I think it'll be really cool to see you continue to just try out new things, and everything that you try and everything that we've shown is just so beautiful, so I'm excited to see that continue.

Yeah. Follow your career.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] I know that you just most recently picked up pottery, and we were able to show one of your pots, a picture of your pot. Can you tell me a little bit about what inspired you to pick up pottery? We were talking a little bit about that earlier.

[Davis Coonsis] I guess what inspired me was when I first saw my sister and the pottery she was making. I don't know, I guess the designs on them just kind of gravitated to me somehow, and I started liking it, and then I would go to old books and see the Zuni history and see the old potteries on them, and say, Wow, I like this one. I just started liking it, and I always wanted to take a class.

Like I was saying, in high school, everybody else went to Zuni. They had clay, a pottery class, but where I went, they didn't have a pottery class, so I was like, Oh, man. I missed all the art stuff that they used to do in Zuni.

But then after that, that's how I got into pottery, was just looking at the old pictures and just being inspired by it. Like I said, I didn't do pottery for a long time until I met Noreen, and that's when I learned to start making pottery, and I liked it. I liked what I did, and I still want to try some more stuff, and I make a big old pot.

That's one of my probably, I guess, I want to accomplish is a big pot.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, and I know you and Noreen also make art together.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Can you tell me a little bit more about that collaborative process?

[Davis Coonsis] Well, I seen she had done, I guess, collaborations with some other silversmiths, so when I met her, she had some of those jewelry stuff, and I looked at it and said, I can probably do that. So that's how we just kind of started out, you know, because she already had done it before, and then since I do jewelry, silver work, and that's just how we started. But I like doing it because, you know, it's really different.

Like the pottery designs are all, you know, cool and perfect, you know, it's all cool, and then you got the silver wrapped around, it's all shiny. I like doing that, yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, and definitely, you know, follow along with that journey because I'm excited to see what you make next. Yeah. Everything that you're doing, it's so cool to see so many processes at work at once.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah. Well, my final question for the night is just, what do you want people to take away from our conversation?

[Davis Coonsis] The Grand Canyon is very sacred to all the Native Americans and probably to everybody else, you know, because, you know, it is a special place, it's one of the wonders of the world, you know, and I guess respect it. But just hope everybody enjoys coming to the Grand Canyon. Enjoy your stay and be safe.

[Ranger Lizzie] Awesome. Well, we do have just a few minutes, I think, before sunset.

[Visitor] Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of your paintings are symmetrical.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Visitor] Is symmetry a big part of art?

[Davis Coonsis] For me, it is. I guess I just want to have it always, like you said, symmetrical. So whatever I do, it's always got to be matched in the other way, in a certain way.

It's always got to be symmetrical. So I do measure out my designs, like how I'm going to put them. So that's how I keep it symmetrical.

[Visitor] So for your carving, do you, like on the table specifically, did you hand carve that? Do you have like a router tool?

[Davis Coonsis] Oh, no. So everything is done with just a knife and a chisel. Because if you use a router, you can't get these sharp points.

So I just use a knife and then a chisel. I just cut them out. And then same way with the flower over here, I just use a razor blade and I just cut them off, and then basically that's it.

And then with this part, I just chisel out all the stuff that you don't want.

[Visitor] Incredible.

[Davis Coonsis] Thank you.

[Visitor] Yes? I've noticed that a lot of your artworks have an elk with an arrow pointing to its mouth.

[Davis Coonsis] Oh, this one's a deer. It's a deer. And this is the heart line of it.

It's like the deer always has to have like a heart line or any animal. That's like their breath, their life of it. So that's why we call them the heart line.

So it's like the life of the animal. That's what it means.

[Ranger Lizzie] Oh, yes?

[Visitor] Did you study from other Zuni people or did you study from books?

[Davis Coonsis] I guess, yeah, I would read books on the Zuni people, and then I was beginning to learn more about it, and then everything just made more sense to me. And then the connection here, that's when I kind of got into checking out our other ancestral sites where our people used to live. We lived from here to there, like the Chaco Canyon, Mesa Verde.

Because all our people are connected with those places because that's part of our migrations where our people, from coming out from the Grand Canyon, some of our people went to Mesa Verde, and some of them went down to Chaco, and then they went as far as the Rio Grande River. That's where our people migrated, but along the way, people wanted to stay by the river, so that's how some of the tribes began, because our migrations. Some of them stayed.

They went down a little way, and some of them wanted to stay there because everything was perfect for them. But some people still traveled on. They felt that they didn't have found a middle place.

So we may have went around all the way, like down towards Las Cruces, and then we came all the way back up this way, then all the way towards Zuni, back to Zuni. That's where we're living right now.

[Ranger Lizzie] Well, thank you guys all so much for joining us. Davis, thank you so much for talking to us tonight.

[Davis Coonsis] Thank you. Thank you for coming out.

[Speaker 3] Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 13 Jun 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/CB8DA6F8-DFCB-8362-E29A16FDBECF7B1C.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-CBA11703-BEC9-ABC0-FE85F72D60545C54 Brooke Damon Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Dawn spoke with Brooke Damon, who was an intern with the Institute for Tribal Enviromental Professionals. She shares what it was like working with Grand Canyon and emphasizing the importance of traditional ecological knowledge (TEK) and first voices through her work in environmental science. 1641 no full 14 2

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Brooke Damon Speaks

[Brooke Damon] Which was really cool and really exciting because I really love water. I want to work with water in the future and for my life. Because in the Navajo culture, water is life.

And just living in the Southwest, you know how important water is. And being able to maybe bridge those gaps between indigenous knowledge and then also western science. So, I was really excited for this opportunity to come up and kind of put my place into it.

[Lakin] Hello everyone, welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden] And this is Meranden.

[Lakin] Today's episode will be about Brooke Damon. She is Diné and shares what her experience was like as an intern with the Institute for Tribal Environmental Professionals with Northern Arizona University.

[Meranden] She describes the importance of having first voices and traditional ecological knowledge included in the environmental sciences field.

[Lakin] Throughout this journey, it also allowed her to connect a lot more with her Diné culture. And explains what it felt like to be a voice for indigenous people throughout this report.

[Meranden] Thank you for tuning in and here is Brooke Damon.

[Brooke Damon] ♪♪♪ (Introduces self in Navajo) Hi, my name is Brooke Damon. And I am of the Tangle People clan. I am born for the Clamp Tree people.

My maternal grandpa is of the Water Edge clan. And my paternal grandpa is of the Salt People clan.

[Ranger Dawn] Cool. Why don't you tell us what you're working on currently?

[Brooke Damon] Yeah, so I'm currently an intern through the Institute for Tribal Environmental Professionals through Northern Arizona University. And how that internship works, it's about a two-month internship program. They kind of allow you to pick a host site that you can apply to and then they'll do the rest of it.

Sending your application, resume, all of that good stuff. And I was really excited to see the Grand Canyon opportunity because it's with their Traditional Ecological Knowledge and First Voices program. And the project goal was to integrate indigenous knowledge and traditional ecological knowledge, which is just knowledge that indigenous people hold about their environment because they live in the environment, they see generations have seen the changes in the environment and a lot of their culture revolves around it.

So that's what the goal was to try to integrate that into the hydrology program, which was really cool and really exciting because I really love water. I want to work with water in the future and for my life. Because in the Navajo culture, water is life.

And just living in the Southwest, you know how important water is. And being able to maybe bridge those gaps between indigenous knowledge and then also Western science. So, I was really excited for this opportunity to come up and kind of put my place into it.

[Ranger Dawn] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, we were talking earlier, you're talking about like your background, like the degree you got.

So, like, how did you even get started? Where was the seed planted for this passion?

[Brooke Damon] So, as many people have their COVID stories, I graduated during COVID. I graduated in a car, very funnily decorated car by my mom. So, shout out to her for doing that.

But being that 17-year-old, I had no clue what I wanted to do in life. I wanted to be an engineer. I wanted to do all these crazy things that would maybe make me money.

Because that was like, I guess every teenager's dream is like, I want to make the most money I can. But at the time, I was like, I don't think engineering is for me. Like I like math, I like doing that stuff.

But I don't want problems to be given to me and for me to solve them. So, I was like, what else could I do? And then again, COVID was still going on.

I wasn't sure where I wanted to go to college. Still very undecided, crazy yet to make those decisions being so young. But like, I grew up in Flagstaff for most of my life.

But NAU, my mom, my grandparents graduated from there. So, I was like, maybe NAU might be for me. So, I looked into it.

I saw they had an environmental science program. And I was like, maybe I could do environmental science. I like being outside.

And it was a broad enough degree that you could go into specifics if you wanted to. But it just gives you that nice background if you wanted. But what really solidified that for me was my mother.

Because again, COVID, she is a dental hygienist, but she had to work as a public health nurse to check on patients when they tested positive. Because she worked in Tuba City, one of the bigger cities on the reservation. But a lot of people go to that hospital to get care and treatment.

And one of her patients came from a rural area. So, they didn't have water or electricity. And unfortunately, things didn't go the way it should have gone.

And maybe it would have been different if they had access to the water or to have running water, at least. So, I think that's what really was like, okay, I want to be someone who makes a difference in this kind of changing world we're in now. Because during COVID, the Navajo Nation was sent body bags instead of actual help.

And that was just like, why? Why does that always happen to indigenous people? Why are they always just pushed aside until the problem becomes too much, until it becomes this nationwide, like all eyes on it.

But the help they get is just not really help. It's just kind of just thrown at them to be like, okay, we did something. But it really doesn't do anything.

So that's what I really want to go back to my communities is kind of helping with water resources. Because I think a big problem that may be looming or may even is looming is water quantity and maybe even water quality with mining. Everything that the nation has gone through and kind of suffered. kind of those two different things you're kind of dealing with.

So yeah, that's where I really solidified me going into environmental science and putting myself out there to do these programs. For sure. Yeah.

[Ranger Dawn] You're working on a report right now. Did you want to talk about that a bit?

[Brooke Damon] Yeah. So again, like I said, it's really aimed at bringing in indigenous voices into Western science because, again, history of a part, the traditional voices have been, and people have been excluded from these spaces. And I'm really fortunate to be this kind of person that can be a safe space for other indigenous people to come and maybe share their stories, share their perspective on the natural resources, their importance of the Grand Canyon.

And that's what my report is really focused on, is what the Grand Canyon means to these indigenous people and just really highlighting that voice of theirs, making sure that they're being heard, but also trying to bridge that gap between Western science and indigenous folks. Because as for myself, I grew up in Flagstaff, so I feel quite like kind of out of my culture in a sense because I didn't grow up traditionally. My family is quite religious in the Christianity.

So even my family is not really traditional. So, I didn't have that background. And again, going to school in Flagstaff, you're really Western science.

Getting a degree in environmental science from an institution is Western science. And just having that disconnect is kind of scary at times because that's what I feel right now. It's just like, why am I the person to kind of speak for other indigenous people?

Why is that kind of put on me as a sole person? Because you almost feel like they see you as just this indigenous person. They're like, okay, let's go to her.

She can solve all our problems, but that's not really the case. And that shouldn't be the case because the conversation is much wider than that. It should involve so much more people.

And I think the park is doing an amazing job just taking that first step to kind of have this program, having me come in. And even though I do feel that discomfort, just allowing me to really take stride in the report, having me have the full leadership of it. I finally finished my first draft of it, and I sent it off, and I'm waiting for my comments to get back.

But just having that trust in me to be like, okay, we trust you with this. We know that you're going to do a good job on it has been really like, wow. It really hinders that like, okay, I'm in the right field.

I'm doing the right thing. I shouldn't feel this imposter system that I felt all through my college career because when I walked into class, I was the only indigenous person sometimes, which was scary and intimidating because you would have conversations about resources, and then you would want to ask, what about back home? How are we going to keep moving forward when we're leaving indigenous people behind in some cases?

On the Navajo reservations, I believe the number is still 30% of people don't have running water. And it's like, how do we, I guess, move forward? And making that leap into a sustainable future, but so many people still don't have the basic necessities, and that's something that I kind of think about a lot.

Yeah.

[Ranger Dawn] Yeah, a thousand percent. Yeah, we were talking about that like imposter syndrome of like, yeah, I feel like we had empathy for each other on that. You kind of talked about like bridging the gap between like Western science and indigenous knowledge, but also like older generations and younger generations.

Did you want to talk about that a bit?

[Brooke Damon] Yeah, so again, I grew up in Flagstaff, so a lot of times back home when you talk to leaders, the older generation, one of the biggest criticisms of the younger generation is that we don't know our language, that we don't know our traditional stories, and I guess I am a part of that problem because I can't speak my native tongue, but I can say some things. That's what I'm really trying to hope to do through this report is like reconnect with that and reconnect with my culture because through the report, I focus like a portion of like Navajo creation story, and during that, my partner, they live, their family still live the traditional way of life. They're sheep herders.

They live right on the canyon's edge almost, and I wrote some, I wrote my like little spiel about what the importance of the Grand Canyon is to like Diné people, and I gave it to him to be like, can you check with your grandma about this? Like did I spell this thing right? And like he showed it to them, and they were like, wow, like she got it right.

She spelled these things right, and I was really like, wow, okay, like I spelled these things right. Like I do know some part of my culture, and I think that's something I'm really excited about, like bridging that gap between the older and younger generation. It's just like a lot of times you do feel like the older generation can just get mad at you to be like, you don't know your language, you don't, you're so influenced by everything technology, you get the whole spiel from it, but just knowing that there's like making sure that that knowledge isn't being lost, making sure that that knowledge is stored somewhere, written, in case like older generations are maybe passing on, and just making sure that their stories that they want to tell are being told, and I think that's one way I really want to, one of the goals of the report I have is kind of having a ripple effect on like myself, because I do feel like I'm reconnecting with my culture through the report. Maybe like there's another Native girl or Native boy sitting in a class feeling the exact same things I'm feeling, and maybe if they hear what I'm saying, maybe if they're taking on these like TEK roles, that they do feel that sense of reconnection to their culture, they do feel that sense of self-rediscovery of themselves, and then also making sure that the older generation knows that we are trying, like I try to learn my tongue, my boyfriend, he knows how to talk Navajo, so I'm always asking him questions like, what is, how do you say that in Navajo? And like sometimes when I do say something, I say it a bit funny, and he'll kind of laugh, and I'll be like, I'm never speaking it again, just because you like say it funny, and you're like, oh man. But I think that's been a really cool thing, like stepping into these roles, even though there is that un-comfortability in yourself, you feel kind of, I guess, not in place at times, you do have those like rewarding feelings you get, like his grandma's like really strict Navajo, really, it's probably scary, she scares me.

But to have her to be like, wow, she got this right, she knows how to spell, it was like really rewarding, and really cool, even just to have that. And I'm excited to share that with like other, because the report also focuses on other tribes. So, I'm hoping that they have that same effect like, wow, she got that right, that's what we believe in, like that's what we were taught too.

So I'm really excited for that. And I hope that's something that this report does is bridge that gap.

[Ranger Dawn] Yeah, you talked about like the ripple effect. How do you want this report, like the ripple effect, to be on your community? How do you want it to affect your community and beyond?

[Brooke Damon] Yeah, I think, I guess a lot of times you can think of the ripple really small. You see just the little, I guess, wins I've had through the report. But on a bigger scale, like just knowing that I am a speaker for my community, knowing that I'm, again, trying to do what I'm doing.

It's hard at times, like getting a degree is hard. There's a lot of struggle in that. But also knowing that I am doing good for them, and that I am a voice for them.

I'm a voice for indigenous people. And just building that confidence in myself to be like, okay, I can stand in these spaces as an indigenous woman. And people are going to listen to me.

And they're going to take what I, hopefully they take what I say and resonate with it. So, I hope that's what happens in the community. And yeah, I really do hope it goes beyond just like the park.

And I hope it's something that does be shared with other community members. And they can add to it, even to the report, to look at it and be like, hey, this is what I heard. And kind of almost creating it as a shared space for them, that they can continue to share knowledge.

Maybe like just having those conversations. I'm hoping, I'm hopeful for it.

[Ranger Dawn] Yeah, totally. It's, I mean, water affects all of us. So, I definitely hope that you're, I have confidence that your report will extend beyond Grand Canyon.

You know?

[Brooke Damon] Yeah.

[Ranger Dawn] Yeah. What, you kind of, I guess like what do you want like listeners and our small audience here to like to take away? Like what's the one thing you want them to take away from our chat?

[Brooke Damon] Yeah. I think the biggest thing is like just listening to indigenous voices, allowing that space, allowing them to come into these spaces and share their experiences, share their knowledges and just being respectful to it. Because I think the Grand Canyon does a really good job of that.

Because just recently I was here at Desert View for their 10-year cultural demonstration celebration, which was really exciting to be a part of because I got to talk to different community members about their artwork, learn about what, what they do, why they do it and their excitement about it. And then this Southern Paiute people, they provided a dance, and they shared some of their traditional stories. And that was just so cool to be a part of.

It almost warms your heart in a sense to be like, wow, like we're being brought back. Cause I think one of the conversations I heard between like, like a tribal group programming that one of the tribal members, they didn't like the word, like, “we are still here”. Talking about indigenous people in the park.

They didn't like that phrasing. Like we shouldn't have to say like, we're still here. Like we've always been here, and we'll continue to be here.

And just knowing that and being respectful to it, like the water, they see it as a living being. They see it as it, as it having emotions, feelings, and it can offer happiness. It can offer calmness, but it can also offer like anger.

It can be angry at you. It can be upset. It can be injured.

It can be harmed. And I think that's something maybe we're not looking at in the bigger picture with the park's hydrology team. Like right now they're currently doing a dye trace study of the park.

So they're dumping dye into the sink holes and they're trying to see where the dye is popping up at springs, steeps, just to understand how the aquifer, what's the groundwater recharge is looking like. And so far, it hasn't gone what, like how they expected it to go, which is what science is a lot of times. Because again, you're, you're looking at like this big landscape.

You have the water traveling horizontally, but also vertically. But I guess one thing that we may have not considered is maybe the water's angry at us because tourists are not being respectful to it. We're using so much more water than we need to be doing.

And like traditional practices aren't not as happening as frequently as they maybe want to happen just because of park permitting, all these kinds of bureaucracies and like all these like governmental agencies like come stepping into these traditional homelands and like maybe disturbing it. So, I think that's what traditional and like listening to indigenous people, it just provides you with a different perspective on the environment and maybe like, Hey, maybe we should take that into account. Or maybe that's something we should look at.

Maybe we should look at tourism and the effects that it's having on the river. Cause a lot of the reports talk about like tribal river monitoring reports is because those happen annually. The tribes go down to the river on a river trip for about two weeks a week, just to visit sites that they deem as culturally important and sensitive to them and to monitor it, to make sure that nothing is going wrong with it.

But a lot of times they noted like vandalism, collection piles, like tourists just being disrespectful of it. And it's, it's hard because a lot of the times they don't feel like they have the right or they don't have the power to speak up to be like, maybe we should limit some tourism activity. Maybe we need to teach tourism boat trips about how to be respectful to the water, how to be respectful to these sites we have.

And again, going back to the ripple effect, maybe that's something this report can do is just shining that light on the voices of indigenous people, shining that light on their knowledge and giving them that power back to be like, hey, we took responsibility of protecting and we're stewards of this land. A lot of their creation stories, when they emerged into this world, their creator, they gave them the responsibility to care for the world. And in some cases, their creator told them, if you're not doing it responsibly, we're going to withhold things from you.

We're going to make it harder because that's what your responsibility is to do is to protect. And a lot of times they're not able to do that. But I think that's something I've seen really different because right now at the tribal programs, they have Kelkiyana Yazzie, Vincent Diaz who are tribal members in these kinds of leadership roles that are able to talk to other like the indigenous people and like me as wellbeing this kind of safe space.

Cause I think it's a lot easier for tribal members to talk to someone who looks like you, who had the same experiences as you, rather than like this non-indigenous person stepping into your space, trying to like almost grab and being like, I need that information. I want that information from you. And you kind of, they feel that kind of like, I don't want to give it to you.

Like, why should I? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

[Ranger Dawn] I have another question. What's your, I guess like own idea of like success, like for you, like moving forward and like after this report and like in your career, but also like in your culture and your personal goals and things you're just like, yeah, your idea of success?

[Brooke Damon] When I was in college, I had a lot of stress academic validation. So, I put a lot of my self-worth and self-being into getting good grades, trying to be this person that's top of the class. And that really took a toll on my mental health.

By the time I graduated, I was like so done with it. I was like, I just want to graduate. I, my, I know I'm not in a good mental space.

I'm not in a good head space. And that really took a perfect on my personal wellness and health as well. And, but throughout my undergrad, I had so many amazing experiences where people allowed me to come into these roles.

And even though, again, I feel uncomfortable with it at times kind of being the voice of indigenous people. And because throughout my undergrad, I had another internship with the Institute for Tribal Environmental Professionals, and it was working with an environmental education center in Flagstaff called Willow Bend. And we kind of created a climate curriculum for them that involves TEK and indigenous knowledge into it.

And the first year, of course, when you're trying to build those connections, you're trying to build this sense of what are we going to do? How is this going to look? It's really slow going.

So that first year, it was just a lot of conversation, a lot of talk. So, we didn't really get anything done, but the second year, it was already like hot and rolling. We met with the people at Willow Bend.

We did our programming, we planned it and we basically created a new climate change curriculum for them. And that was really cool to kind of take over what information they already had, but include our own knowledge into it. Because me and the other intern were both Navajo.

So, we focused on the Navajo months because the naming of it really stems down to seasonality and what's happening in the environment. So like January, it means melting of snow. And something that we were trying to stress to the kids is that melting of snow doesn't happen in January anymore in Flagstaff.

It's happening. Our winters are becoming later in the seasons and they're almost becoming more intense in like shorter spurts than it used to be. And just highlighting those like changes that indigenous people have had for so long withstanding these generations, but it's changing so quickly now due to climate change.

And it was really cool because we presented at a local middle school in Flagstaff and there are so a couple of native kids in the class and just hearing their like eyes light up or widen when you talk Navajo to them, when you introduce yourself to them and them being like, doesn't the mountain mean like always with snow and just having that like, wow, bringing it to the younger generation is so cool.

And seeing how eager and so bright minded they are - is one of my successes that I've already experienced. And I think for my greater success is just continuing to do what I do because I know a lot of times I do feel like I'm out of place. I don't belong where I belong or maybe I'm not doing the right thing.

But as I shared throughout tonight, I've had so many like little rewarding tidbits throughout my career so far. And my career has just started since like May since I graduated. It's kind of weird to talk about, but like, I think it's just so cool just being a person that can step in these spaces, growing that confidence in myself and just being like, wow, okay, like I, I am maybe going to be a voice for my community and I can continue to do so by bridging these gaps I see between the younger and the older generation between indigenous knowledge and also Western science and just allowing myself to reconnect with my culture has been really rewarding.

And I think I see that as like my end goal is just continuing to do what I've done and what I've strived for so long now.

[Ranger Dawn] I think you're going to be an awesome voice for your community. I'm so excited to watch you grow. Yeah.

Well thank you so much for chatting with me. Yeah. Thanks, y'all.

[Ranger Jonah] Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and does not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov slash GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache nation, the Kaibab band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 06 Jun 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/CC794989-91E9-1B36-B5BFCE7C9FA59167.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-CCA6C87C-DC1E-D9A4-5BCF259AD1A1C972 Dan Pawlak Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ancestral Lands Conservation Corps interns Lakin and Meranden sat down with Dan Pawlak, a ranger at Grand Canyon National Park and coordinator of the Cultural Demonstration program at the canyon. Dan shares his experience in this role and how he has created bonds and connections with demonstrators from the 11 tribes of the Grand Canyon. He also talks about his journey within the National Park Service, what led him to being a program coordinator and what his vision is for this program and ot 2869 no full 13 2

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Season 2 Episode 13 - Dan Pawlak Speaks Transcript

Daniel Pawlak: One of the biggest things that needs to happen is a desire from the public to say, "hey, is this happening at the National Park Service site? Are you working with tribal communities? What's your relationship like to the people who call this land home?

And what do you do about it?" So, taking this message and applying it to other parks or monuments, historic sites, battlefields even, that's something we need to see from the public in order to get that inspiration.

Ranger Mark: Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Ranger Mark.

Ranger Eliana: And this is Ranger Eliana.

Ranger Mark: In this episode, Ancestral Lands Conservation Corps interns Lakin and Meranden sat down with Dan Pawlak, a ranger here at Grand Canyon National Park and the coordinator of the Cultural Demonstration Program.

Ranger Eliana: Dan talks about his experience at Grand Canyon and what's led him from teething to working with the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon.

Ranger Mark: He also shares his stories and relationships he has built with demonstrators over the years and where he hopes to see this program go in the future.

Ranger Eliana: Take a listen to Dan's journey and enjoy.

Dan Pawlak: Hello, everyone. My name is Dan Pawlak, and I am the Cultural Demonstration Program Manager for Grand Canyon National Park. It is my job to work with the 11 associated tribes to bring them out to the park and provide a place to share their stories, their culture, and their experiences in their own words through this program that is now 11 years old.

Dan Pawlak: I also would like to share that I'm from Minnesota, and I do not have a relation to any of the tribes here that call the canyon home. So, this podcast focuses on the tribes, but I know it's a special one this evening since I run the program, but I'm not a tribal member associated with Grand Canyon, so I want to make that also clear. My history with the National Park Service, I just celebrated 10 years with the agency overall in April, which is really fun, and I have worked from Alaska with the U.S. government over to Kentucky, primarily in caves, and then also here as a seasonal at Grand Canyon in 2016-17 and this job since 2021 that I'm now in.

Meranden: Nice. So, you said 10 years, but how long have you been the Cultural Demonstration Manager for? Dan Pawlak: I have been managing this program specifically since August of 2021, so we're looking almost at four years this August. So we've got three months to go on that, and then it'll be four solid years, basically August 1st when I got hired and moved here back to Grand Canyon.

Lakin: So how did you go from being underground and in the caves to now working with the tribes?

Dan Pawlak: Yeah, so it's interesting. I mean, my background is geology, and I studied paleoclimatology in college, so it's an emphasis looking at past climates. So I got a Bachelor's of Science in geology focusing on past climates, which allowed me to really work in caves with the government, and I started giving cave tours.

Dan Pawlak: At one point in my life, I totaled all my hours and all my time underground, and it was over a year of my life that I totaled up at one time. The amount of hours I'd spent in total darkness, probably a couple days worth, and that was like eight years ago when I did that. So it's even more now since I worked in more caves, but how do you go from underground, like caving, to back up to where vitamin D exists?

Dan Pawlak: So I worked at Oregon Caves for about three seasons, and I needed a change of pace, and so I applied for a job at Grand Canyon to work this cultural demonstration program, or not to work the demonstration program, but to work here in this office, and I worked it for two seasons, and I was introduced to the demonstration program. But then I became permanent at Carlsbad, so I went back underground for almost four years there, and in that time frame, I built a program that is still sponsored by the National Park Service and has been taken over by the National Cave and Karst Research Institute called Cave Week, which is actually coming up here first full week of August. Celebrate your caves all across the United States.

Dan Pawlak: Hashtag Cave Week. So that building a program really set me up for applying for this job here, and I was familiar with this program because I helped to work it as a seasonal employee. I didn't run it, but I helped to get to know all the demonstrators, set up their tables, get to know them, and build this partnership with them as well, and that stuck with me, so much so that I have an emblem that I carry around that I had a demonstrator create in 2017.

Dan Pawlak: And so, this has stuck with me since that time frame, and that program planning, the knowing of the demonstrators from a seasonal perspective helped me build my resume to a point where I was able to apply for this job in 2020 and then get it in 2021. So that was a big moment that I was able to come back to this location and now run a program that I was involved with and got to see my coworkers at the time run. All the right things happen at the right time, and I made the opportunity happen for myself, but I didn't know I was going to run this program.

Meranden: Nice. That's really cool. Starting as a seasonal, seeing it progress and get bigger, and now you're the manager of it. That's really cool. And I'm pretty sure this didn't start with just you, but how did the Cultural Demonstration Program start?

Dan Pawlak: So the Cultural Demonstration Program celebrated 11 years, and that was this weekend. That was Memorial Day weekend this year. We celebrated 11 years of this, and it came from a desire of the Intertribal Working Group.

Dan Pawlak: Now, this is a group of individuals who represent their tribal communities. They are of the 11 associated tribes of Grand Canyon. So that organization is now 12 years old, and it's a group of people that advise the park and tell us what they would like to see happen inside the park, and we are able to make it happen as of National Park.

Dan Pawlak: And that's because in order to make this in 1919 a National Park, we kicked everybody out. We kicked out famously the Havasupai people from Havasupai Gardens, and in 1919 they were forcibly removed from their home. Then later in the 1920s, the last person living there was forcibly removed, like really forcibly removed, and he cried all the way up to the canyon, and he died a year later of a broken heart being removed from his home.

Dan Pawlak: So, this park has had a tenuous history with the people who call it home, and it took about 95 years for us to get to a point where we are listening to the community and hearing what they want and welcoming them home. And that's also not just from the group, but that's also because there are coworkers in this park who have been here for decades and worked on just having conversations with people and building those relationships since the 90s and 80s to get to the point where we formed this intertribal working group that says, hey, we would like to see people come into the park and demonstrate our cultures, in our own words, to the public. And then in 2014, this cultural demonstration program was created, and it started up at the parking lot just behind us basically in front of our office over here. So that was four demonstrators in 2014, and it has grown ever since, and now we have over 200 individuals in just 11 years to get to where we are now.

Lakin: Thank you for sharing that. And throughout those 11 years, can you tell us a bit more about who kind of managed the program and how you got to learn from them and how they served members of the 11 Tribes of the Canyon?

Dan Pawlak: Yeah, so there have been a few iterations of this position at the park. Even in 11 years, I'm like number four in line because as park rangers, we like to move around a lot. In order to go up in our career, move up the ladder a little bit, we have to move across country and take different positions at different parks, and that adds to the mystique of park rangers working everywhere, and we just love to roam and all that type of stuff.

Dan Pawlak: In 2014, I do not remember the individual's name who started that year, and I think there was another person in 2015. The person I do remember is Christy Negley, and she is at Big Bend in Texas now. I got to watch Christy for two years build this program from scratch in a way, which was really cool.

Dan Pawlak: I had no idea what was going on here, the impact that this place was going to have on the Tribal members and myself, but watching Christy navigate waters that she'd never been in before and do it humbly was huge because she didn't have a real direction. She was told to build this program, make it sustainable, and it had been funded in 2015 by Grand Canyon Conservancy, so we're getting the money in order to increase the activity of this program every single year. So I watched her go to the communities on her weekends where she got paid to go down to Flagstaff, go to the Museum of Northern Arizona when she should be having her time off, and she just walked around the booths talking to everybody and building those friendships of people that are already in the program, like Jimmy [Yawakia] and Duran [Gasper], who had been in the program in 2016 from Zuni.

Dan Pawlak: They're at these booths at the Museum of Northern Arizona for the Zuni show, and so Christy goes up to them, builds a relationship, and then they start recommending people at that show for Christy to go to and go up to those booths and recruit new individuals. And so I used that in the playbook after 2020, when we started this whole thing back up after COVID, to go down to these shows and continue that relationship with not only seeing everybody who's been in the program, but continue to build new relationships and try to identify off the list of people, this is a person we want from Yavapai Apache to see if they'll join the program, from Hualapai, from Havasupai, from San Juan Southern Paiute, and making that extra effort to go out to their communities.

Dan Pawlak: Whereas the National Park Service, we are really good about asking people to come to us, but we're not the best about going out onto their lands and into their places and talking to them. So this is an aspect of us trying to go out and continue that outreach and make us visible for everyone to see, and that has been a critical way of building this program.

Dan Pawlak: And then Christy did such a good job that it's all word of mouth now. There's a huge portion that's word of mouth. The whole, I would say, 50% of the demonstration list is word of mouth of people in their communities telling others that this is going so well over here, you should give this a shot too.

Dan Pawlak: And it's just kind of spread like wildfire a little bit in some of these areas. So watching Christy build these relationships, take the time outside of her weekends, when she should be just relaxing, to see that, it was very impactful. But then she also took the time down at the Watchtower, where, I'm going to let you know, this is a collateral duty of mine, so it's not my direct job that I should be doing on paper.

Dan Pawlak: Theoretically, this should be about 10% of my job. It's 90% of my job to run this whole program. So, to watch Christy spend the amount of time she did down at the Watchtower and just talk to people when they're here and acknowledge people as individuals and as humans, that's the biggest part.

Dan Pawlak: And that's what we still try to emulate this very day when we have demonstrators from all backgrounds coming here. So those are lessons that I took from Christy at that time frame and then applied them here. And in the interim, when Christy left, my friend Grace, who's in the village, she ran the program as much as she could during very hard times during COVID.

Dan Pawlak: And she expanded the program to actually have online series and go live like over Facebook. And so there's a whole archive of Behind the Arts. If you want to check that out online, you can see interviews with tribal members and they're displaying what they do from inside their own house via, or they had to go to someone else's house who has a webcam that has actually good internet.

Dan Pawlak: So, the program has persisted through very difficult times and just seeing how adaptive my coworkers have been, that's what I like to do with my job now. And that's the lessons that I've taken into this position.

Meranden: Nice. Yeah, that's a long history I can see. And I can see that there's a lot of connection to this position you have. You did mention that you had caving, and we hear it a lot in the office that you like talking about caving. But I did want to ask, although you have that big love for caving, what made you choose this position?

Dan Pawlak: I chose this position because it was the right time. It was my time to leave Carlsbad. I had plateaued in my position there as a GS-5 and I just needed out.

Dan Pawlak: It was a park that I needed to leave from and start a new chapter somewhere else. And so when this job opened up on USAJOBS, by the way, if you're ever looking to apply for the National Park Service jobs, you're going to go on USAJOBS.gov. You're not going to apply off a billboard or anything like that. You're going to go through a difficult process and try to identify those positions on USAJOBS.gov. I had the searches going. I saw the job pop up. And I saw that Brian, our supervisor now, was still the same supervisor. I kept up over the years with him as well.

Dan Pawlak: And seeing that I was ready for something else was huge. And I thought to myself, you know, I'm familiar with this program. I saw how it was done. I got a lot of influence from it. And I think I can do this. I think I can do this overall.

Dan Pawlak: So, I applied. And one of the big things that kind of nagged me internally to apply is literally a symbol on my ring finger here that I've been carrying around. Duane Tawahongva is a silversmith from Hopi.

Dan Pawlak: And as a seasonal in 2017, I asked him to create a custom piece. And what this is, and I also now have it as a pin above my nameplate here. And what it is, it's an arrowhead based off the tie tack for the National Park Service.

Dan Pawlak: And so, I gave him that tie tack. I'm like, hey, build me this shape out of silver. And then the two pieces that are connecting, or not connecting, but are intertwined in the middle like this is the Hopi symbol for friendship.

Dan Pawlak: So, when I was a seasonal, I saw that the government and the tribes were able to work together even though they had such a tumultuous history. And that inspired me to then make this. And it affected how I then have done my entire career after that in 2017.

Dan Pawlak: So, everything kind of came together and it inspired me to then apply for this job and be the best candidate possible and put my resume together as best as I could and showcase that I was ready for this job. And then I thankfully got it. It was a bit scary, honestly, because during the process of hiring, the HR person in the regional office quit.

Dan Pawlak: So, you apply on USAJOBS, it goes through an algorithm that says like, oh, you're qualified. And then it goes to another person who looks at like, oh, you actually are qualified. That person quit.

Dan Pawlak: So, there was a gap in the whole process for over a month where there wasn't a person processing the resumes on this certification. And so, I was wigging out at Carlsbad, just going nuts of like, when are we going to hear? When are we going to hear?

Dan Pawlak: And I hopefully did not professionally nag my boss too much about trying to get updates about this job. But, yeah, that's what led up to getting this position.

Lakin: Yeah, now we're here with the sunset. And it's cool that like Meranden and I got to meet you and work with you and now you're our supervisor. And you did mention that you've built a friendship with a demonstrator. And we'd like to know more about like the relationships that you've built with other demonstrators throughout the years and just how that has impacted you.

Dan Pawlak: It's impacted me in great ways. I get to go in town now. And actually, Darrence Chimerica, who is here for representing his community Hopi as a kachina carver, he talked to me about my dad today because he met my dad last year.

Dan Pawlak: When my parents visited, I went to the bank with my dad down in Flagstaff, and Darence was behind us in line. And my dad and him talked a little bit, and we just kind of caught up and just had fun while waiting 10 people deep at Wells Fargo. But that shows you that like knowing Darrence and just talking to him and seeing him as a friend, as a human, it made an impact in such a way that he remembers my dad that lives in Minnesota near the Canadian border.

Dan Pawlak: And that was 20 minutes. And that sticks out to him to remember my family. So that's a big moment right there.

Dan Pawlak: Another big moment is that Richard Graymountain from San Juan Southern Paiute paid me a compliment last year, which I still think about quite often, but had to work to get to that point. And I'm going to give you the back story on this, where we had not had a person from San Juan Southern Paiute in the program for nine years. And it's the goal of this program to represent every community as equally as possible.

Dan Pawlak: And so, for that long, we did not have anybody from San Juan Southern Paiute. And so, I started communicating with Richard, who was on the tribal government at the time, like, hey. And he's also an intertribal working group member too.

Dan Pawlak: So, I go to meetings, and I see this guy a lot down in Flagstaff. And I'm like, Richard, would you like to put this out to folks in your community to say, hey, there's this opportunity to come up to Grand Canyon to demonstrate your culture up here? And the way I described it to him wasn't good at all.

Dan Pawlak: And I told him the process of how we get people selected for the calendar up here. And he goes, it seems like there's a bias in the program, and this is not for San Juan Southern Paiute. And I read that over an email, and my heart sunk.

Dan Pawlak: And it sat with me for months. And eventually, I was able to talk to Richard and get him to come out as a demonstrator, and he saw what the program was all about. So, this was his test to see what this program was and to see if it was right for his community.

Dan Pawlak: And after that three-day demonstration, he really enjoyed himself up here, and he saw the people that are in this office that are at the park and that want to make a difference, but we still have a lot to learn. So, it changed how I book people for the program to be as fair as possible, to be as equitable as possible. And that compliment was during an interview just like this of Grand Canyon Speaks a year ago in July.

Dan Pawlak: And it was to commemorate 10 years of the program with Richard Graymountain, Octavius Seowtewa from Zuni, and then also Mae Franklin from Navajo, Diné communities. And they're some of the original people in the Intertribal Working Group that helped to get this off the ground. So, during that, Richard openly acknowledged, and I was standing in the back right there, Richard goes, I had an argument with that man.

Dan Pawlak: And he just points at me, everyone looks, and it's like, yeah, this is all on me right now. And it's like, oh, here we go again, Richard. This is it.

Dan Pawlak: And so, he told me, I had an argument with that man about it being unfair to our community that we're not represented and it's not a good way for us to be represented in this community. But then he said, I now respect him as my brother. And that was huge.

Dan Pawlak: That was absolutely huge. So those are some of the impacts that have stayed with me for a long time with this program. And whenever I get to go to shows outside of the park, or even when people come here, it's always just great to see them and to laugh.

Dan Pawlak: And you get a big hug from everyone. And we're not seen as park rangers first. We're seen as people first. And that's one of the best parts, because we see them as people too, as humans, that need to have their voice shared more so in this world. And we're able to find space to facilitate that for them.

Meranden: Nice. Yeah, and we do see that a lot in the office of like, there's people that you can call, and you make jokes with them right away. Or sometimes we call them and they're like, stand there. So those relationships have gotten super strong, and we can see it just from the sidelines. And like you mentioned, this program has been going on for 11 years now. And we built it to where we have really strong connections with the tribes.

Meranden: And we try to stress and embrace the equity for everybody. I'm curious, is Grand Canyon one of the main ones that are doing this kind of program? And have you collabed with any other agencies over the years?

Dan Pawlak: Grand Canyon is not alone. It's not as common across the park service as we would like to see programs like this. But there are parks that are trying and there are parks that have been successful as well.

Dan Pawlak: There are many iterations across the park service of examples of programs like this, providing space for individuals. Tetons has had a program that's going on almost 40 years of a demonstration program. And they're kind of in the process of revamping that program and really bringing it back to its educational roots.

Dan Pawlak: Glacier National Park has their Native America Speaks program. That has been running for over 40 years. And they invite tribal members from the local community to come out.

Dan Pawlak: Oh my gosh. Probably the majority of the summer to give presentations in the place of a ranger. So, we kind of borrowed Grand Canyon Speaks from Native America Speaks up at Glacier. Ha ha. A little bit of inspiration there. Yosemite is working on building their program.

Dan Pawlak: The Flagstaff Monuments, we've been working with them very closely, sharing our databases, sharing our documents, and giving them ideas on how to build their programs. That's been going on. Yellowstone has been revamping their program.

Dan Pawlak: They have a dedicated building now inside their park that's run by their nonprofit, Yellowstone Forever, in order to operate a culture demonstration program. And it's actually interesting that the nonprofit there runs the program and Yellowstone is just a facilitator of it, basically. Whereas here, National Park Service runs the program, and the nonprofit funds the program.

Dan Pawlak: So, this is a group, an organization, that I've actually started by myself talking to Tetons and Glacier. And we decided that we have enough conversations that it seems other parks want to be in on this. So, we now have a national level meeting a few times a year to discuss how we interpret indigenous history from not only the interpretation side, the education side, of the National Park Service, but also get into tribal consultation as well.

Dan Pawlak: So, everybody from the regional level of the National Park Service, they work on this. The parks themselves work on this. We've had seasonals in these conversations that are directly working with these programs, like how I did when I was here.

Dan Pawlak: And so, this effect is going across the NPS. But we've also talked to Bureau of Land Management to help set up a demonstration program outside of Las Vegas. And so, it's not just limited to Grand Canyon.

Dan Pawlak: And it's because of what we do here that other parks are calling us. I mean, I got an email, I think in my inbox, I got to respond to from another park right now, and they're looking for agreements on how they can properly navigate the legal waters with cultural demonstrators to make sure that everything is fair and equitable and they can be treated appropriately. So, this office has consulted a lot in order to make it happen across the country.

Dan Pawlak: I've talked to people on the East Coast in order to start stuff up there. So, it's a successful program, and it's kind of an honor to be one of the people that is called in the National Park Service and be able to facilitate those conversations for everybody.

Lakin: So that's good to know that the impact of the demonstration program has been vast and also that influence has been borrowed from other programs, from other parks as well. And we'd like to move to the next question. And this question is, where else within the Grand Canyon National Park would you like to see the cultural demonstration occur?

Dan Pawlak: Where would I like to see it occur? We were just kind of talking about this in the office earlier. We've had demonstrations in the village during the wintertime where the population is at more so, and we can get more visibility there.

Dan Pawlak: So that's checked off. North Rim is very kind to host demonstrations up there four times a year this year, once a month in June, July, August, and September. So, we've got another district there that's actually been going.

Dan Pawlak: This is going into our almost third year, I think, up there, which is beautiful. The only other district that we have yet to check off is the bottom of the canyon. We want to go into the canyon, either like Havasupai Gardens or down at Phantom.

Dan Pawlak: And that would be amazing to do that because we have demonstrators who talk about the canyon who have been at the bottom of the canyon as well. Actually, I think there's a gentleman from Hopi, Cory. He's going down on the river right now in the canyon.

Dan Pawlak: He may have passed Desert View today and waved at us when he went by. And if we are able to go down there, I think that would be absolutely amazing because the demonstrations weren't demonstrations 100 years ago. It was life. Dan Pawlak: They weren't demonstrations 200 years ago. It was life of the people living inside the canyon since time immemorial. Hopi came from the canyon. Zuni came from the canyon. And so, to be able to then connect visitors with a tribal member that is demonstrating their culture inside the canyon, like, yeah, just right up here. This is where we came from.

Dan Pawlak: That's an impact that I think would be just amazing. Not only from a park service side, a visitor side, but from a tribal member side because they are so proud to be here and to be the ones to represent their communities. And they get that opportunity to go down when they never thought they might be able to.

Dan Pawlak: That's my ultimate goal. If we can go out to Tuweep for some reason, I will find a reason for it. Way on the western side of the canyon, that would be a really specific reason to go out there. But I would absolutely love to get out to that point too. But into the canyon first.

Meranden: Yeah, that would be really cool. Imagine the supplies that they would have to take down there.

Dan Pawlak: Oh, yeah. We would have to either fly it in, their supplies, or we would have to use the mules to go down. So that's why I'm thinking, like, kachina carvers to go down into the canyon because they can bring cottonwood root that is sized out and they can whittle and also then file down and make kachinas and use the pigments and all sorts of stuff.

Meranden: So, like we mentioned in the beginning, this is kind of the closing of our culture demonstration celebration for the weekend. We had it for yesterday and today, celebrating what we had. So, we had about 12 demonstrators that were set up outside, just outside the tower. Meranden: And we had two presentations. There was one by Ann Marie who talked about her Diné culture. And then we also had Nala Nelson, who was a young girl who sang different songs from also her Diné culture, and they were both from Kayenta.

Meranden: It was a really successful event, and it was really nice for us to, you know, be part of the planning process and see it come alive. But last year, you know, you celebrated 10 years of the culture demonstration program with a celebration similar to this year's. Do you see this kind of event continuing and being annually?

Dan Pawlak: Yes, I definitely do. And I think it's wanted as well. Some of the feedback that we got from these last two days, it's just been incredible.

Dan Pawlak: Karen Abeita paid us many compliments over two days, and she was so happy to see this type of celebration at the canyon. And she's been in the demonstration program since 2016 but hasn't been here since before 2020. So, she had this six-year gap of not knowing what the status of the program is and then to come back and be a part of this celebration, and she was overjoyed.

Dan Pawlak: And so, from a tribal member standpoint, it needs to happen. From a National Park's standpoint, it needs to happen. From the [Grand Canyon] Conservancy side, it needs to happen as well because it's too successful.

Dan Pawlak: And if we don't celebrate the wins, then what are we celebrating? And the win is having a fruitful connection with our cultural demonstrators, with our tribal members. That's the biggest thing right there, and it shows in how we take care of them.

Dan Pawlak: So, I want to see this into the future, and it's also blossomed into other celebrations that happen as well. So, this was the first time last year that we had a big celebration like this. And then in October, my coworker, Kelli, in the back there, she did an Indigenous Peoples' Day celebration, and that was amazing.

Dan Pawlak: The whole weekend was performances and also then demonstrators and PhD presenters coming in from their indigenous communities. And then also Meranden and Lakin in November here took the reins and did more celebrations for Native American Heritage Month. So, this type of stuff, it's not stopping.

Dan Pawlak: We're going to just keep going, and we're going to try and do it better and better every single year and make it more open and have greater perspective on it from greater communities, take the advice of how we should do things and adapt it and try it to see if it really will work for the future. So yeah, I totally see this continuing into the future.

Lakin: Yeah, and it's a good thing that everyone comes out to support these types of events, whether it's the staff or its visitors, getting to know more about the cultures of the canyon and the cultures of the Four Corners region, and that helps understand how to better respect the landscape and also the people themselves. And then you did mention that we did have Indigenous People's Day celebration with Kelli. And it was funny because me and Meranden had a speaks panel discussion, and we sat and talked with those scholars, and we were kind of thrown – not thrown into it, but it was like a huge task to take on, and we handled it pretty well. So it was pretty fun.

Dan Pawlak: You did great, especially for it being your first official Park Service program to do an interview like this with Indigenous scholars. Yeah, that was a big deal. Yeah, you guys crushed it. You did great.

Lakin: Yeah, thank you. Before we get to the closing, I want to shout out Bagel, the cat back there. That's Dan's cat back there.

Lakin: He was taking some sunset photos earlier. I just want to shout him out. And we like to throw in a fun question every now and then. And the fun question for Dan is, what are some of your funniest moments with demonstrators?

Dan Pawlak: Oh, I think one of the top ones that you're going to laugh at, Lakin, is when we had royalty out here last fall. We had Zuni royalty out here, and inside the watchtower, they decided to dance. And they wanted us to join in as National Park Service and dance in the watchtower.

Dan Pawlak: So, the royalty was mostly made up of women, and they're doing a specific movement that is only meant for women. I didn't know that. And so here I am dancing next to royalty, and I'm doing all the female movements when I should be doing the male movements in this dance.

Dan Pawlak: And they tried to get a hold of me to stop me and change it up. Nope, they were just like, let him go. They couldn't get me because I was too involved. And they're just like, let him do his thing. It's all good. So, I think that's one of the top moments, I would say, right there.

Dan Pawlak: And I think just the funny moments, they just happen. And it's just in the conversations that we have. So, I can't remember all those moments, but it's fun to know that they're there in the history. And you can just think about it and laugh, just knowing that good people come here all the time. And you just have those moments to look forward to into the future. But yeah, totally me doing all the female movements in a Zuni dance. Yeah, that's very funny.

Meranden: Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I'm glad that you can have those kinds of memories and just laugh on it randomly and think of it. So, we are ending with this last question that we would like to pose to you. What additions would you like to see in the culture demonstration program? And what else would you like to see in the future?

Dan Pawlak: Some of the additions for the program, not only include getting greater representation from smaller communities, which is a very hard task, because we're also dealing with communities that are not very big at all. We're talking hundreds to maybe a couple thousand individuals, not communities that have 50,000, 100,000. So if we can get folks to come out and find the right people to come out and represent their communities, that's a big thing right there.

Dan Pawlak: And then not have only artists out here. So the demonstration program is built on art. That's the foundation overall. Dan Pawlak: But culture is not just art. It's everything. It's the language. It's the way people act. It's the way people have lived. It's also just communicating with one another.

Dan Pawlak: It's food. It's so much. And over the years, we've had food demonstrations.

Dan Pawlak: We've had people come out and just teach traditional ecological knowledge, TEK. But we need more of it.

Dan Pawlak: And that's also what's happening over... There's a little stone building poking out between the market and the trading post over there. And that is going to become the Intertribal Welcome Center, designed by the tribes for the tribes. So hopefully in like this year, it will be opened up for the public.

Dan Pawlak: You'll be able to go in and get more education on the communities out here. But there's an outdoor demonstration area that's also being worked on, where Zuni bread ovens are being installed by Zuni youth, like trail crew members from them. A traditional garden is going to be installed there.

Dan Pawlak: Hopefully like agave roasting pits will be in there as well. I would love to have pottery firing demonstrations out there. If we could have like working with hides, that would be awesome to have.

Dan Pawlak: I mean, anything you can think of that happens in a community that's appropriate to have here at Grand Canyon, I would love to see that. I would love to see that as part of the demonstration program because culture is not just art. But one of the biggest things that needs to happen is a desire from the public to say, hey, is this happening at the National Park Service site?

Dan Pawlak: Are you working with tribal communities? What's your relationship like to the people who call this land home? And what do you do about it? So, taking this message and applying it to other parks or monuments, historic sites, battlefields even, that's something we need to see from the public in order to get that inspiration. Because if there's not a draw, there's not as much of a push necessarily to do it. And that's the hard part.

Dan Pawlak: But what has come out of that push are other programs like this, Grand Canyon Speaks. This is now, we're recording Season 3 here. And we're releasing Season 2 right now. Dan Pawlak: But it's born of having conversations with demonstrators and learning about their lives and their inspirations and their culture. And then Kelli running the performances, presentations, and also outreach is born from all of this as well. So we're seeing these great things happen here by various people inside the park and positions are being created around it.

Dan Pawlak: But that's because we're seeing a desire from the public to say, hey, we want more of this. Not just the history that has been around for about 100 years. And so, as we go forward into the future, if you want to see more dances, you want to see more presentations, you want to see the Park Service going out into the communities, you want to see more demonstrators coming into these public lands, ask for it. And that's my greatest thing that I want to see in the future.

Lakin: Thank you. And with that being our last question, we like to open questions and feedback from the audience.

Dan Pawlak Oh, here we go, Mark.

Mark: So, speaking of funny interactions with tribal members and members of the tribal communities, I heard there's a trending TikTok right now of Ranger Dan Pawlak getting pranked. Would you like to defend yourself?

Dan Pawlak: I can't defend myself. It happened today. So Princess Maya, who was out here at Zuni Royalty last year, came out with her family this year, Keith Edaakie and Leanne Lee, and Maya did the two ending prayers for yesterday and today.

Dan Pawlak: And she came up to us saying that she wants to do a TikTok with us on her own personal account. So, this is not the National Park Service's TikTok, anything like that. This is her own personal account.

Dan Pawlak: And she got Kelli in on it as well. And she played her role very brilliantly and pranked me here. And so, it's a trend on TikTok where everybody goes through and says something and you then applaud after each person says their thing, right?

Dan Pawlak: So, then that happened five times, everyone got applauds, and I'm the last person in line. So, I then do the trend, and no one applauds. So, I'm left hanging, and I got punked by a nine-year-old.

Dan Pawlak: So, I'm like, what's going on here? No one's applauding. Oh, I get it. So yeah, that is going to exist out there in the world on Maya's TikTok channel. I don't know what it is, but you might see me at some point in the news that Park Ranger gets pranked on trending TikTok. Yeah, so that happened. No defense.

Lakin: Any other questions, Kelli?

Kelli: Dan, working here several years as a cultural demonstrator coordinator, how many purchases of artwork do you have from our tribal artists?

Dan Pawlak: There's a bus rolling through here and I am thrown under it. So, when you work with world class artists and it is your job to bring them out to your job, it's really hard to keep the wallet closed. Okay?

Dan Pawlak: I do have a number of paintings inside my house now. I have a number of prints as well. So, I got originals.

Dan Pawlak: I have prints. I have kachina doll carvings. I got a lot of pottery now.

Dan Pawlak: Fetish carvings as well. And so, my walls are filling up even in my apartment that I have here. So, I think I need to now switch to smaller things that maybe I can wear.

Dan Pawlak: So yeah, I do have a number of items that I have purchased. Some of it has overflowed to my desk so that it does not take up space on the walls in my house. So yeah, when people walk into my office, they know what space mine is and then when people come over to my house for parties and stuff, they kind of are a little jaw-dropped when they look at my walls. Yeah.

Lakin: That's funny because one of the gatherings we had at Dan's house, me and Meranden walked in and we were like, we can re-curate this wall space because we kind of did that for our November, one of our November events. We had a youth gallery down at the building over there and we had to set up artwork and we were like; we could do this with Dan's place.

Dan Pawlak: Yes. I have made a rule for myself as well that I don't purchase art or jewelry from shops. I only purchase it from the people that come to the demonstration program.So every single piece that I have has a story to it or some kind of memory tied to it as well. So, if I go down to Sedona, if I go down to Phoenix, if I go down to Flagstaff or walk through an art store or whatever, I'm going to look. I'm not going to buy because I know I can bring those folks out here and have a memory to share with it.

Dan Pawlak: So, it's kind of, it's fun to have all that tied there and to tie it in with their art gallery too. But yeah, you could curate a small exhibit with what I have.

Meranden: Okay. This is a little surprise for you, Dan. Me and Lakin made this and we just really want to thank you for being our supervisor like we mentioned in the beginning.

Meranden: Yeah, he's kind of been the main one who really took over and helped us out and showed us what to do and be a really good support system. Now he's taken over officially as our supervisor when we started this new role with Ancestral Land. So, Dan's been a really big part of our journey here and we're really thankful for his guidance and everything that he's done for us that we created something for him and it's the Best Supervisor Award. So, we're presenting that to you.

Dan Pawlak: Oh gosh. This means a lot. This is wonderful. Thank you very much. I figured out in my career a while back that I didn't necessarily want to be a supervisor but when our former supervisor Melissa left for a new job and Meranden and Lakin needed some direction in the office because they are so awesome and do such good work and are good people, I saw myself being able to supervise them. So, for you to give me this it means a lot. A whole lot.

Lakin: Thank you all for coming out here and listening to the program and listening to Dan's experience and just appreciating the landscape and our voices as well.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and does not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 02 May 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/26768530-B3DC-7DB1-9A5E1410450A95E5.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-26F6CC46-C8F2-5257-DB2EE30440D1F6AF Leona Begishie Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service Leona Begishie tells about her impactful experiences working at the Grand Canyon School as the Native American Aide, her relationship with her Diné culture, and how the Grand Canyon means “family” to her. Leona supported the Native American students by bringing cultural awareness to the teachers and staff. 1700 no full 12 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Leona Begishie Speaks

Leona Begishie: We don't have any native teachers at our school, so they kind of connect with me. And so, they're a little more open, they're a little more at ease because I look like maybe grandma or their aunt or their mom. And so that part, although all of the academics, math, ELA, all that is important, but it makes them at ease when they see me.

Meranden: Hello everybody, welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. My name is Meranden.

Dan: And I'm Dan.

Meranden: In today's episode, Ranger Lizzie spoke with Leona Begishie, who was the Native American aide at the Grand Canyon School.

Dan: Yeah, she is Diné and greatly supported the Native American students by bringing cultural awareness to the teachers and staff, planning events for Native American Heritage Month, and providing a safe space throughout their time at the school.

Meranden: We hope you enjoy this week's episode, and thank you for tuning in.

Dan: And here's Leona Begishie.

Leona: Yes, my name is Leona Begishie, and my clans are Salt people, and I'm related to the Rock Gap people. And my grandfathers are the Zuni Edgewater, and my paternal grandfathers are the Bitterwater people.

So, in Navajo, I would say, (Introduces self in Diné). That's what makes me a woman. That's the woman that I am, that lets other people know in our nation that, oh, then they might say, recognize kinship, you know, oh, you're my mother, you're my daughter, you're my, you know, grandma.

So that kind of sets up those relationships with other people. Thank you.

Ranger Lizzie: Thanks, Leona.

So tonight, Leona is coming and joining us just from the village. She works at Grand Canyon School, and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about the school and your position there.

Leona: So, the Grand Canyon School is a pre-K-12 school, and our school is the only school that is within national park boundaries.

There is a school in Utah, but they're in a national recreation area. So, this is actually a national park, and so it differentiates a little bit, but we're the only pre-K-12 school in any park, and people are always surprised. You know, I do crosswalk, and they'd say, are these kids school kids, you know, when I'm at the crosswalk? And I'm like, yeah, and they're really surprised by that, that we do have a school here.

My title is Native American Aid. What has happened is the school will get a grant for the Native students that attend the school, and within those regulations, rules of those grants, you have to have a group of a parent group, a Native American group, in order to receive the money. You have to have that group in place, and that group has decided to use the funding, and they can use, they decide how to use that funding, and one of the things that they decided to do was bring in a Native American aid to help the children.

And so that's how that position came to be. And I do assist teachers sometimes, but my job primarily at the school is to look, kind of watch how our Native American kids are doing, and if they need some assistance, extra assistance with anything, English, math, writing, I'll go to their classroom, I'll pull them out, and I'll work with them either one-on-one, or sometimes I pull a whole group and work with them, and I'll just be like, just reinforce some of the things that they're learning in the classroom already. One of the things that I do also is, at the beginning of the year, we hold trainings for all the teachers and the staff.

Usually it has to do with animals, like with our tribe, our nation, we don't, you don't mess with snakes, so a lot of parents say, don't let my child look at a snake, and some are okay with it, some are a little more relaxed, but there are others that say no, absolutely no snakes, or owls, you know, we don't want our kids to look at owls or be around owls. And those are the two animals that are, that parents really emphasize, please be careful with these animals, because the owl is a messenger, so they're more, they want to be more careful with an owl. So, an owl is a messenger of, you know, bad things that could happen, or it could be a messenger of death, so they really, you know, ask the school to really respect that.

And the good thing with our school is they really do. When we get materials, they kind of vet the materials with, like, what kind of pictures are on there, or what videos are on there, you know, they respect that. So that's, and eclipses, you know, we can't be out in an eclipse, so they just take that into consideration, maybe when they're doing the calendar for the school year, that type of thing. So, it's a really good school.

Ranger Lizzie: Awesome. Can you tell me a little bit more about some of the programming that you do around, like, Native American Heritage Month?

Leona: So Native American Heritage Month is in November, and starting in October, what I do is, I usually communicate with the art teacher, and we do different activities.

It could be learning how to bead bracelets, or weaving, or making pottery, dioramas. We do some research on other tribes within the area, or even throughout the United States. And so they learn about different groups of people.

And I have all of the students do it, not just our Native students, and they get really excited about it. This year, we actually had them make moccasins. Some of them actually wore them, which was really cool on Heritage Day.

So that's one component of our Heritage Month. And then in November, we have one week where, it's almost like a spirit week, it's the only way I can describe it, you know, where one day we might have Hairdo Day, where, because the different nations that are here, wear their hair in different styles. So, we'll have these different types of hairdos throughout the whole school for that day.

Moccasin Day, Jewelry Day, and then at the end of the week, we just have a whole, you know, dress-up and regalia day. And on that day, we usually have a program that we put on, you know, where the kids are singing, or they're doing a poem, or they're dancing. I do, we have a Cherokee girl that goes to our school, and she's very interested in her culture.

She's not exposed to it, so she'll ask me to do some research, and she'll say, can we do a dance from my tribe? And so, then I'll have to learn how to do a Cherokee dance, because I'm not, you know, I don't have that information. So, I'll have to look it up and do some research. So, we did like a bear dance, and we did a horse dance last year.

So, we have all these different tribes, and of course, all these people, groups of people speak different languages. And so, what I do is I grab all these kids, and I'll say, okay, what would you like to do this year? And you know, they'll say, oh, we want to dance. So, we learn a dance, and then I teach them, if they want to sing, I teach them a song.

And the songs that we learn are all Navajo songs. And the reason why we learn Navajo songs is because I'm Navajo, or Diné is what we call ourselves. And I'm really forced to say Navajo, because that's what people know, right? Like outside of our group of our people, everywhere, you see Navajo reservation signs, you know, and on maps, it says Navajo reservation.

So, I always say Navajo, just so it's familiar to everyone else. But we call ourselves Diné people. So, I teach these kids from different tribes a Navajo song.

So, what I'm really surprised with is that they pick it up really quickly. And these kids don't speak Navajo. And some of them don't even speak their own language, but they pick it up so fast.

And that was one of the things that was really interesting to me. And I really thought it was really cool. And they pick it up the first time we get together.

And then so then they've got like about a month to learn the songs. So, one of the songs that I thought was cute was, it's a song about a puppy. And I just like, I kind of want to sing that song because it's a children's song, right? So, and it's very short.

And every song that we sing, you sing it, we repeat it four times. Because four is a sacred number for the Diné people. So, but I'm not only going to do two.

And that was one of the things that had come up, which I thought was really neat. I had asked the kids, I said, you know, four is a sacred number for us. So, every song that you sing, you do it, you repeat it four times.

And I said, but due to time constraints, I said, I think we should sing it twice. Only two times. And they were like, no, no, no, don't do that.

No, let's sing it four times because that's how you're supposed to do it. So even though they don't know a lot, some of them don't know a lot about their culture or traditions, they were respecting mine, right? So, they were respecting mine and they were saying, let's do it four times. But I'm just going to sing it twice for you.

Just repeat it twice. So, it goes. (sings Diné song) So that's the song that they learned.

And that's, like I said, surprising to me. It was surprising in a really good way. So that was an interesting something that I learned.

Ranger Lizzie: Thank you for sharing your song. And it's about a puppy?

Leona: It's about a puppy. It talks about how he eats so much that he drags his stomach when he's walking because he's so fat and his ears flop. And then he steps on his tail, you know, because his tail is long. And that's what it and he follows me around all day long. That's the that's the song.

Ranger Lizzie: Oh, that's really cute. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. You know, I think this is like just such a cool position. And I we talked a little bit about this yesterday. Can you just tell us, like in your experience, why is this important?

Leona: The position to me over the years that I've been teach or been there and helping teach these kids and just kind of support them is they see me and a lot of their teachers are from different groups of people. And so, they see me, and we don't have any native teachers at our school. So, they kind of connect with me.

And so, they're a little more open. They're a little more at ease because I look like maybe grandma or their aunt or their mom. And so that part, although all of the academics, math, ELA, all that is important, but it makes them at ease when they see me.

So, when I come into their room and they're willing, they're like, OK, we're going to go, you know, even though we're repeating whatever it is that we had already been taught, they really want to come with me. And a lot of times, you know, a lot of kids might be having a bad day, and they won't tell anyone but me. They'll come because they're at ease with me.

And so that also kind of brings a little bit of support in maybe emotionally, you know, and I grew up just like these some of these kids, actually, and I'll let them know, you know, I know how it is. You know, I know how it is not to have a lot of food. I know how it is to want things and not have the resources to get them right.

And I've been there, and I know how you're feeling. So, I think that connection with them really helps. And I just really love being there.

And they're so loving. You know, they're always willing to give a hug. And another thing, too, is I bring a lot of their cultures, you know, a lot of traditions.

We talk about, you know, what grandma's house might be like, you know, because a lot of them, it's difficult for them to write. We don't say the horse is white. We say it, you know, it's flipped around.

So, we say horse white as opposed to white horse. So, when they're writing, sometimes even though they may not speak their language, which is really interesting to me, but they will do that. They'll flip their words around.

And so, we talk about that, you know, like when you write, you say white horse as opposed to horse white. And so, some of those things they don't understand. And so, I'll say, and that's OK.

But, you know, we need to really read the sentence to make sure that it makes sense when you're writing it, because that's what your teacher's looking for. The Dine language is very descriptive. You know, everything that we have the names for are descriptive.

And that's what the name is, right? That's, you know, a green tree. You know, we don't really say, although there are words now for it. We have a word now for computer or a phone.

And we had to make those up because, of course, we didn't have any of those. But they're just descriptive. And so, when they're writing, they're not they're not understanding.

OK, my house is big. You know, they want the teachers want more than that. So, I always tell them your teachers would like you to put more adjectives in there, more descriptive words.

And so, what I do is I'll pull them, and I'll say, OK, we're all going to close our eyes. And even though these kids live here on the weekends or on the long holidays, they'll go to grandma's house on the reservation. So, they'll say, close your eyes and they'll close their eyes, and they'll say, OK, so let's think about grandma's house.

What do you hear? What do you see? What does it feel like? You know, and they'll describe, oh, grandma's making, you know, breakfast or something. What does it sound like? What does it smell like? And they'll tell me all that. And I say, OK, go out the door.

Let's start walking. I always use the corral. And I always say, OK, go to the corral, start walking towards the corral.

And what do you smell? And that's the big thing. And they always get a laugh out of it because they say, what do you smell first? And they're like, we smell the sheep poop. Right.

That's what they say. And you and you do. And that really is you do as you're walking over there.

The first thing that hits you is the sheep poop, and they laugh about it. But then they go and they, you know, describe the corral and say, see all of that that you're telling me. That is what we want in your sentences.

So, then they go, oh, OK. So, then they'll add more to their sentence. So, I think that really helps them that I come in with that information and have them go, you know this.

Right. So now we just need to angle it where they understand what we want them to do. And I think in this position that I'm in, that's what helps them.

And so, this position is a unique one and that really helps them. And I'm really glad that I worked there actually to help them go, oh, OK, I know what you're talking about now. Right. So, I think that's really cool.

Ranger Lizzie: Yeah, I think that's so incredible. And you form these really close relationships to these students.

I know that you get to work for them from when they're, you know, in kindergarten up until they're in fifth grade, right?

Leona: Kindergarten to fifth grade. Yeah.

Ranger Lizzie: And then you still see them.

Leona: And I still see them in middle school and high school.

Ranger Lizzie: Can you tell me a little bit about how your relationships have grown or how you've seen kids grow as you work with them?

Leona: Well, the last year, the seniors from last year was the first group of kids that I worked with when I started. So, I was I grew up close to here.

And so, when I first started working at the school again, because we were here, then moved a couple of places and came back. So, this first group of kids that I worked with, they were in. Eighth grade, I believe, or seventh grade, and they graduated last year.

And so, I felt so like I kept saying, this is my first group of kids that were here when I started here again. And I was really emotional about it. So, I made stoles for a Native American stoles and I because I so I sewed them stoles and they really appreciated it.

It was really nice to, you know, and it was beautiful. And, of course, but these kids, I do form relationships with them and they're and I'm kind of sad, but they're sad because I'm moving. And so next year in August, when they come back, I'm not going to be there.

But these kids are like one kindergarten kid came up to me this year and said, and he's in summer school and he says, is today your last day? And he was about to cry. And I said, no crying. And he said, and I said, no, no, no.

I said, not till the end of summer school. And he goes, oh, OK, you know, and then ran off. But I formed those relationships that at the younger the younger level, and then they go through fifth grade.

And those relationships just grow. And even when they get to middle school, I have a student in middle school who really respects and he'll call his other teachers, you know, by their last name or just by their first name. But when he sees me, he always says, this is because she, you know, and he's always very respectful.

So those relationships are just so special to me. And even the kids that graduated this year is another group that I worked from here on out would be all the kids that I've worked with. I'm going to miss all of them, of course.

Ranger Lizzie: Yeah, I think that's so special. And it is sad even just to see you leaving at the end of this year, kind of when working with this next generation, you know, what concerns or worries do you have kind of looking up at the next generation?

Leona: Well, the —my concerns and my worries and hope as well. And I know we had talked about that.

And I had when I was in the boarding school, I went to boarding school on the reservation. And when I was in the boarding school, slowly, I went to kindergarten. And when I entered kindergarten, I only spoke Navajo.

And I know that I probably knew some English words like very simple. Yes, no. And satellite.

And that's interesting because my dad knew about satellites. I had no idea what they were. I just knew satellites.

And he would say we'd be outside, and he'd say, look at the stars. And we'd see this one just flying. And he goes, oh, that's a satellite.

So, I knew that I knew satellite. So, when I went into kindergarten, I could not form a sentence in English at all. So, I only know I knew Navajo.

And when I was there, we're learning this new language. And I'm like, oh, and it's so regimented. You know, it's like you've got to learn all this stuff.

And then you go back to your dormitory where you we sleep and, you know, then we eat and then we play and then all over, you know, just same thing next day. As I'm going through the school system, I start becoming really ashamed and really embarrassed that I'm Navajo. And I'm like, oh, I wish I was a born Navajo.

You know, I kept saying, oh, I don't like it because it's so difficult for me. And I would say that. And so, when I see that, I kind of am seeing slowly, slowly, slowly, our traditions and our language and our culture just kind of being peeled away a little bit because we're learning this new thing, this new way to live.

And so, my I see it now and I kind of saw it as I was getting older. So, I see it now with these kids, but they'll say we don't speak the language. We don't, you know, go to ceremonies or we don't do prayers in our language.

So slowly, these kids are like they have no clue. And that's one of my worries is that you see that as they're coming up. They have no clue on their traditions and their cultures and languages.

So that's one of my worries is that we're just going to lose all of it. And so, as I got older, until I became an adult, I was like, wait a minute. This is special.

Another, and I was a little more curious of our traditions and our cultures and our language because of the Navajo Code Talkers. So that was interesting to me, like, really? And it's interesting to read some of the words that they use. And I was like, wait a minute.

This is something to be proud of, right? This is something they had come back to us and said, develop something. And they did. Our Code Talkers did.

They developed; we already had the language. It was not written. So, they had to use the current alphabet to write some of those words down.

So that's how they created the written language because it was always just oral. So that kind of got me back to going, OK, now I know this. It's really special.

And so, I need to tell these kids because a lot of them don't know. So, I tell them, this is special. You know, you're special.

Your language is special.

Ranger Lizzie: Absolutely. I really like the way that you're just cultivating a culture of pride, kind of looking at that future generation.

We talked about some of the concerns, and then you also say they're giving you hope. In what ways do they give you hope?

Leona: I had talked about the hope and these kids, like I had said, they grow up here and they're not really learning their language or part of their cultures, but they are really good. And I'm not in this group, but they are very good artists.

I said, I really like that we have an art program at our school because these kids can draw really well. And what they do is, even though they might not participate in cultural events, they do wear their regalia, and they notice their regalia. You know, like, what am I wearing? What patterns do I have? You know, what are the different, the pottery? You know, what designs are in the pottery? And they notice that.

And so, when they're drawing, then they use some of those things, their outfits, their jewelry. They use some of those shapes and colors in the different art that they produce. And so, my hope is that they go, okay, this is what's specific to me and my people, and they use it in their art.

And I'm hoping, really, really hoping that they go, oh, I want to learn more about that. And I want to learn more about maybe my traditions. Why do we have these different designs on like the wedding baskets? And there's stories behind all that.

So, art has a big thing to do with it, because that's where they seem to connect a little bit.

Ranger Lizzie: Yeah, that's fantastic. And just kind of seeing them through that process. And, you know, we're here at Grand Canyon and you work at the school, and I wanted to talk to you a little bit also about your relationship with this park and this place, you know, bigger than the park as well. So, can you tell me a little bit about, yeah, your relationship with Grand Canyon growing up and now?

Leona: Um, so Grand Canyon is our reservation if you look that way to the east a little bit across the canyon, that's where the Navajo reservation is.

And so, I live about 30 minutes from here. It's where I grew up in Cameron. It's a very, if you blinked, you missed it.

It's very small. And that's where I grew up. So, we are close to the canyon.

And so, every time that we come to the canyon, there was always something that we needed. And it was never about, oh, let's go look at the canyon for its beauty, right? When we already, it's like, yeah, it is beautiful. However, it kind of comes back to Mother Earth, like Mother Earth is what gives us the things that we need.

So, my relationship with the Grand Canyon, when I think about it, when we come here, we came as a family. So that tie is really strong. So, when I think of Grand Canyon, I think home and family, because that's my connection. That's my, that's what we did when we came up here.

Ranger Lizzie: Thank you for sharing.

Leona: You're welcome.

Ranger Lizzie: So, we're kind of coming to the end of our program here. Just as a final question, is there anything that you want our audience tonight to take away from our conversation here?

Leona: Just the awareness of the different types of people. You know, just the, I guess it's, I'm not really sure about, you know, like you guys are from different countries. Like what, what is it that are, that you want to know? Is there anything that you would like to know about this area that you had not known before? And I'm glad that you have these programs so people can say, oh yeah, she was from, you know, the Diné Nation and she's helping her kids, you know, the little kids. And just knowing more about the past, I guess, is what it would be.

Ranger Lizzie: Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you everyone for coming out and listening. Enjoy the sunset.

Leona: Thank you. Thanks.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy.

A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca.

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 18 Apr 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/B3885AB5-F4F0-8D3A-B44EB60553CA4BB5.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-B3B5ECA7-019B-1276-214B0BD05BFD3979 Art Batala Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Lizzy sat down with Art Batala who is a Hopi jeweler with over 50 years of experience. Art describes his journey which started as an apprentice, learning under the guidance of World War II Veterans. He also speaks about his relationship with his father and how that influenced his upbringing and role as a leader in his community. 2571 no full 11 2

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Art Batala Speaks

Art Batala: I think it's very important that everyone knows that we have a strong connection to the Grand Canyon and Grand Canyon is very important to our soul.

Lakin: Hello everyone, welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin

Meranden: and this is Meranden.

Meranden: In this episode, we'd like to introduce you all to Art Batala, who is a Hopi jeweler with over 50 years of experience.

Meranden: He describes his journey as an apprentice serving 10 years in the Marine Corps and attending Western New Mexico University shortly after.

Lakin: Art also explains the cultural significance of designs in Hopi Jewelry as well as the importance of sustaining traditional knowledge.

Meranden: Thank you for checking out this episode and we hope you enjoy.

Art Batala: Thank you very much for being here. As stated earlier, I am Art Batala. I'm from the Hopi tribe, which is just about 100 miles west of here. I was born and raised there and as I told the gentleman here a little earlier, that I'm probably the last generation that speak my language fluently. That's unfortunate, but it is how it is today. I've learned how to create jewelry.

Art Batala: I actually don't like the term silversmith. I like to use a jeweler because it is jewelry that I do. What I said earlier about myself, I've learned how to create jewelry as soon as I graduated from high school, which was in 1973. In 1974, I learned about this apprenticeship program out on the Hopi that was put on by, most of them were World War II veterans. They've learned how to create their style of jewelry soon after the war. I learned that they needed a way of bringing in income to support their families.

Art Batala: This was a way that they found was quite meaningful to them. They started creating jewelry and later on, they came up with the idea of teaching the younger generation on how to make this jewelry. That's where this apprenticeship program came to be. I learned about it soon after I graduated from high school. I took advantage of it. I began creating the jewelry.

Art Batala: Of course, we had to learn the process first. In learning the process, our teachers made us cut different jewelry out of brass because brass is very hard to cut. It got us used to how to handle the jeweler's saw. That was pretty much the idea behind that. Once our cutting was satisfied, they were satisfied with our cutting, then we graduated to copper. Of course, copper is very soft.

Art Batala: We made the jewelry out of copper. This place where the apprenticeship program was, whatever jewelry we made out of brass and copper, they sold it to the public. That's how the program funded itself. Anyway, I've been doing jewelry ever since then. I went into the military soon after. I spent 10 years in the Marine Corps.

Art Batala: During that time, I still did my best to keep doing jewelry. After my time in the Marine Corps ended, I left and decided to go back to school. I entered college, Western New Mexico University in Silver City, New Mexico. I graduated with a bachelor's degree in business administration. I've been doing administrative management since then. During the meantime, I still did my jewelry just to stay on top of it.

Art Batala: They told me that it's like learning how to ride a bike, but sometimes it gets difficult. Don't believe that. Making jewelry is pretty difficult. It requires a lot of patience. In my view, it requires being in tune with who you are. When you see my jewelry, my jewelry, the designs come from nature itself.

Art Batala: We use the cloud symbols a lot and the water waves. Although there's no ocean, as you can see around here, this part of the world, and you ask, why the water wave? Because generally, water waves represent oceans. When it rains out on the reservation, we see trickles of water going down a little stream, and you could see the little water waves. That's where the water waves come from. We just enhance it a little bit more to make the complete circle.

Art Batala: That's where the water waves come from. As far as other design that I do, like I said, it comes from my upbringing, my cultural upbringing, and my traditional upbringing. As we boys, as we grow up, we are initiated into the various societies as we're growing up in Hopi. And so, having gone through that, I've learned all there is, not all there is, but I learned a lot of insight into my religion and what it encompasses. My designs come from that aspect too because of the water waves and the prayer feathers that I do. A lot of my designs have prayer feathers.

Art Batala: That's where my creation of jewelry comes from. A lot of it's traditional, religious, and just basically cultural upbringing. We make mesas on a bracelet. We make the mesas. A lot of it comes from our way of life. That's how we grew up.

Art Batala: Finding out about this Native [American] demonstrations here was back in 2017, I believe it was, when I first came here. I saw the young lady in the back at that time. I met her, a ranger. So, you know, it's been a good experience for me here. I appreciate the National Park Service in acknowledging all the Natives who have connections to the Grand Canyon. So, I really do appreciate that. So, that's me in general and where I came from and where I am today.

Ranger Lizzy: Thank you, Art. That's fantastic, honestly. And I know you're wearing a piece of your jewelry now. Can you describe it for our audience here?

Art Batala: This piece of jewelry represents the corn. I'll pass it around or you can pass it around. Thank you. Anyway, most often times when I do corn, corn is the primary staple of my tribe. We plant corn. You know, we've got the blue, the white corn, the yellow corn, as well as other Natives. You know, they also plant a lot of corn. So, that's where the corn comes from, the symbol. And in here, I've also put these feathers. They represent feathers from an eagle, the eagle's tail feathers. And up here also. And off to the side, you see the black triangular shapes. They represent what you see now, dark clouds. That's what it represents. And I love doing corn because my father was of the corn clan.

Art Batala: In my tribe, we belong to different clans. I'm Coyote. I'm a Coyote clan because my mother was a Coyote clan. But my father was a corn clan. So, I love to do a lot of corn and pay tribute to my father, my late father. So, and the tips here, usually we put tips on bolos as weights. So, it'll hold the cord down. And I completely make everything on here myself. This is all sterling silver.

Art Batala: If you want to take another look at it, it'll be here. So, and also, I want to show another piece of jewelry. Where is my assistant? Maybe perhaps you can show. That is a lot of people refer to it as a cuff. I always refer to it as a bracelet.

Art Batala: So, that bracelet itself, you know, came from my area. This site with the designs, there's a lot of petroglyphs around our area. So, I visit some of these petroglyphs, you know, at various times. And that particular petroglyph is on the walls. And it represents a blanket. It's called the blanket design. So, that's the first time I ever came up with that design. The sides, they represent, also represent the black clouds.

Art Batala: And the lines down, coming down, represents the horizons. So, and the sun in the middle here is raised up a portion from the main bracelet itself, which is pretty hard to do, you know, when you're making this. You know, most of the time, when you're doing something like that, you put too much heat on it and the inside of it starts to, you know, melt. So, yeah, it's a tedious work. But, you know, after years of experience, it's possible, as you can see.

Ranger Lizzy: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. And, you know, you talk a lot about how your culture and your family and your upbringing really has influenced your designs. Can you tell me a little bit about your relationship with your father and how he has been an influence in your life?

Art Batala: My father was a very hard worker, in my opinion. He had a full-time job. He was a heavy equipment operator with the Arizona Department of Transportation. And he worked for 40 some odd years before retiring. And all of it was with ADOT. He said he took over my grandfather's job. At that time, I guess, you don't have to apply and wait for years to get into it. But his father, my grandfather, taught him how to operate. At the time, it was the old cable-operated heavy equipment. So that must have been very difficult. As opposed to now, everything is automatic. But anyway, my father did that year in and year out.

Art Batala: And during the wintertime, although we don't get very much snow, sometimes we do get a lot of snow. And my father was always on the road making sure the public was safe. You know, anybody that ran off into a ditch, you know, he would be helping them in the middle of the night or three o'clock in the morning. And during the times when our religion calls, you know, my father would, after a full night's work, he would come home and go straight to the kiva to do his responsibilities as a man that had gotten initiated into society. So, you know, doing that all those 40 years that he was employed is amazing.

Art Batala: You know, he also planted corn. Like I told you earlier, everyone plants corn. And during the day, he would go down there where he's not working, especially on weekends. That's where he would be all day in the hot sun. But he was a man that was dedicated to family. I had four other siblings, all of them older. I'm the youngest of the family. And we lost a brother some time ago, years ago. So now, unfortunately, I lost my oldest sister not too long ago.

Art Batala: But, you know, my father was a man who looked to ensure that we are eating, you know, we are going to school, we are learning what we can learn to eventually feed ourselves, you know, so to speak. And so, you know, my dad was a man's man in my terms. He worked hard for a living and he made sure we all had a roof over our heads. And also he was true to his religion. So that's my dad. That's why I admire him. And I looked up to him and, of course, missed him when he was gone.

Ranger Lizzy: Yeah, I think, you know, you hear so much when you talk about your father, you hear how he's really committed to his family and his community. And when we were talking, I could see that from you as well. I'd love to hear a little bit more about your commitment to your community and your relationship with your community and the next generation as well.

Art Batala: And I stated earlier that as a man or as a male, we grow up getting initiated into different societies. And these societies, you know, require a lot of personal commitments. And so I've done my part of that in my growing up years. I've gotten into some initiated into some societies that I that I enjoyed doing. But when you get to being my age, you know, you find out that your stamina isn't quite there. And in performing our responsibilities to these societies, you know, you have to be out there, out there in the open and, you know, taking your prayer feathers out to certain locations.

Art Batala: About five years ago, I found that I couldn't do it anymore because of the hot sun. And it drains you completely. And so what happens is when you get into that situation, we mentor our nephews. We mentor our nephews the same way that we were mentored in the kivas. And so when a time comes for when a time comes where you aren't able to perform your responsibilities, then that's when your nephews must step up. And so that's what I've done.

Art Batala: I've picked my eldest nephew to continue what I was doing as an initiated man. But during the course of time, I was like my father. I made sure my children were fed. I made sure my children got an education. I made sure that my mother is well. And, you know, I made sure that I have a crop.

Art Batala: I also planted when I was growing up. And so, you know, like I said earlier, it's a lot of responsibility when you're a man on the Hopi Reservation. And when you're dedicated to your religion, you know, it becomes difficult. And there's a lot of balancing act that we do with the modern world and in keeping our traditions alive. And so, you know, we as Hopi have never really exploited ourselves completely to the public. We have always maintained our isolation.

Art Batala: And I believe that is the reason why our traditions, our customs have survived this long. I can pretty much say that I believe the Hopi tribe is the only tribe in the United States that still maintains and practice our religion as it was taught to us by our forefathers. You know, we still maintain that closeness of the kiva.

Art Batala: And that's where this balancing act becomes difficult. You know, our children have been born into this modern society and it's very demanding. You know, how we cope with that is, you know, you have to make sure that everyone understands each other's responsibility.

Art Batala: And, you know, the women themselves also, you know, get initiated into a lot of societies. And so my sisters in growing up, they also got initiated into these societies, the ladies’ societies. But oftentimes, you know, they need men. They need men for certain things that they can't do. And so we as men have to step up and help them. So that's another responsibility in itself.

Art Batala: So, you know, I like to think that in growing up, being a father, and now being a grandfather, I have stepped into my father's shoes and lived my life the way he had lived. And I'm glad to say that I have, you know, lived the life of my dad and in making sure that my surroundings is well. My children and now my grandchildren, my sisters, my mother. So I felt that I have achieved that goal of mine to be like my father.

Ranger Lizzy: Wow, that's fantastic. You know, we talked a lot about the importance of education and passing down information from one generation to the next. As you're working with this next generation, you know, getting closer to your grandchildren, what gives you, what are your hopes and what are your concerns for the younger generation?

Art Batala: Life on Hopi, as we know it, has changed and things aren't as they were when I was growing up. You know, and so I have to take an honest look at everything and, you know, make sure that my grandchildren get the best of education that can possibly be had. You know, balancing these modern day things that is necessary for young children to become who they really want to be.

Art Batala: You know, I am now, like I said, a grandfather and I am an elected official for my tribe. And as an elected official, I feel it is my responsibility to look at our school system to see that we have the best education possible for our grandchildren as they're growing up. And so I continue to do that, you know, whenever we talk about children.

Art Batala: You know, children need a lot of direction in this complicated world we live in. And so I'd like to be there for them, whomever it may be. It doesn't have to be my grandchildren, because I look at it as from the standpoint that they're somebody's grandchildren. So all grandchildren are precious and important. So that's what I'd like to continue to be is some kind of not necessarily role model, but an important part of a learning process for them. Yeah.

Ranger Lizzy: You know, so you talked about being an elected official, and I know that you serve on the Hopi Tribal council. Can you tell us what does tribal council mean and what is your position?

Art Batala: Tribal councils were set up by the federal government because in giving the Native American tribes an opportunity to govern themselves and to, you know, take advantage of some of these funding availability, whether it's state, county, or the national level. And when you have grant monies coming in from those sources, every time, any time grant monies are to be used on various Native lands, the tribal councils must approve in those grant funds. And so that's primarily our responsibility.

Art Batala: However, we are also faced with a lot of other, I don't really want to say problems, but I guess it's kind of like a challenge, a lot of challenges that we're facing. And, you know, we continue to have our challenges with our neighbors, you know, the Navajo. It has always been like that, a challenge, to be honest.

Art Batala: But I have to say that right now, today, about a month ago, we had come upon a great achievement, a very historic event, where the three tribes who have always been in adverse situations against each other, we have come up with a solution that all the tribes have been faced with since, gosh, since the 50s, the Little Colorado River. We have always been fighting over quantification of our rights to the Little Colorado River. And so about a month ago, the Navajo Nation, Hopi Tribe, and the San Juan Southern Paiute all signed Little Colorado River Water Settlement Agreement. And so right now, that is the highest level that we can get into moving forward to becoming partners. And I thought that that was a good, great achievement. And I feel proud to be on the council that approved that water settlement.

Art Batala: It opens up the doors to a more cordial relationship from here on. And I like that. But there certainly is still a lot more challenges that we face as a tribe. But we are trying to look for ways to make sure that our tribe survives into the future going forward. It's difficult, but not impossible. You know, nothing is impossible. If there's something that is going to better your lives, it's going to be made possible. So those are the challenges and, you know, the great achievements that I have. And I feel honored to be serving on the Tribal Council today.

Ranger Lizzy: That's really incredible. And yeah, hearing about the recent water settlement is just amazing. As you're talking about, you know, looking towards the future and the ways that tribes can survive and Hopi tribe can survive and flourish. How do you see that like in the future? What ways are those?

Art Batala: You know, that's a difficult question to answer. But there are opportunities out there. And, you know, some of those opportunities will have to be addressed. For example, I sit on our Hopi Tribal Gaming Committee, and we have resisted the idea of gaming all these years. We have had two referendums on the Hopi Reservation. Both times, the idea of gaming had been voted down. And it is primarily because of our culture. Our elderly, most of them were elderly that voted against gaming. They feel that it is not our place to go into this kind of revenue generating opportunity.

Art Batala: They feel that it's akin to what they describe as getting blood money, you know, getting income, you know, from those people who have gotten addicted to gaming and will spend their last dollar on gaming. And so those were kind of the reasons why gaming was really frowned upon. But our revenues have really greatly been reduced because of the Peabody mine closure.

Art Batala: Over 75% of our annual income derived from Peabody mining on the Black Mesa. And so when the Peabody mine closed, it took a dramatic, it hit us in a dramatic way. And so we're now struggling. And so upon getting on the Tribal Council, my colleagues asked me if I would chair the gaming committee and perhaps look into the idea of gaming, because it is now what we refer to as our last hope to bring in revenue. You know, and so what we did was we went out into the villages. We have 12 villages on the Hopi Reservation, and they all have their administrations.

Art Batala: And so that's where we went and, you know, got to get feedback from the boards of directors that run their administration and the public to see what their views are on gaming. When we were finished doing those presentations, all 12 villages unanimously is approving gaming, the idea of gaming. So that's when we started going full throttle with gaming.

Art Batala: There's still a lot of work to be done, but we're making progress. And I've been sharing all this with my wife, so she knows all about it, about me as a chairperson of the gaming. But you know, it's a challenge, but I tell people regarding gaming, a lot of different people have asked us, you know, not necessarily Hopi, but non-Hopi, non-Natives, you know, why gaming?

Art Batala: And my answer to them is, you know, at this point in time, we have to survive going into the future. The tribal government has to survive. And although there are many views against gaming, it is truly our last resort. So right now, as we see it, most, if not all of our tribal members are in approval of going gaming. So that's where that lies.

Ranger Lizzy: Yeah, and that kind of brings us back to the beginning of our conversation earlier in this program, when we were talking about how do you balance traditional life with the modern world? You know, because there are all the challenges, the economy and all that. We are just coming kind of towards the end of the program, so I would love to ask just one last question, which is, what would you like our visitors today to take away from this program and our conversation?

Art Batala: To gain knowledge of who we are as Natives and how we are connected to the Grand Canyon. I think it's very important that everyone knows that we have a strong connection to the Grand Canyon. And Grand Canyon is very important to our soul. You know, it's really important. And, you know, I really appreciate the National Park Service for putting on these Native demonstrations, wherein we interact with tourists coming in here from all parts of the world and learning about who we are, learning about our arts and crafts, because our arts and crafts are, tells everybody who we are, where we're coming from as a people. And it's great that we interact with all the people that come here.

Art Batala: A lot of them ask a lot of questions, which is important that they understand us, who we are. So, you know, I do really appreciate, you know, the National Park Service for, you know, doing this for Native Americans. And, you know, it's an opportunity that is open to all the artisans, all the weavers, in every aspect of artwork. And perhaps not just necessarily, you know, being artwork or craftspeople, but coming here and sharing their views about who they are, just to be here as people.

Ranger Lizzy: And Art, can you tell me, can you tell us a little bit about your relationship to Grand Canyon and the Hopi relationship to Grand Canyon?

Art Batala: My relationship with the Grand Canyon is from a traditional aspect of my life. I spent my entire life, you know, practicing my religion. And the Grand Canyon here is foremost, the most important place of worship that we can do, because here, I don't know how far it is.The confluence is like, what, 12 miles up there?

Ranger Lizzy: Yeah, 15 miles.

Art Batala: 15 miles.

Ranger Lizzy: I think.

Art Batala: The confluence, you know, where the Little Colorado River meets up with the Colorado River, that's the confluence. And just about half a mile into the Little Colorado is where we call the place of emergence. And that's probably the only definitive way we can say that, because it is so important.

Art Batala: We will not go into depth about the exact locations. It's just that we emerged from this part of the world, and it's our birthplace. That's why I have this close ties to the Grand Canyon, having been growing up, doing my religion, practicing my religion.

Art Batala: And, you know, I think it's a great spiritual place. And I thank the National Park again for bringing this alive to everybody. So that's what I would like everybody to know, is my spiritual connection as a Hopi.

Ranger Lizzy: Well, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices visit www.NPS.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 04 Apr 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/A3B13262-C83D-94C3-A03819B92AFEAFB5.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-A465D77F-B2B5-8675-7FBF2BA093CD9E46 Don Decker Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Don Decker, an elder of the Yavapai-Apache Nation. shares stories about his Apache culture, and the Indigenous names of different landmarks in the region, and how his tribe is working to keep their language alive. 1479 no full 10 2

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Don Decker Speaks Transcript

[Don Decker] That's how we conquered our language deficiency that we had. A lot of people were losing our language. And we're teaching our kids how to speak their own language today.

We continue that. And that's my job as an elder, as an 80-year-old elder, you know. And so there were many of us that got together and worked on this dictionary. And the dictionary was completed with a cooperative venture with a university in Indiana.

[Meranden] Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. My name is Miranda.

[Lakin] And this is Lakin.

[Meranden] In this episode, Ranger Dan got to speak with Don Decker, who is a member of the Yavapai Apache Nation and is an artist from our cultural demonstration program.

[Lakin] Yes, he also spoke about the origin story for the Apache people, why Yavapai and Apache share a reservation, and explained the importance of keeping indigenous languages alive.

[Meranden] We are very excited for you to hear Don's story. And as always, thank you for tuning in to Grand Canyon Speaks.

[Lakin] Here is Don Decker.

[Ranger Dan] So without further ado, I would like to pass the mic here that's already in his hand to Don. And take it away.

[Don Decker] Oh, that's some Indian bingo. Thank you very much. Under the B, B9. You know, first of all, thank you for the introduction, Dan. I want to thank all the National Park Service people that are hosting me today. I had a wonderful day being inside of that building.

I got here this morning, and when I was coming in from Flagstaff, I came in from the east side of the park, and I was looking for this turnoff, but somehow I missed it. So I ended up over downtown Grand Canyon over there this morning, about 25 miles over there. So I made a turnaround and got here, and I was late about 20 minutes.

That's pretty good, huh? I didn't even speed getting back over here. But anyway, I was inside.

There demonstrating Apache crafts, making tiny little bags that hang around your neck. And so I was beading those things, and special stones on them, too, also, as well. And so I got a chance to meet people from all over the world, and that's one good thing about working in Grand Canyon.

It seemed like I met people from all over the world. It's incredible.

Who's farthest away from Grand Canyon?

Raise your hand if you think you're the farthest away. Norway, yes. French. Netherlands. And you're down there by Germany, yeah. Well, nice having everyone here together.

And we are one people, aren't we? We got the same kind of blood, right? The same eyes, the same everything.

One thing that we do have that's really, really, for sure, it's all the same is the heart, huh? It's incredible, huh? How we are able to have the same heart and then be able to function in this world, that's an incredible piece of machinery inside of our chest that allows us to be here, to be thankful, to look at this wonder of the world, Grand Canyon.

The word grand is something, isn't it? Like Grand Central Station, you know, the grand drawing, the grandma, you know, the grandpa, tops, right? Grand Canyon rates right up there, and this is a special place for the people here.

For the people of this area here, there's tribes that are involved with the upkeep of the Grand Canyon in terms of the signage, the new signage that has come in down toward the bottom of the canyon where there used to be a place called Indian Gardens, and they changed it, the Havasupai people changed it, and they changed it to Havasupai Gardens, and that was just done under the group that I was working with this past year, so I'm really proud to be able to work with the management of the Grand Canyon intertribal group that I've been involved with for about a year. I kind of joined late because the group's been in existence for how many years?

[Ranger Dan] It's been around for now 11 years.

[Don Decker] 11 years, and when I go to these meetings, they're very highly organized meetings, and they have an agenda, and they stick to it, and they know exactly what they're doing, what they're doing with the park, and Michael Lyndon, who was the director for about 3 or 4 years, right?

[Ranger Dan] Yeah, he ran our tribal affairs department at the park for a number of years.

[Don Decker] Yes, and they moved to Washington, D.C. He just got a new position there with the National Park Service, and he's there now, but I want to also thank him for allowing me to participate. I'm going to talk a little bit about Apache, okay? And when we think about Apache, you know, we always think about movies, Hollywood movies, right? And so we see a lot of movies that we've seen as we were growing up, you know. Apache's raiding little wagon trains, you know. Apache's doing this and starting fires and basically causing a lot of havoc, you know, in movies, you know.

But Hollywood got us really, they got us all wrong, you know. And we're peaceful, loving people. And so I'm saying, so I'm trying to correct some of the stereotypes of movies that are made in Hollywood.

They've changed all of that now. I saw the movie Little Big Man back in 1972. I saw it in Fort Wayne, Indiana one night in an old theater when it premiered.

But that was the best movie that I'd ever seen that was made about Native American indigenous people, you know. And so a lot of the corrections being going on right now with the recent movie and TV series that have been coming forth now in production. So I'm glad about that as well too.

The Apache group that I belong to, they're located about two and a half hours south of here on the way to Phoenix. There's a small little town called Camp Verde. And that is the traditional lands of the Apache people and the Yavapai.

The Yavapai people and the Apache people live on the same reservation. But the Yavapai people speak a different language. They have a different culture.

But we share the same reservations. Matter of fact, we have a lot of intermarriage with one another. There's 2,200 of us that live on the reservation.

And we've been there since time immemorial, all the way back to the 14th century, 13th century in the area, as early as the documentation that was made by Spanish explorers that came to the area around 1604. They saw Apaches in the area, and it was noted by a Catholic priest who wrote a book and was recorded. And so that is the basis of history that we look at when we look at the paperwork that's been done to show that the Apaches were in the area around the 16th century.

But the traditional Apache people say that, we've always been here, they say that. The old people, when you talk to them, you know, they say, what are you talking about? What are you talking about, 1600? What are you telling those people up there in Grand Canyon? You know, I could just hear that. But the traditional people will say, we've always been here.

And so the studies have been made. You know, our language goes all the way up to northern Canada, and then some of the people in northern California speak a, not Apache, but Athabascan, it's called Athabascan people, and we are part of the Athabascan people. And so a lot of the history is told about migration, but the migration is really from the point of view of archaeologists and anthropologists. So when the traditional Apaches talk about their own traditions and their migration, they always talk about it coming from here, from this area here. So when the Apaches talk about how did we come into this world, well, we talk about a place near Sedona where there's a place called Boynton Canyon where the Apaches celebrate, each year in February, the forthcoming, the entering of the Apache into the world as we know it today. And that leads me into the next portion of my talk about spirituality of the Apache people.

And the Apache medicine men talk about the time when time began. This was when the universe was completely dark, and they could see a small light, smaller than the head of a match, and it was lit, and that was the supreme being. The Apaches prayed to a supreme being called Usen, U-S-E-N, and he is a creator that made all the world.

And he talks about the light that began when it lit up the whole universe, and the sun is what they're talking about over here. That sun that we have here that we depend on so much, and it's so important to have the sun. And when the universe lit up, the Apache world came into the world.

I'm not going to tell you the whole story because it would take about 4 hours. We'll still be sitting here about 11 o'clock tonight, but I'm skipping ahead real fast forward here. It talks about the beginning of the world, and at the very beginning there were holy spirits. There were mountain spirit dancers that were dancing, and they are special deities that come from the creator source coming into the world and showing the people how to live. And there was a great flood, kind of like a Bible story, you know, but it's similar to it, and it talks about a great flood, the second coming, because there was a lot of corruption going on. And when the Apaches came back into the new world, it was led by the female, and they carried a shell from the ocean filled with water somewhere in San Diego somewhere back, but this was a long time ago.

And it talks about the beginning of the Apache world, and that is how the spiritual teachings are taught among Apache. That's what keeps the communities going based on that information of traditional upbringing and teachings of coming into the world. It's a very sacred story.

I can't tell you all of the story because, first of all, I'm not a medicine man, number one, okay, so I don't pretend to be a medicine man up here. I'm one of the spiritual leaders for our community, and so I wanted to share that with you. So around 1875, down in Canberra, there was an altercation between the Apaches and the U.S. Calvary. There was a lot of warfare going on, and it's hard to believe. Well, there was a civil war here. There was a war in America, too, a long time ago.

So there was a war going on between the Apaches and the Calvary. It was about land, and the Apaches were rounded up in 1875 in February and were marched off to a place in eastern Arizona where they were interned for about 25 years because the expansion of the western United States, the Apaches were in the way. And so the Yavapais were part of that roundup, and they were marched over there in what was basically a prison, but it was really just a camp, a military camp.

And at the turn of the century, 1900, we were released, and we came back to our lands over to Camp Verde. And when we got there, there were ranches everywhere. Somebody had squatted on our lands, and the land was taken.

And this is important to know because it's part of history. That's all it is. I'm not trying to make a point here or a bad point, make you feel bad or anything like that, but it's just history is what I want to share with you.

And to this day, our people survived, you know, and we have 2,200 people living on our reservation. Some people live in Schenectady. Some people live in California, different states, and so forth.

But there's about 1,100 people that live on the reservation in Camp Verde today. We have a casino. The casino is the largest employer of the area.

We employ over 500 people from the community there that have jobs that are employed by the Yavapai Apache Nation. So we contribute economically to the community that way. So I wanted to tell you a little bit about the language, the Apache language.

The Apache language is one of the hardest languages to learn. It's so hard because a lot of people try to pronounce it. It's like learning French.

Oh, French would be a hard language to learn because it's hard to pronounce French words. You know that, right, everybody? Have you tried to pronounce a French word?

It's very hard. You know what I mean? Si vous plaît, vous le savez. You know, whatever, whatever, whatever you say. So Apache is the same way. So I'm going to call one of the audience members here. Do I have a volunteer? Let's have 2 volunteers, okay? Come on up here real quick.

I want to teach you a little bit of Apache. Okay, come on up here. Say, (Speaks Apache)

[Ranger Dan] (Speaks Apache).

[Don Decker] That means, how are you?

I'll say, (speaks Apache). Yeah, it means, okay.

That sounds like French, doesn't it? (Speaks Apache) Yeah, so it's natural for you, right?

So I walk up to you and say, hey, (Speaks Apache)

[Ranger Dan] (Repeats)

[Don Decker] (Speaks Apache) I say, (Speaks Apache) I say, (Speaks Apache)

[Ranger Dan] (Speaks Apache)

[Don Decker] (Speaks Apache)

[Ranger Dan] (Speaks Apache)

[Don Decker] Yeah. Say, (Speaks Apache)

[Ranger Dan] (Speaks Apache)

[Don Decker] Where are you going? He said. (Speaks Apache) Say, (Speaks Apache)

[Ranger Dan] (Speaks Apache)

[Don Decker] (Speaks Apache) I'm going over there. That's what I told him. I said, I'll say, (Speaks Apache)

[Ranger Dan] You got to say that one again, Don.

[Don Decker] (Speaks Apache) Don.

[Ranger Dan] Don.

[Don Decker] That's my name.

[Ranger Dan] Yeah.

[Don Decker] Yeah, okay. So the language can be, the language is a very complicated language.

Apache is a very complicated language. And so we have a language program on our reservation. And I want you to write this down if you can.

It's, if you look on the internet, if you type in D-I-L-Z-H-E apostrophe E Apache Dictionary App, you'll find our dictionary on there. You can type in any word that you want, and the words will come up, and it'll teach you Apache. And that's how we conquered our language deficiency that we had.

A lot of people were losing our language. And we're teaching our kids how to speak their own language today. We continue that. And that's my job as an elder, as an 80-year-old elder, you know. And so there were many of us that got together and worked on this dictionary. And the dictionary was completed with a cooperative venture with a university in Indiana.

So it's called the Dilzhe'e Apache Dictionary App. That's the name of it. D-I-L-Z-H-E apostrophe E Dilzhe'e Apache Dictionary.

You can find it. If you type it in, it'll show up. And it's like an orange-covered book in there.

And you can learn Apache that way too. So everyone should speak their own different second language, you know. Like the foreign people that come here, they speak pretty good English, you know. And that's pretty good to hear a French person come talk English to us. So why don't you learn Apache so that you can talk to me in my own language? Geography is very important, okay.

In our group, a lot of the names that were, all these booths out here have names. They were named after Hualapai people. The Hualapai that live west of us.

And the Havasupai people. The Havasupai people live inside the canyon. Did you know that there's indigenous people living inside the canyon?

Did you know that? There's indigenous people living inside the canyon down the river. About 60 miles, huh? I've been down there. It's really beautiful. They got blue water coming down the cliffs.

Got some nice swimming holes over there. It's really beautiful. And this is part of their land.

And I honor them because I've never lived here, but they lived here inside the canyon. The Hualapai people live up on top of the cliff, like right in this area. If you go straight down here, you'll see them on top, the Hualapai people.

There's a lot of indigenous people that are tied to this area. I talked about this already earlier. So when we talk about geography, geography has a meaning for all of us, right?

When we think about Yosemite Park, when we think about Zion National Park, and we talk about different locations like Niagara Falls, what do we think about Niagara Falls when we think about it? What is that? What is Niagara Falls?

It's water running down, right, cascading down. Well, that's how the Apaches are. When they name mountains, like there's a mountain not too far from where I live.

There's a mountain there called Porcupine Mountain. That's the name of it. That's where our clan lives underneath that mountain. There's a family that used to live there a long time ago. Way, way, way, I'm talking about back in the 1860s, 1870s, the family that lived underneath Porcupine Mountain. That's the name of that mountain because of them.

They named that mountain because of that clan. There's Tsechi, the people from the Red Rock. There's people from Sedona. You ever heard of Sedona? There's a clan that lives there called Tsechi. They used to live there a long time ago, the clan from there. There's another group, the one that I belong to, called Tserutlish, Blue Water. That's Fossil Creek where there's a special water that comes on. It's very, very blue.

It's very pure. You can even drink it as it's coming out of the spring because it's that pure. So all these geographical areas where Apache used to live, they're named after the clans.

So some cities are named after people, aren't they, or families. Another thing that's really important from my perspective because I've always, I grew up with my grandparents. They were very poor people.

I grew up, I'm 80 years old, so I was born in 1944. That was during the war, World War II. So I came to live with my Apache grandparents on the reservation.

One of my mother brought me to the reservation and said, you're going to live with your grandparents. Now I was 2 years old. I don't remember the day that happened, but I lived with them for 14 years. I learned how to speak Apache. I learned to listen to their stories. We lived in a one-room house shack with a kerosene lantern.

We had a wood stove. I was very poor. There was no food to eat sometimes, and it was a struggle.

And that's how life and how tough it was growing up on the reservation. And there wasn't much for me to do except to go to school, which is something that I'm really proud of because I have two college degrees now. I was very lucky to get that. And so I use this education to better my people, to talk to them, and

I'm involved with the culture department with our Yavapai Apache Nation. They called me up and they said, Don, we need a blessing for a new bridge that's coming in, Sedona. Can you go up there? And the head of the Apache culture department, the late Vincent Randall, God bless his soul, he left us about last year, and he is one of the lead speakers at the beginning of a new film.

[Ranger Dan] We Are the Canyon, yeah. So it's a new tribal film inside the park. So every national park, every place you go to has its own film. We have two, one for the overview of the park and now a second for all the tribes that call the canyon home. And Vincent is the first voice that you hear and see in that movie. So I hope you get a chance to go see it because his words are extremely powerful in the opening portion of that film.

[Don Decker] You can see it on YouTube also, right?

[Ranger Dan] Oh yeah, yeah, you can see it on YouTube and you can also see it on the park website.

[Don Decker] What's the name of it?

[Ranger Dan] We Are Grand Canyon.

[Don Decker] We Are Grand Canyon. Would you take a look at that video? It's a beautiful video and it's being shown at the theater over here too. You can schedule yourself and see that. The main thing is to be advocating for the disenfranchised people, you know, and there's a lot of tension going on around the canyon right now. There's a uranium mine that's opening up south of the canyon over here and they're really afraid that some of the uranium water is going to get loose and it's called brachia.

It's a rock formation. They're afraid that some of that refining and digging of uranium using water is going to get in the rock formation and go down to where the Havasupai live down the canyon because that's where the water source is coming from. They're really afraid of that.

So there's a lot of controversy. It's controversial. I promise not to talk anything about controversy, but I wanted to mention that, okay, Daniel?

Because these are the things that are affecting us. We need to advocate for indigenous people, you know, for protection. And it's for all of us too, you know.

We're going through climate change too. So a lot of people say, well, we don't have climate change, you know, but I think it's happening. So we need to be advocating for ourselves really to take care of our own families, our own lives too, and need to bring about a public awareness and look at the issues and find out what the issues are and inform yourself.

You know, a well-informed public, they can advocate and vote the way you should vote, which is to be an advocate for good life, clean life, safe life. These are the things that are important to us, not only for Apaches, but for everyone in the world. It's educating ourselves and looking at the issues and being well-informed.

Those are the things that are important to us. If you ever come to the Yavapai Apache Nation, it's on I-17 between Flagstaff and Phoenix, and you can't miss it because there's a turnoff and there's a sign that says Yavapai Apache Nation. You can take a tour of that area if you're local.

You can also look it up on the Internet, and you can read a little bit about the Yavapai people and the Apache people. We're all one and the same over there. Okay, now, are there any questions that you might have?

[Visitor #1] Yes, go ahead. Sedona, yeah, so we happen to, that was where we stayed for two days before we drove down here, and we did a tour, and we got to know why it was named Sedona. So are they Apache tribe also?

[Don Decker] They're non-Apaches that named the city after a family name, Sedona. But that's where the Apaches lay claim to a lot of the geography, geographical locations that I was talking about, families and different clans that live in the area. Saochi, that's the name of it. There's a place over there called Bell Rock. Have you ever heard of that, Bell Rock? Yeah, we're there.

Yeah, you were there. There's a butte right next to it, Bell Rock. It's called Courthouse Butte.

You saw that, didn't you? Well, Courthouse Butte is an Apache's call. (Speaks Apache)

(Speaks Apache) means eagle sits on top. That's what that means. And some Apaches used to live below that mountain, that little butte there.

That's why they call it (Speaks Apache). So people say, where are you from? Hey, (Speaks Apache), you know.

Hey, I come from Beagle Butte, you know what I mean? That's how the Apache would talk to one another. So remember when I talked about geography, geographical names, that's how Apaches name, that's how that works.

So any other questions? Daniel, you want to cover anything else?

[Ranger Dan] I think we got it here, Don. This has been wonderful. And with the words of Don tonight, I want to thank you, Don, for coming here.

[Don Decker] Thank you, Daniel.

[Ranger Dan] And if you want to meet him in person and see him, he'll be down in the watchtower.

[Ranger Jonah] Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of Tribal members and do not encompass the views of their Tribal Nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated Tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 21 Mar 2025 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/E9F90650-C1BC-F5B6-3DB3BBA08A2BE7FF.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-EA01ED70-F11C-DCE3-0F8B233899A6D10B Marian Manyturquoise Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Dawn got to talk with Marian Manyturquoise who is a Diné employee of Grand Canyon Conservancy at the Desert View Watchtower. She tells stories of her life growing up at the canyon, her childhood at boarding school, and the importance of respecting everything around you. 1728 no full 9 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Marian Speaks Transcript

Marian Manyturquoise: So, I'm going to teach you one word. Are you ready? I'm going to say it in three parts, okay? So, here we go. Ni-zho-ni. Ready? Ni-zho-ni. Beautiful. You beautiful people. That means beautiful.

Meranden: Hello, everyone. Welcome to today's Grand Canyon Speaks episode. My name is Meranden.

Lakin: And this is Lakin.

Meranden: We hope everyone out there has been enjoying season two. It's been a lot of fun being able to hear these stories and put them out there for all of you to listen to.

Lakin: We're happy to share this next episode with Ranger Dawn and Grand Canyon Conservancy employee, Marian Manyturquoise, who grew up at Grand Canyon with her grandparents.

Meranden: Yeah, she shared some knowledge about her Diné culture, her experiences with boarding school, and the importance of respecting the land around you.

Lakin: Once again, we appreciate listeners like you for tuning in, and we are excited for more episodes to come.

Meranden: And here is Marian Manyturquoise.

Marian: Yá’át’ééh means Hello. I didnt get to shake your hands. That means hello, Yá’át’ééh (speaks Navajo) When you meet your relatives or meet new people, mostly from your own tribe or your own relatives, you come to that with (speaks Navajo), I'm sorry, we're over here. So, I would say hello to all my relatives, all the people that have come from far. So, thank you for coming to the Grand Canyon.

This is a beautiful place. This is my favorite spot. This is where my family has lived for generations, hunted.

We gathered all these different, the different trees here, produced different things, and the plants also that we would come and gather at certain times of the year. So, thank you for coming to my area of this country. So, my name is Marian Manyturquoise.

This is the only turquoise I own. And then the other thing we would do is, we're in the clan system. So, what I would say is, who my mother is, is what I am.

And who my father is, who my mother's father is, and who my father's father is. On top of that, then you have at least four other clans that are really closely related to you. So, I'm going to say that whole thing for you.

I will try to explain it afterwards, so you have an understanding of what I said. So, (Introduces self in Navajo) So, I am my name, and then my mother's clan is Yucca Fruit People.

My father's clan is Apache Towering House people. My grandfather, who is usually my Cheii, is the Shadow in the Woods, is the Bear clan. And then my father's father is my nali.

He is the Deerwater clan. So the reason why we have these clan system is so we don't intermarry. So the four extra clans are also the other clans we don't marry.

If that happens anywhere, it is usually called the moths. You know how the moths, they go and they keep going towards the fire when they know, I guess they don't know, I don't know, but that's why they're called the moths. So I just like to bring that up.

That's the clan system. So there's over 200 clan system in the Navajo tribe. So I grew up here in this area with my family.

I was born here in this area. So back in the 60s, most of the kids were born in the Tuba City district, Tuba City PHS, which is about 50 miles east. So that was the main hospital for all the kids that were born in this area.

And as I grew, we grew up in these canyons here. We'd follow our parents here and there. We migrated a lot.

We'd live in Cameron for the summer. And in the fall, we'd come closer to the mountain. In the wintertime, we'd spend here close to the mountain.

So when you come up 64 east of here, as you go up, you can tell the different elevations, right? But on 64, you have the community of Cameron. And then as you come up, you're in the Navajo Nation. You're in the Navajo Nation down there.

In the summertime, like about this time, the weather gets a little bit dry. There's no kind of moisture. So we would go down to Cameron.

There's a natural spring that comes out of the lava beds. So we'd go there, and that's where we'd take our sheep. And then in the fall, we'd come closer this way.

But the only thing is, we have to haul water. But in the fall, we have all the green that has turned to the right color for our livestock. And then in the winter, we'd come straight up.

And we do have winter homes down here just below, maybe I'd say a good five miles in this direction, inside the pinyon trees and cedar trees. In the fall, we'd spend our winters there. And then by that time, we would still haul water, but also collect snow for water.

And then we'd use all the wood that was dead, had matured. That would be our firewood. So that's how me and my family, we migrated back and forth.

My parents, it was hard for them to get employment here on the Navajo Nation. So a lot of the things that my father did and my mother did was they would go from one area down to Phoenix or to Salt Lake to do migrant work. And through that time, they had 12 kids.

So they would migrate and go leave us, and we would be left with our grandparents at times. But growing up here was a special thing because we got to know our canyons and get to hike into our canyons at night. If we lost a sheep, we'd have to go into those canyons and look for our sheep.

The only way we did that was with the bells on the sheep. So a lot of things we did as little kids, like gather snow, help gather pinyons, help gather corn, watermelon at our little garden in Tuba. So there's a lot of things as growing up made us, my brothers and sisters, really strong.

So this is a very special area for me because of my grandparents and generations before. So the Grand Canyon, when I think about it, is because it really brings a lot of thankfulness, I guess you wanna say, because generations before, back in 1886, most of our family members that lived here to get away from the soldiers to be captured, they would go into the canyon and they would hide down there for till 18... Okay, 1886 is when the treaty was signed. So they would, when that, about maybe five or six years before that, then they came back out after the treaty was signed and they came back and they started living here again.

And then the park was made and then we were pushed back that way again. So that's, the specialty is that they found refuge down here so they didn't have to walk so many hundreds of miles to New Mexico. And the beauty of this area is so breathtaking.

Every time I think of my home, I always think, oh, ow, you know, I live in a real special place. So I'm gonna teach you one word. Are you ready? I'm gonna say it in three parts, okay? So here we go.

Ni-zho-ni Ready? Ni-zho-ni. Beautiful.

You beautiful people. That means beautiful. So anytime you see something or I see something, or when I say a prayer, it's always beautiful.

Nizhoni. Then at the end of our prayers, that's another thing. We always say it four times (speaks in Navajo).

Because, and there's four directions and there's four different sacred mountains. So that when we end our prayer, that's how we say it. I think that's why, and my language is really beautiful.

So just a few stories about how we grew up here. We were left alone a lot. So we'd go and we'd hike into these canyons here.

The little Colorado River Gorge. We didn't really, it was part of us, I think. So there's air pockets in those canyon, sheer cliffs, there's air pockets in them.

So our crazy brothers would say, okay, let's go. So we'd go in those air pockets and we'd go on our hands and knees and we'd follow each other all the way to where it ended. And then we'd slowly turn around and we'd go all the way back out again.

I don't know why, but we did. But we didn't feel any, we weren't scared. We were part of that land.

And just like with the moonlight and our grandparents would say, go get the sheep. We knew where to go, even though we weren't there like every single day. We'd go down and listen for the bells and anything that was wild, mountain lion, coyote, anything, didn't really bother us.

Snakes, because you were part of that land. So, and the other thing is, we were never to play in the water, respect the water. So when there was a monsoon, it was coming close to our home, we would stop everything.

We would just sit down, cross-legged or whatever, irreverently, and we'd sit there and wait for the rain to come through. And then we would meditate. We were told to do that.

So we'd just sit there and we'd watch, we'd just listen to the rain until it went through. Then we were told, yeah, now you can go out. So that's how we respect the thunderstorm.

We also respect the eclipse. So all Navajos don't do anything during the eclipse because it's the changing of our mother earth and our skies, our moon, and our sun. So before an eclipse, we would just get ready, get our food ready, drink our water, and just close off all the light in our home.

And we'd just sit still through the whole eclipse and we would pray. And then after the eclipse, we would, you know, bless ourself and then we'd say thank you or our thank you prayer. And then we would sit down and have our meal on the floor.

So a lot of our meals were on the floor. But I would like to express that, how we respect the eclipse, how we respect the moisture, the thunderstorm, and snow. Anything that brought us life is what we respected.

And that's just a few things. And then later on, as I grew up, we were told to go to the boarding school. That was a thing that we had to do because there was no other school.

So the government would come around and pick up all of us, all our little ones. And even though our parents didn't want us to go, we were forced to go. So we'd go to the Tuba City Boarding School.

Tuba City Boarding School, I think is like 200 years old. So our grandparents, our mothers have gone there. It was a sad moment in my life.

It was a scary moment in my life. There's just a couple stories that I remember. When a little kid, you know, you all have homes, you have beautiful homes, probably nice bedrooms.

And here you would go into this long hall. And each of those halls had beds. Like four people would sit and have a bunk bed in this long building.

So what they would do is they would check you out, make sure you're okay. And then the Navajos believe if you have real long hair, you bring moisture. So what they would do to the little girls is they would chop off all their hair because they didn't want to tend to our hair.

So they would chop it all off. It's easy for them to just comb it out. That was one.

The other thing that I mostly hated was we couldn't speak our language, no matter how old we were. We had to speak English. If we didn't speak English, we'd get punished.

And being punished was harsh. Other thing was they would have a fire alarm. Didn't matter what time of the night.

And us little kids didn't know any better. But they always try to tell you, keep your shoes here. Keep your fire blanket right here.

The army blanket. And somewhere along the night, the fire alarm would be the loudest thing, like a big, huge alarm you would hear in your neighborhood. And we'd jump out of bed and some of these little ones, we would forget our shoes.

And sometimes in the wintertime, it didn't matter. You had to get out to the basketball court with no shoes. Or you would step on bullheads, we call it.

Those goat heads, people call it. So we'd get out. Some of us forgot our blankets.

And sometimes during the wintertime, there's ice, there's snow. So we had to get out to that basketball court and stand in line until the doormate came and counted each of us. And then we would go back in.

But it was a harsh lesson to learn because we were just little kids. We were just like six-year-olds, five-year-olds. So I just wanted, that's some of the bad things about the boarding school.

You were there, your parents couldn't come pick you up. You were there like months at a time. And the best thing that ever happened to me was my grandfather.

He would come every two weeks. And he would come and he would be sitting at the dorm waiting for us and flirting with all the doormates. So he was a kind man.

So he was the one that kind of brightened our day or our week when he did bring us back. And then we'd end up down here, down below here. In the wintertime, we'd stay with him down below during vacations.

And I was telling my friend here that during that time, it was a real good time because our grandparents would kind of cherish us. And they would take the extra time, which is just part of their daily life. And that's how a lot of the kids grew up here is we lived in a hogan, a round structure called a hogan, ho-one.

It had that door to the east. We lived in this one room with our grandparents and we slept on the floor, sheepskins. So we'd fix our sheepskins and we'd lay them out every night and we'd sleep on it.

The only person that slept on the bed was my grandma. But other than that, they would say, you have to sleep on your sheepskin right or else if you have it during, you know, your head going this way, it's gonna run off with you at night. So we always had to be really careful and we'd lay it so its butt was towards the door.

So during the wintertime, we'd spend that time with her. She would go out like at least every two hours because it was during the lambing season and the kids were, the kids, the goats, the little ones were being born. She'd go out to the corral and she'd check them every once in a while.

And when one was of the lambs or the sheep were having their babies, she'd bring the sheep in. It's like a manger inside this hogan. So we'd have a couple of sheep here, maybe a goat here with all their little babies right at the door.

And you'd just hear them, but that, you know, we never, it didn't really bother us that much. In the wintertime, she would go out there and she'd milk the goats and she'd bring it in and she'd put it in a coffee can and she'd have it come to boil. And then she'd add a little bit of flour and whatever else you put in there.

And that was our milk pudding. And we'd have it with wild tea. You have a lot of wild tea here.

It has a reddish, rusty color. It's really yummy to drink. So that was my life when I was like maybe six or seven.

So to tend to the sheep, she would take a gunny sack and wrap it around our moccasins or whatever shoes we had. And it'd go all the way to the top here. And we were just little kids, six or seven years old.

And she'd go, go tend the sheep. So when we'd come back after a while, she'd go and dig inside her, all her stuff. And she'd bring out an orange or an apple that has been sitting there for at least since Christmas.

And she'd sit there and she'd peel it. And there's maybe four of us. And we each get so many slices.

Even with soda, she'd get maybe one can. And she'd take her little cups and she'd pour us a soda. So we didn't have very much.

But it was a blessing to be with them. It didn't mean very much to us at the time as long as we ate. So, yeah.

Visitor: Who ran the boarding school?

Marian: The Bureau of Indian Affairs. Government. That is still, the boarding school is still going now.

But now they have the kids where the abuse is gone and all that is gone. And now they have kids that they can go home when they want. They have to go home. They don't stay there anymore.

Ranger Dawn: So kind of going back to your family, I think it's really special that you get to work with your sister. And I was just wondering if you would touch on the impact she made on you and what you've learned from her.

Marian: Yeah. I do work with my sister. She keeps me in line. This is actually the first time I ever worked with one of my family members. And I love it. Actually, my sister is actually the second mom to the family.

Back then when we were small, there was no pampers. There was nothing like that out here. So I remember my mom, she goes, I had to take your diapers down to the rocks when it rained. Like that. When it rained, there was water in the catches of the rocks. The big air pockets in there.

And that's where she'd take, she'd put all her clothes on a donkey and she'd go down into the canyon and find those water catches. And that's where she'd wash her clothes. And my sister would be home taking care of us.

And she would be the main one to cook us all our meals. And she kind of kept us in line. So through that, with my sister and my brothers, when our parents are out gathering, we would pick a place like this and we'd make like a little corral, my parents would.

And they would put a fire in the middle. So at times, my sisters and my older brothers would be the ones to take care of us. Nothing ever took us.

We're still here. There was no Bigfoot, there was no bear, there's no mountain lion, nothing. We were just there, little kids playing in that little corral.

Until this day, my sister, she would be like, how do we survive that? But she was a big help to my family. She would make sure that we're in our cradleboards at certain times of the day. We all grew up in our cradleboards, so we have a cradleboard head.

But I knew my lesson, so when I made cradleboards for my grandkids, I made sure I put a foam in there with the holes in it so my grandkids don't have cradleboard heads. But my sister does play a big, important part. Her name is Caroline.

She's the oldest of six of us girls. And I have four brothers. And we have other brothers and sisters that have passed on.

But they all, my parents, my grandparents, my grandpa, my grandma, they play the role of who I am. Plus, my foster family, people that I've met. I still have a lot of kids.

I have adopted a lot of kids. So they would call me Mama, or I'd be walking down the aisle, and they'd say, Mom! Oh, yes, who was that one? So that all goes back to being brought up by my mom and my sister. Yeah.

Visitor: Sorry to ask, but what kind of time frame are we looking at? I mean, I hear stories from my parents, grandparents. I get stories to tell my kids in the 70s, 80s. Marian: So the time frame, I was born in 1962. Visitor: Oh, so you're a youngster.

Marian: Yeah, I'm young. Thank you.

1962, my mom hitchhiked to the hospital, had me, brought me back. So all her kids, she'd hitchhike from here all the way to Tuba and have her kids. And then she would catch the Simway back to her kids over here.

So those are the kind of things. So in 1962, I was born. And about 65, somewhere, 68, we went to 67 or so, I went to placement program.

But in that teen kindergarten preschool, I was in the boarding school. And then I came back in 1970-something for one year at the boarding school. And the rest of the time, I spent in Southern California, Fallbrook, San Diego area.

And then in the summer, I would come back and spend it with my grandparents, do the things we're supposed to do, herd sheep, just be there to help them out and just be at home. And we had to relearn. We had to relearn our language, because through the whole year, we weren't speaking Navajo.

So that sometimes, my tongue gets twisted. That's what you want to say. When I'm saying a word, I don't finish it.

Or sometimes, my thoughts go off to being something else. So at times, yes. So and then in 1980, I graduated here.

I came back and I graduated at the Tuba City High School. That's a Bureau of Indian Affairs high school. In California, you go outside of your classes and go to the next class.

Here, it is so beautiful. The rugs are all out. And then you just stay inside the building and go to your classes.

I was at awe at that. Any more questions?

Ranger Dawn: I have one last question. I just wanted to know, thank you for sharing all your story with us. But what is one thing you want the audience to take away from our talk today?

Marian: I think even in the 60s and the 70s out here, you would think, wow, I lived this life in the city, in a big city. But back here, on the Navajo Nation, and mostly other nations, everywhere, other native reservations, it's hardship. But I think that, let's put it this way.

When you look at us, what do you see? What do you see when you come to our Navajo Nation? OK, peace, beauty. What do you see when you drive through our Navajo Nation? Wilderness. So my sister there, really quick, it took, what, 20 years? 10 years, 15 years to get your electricity? Because of the red tape of the government, working with the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

So I just want you to go from here, thinking that it is beautiful. We love it. It's a struggle.

Nowadays, for the young adults to actually go from their home to even here at times. I had a struggle. Because I left Page, and I got here, and my boss is sitting right there.

So she goes, OK, I'll hire you. But the only thing that was wrong is, where I actually have a home, I have no electricity. I have no running water.

So they were more than fortunate enough to give me a little apartment to stay in. So when you think about all those young adults wanting to get out, that would be their main problem, is to get out to find something that could make them live and get out of the poverty, out of welfare. So I think I want you to leave from here the reality of the Navajo Nation.

It is beautiful. My tradition's beautiful. I get up every morning, and I say my prayers to the sun, the moon, the air that I breathe.

Thankful every day, Mother Earth that I live on. My changing woman, my white shell woman, and also my corn pollen, my white corn grain. So those are the things that I pray to all of here.

Every morning, it's a thankful prayer. So I guess I think that it is, we are struggling, but we're proud people. Thank you again for listening to me.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music.

This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon.

These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 07 Mar 2025 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/70E17086-0A6C-A1A1-D287AFC187D541F0.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-6CB0BA6B-CEEC-66DA-EF5F853C647D96D1 Daryl Shack Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Dan interviews Daryl Shack Sr., a multifaceted Zuni artist best known for his work as a fetish carver, and painter. With over 40 years of experience, Daryl discusses how his artistry is deeply connected to Zuni culture. Beyond his own creations, he is a dedicated advocate for fellow Zuni artists, playing a key role in initiatives like the Zuni Art Walk and the Zuni ARTZ Co-op. 2399 no full 8 2

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Grand Canyon Speaks - Episode 8 - Daryl Shack Speaks

Daryl Shack: The epiphany came right back because on the table there was coral, turquoise, and pen shell, which is black, and mother of pearl, which is white or real shiny stuff, and so I wrapped it together and, you know, made my bundles, which now today at the Santa Fe shops, they call it the "Shack stack." So that's what I want for everybody through the co-op.

Lakin: Welcome everyone to this week's episode of Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

Meranden: And this is Meranden.

Lakin: In today's episode, Ranger Dan spoke with Daryl Shack, who is a Zuni fetish carver and multifaceted artist.

Meranden: He explains the traditional role that the fetishes play in Zuni culture and the history behind the creation of this sacred art form.

Lakin: Not only is Daryl an artist, but he's also a patron of artists from his community and provides support through efforts such as the Zuni Art Walk.

Meranden: Take a listen to Daryl's story and we hope you enjoy.

Daryl Shack: Keshi ko' don sunhapk'yanapkya. Ho' Daryl Shack le'shinna. Ho' Shiwinna kwin iya do'na ho' da: ko:wi a:wa'shuwakyan iya. Ho' Dowa:kwe deyan Ho' Bitchi:kwe a:wan cha'le. Ho' apde k'yan asdemłan dopbinde yałdo debikwaik'ya kesi. Ho' kets'anna do'na lak'yan a:wunakyan inan do'na Ho' a:wa'shuwakyan iya. Daryl Shack: Hello everybody. My name is Daryl Shack. I'm from the Pueblo of Zuni in New Mexico, and I am a fetish carver. I'm an artist, and I wanted to share that I'm in my clans, which is only very appropriate to share. I'm Corn clan, and I'm born for the Raven clan, so I always like to joke and say I'm liable to maybe eat myself one of these days.

Daryl Shack: I keep things light. You know, life is very interesting for me as a Zuni man, and to have ties here at the Grand Canyon, it's been very interesting to be able to be invited here. And as an artist, it's very opportune, you know, to be able to do that. I'm sharing my work at the tower this year, and I've been here at the visitor center and at North Rim, so I'm very appreciative of the National Park Service for extending and providing this opportunity for communities to come and, you know, bridge ties and bring a better understanding of what we as Native American nations have going on here at the National Park Service and at the Grand Canyon especially.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Excellent, Daryl. And you mentioned that you're here as a demonstrator and showing your work down here, and I'd love to get a little bit more information about your history as an artist. Daryl Shack: Oh, okay. I think that's a little bit of, I don't know how I could go nonstop as far as history, but we were setting up Art Walk in Zuni, New Mexico in 2016, and we were all trying to figure out leadership, and we were talking about how many years of artistry we have in our background, and so we kind of went around the table. Some said 11 years, 12. Everybody's proud of, you know, their amount of years that they do artistry back home.

Daryl Shack: Some people said 20 years, which is awesome. I had to think about it as it was getting to me. And, you know, when it got to me, I was 44 at the time, so I told them 42 years of artistry, and I wasn't lying.

Daryl Shack: They all freaked out, but I wasn't lying because dancing is a very big part of our history and culture and our artistry now. We have dance troupes that go around and share social dancing, so at a very young age, that's what my dad exposed me to, so I was able to go and travel around and participate, and so I have pictures of myself in full-dress regalia, and so I was already performing back then, so performing artist I was born to.

Daryl Shack: So that went on, and of course, school — once won a contest for a poster for the state of New Mexico, and it was for nighttime safety. I said, "wear white at night for safety," and so my poster won second place, and I won a check for like $80, and so that was pushing to really exposing myself to finding out that art is around, and finally high school, it was all about the art shows and everybody showing how good you can be, and then the real world hits you after high school when you find out whether you're going to decide if you're going to do art or not, but normally, you know, you need a job, and you focus on having that education behind you, and so I'm glad that my parents were able to push that on me, and so that continued, and finally, I worked as a public transportation driver for a bit into the senior program in Zuni, and I brought a lot of art with me there, because, you know, the elders were looking to crochet, looking to, you know, bead work was a big thing there, so it was kind of limited, but when I got there, this vast expanse of, "oh, what can I do, I can do marbling techniques with them, I can do—" you know, my mind went a little haywire there to just try to be, you know, accepted into what our elders might not or would be into, so I got very good at that, and so at this point, I can say that I worked as an activity director for 13 years, and I made people do things that they normally didn't do, but they did it anyway, and they liked it, you know, so that's something that I really bank on, and I'm thankful for that, because administratively it taught me a bit of what I'm able to do today, which is my art, which is fetishes.

Daryl Shack: So back then, at some point, there was a time where I needed to participate culturally at a bigger level, and so it meant that I needed to host the men of my kiva. There's six kivas in our community, and those are like men's fraternities, and, ah, man, it's really difficult to explain this complex situation that I'd gotten into at that younger age, but I had to be initiated into that kachina cult, if you know a little bit about that, but just moving further on, it made me think a little bit more about how these ties were, you know, fueling the need for protecting art, and finding out where I belong, and so fetishes were born right about then, when I needed to supplement my income, and today, just very recently, I was asked, “Do you sit down to think about your art, and is it with intentions that what you're going to make is going to be sold, or going to go somewhere? And I'm like, “by now, yes, because it's art,” but I'm so glad that it's cultural tied, and with that, you know, it's helping me to preserve through talks like this, and just through mimicking what I've seen through my friends who've been dabbling in this fetish work, so fetishes are animals, and they're in rock form, and so that's what I get to do, and carve, and I was sharing that earlier, and I also paint, and what else do I do?

Daryl Shack: I draw, I'm a sketch artist, I can pretty much sketch this in maybe two minutes, real quick, and you know, have fun with it, that's the life I have, I'm appreciative of it, because back home, I am in certain leadership positions, and it's more or less bloodline, and in a sense, there's also positions that, you know, I can't leave home, really, to go live in Boston, where I kind of think about a lot, or San Francisco, I just can't, you know, because my ties are at home, and at home, art is everywhere, you know, people don't realize back home how art is very important, and in these younger generations, we think that art has to be put on a mural, or has to be drawn, or has to, you know, but they don't realize that the pure forms of the silver work that we do, from raw material to the beautifully finished products that I wanted to bring, you know, these are works made by my parents, and worn by my grandma, my dad, and worn by my wife, you know, so, here's my wife, Nina, and so, these are very important things in my life that I try to help protect, now, so, just getting back to what I did before, as the Activist Director, I planned, and I coordinated, and so that helps me today, I help to advocate back home about artistry, and protecting, you know, the genuine, authentic Native American arts name, trademarking people's, and branding people's name, that's what we're helping to do, I'm helping to do that for myself, my wife, different artists in the community who need the help, who want the help, I'm a founding member of what we call Art Walking Zuni, and I'm a founding member of the only Native American jewelry co-op in the U.S., so, we're very proud of that, and I think, well, art has taken me a long way, and look where it got me, right in front of you guys, to come chit-chat a little bit about what art is to us in Zuni, art is life.

Ranger Dan: And actually, one of those things, like, what art is, and you brought it up today, and it's a quote that I actually really enjoy, when we were talking, you said, art is still medicine, and art is, it's deep within Zuni culture, and, like, you're making fetishes today, and it's on an artistic basis, but, it's still medicine, and you talked about that, and also, for those that don't know, like, some of the artifacts we find here in the canyon are fetishes, so, this is something that's deeply rooted inside Zuni culture, and back then, it was medicine given to a person who needed to be saved, and so it's still, to that point today, where that medicine still exists. Can you elaborate upon that medicine existing to this day?

Daryl Shack: Oh, exactly, I think, in light of things, I'm going to put in your minds, you know, our ancestors, you know, what did they have? You know, think back, like, way back, way back in primal days, we all have ancestors that didn't have CAT scans, or MRIs, but, you know, when people were sick, what did they have, this intuition to make them feel better, and to cure them.

Daryl Shack: My people went a little further, and, you know, they asked the animal kingdom for that assistance, their know-how, their characteristics, or just asking for the unknown, you know, for help, and they found that the animals were able to do that, and it takes us back further, even, if I can, to times of creation, when we think about when man and animal were here together, and animal ate man easily, and so they were great beasts, and for assistance, our people asked our creator for, you know, help to come and give these animals, you know, at least some guidance so that they won't eat them, and the creator sent two warrior gods to talk to them, and when they did, the animal kingdom, quite honestly, didn't listen the first time, and so they kept eating man, and so man again asked for help, the warrior gods went back with intentions to at least maybe get some answers, deeply rooted in the traditions, and so those traditions are the lightning bolts of coral and turquoise, so they brought them down and said, hey guys, if you don't listen, yeah, and then, so they went back and still animal ate man, and so they went back down and said, okay, you guys don't listen, here we go, and so they speared their heart up, and it was meant to tame the animal spirit, it was meant to kill them, but to tame them and to let them know that really who's in charge is our creator, and who is asking for this assistance to take care of man, and so from there, the animal kingdom had this respect, because they were told by these warriors that, you know, when man calls upon your hand and your intuitions to help, and they're going to make effigies of you, and that way you won't eat them, but you are that beast, you are that animal, and when they call upon you through prayer and invocation, that you will be there to help them, and so this medicine wasn't just, you know, something to play around with back then, powerful medicine that's meant for our healing fraternities, at some point, you know, it just blossomed into a good thing for everybody that does work with these animals as art, and for me, it's still medicine, that's what I said, because it helps to cure me, helps to cure those that might be alien, might, you know, come to my table or view my page on Facebook and find that it makes them smile.

Daryl Shack: I have vast collectors that feel so much energy from my work, you know, I sit down with a good heart, that's the only thing that I think about, and these are words from our elders to tell us that, you know, have a good heart before you touch Mother Earth, before you work with Mother Earth, and even though it's a rock, it's still Mother Earth, and so a lot of these notions to preserve these, you know, cultural aspects of, you know, really working and focusing this energy that's unbeknownst to us, really, and it may go into my work, and so I do have to feel a good heart, and sometimes when it's not, they break, you know, or sometimes it just takes forever to finish something, and so I take a break, for real, and go focusing on something else, so, energy in the art for Native Americans throughout, I think it can pertain to that same, you know, perspective.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, the energy is with all of us, it's not just the cultures of the Southwest, the people who call the canyon home, it's with everyone who visits, it's with everyone who comes to the canyon, it's with, who visits Zuni, who visits the cultures around here, and it's like what you're talking about, like those good memories and everything.

Daryl Shack: Yeah, I mean, today, like, I spoke with a young lady who had come in and had asked for a turtle, and I didn't have any turtles on my table, but heck, I told her, "I'm honest, I'm fast at carving animals," and then so I said, "come back later, I'll have one for you," so, you know, we had a short conversation about how she's having her daughter move somewhere, and so I told her, we had a Zuni boy that moved to Albuquerque also, and I gave him a turtle as well, and she didn't even, well, she didn't know that part, but when I told her that part, it made everything so special, and at one point, we were both crying, and I think, you know, the connections, the energy's different for everybody, and when you see my animals, you'll feel that, because some make you happy, some is like, oh, some is like, oh, you know, and then when you hear the price, you'll be like, oh, yeah, but then you know what? It's not about price, because I always say this, I'll share with you one story I learned at the Indian market in Santa Fe, which is a huge show, you know, you can expect to pay, some people pay thousands of dollars for pieces over there, right? We've seen a kachina doll go for $13,000 next to our table like that, and we were like, "oh, they're already going home and we're still here."

Daryl Shack: So, but anyways, this young man came up, I had a beautiful sodalite, which is blue, mountain lion sitting up there on my table, and so he comes up, and he looked at it, and looked at his mom, and he looked at it, and it took off. Later on, he comes back, looked at it again, this time picked it up, put it back, and he's there contemplating, looking at his mom, and he looks at me, and looks at his mom again, and you know what? So I told him, "young man, listen, look at what I have to say to you, you know, it's not about the value of money, it's about the value of having things here, you know, when you get this mountain lion, and it goes home with you, you're going to have it for as long as you live, and as long as you don't give it away, it'll be yours, but this money that I'm going to get, I'm going to go spend it, I'm going to pay for my hotel room, maybe, and I'm going to go do this, do this, eat, and there it goes, it's gone."

Daryl Shack: So, you know, that taught him. It's like, took out his money, and bought that piece, and he went home happy, I went home happy for that moment, but then it was time to get back to work. That's my work, you know, that's what I do as an artist, as what I'm here to do, to share, and I'm glad it did, you know, look where it brought me, again, you know, to be able to share this little bit of time with you, and I'm just glad that, you know, the day is so beautiful, who can't enjoy this?

Ranger Dan: Yeah, it's not bad, right? Yeah. The backdrop for this program is the Grand Canyon, like, this is not a bad place at all.

Daryl Shack: Not at all.

Ranger Dan: So, I mean, these are great examples of visitors having interactions, and the medicine's going with them, it's going with them, but we've also talked about the [Zuni ARTZ] Co-op, and this is, I think, something that's really important to touch on, because it's a way for artists to get out into the world more, and spread their love of art and their culture to everyone else, not just in the Four Corners area, but, like, around the world.

Daryl Shack: Yeah, that's a good point, that's a very good point, because I think with Co-op, as a collective, I think it's really made a big difference. We come together as like-minds with different media. I belong to a co-op that has silversmiths, painters, potters, fetish carvers like me, then we have new age, you know, graphic artists that are also involved, we have textiles, so it's really expanded, and generational-wise, it's also really been really good, because we have veterans, we have students that come from a program that we have in Zuni, it's called the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program, and so they work with young children, they do programming which utilizes different types of artistry to make sure that, you know, our children understand the far depths of where artistry reaches.

Daryl Shack: And so we have a beautiful building that they have that ties in with the Co-op, and we got into a beautiful building as well, which took some time, but, you know, with the help of the New Mexico Cooperative Catalyst, we were able to utilize their lawyers, and their, you know, I guess their grassroots programs to be able to go and get a good building for this opportunity for our community to share more art. I mean, yeah, Zuni art's everywhere.

Daryl Shack: Namely, it's shared through local buyers that come, or local buyers and buyers from Gallup, they come into the community, but the far-reaching tones of why we do art and share directly is because sometimes it's really difficult to find homes for our art. Sometimes the people who come to buy the art in Zuni aren't so nice at pricing, and it gets difficult. So sometimes in our community, it's difficult to work and show folks how retail works.

Daryl Shack: And so at the co-op, operating at retail, it allows our Zuni artists to go and show our community what's possible. So we have a website, we have our local gallery, which also features the young talent that we have from ZYEP, which they get those artists involved because the co-op artists act as mentors, and we have apprenticeship programs that we work with ZYEP. So we have like a six-week program.

Daryl Shack: They learn a media or craft, then we have a show for the kids, and then they're able to act as members of our co-op, and they have a special wall where they can have their art put up or in showcases right along our art as veterans, and we're kind of ushering them into what we're able to do. And that's where it starts with our children. We're teaching our children the basic gifts of art and then letting them understand how important it is that it needs to be carried on because what we do as art, as I was explaining earlier, it comes from what our people use culturally.

Daryl Shack: Jewelry. We have ceremonies, we need jewelry. And it's almost in preparation for the next world also. We need jewelry to go with also. So it's really, really interesting. And also the fetishes are like gifts to ourselves.

Daryl Shack: Just to explain a little bit, it's about the characteristics of each animal and what they're able to offer us in this world and what we may need or if we know we lack, that's where they can help us.

Ranger Dan: And with that co-op, one of the main themes you told me about is goals. The big thing that it wants to get out, not just to visitors who are looking to buy authentic Zuni pieces, but also for the artists there, is education all around. And now the education for an artist will be different from a visitor, but it's education nonetheless.

Ranger Dan: And it sounds like the co-op is really getting that out there for people to understand from an artist perspective and from a visitor perspective. So what is the education for a visitor versus an artist through the co-op? What's the balance there?

Daryl Shack: Thank you. Thank you for asking that.

Daryl Shack: I can briefly explain. For visitors, we have what we call the art walk. And we've allowed our artists to open their home studios to visitors to come and go, to chit-chat with them, just on the light maybe for 30 minutes.

Daryl Shack: Or if you want to learn what they're really doing, you could book yourself for an extended time visit even. I mean, they're willing to share. I mean, me, if you show up at my place as an art walk visitor, I'll talk your head off and then we'll show you what we're doing on the motor to make animals.

Daryl Shack: We'll talk about what the animals mean. And then eventually, you know, you're able to purchase art directly from me, from my home studio. Usually, I have a few pieces ready to go. Daryl Shack: And you know what's fun for most visitors is that I'm able to finish a piece while they're there. They'll usually take that one home. So, it's really fun for me as well.

Daryl Shack: Whoa. See, we have visitors. They want to let me know.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, birds just fly right through the program. Daryl Shack: Right through our program here. And then, so that's available for the visitor.

Daryl Shack: And at the gallery, you're able to also view the art that our artists put in there. And for the co-op, as artists, our members are able to use the gallery to sell their art, you know. So that's, you know, very basic.

Daryl Shack: And then at the same time, we're able to help them out with, you know, the digital aspects of marketing and, you know, just promoting artists and also finding that, you know, there's training to be had for some of these artists. So we've had, you know, work done to share a little bit of mentorship for our artists' artists. You know, a little bit about coaching through different business practices.

Daryl Shack: You know, for a while, it was all about hashtagging. That's kind of fizzing down. But we're trying to find, you know, the next best thing for our artists to get exposure, networking, letting them know.

Daryl Shack: You know, one of the finer points of sharing is that, you know, information is key. And when you get the right people in the right room, it really goes a long way when we're able to share that. So, I think that's the real key of this co-op.

Daryl Shack: And for our artists, when they find out that, you know, their pieces are selling and on the online scale, we're actually selling it for them at retail and they're getting a little higher price for their work instead of having to go from store to store, from shop to shop, trying to sell your work. So let me paint that picture for you real quick. When I first started, I took my bears to a shop or like a guy in a car sitting in a shop next to a gas station.

Daryl Shack: So, I went over there with my box of bears, first box, opened it up, and he looks at it. Well, only a moment, he said, hmm, another bear carver. Closes my box and shoves it right back to me.

Daryl Shack: And he knew my parents because he's been there for years and he kind of knew me. So, he says, Daryl, you know, there's 500 bear carvers in the community. You know, what are you going to do to make yours different?

Daryl Shack: So that kind of sparked a little bit of, you know, intentions for me to, yeah, what am I going to do different? But it made me feel bad, went home, set up my mom's work table because that's where I make my work pieces, and I was lost for a bit. But, you know, this epiphany came right back because on the table there was coral, turquoise, and pen shell, which is black, and mother of pearl, which is white or real shiny stuff.

Daryl Shack: And so wrapped it together and, you know, made my bundles, which now today at the Santa Fe shops, they call it the "Shack stack." So that's what I want for everybody through the co-op. And that's what we're able to teach them, you know, through marketing, ourselves, what I said earlier, branding, the names of our artists because it's really important.

Daryl Shack: Today we struggle with thousands of imports, you know, knockoffs, if you mind me saying. And even Gucci, we're having the same problem as Gucci, and it's the same thing, you know. We're having to work through that.

Daryl Shack: And so, a lot of initiatives in Zuni have been focusing on art, I think because of Art Walk, too, and what we're able to do. And so, I'm thankful for programs such as this because I hope that our leaders will listen in on this if it does go through as a podcast and to see, you know, what the needs are for our artists in our community because they're vast, vast needs. And there have been scholars who've said that in the community of Zuni, 80% of our homes have at least one artist. You know, so I've calculated that that's about 1,200 different artists in different media. And, you know, in our home, there's five of us, and so we're a little above average, and that's what I like.

Ranger Dan: You know, I was looking at the numbers in our program here, and you say there's about 1,200 artists in Zuni. Zuni is one of the three largest artist communities for the Cultural Demonstration Program for the park. And I want to say we probably have between 75 and 100 artists from Zuni in this program. So, we're pushing almost like 10% of Zuni artists in this Cultural Demonstration Program at the park, which is kind of cool to think about now.

Daryl Shack: I call a vote right now. Everybody, I need you to vote. I need you to vote that whoever's going to be a part of this program to be a Cultural Demonstrator has to be a part of the co-op.

Daryl Shack: Nah, I'm kidding. But that would be nice. Seventy-five Zuni artists, that's a good number, because right now we're dabbling between maybe 30 and 40, and not including the young ones, but these are the artists' artists. And so, you know, I think community is awesome. Community is great. And I'm all about building this artist community that we have back home in Zuni.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, it's wonderful. And where is the co-op located? It's located in Zuni, right?

Daryl Shack: Yes, it's right in downtown Zuni, as I like to say. Right across what they say, Speedway.

Ranger Dan: Nice.

Daryl Shack: Yeah, you can't miss it.

Ranger Dan: So, everyone's invited to come out to the co-op.

Daryl Shack: Yes, absolutely.

Ranger Dan: You're invited to Zuni. You can go to the Pueblo. You can go and experience it, which is amazing.

Daryl Shack: Yes, visit our artists, visit their homes even, you know, and to find out how, you know, the bracelet you're wearing is made, or the fetish animal you bought, how it was made, or the pottery. You know, there's several pottery artists that are on there that are awesome, you know, master artists. That's who I work with, are just masters.

Daryl Shack: And I'm in envy of a lot of those folks that are doing demonstrations and traveling throughout the U.S. And we only got started a few years ago just to get, you know, our foot in the water. But before that, it's all about sit back and then it became like this. You know, I make my piece quick, quick, quick. I'm a very good photographer through my phone, and so I get very good comments online. And I believe it's all about that presentation online. And so it's difficult.

Daryl Shack: Coming and sharing directly is awesome because you can touch and feel and see and talk and find out, ask questions. So this demonstration program is just really awesome. And today was fun.

Daryl Shack: That's all I can say. A lot of fun. I'm so glad to see all of you here.

Ranger Dan: One last thing here. What would you like people to know about visiting Zuni? Like if you're going to go out and visit, what should you know ahead of time before you visit?

Daryl Shack: I think, well, let me start with it's a small village. There's not many amenities. There's only two general stores, like three now. And so be prepared. Gas stations, two gas stations. There's good eateries. There's nice Halona chicken. Don't miss that. And Chu Chu's Pizzeria. Don't miss that at all. So those are places to visit and eat. And our visitor center, please visit them.

Daryl Shack: The tour guides who are working there, Kenny and Sean, they're very knowledgeable. They also offer tours around the Zuni area through different site ruins. So it's really nice.

Daryl Shack: It's really expansive. So there's different ruins that you can see and ask questions and, of course, pose for pictures and whatnot. Also, if you hook up with a Zuni family, there's a chance you might get invited for dinner because that's really what it's about back home.

Daryl Shack: The hospitality. Zuni is known for their hospitality and their chili stews and their oven bread. Their outside horno oven bread.

Daryl Shack: So if you drive into Zuni, there's a chance that there'll be like bonfires going on. But that's really oven bread baking going on outside. So it's a long day process.

Daryl Shack: My wife goes through that.

Benina: All day. Yeah.

Daryl Shack: But then it's a hard shell bread that holds for quite a bit. So at least maybe a week, you know. So then it's game on again.

Daryl Shack: She'll have to bake bread. Just kidding.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. No, it's great. And so we definitely encourage everyone to check out that co-op.

Daryl Shack: Absolutely.

Ranger Dan: I've got the website. You can see that. If it ever works for your future trips in the southwest here, you're welcome at Zuni.

Daryl Shack: Yes. Zuni. Also, if there's a chance that there's any cultural dances, ceremonial dances going on, and if you do go, just be respectful.

Daryl Shack: And there's no photography and no recording and such. So just give everybody a fair warning on that. But enjoy.

Daryl Shack: I mean, people are nice. I mean, the scenery around there, when my people started their migration, they were told to look for the middle place. And to me, they found it.

Daryl Shack: When you look around and we have our four seasons, I mean, with the isolation that we did have, a lot of the cultural, the archaic chants and the prayers and the language that you could hear during times when our people were here, during times of Chaco Canyon, I mean, think about that. It's still back home, whereas a lot of our brother nations in the east and other tribes have lost a lot of that. So, Hopi and Zuni are like the last remnants almost, like the thread, the bridge of what was, you know.

Daryl Shack: And I was fortunate, too, that I grew up with my mom's paternal grandmother. And so, it was a bridge to the late 1800s, you know, to know that bit of preservation that I have to also carry on. It's like being on the bottom of the totem pole.

Daryl Shack: You carry the weight of everybody else on your shoulders. That's right. So it's the most important.

Daryl Shack: Elahkwa. Don ansamona don yadon k'okshi sunhapk'yanawa. Don ansamona dek'ohanann yanekchiyak'yana.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov slash GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 20 Feb 2025 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/4EB30A3A-A9E5-F9F3-94B1FAC55F215927.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-4EE2D2E7-E7D8-2763-0DD43D5F802560F3 Cory Ahownewa Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Cory Ahownewa, a Hopi Kachina doll carver and an advocate for protecting and sustaining cultural knowledge and sites throughout the Grand Canyon and southwestern region, walks us through moments in his life that have influenced his journey not only as an artist, but as a father and servant of his community. 1983 no full 7 2

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Cory Ahownewa: So, for me to see that those kids are dealing with all their hardships and all that. For my second trip, when I got picked to go again, I made prayer feathers for all them kids, because they didn't choose to be brought into this world like that, with all the hardship. And they're the strongest people for our human race.

Lakin: Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

Meranden: And this is Meranden.

Lakin: In this episode, Ranger Dan sat down with Cory Ahownewa, who is a Kachina doll carver and advocate for sustaining Hopi culture, traditions, and knowledge.

Meranden: Yeah, through his work with the Hopi Cultural Preservation Program, he's been able to sustain traditional connections to the Grand Canyon.

Lakin: Cory continues to work on river trips in the Grand Canyon, not only with Hopi, but also other programs from various tribes that call the Grand Canyon home.

Meranden: He also shared moments in his life that have shaped him into the leader, artist, and father he is today.

Lakin: So, take a listen and we hope you enjoy this episode.

Cory: Hello. Good evening there. Welcome to the Grand Canyon Watchtower [Desert View]. This will be my third year here, and I would like to give thanks to Dan and all the people that put together this program. And it's a pretty great program. It's first year for my wife, and it's a great opportunity for the people to get to know the Grand Canyon from the bottom all the way up to the top. And for the Hopi, we have ancestral ties here with the Grand Canyon.

Cory: And I always wanted to bring my wife here after I did my first trip. And for her to come up here and to come to the edge and get to experience that, where she came from, and to feel that in her heart, she gets to know that this is where we, our ancestral ties are from. Yeah, and this will, I've done four trips so far, and three were with the Hopi Cultural Preservation.

Cory: And just last Friday, I was able to get with the company in Flagstaff, Ceiba, and they hired me for the first year this year. So I was able to become a swamper for them, and I lucked out and got on a Cultural Preservation trip with the Yavapai. Yavapai, they live probably like three hours down more, but they still have ancestral ties with this area.

Cory: And theirs is from National [Park] all the way down to Diamond Creek, and that's their ancestral land that way. And Hopi is from the Little Colorado River, or majority of it is from the Four Corners region all the way up past Page, all the way down this way. And the Badger Clan, my clan, they once, when we came up from below the Grand Canyon, and we came up and we formed clans, and that's when the Badger Clan, they went as far as Mesa Verde.

Cory: And after that, they went to Old Oraibi, and that's when they formed the villages there. And they decided that area, the Hopi Reservation, was a good source of dry farming with all the sand that they had over there. Yeah, so thank you everybody for coming, and this is a great experience to finally to get able to start speaking to larger crowds, and it helps me to get a little better with my talking and stuff, because I'm slowly trying to work on going to the high school, or to the elementary schools, talking to the youth, and on up, and giving them the teachings of all this area, and that Hopis have all this, our ancestors chose this area because it's all rich of all these resources for us to do our ceremonies, and I always crack up when we were doing our river trips.

Cory: We were once fishermen, and we lived right down there, right next to the side of the canyon, all the way from the granaries, all the way, even Nankoweap down here. I always wonder why is it called like a different tribal name, Nankoweap, but to me, what it kind of slowly showing itself, like the people that left last, I think that's what they were trying to pertain to, they followed us, they were the last people, the last of the Hopi people that were down here. This was inhabited at the same time as Old Oraibi, and they had pottery, the archaeologists took studies of the pottery from both areas, and they noticed that there was Hopi pottery that was being brought from down here, and from down here was other pottery that was brought to the Hopi reservation at that same time in the early 1900s.

Cory: So, on each trip, I slowly get more and more knowledge of the Hopi ties to this area. Yeah, and we leave from Lee's Ferry all the way to Diamond Creek, that's 226 miles, 10-day river trips, and those are pretty harsh conditions on monsoon, and people will be coming back all black, all tired. The last two, three days, people will be so tired, they'll be trying to stay in the shade.

Cory: Even on the second to the last day, it was 114[°F] in the shade, that was almost by Diamond Creek, or Diamond, yeah, on the takeout. And just this past trip, we ran into the Yavapai, cultural, the youth trip, and they were all so tired, they almost ran out of gas, and then we had to siphon them gas, and they tried to do a dry run without pop down there for the youth group, so they were starting getting mad at each other and having fits and stuff, so we gave them pop and all that stuff. Instead of being in the front, I was in the back, doing my work, taking care of all the, we had 17 members of the Hualapai tribe, and it was a new experience for me to get hands-on experience on how they do their cultural preservation trips.

Cory: So I waited for a while, and then I finally walked up to where they were doing their ceremonies and stuff at Deer Creek Falls, I was waiting there for a minute, then I let them do their ceremony, then I walked up, then they were doing smudging, and the guy that runs that was running that, I didn't know all this time, and he was one of the founders that helped started this cultural demonstration, his name is Bennett Wakayuta, and that was a good thing to experience to meet that guy too, and knowing that he has, his dad is Hopi, and those four other people, they also had Hopi affiliations with them too, so getting to meet them and learning their cultural background and all that stuff, I was pretty amazed that even though we're way up here, we still have ancestral ties with that tribe down there, I was like wow, that was pretty awesome to meet a whole other group of pretty much my cousins, I would say, from down that way.

Cory: Yeah, so it was a pretty good experience, and this coming September I'll be, we'll be taking down the Zuni for their cultural trip, and we'll be doing five days from right below here all the way to the LCR, we'll all be on this side, we'll be doing five days of cultural preservation, of learning more of our ancestral ties down in the canyon. Yeah, so thank you for all of you guys showing up and getting to get our background, cultural background, and on my first trip.

Cory: I was barely on my second year of sobriety, after having my wife have my boy, it changed my life, I grew up into an alcoholic family, and my mother and my father are still real bad at it, and from 6th grade all the way to the age of 32, I was an alcoholic real bad, then I had my son when I was 30, or my wife had my son at 32, then after that, two years went by and it happened so my brother, my clan brother, he was running the cultural preservation office, his name is Stuart Keiwakotua, my clan brother, then he came up to me one day and “Heard good things about you, I was wondering if you would be interested in doing this cultural preservation trip, where you go down the canyon and the Glen Canyon Dam, they're the ones that fund the project for four to five tribes that come down and they make sure that the river runners don't stop at these sacred sites down there within the canyon, and they don't mess it up or alter anything that's within these sacred areas.”

Cory: So. I was all like, “oh okay, I'm interested.” So, on that first trip, my boy was probably 5 then, now he turned 8 on the 18th of this month, so on that first trip, I went for my son, because we didn't know when he was going to have open heart surgery, and he has two different areas that are leaking in his valves, so I came down, stopped at the sacred areas, prayed for my boy for a strong recovery, got down to Diamond Creek, came out, got home, not even a week later, the heart specialist called and asked when we wanted to do the surgery down in Phoenix at the Phoenix Children's Hospital, so I was like, oh okay, right now, because I already stopped at all these sites and I already prayed for our boy, so we went down that Monday morning, 6 in the morning, he did his surgery, recovery, and in the evening time, they put him up in the upstairs, Tuesday morning he was already walking with his IV bag in the recovery area, and the sad thing about it, in the recovery area, there was like 20 plus kids all in there, and me and my wife and my boy, we walked all the way around that thing, and what I noticed, there was no mother and father with their kids there, and that 5 days that we stayed there, none of the parents stayed there like how we did, we slept in the room, we were determined for my son to get.

Cory: So that Friday, he was already released, so for me to see that those kids and dealing with all their hardships and all that, for my second trip when I got picked to go again, I made prayer feathers for all them kids, because they didn't choose to be brought into this world like that with all the hardships and stuff, and they're the strongest people in our, for our human race, the youth, so I made prayer feathers on my second trip, went down, prayed, came back out, and right when we got out, all the clouds came and it just started pouring, so just things like that, it shows itself, nature, it shows itself when you're strong in your heart and you pray a lot, and then it'll show itself, the clouds. Yeah, and the third trip, I went down again, and I was sitting there, we had to, for the Hopis, it's really, we try and stress that we talk Hopi amongst each other every time when we stop at these places, so we have to talk in our language, and every evening we sit there and talk, by the time we get done, it'll be 8 o'clock at night.

Cory: Then you'll just be seeing all the stars within the canyon showing themselves to you, then we got down to the shelves, past the gorge, we got way past down that way, then we're smoking that evening, our tobacco, smoking that evening, next thing you know, there was an anthill right here by me, and they started coming out, and they started talking to me, and they were telling me that all our ancestors are all okay, because in our, the Hopis believe the place you came out from, the emergence area, you're still going to come back over there in your afterlife, and this is your journey, you head back down to where you came from, so even the animal, the ants, even all the way down to the ants and animals and what you see within the canyon, they talk to you, and let you know that we're not here alone, and give thanks for being here, and like what I do, I do the Kachina doll carving, traditional style, and I use all the elements from the earth, and for me to use all this stuff that mother nature gave us.

Cory: I still got to go back to the Kiva and partake in my ceremonies each year, and give thanks for mother earth providing all this stuff for the Hopis, in order for us to do our ceremonies each year, so it's a learning process every year, and I learn more and more as I go down, and yeah, it's a place that changes lives, not only mine, and even the lady, the boatman, even she stood, that evening, we had a gathering in the evening, that one night, even she kind of broke down, and she was, her kids are in the late 20s and stuff, they live in Maine, and they always wonder why she don't really want to go back up to where she lives at, but her calling is here, in the Grand Canyon, to be a river runner, and to take us on our cultural preservation trips, and to learn more about herself too, and know that we're not here alone, and we got to take care of mother nature as much as we can, yeah, but thank you guys, thank you a lot.

Ranger Dan: The canyon's home, the canyon is home—and it's home to Hopi, it's home to Zuni, it's home to all.

Cory: Yeah, all the tribes that are in the southwest region, we all have ties to this area.

Ranger Dan: But it calls in more, it calls in more people, so personally, when I came back here in 2021, I came from Carlsbad, back to the canyon, after being here as a seasonal in 2016 and 17, and I felt this, this ease, lifted off my shoulders, coming back to a place that has only felt like home, after leaving home in Minnesota, and so this is, it brings in more than just, more than just the people who have been here since time immemorial, it brings in the boatman that is doing good work now, but also Hopi is home, that's where your house is, and all these experiences that you're gaining, you're able to bring them back to Hopi, right?

Cory: Yep, yep, and slowly talk to the younger youth, and maybe one day they can choose this type of work, and more people can, the natives can become rangers, and all that stuff, can work in this kind of field, archaeology, and boatman, and accounting for us, all that stuff.

Ranger Dan: Absolutely, absolutely, I know it's tough, there's a lot of, there's a lot of barriers, like in the federal government, even for just anybody getting in, and we're trying to, trying to knock those walls down, especially for the people that know this landscape, that grew up in this landscape, and yeah, we're definitely trying to help get those folks that should be in these positions, in these positions, and with you being here, with the demonstration program, you're helping punch through, and get the word out for everybody as well, which is amazing.

Cory: Yeah, that's how, I seen this guy, his name's Sterling, he was on the river trip, and he does gourds, and I was looking at them, and I was all like, wow, he has nice flower patterns on there, and it shows different kind of scenes, and he, not even only that, he does photography, and he draws a lot, and I was all like, “You're not in the cultural, the cultural demonstration [program]?” he's all. “No,” so he's interesting being a part of this too.

Ranger Dan: You've had many rich experiences going down the river, and every time I see you now, like, you got a new river story to tell, which is, which is amazing, it's, it's, I get to see you grow at the same time, and go through this place, and it's only been three years, but it's, it's been an amazing three years.

Cory: Yeah, yeah, and, and like that, I learned just from this last trip, not to have my phone out in the open, yeah, because I was, like that, I was being the swamper and stuff, I had my phone right there, and at first, I kept putting it in my pocket, because sitting in the backseat, I would have it on this side, then the water would splash up on me, so I put it back on this side, but then I keep changing the song, so I would put it, I put it on top of the ammo box, then I forgot my stake, to stake down, and for us to tie off, when there's no rock to tie off to, so that, Bennett, we're like, this is, we got your stake, then I just jumped up, and I was gonna ride, walk on the side, the side tube, and start walking up to the front, to the bow, so right when I got up, I started running, and my phone just slipped out, and went into the river, oh no, I was gonna jump for it, but it's right before the LCR, and I was like, no, I better not, then, like they say, they all laughed at me, the river takes, and the river gives, it's all like, you know, that's the truth, that's the truth right there, yeah, so it's really amazing, that's true.

Ranger Dan: For those who don't know, LCR is Little Colorado River over here, where it comes in to the Colorado River, and it's a very important place for the, for the people of Call Canyon Home, and the boats that you're talking about, if you're ever out in the rim here, everybody, and you look down, and you see this thing, that's the size of an ant, going down the river, that could be a 30 foot long boat, that Cory has worked on like this year, and been a part of, and that has a motor attached to the back of it, so it's one of the best ways to get yourself introduced to the river, because you're not getting punched by the waves as much, because it's 30 feet of boat, but you can still ride the front, and hold on, and like, sockdolager, down in the gorge, sockdolager is where you get socked, that's the origin, it's a, it's a European word, and it's where you get socked in the face, and it will hit you hard, yeah. What,

Cory: Rubber, rubber, all rubber, yeah, yeah, fill it up, yeah, fill it up with air.

Ranger Dan: yep, yeah, these boats are 30 feet long, they come in sections, they got metal plates on them to, to give some rigidity in certain areas, but no matter, depending on where you are, you get a wild ride, you get a comfy ride, yeah, in the back, but you're always going to get wet

Cory: Yep, yep, yeah, yeah

Audience Member: You don’t need to go to Disneyland or Disneyworld!

Ranger Dan: This is, this is way better than Disneyland, yeah, or any of that.

Cory: Yeah, if you're able to hack it in the front, and you can not back out anytime, and you hack it all the way to Lava Creek, Lava Creek Falls, you can handle any kind of roller coaster ride, I would think so, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and there was one, this, on this trip, and there's this place called Bed Rock, it's a rapid too, and the, the boatman, he flipped his boat backwards, and he shot down into that rapid, then right before we're gonna hit that Bed Rock, there's a big old rock right here, it's right in the middle of the river, and there's one little side right here, and there's a bigger side on this side, so he went in backwards, and right then, and that wave hit us from the side, then he used all that front weight, and it just shot him this way, and they just shot back down, boom, and that was cool, I was like, wow, I never seen that done before, so you learn all these different techniques that the boatman have too, when you're able to be sitting in the back with them, and yeah.

Ranger Dan: It sounds like you got the river bug, Cory, yeah, yeah, it grabs hold, yeah.

Cory: I got that calling, it's a calling that, yeah, I guess you gotta make use of what you know, I mean, like, I mean, if you can catch on real quick, and like that, I heard from another guy a while back, like three years ago, that Hopis can easily catch on to something real quick, you gotta just watch somebody do it a couple times, then after that, you'll catch on to, I mean, it's like that through life with everybody, you gotta watch it, watch them catch on, and learn, learn the easy way instead of the hard way, yeah, so, yeah, thanks guys for coming in, and this was a great opportunity to be able to talk to everybody, and get on, not just only on my carving stuff, but the canyon, and all that.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, it's an absolute pleasure having you out here, Cory, Gloria, it's an absolute pleasure having you out here, too, Riley, always great to see you, dude, yeah, and a bit of his artwork is now on display at their table, showing what, what he's getting into here, so, yeah, we got a whole family of artists here, and I know we got many times in the future to have you out, and new experiences to go along with that in the future, I believe that was a peregrine [falcon] that just went over us here, yeah, so that's beautiful, and you know, I would like to end on one more thing here, Cory, your shirt, this is a great shirt that you get to see around the Flagstaff Four Corners area, and can you explain what 'Don't Worry, Be Hopi' is?

Cory: 'Don't Worry, Be Hopi' is like Hopis, we just don't pray for ourselves, we pray for the whole world, and we're all one human, humankind as one, and we're, we were brought to this earth by the Creator, and we should also take care of the place that we are led into, so that's what 'Don't Worry, Be Hopi' means, it's also you can pray and be one of us too, as Hopi, and the guy that created this, he no longer has his shop on the reservation, he retired now, and when I started my career when I was 15 years old, all the way to like that, 32, he helped get my artwork out there to the world, so after that, then he retired, so I worked out a deal with him to buy so much shirts, then I can be able to sell shirts, and help him out now, since he helped me out for 20 plus years, so yeah, if you're interested, I have these shirts also for sale, different colors, medium and large, and couple 2x left, yeah, so that's the Don't Worry, Be Hopi.

Ranger Dan: They're pretty great, yeah, Be Hopi, yeah, so thank you very much everybody for coming out here tonight, experiencing Grand Canyon with Cory, and everyone else here, if, do you mind a couple questions at all Cory?

Cory: Yeah, yeah, I can take some questions from whoever would. Yes.

Audience Member 1: Just wondering how the kachina dolls fit into the Hopi life, what do you use them for?

Cory: Oh yeah, they're given to the girls at birth, and when the Hopis started doing the kachina dances, they decided that gifts should be exchanged also, so that, that's what they, the kachinas would bring for the girls, their gifts to the girls at birth, the kachina dolls, and they depict all different elements of the, of the world, all the way from the animals, to the, to the clouds, to different plants, yeah, yeah, and that's the kachina.

Audience Member 2: Yeah, you said on your rafting trips, you would stop at sacred sites, roughly how many are on the trip?

Cory: On the Hopi one, we do nine, nine, yeah, and yeah, and majority of them are from the Little Colorado, Spider Woman, Spider Grandmother, and the Hopi Salt Mine, that's right around the bend, and Ankar down here, that's a, what's a village down below, and they, they did farming down below, and the greenery a little ways down.

Ranger Dan: So we have a special guest speaker here, we got Riley, Cory's son coming up here, and we might need to, let's pass a mic here Cory, to Riley, we're, what are we learning about Riley?

Riley: The Hopi Racer Kachina.

Riley: That races against young kids, and people, like men, they race them, like to get like cookies, fruits, uh, gifts, yeah, gifts.

Cory: The racer Kachina challenges them.

Riley: Yeah, whoever gets them, have the, um, uh, snacks, or sometimes there's a chili one too, which is chili one, so, so you're gonna have to race, then if you got, get caught, then, then, um, the, the chili Kachina then goes like this to your face, then covers, covers it in chili, so you're gonna have to wash it off, yeah, and you're gonna have to be fast.

Ranger Dan: Have you raced the Racer Kachina yet?

Riley: No.

Ranger Dan: No?

Riley: Well, I never did.

Cory: Okay.

Audience Member 3: When are you gonna race it?

Ranger Dan: Yeah, when, when do we think we're going to race them?

Riley: (Speaks Hopi) Which is, “I don't know,” in Hopi.

Ranger Dan: There we go, there we go, yeah, awesome, yeah, thank you Riley, yeah.

Riley: ii iss iiyo. It’s cold.

Ranger Dan: It's cold?

Riley: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: Thank you Riley, yeah, um, does anybody else have a question? Uh, yeah, yeah.

Cory: Oh, the creation of the Grand Canyon, uh, some say that it's a serpent that's shooting down to the Gulf of Mexico, and that's how, and there's Hopi stories that our twins, that Spider Grandmother sent down two twins down to the Gulf of Mexico, and they ended up meeting the Mayans and stuff, and that's where they brought the snake dance from, and that's what the Hopis practiced to this day on the Hopi Reservation, yeah, so this is a snake, it brings us from one end of the continent to the other end, yeah, yeah, so that's what the.

Ranger Dan: Have you seen the geologic map of the Canyon, Cory?

Cory: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, the blue dragon?

Cory: Yeah, I've seen that, yeah.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, the geologic map of Grand Canyon, you can get a large poster of it in some gift shops in different areas, it's kind of hard to find now, but it literally, it looks like a serpent, uh, yeah, it is quite interesting to see, so it's, it's really fun to see, like, there's validity to this, yeah, there, there is, it's been passed down,

Cory: Stories, yeah, passed down,

Ranger Dan: But geology is also seeing that too, and it's the two stories coming together.

Cory: Yeah, and there's, and the archaeologists, geologists are slowly seeing it now, but the Hopis already knew this long time ago, this was stories that was passed down generation to generation.

Audience Member: Why did the Hopis move out of the canyon?

Cory: To, to, yeah, to better check out this whole land, the resources that the Southwest had, because they shot all the way down to, um, Phoenix, all the way to Mesa Verde, all the way to Chaco [Canyon], and even this way, they shot, and after that, they formed back at the Hopi Mesas and formed the village, and they noticed that they had all these resources at the Hopi Mesa in order for us to do our ceremonies, so that's when they stuck and started forming clans, and after that, once their clans were formed, each clan has a responsibility for each society, that, um, there's different societies that take part throughout the whole year, and we watch the stars and the moon each time in order for us to do our ceremonies, and it helps us to keep, um, keep alliance with the earth and the rotation, and that's how we try to live by,

yeah, all right, all right, thank you guys for coming.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, this is great. Thank you, Cory.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

Ranger Jonah: To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Thu, 06 Feb 2025 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/97F91F1E-C197-9811-487F47EAA7F4E7D6.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-986FA2C7-D4B0-B287-1CE15A7CE6B895C9 Jackson Family Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, the Desert View team got to speak with the Jackson family about their artistry which consists of silversmithing and moccasin making. We get to hear about fun experiences such as famous collaborations, the impact of their grandmother’s weaving, and how their Diné culture heavily inspires their creative journeys. 1501 no full 6 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Jackson family transcript

Tracie: I don't want to be highlighted as this like, one of only, you know, indigenous people in footwear design. I want to be with my community. I want to be designing all of this stuff with an indigenous design team.

Maryetta: More traditionally, you know, Grand Canyon has always been a sacred place for everyone. You know, we have, we have indigenous people living in the canyon. Who knows the way of the canyon.

Henry: And she used to weave a train because my dad used to work on the railroad. And then she used to make picture rugs. So a lot of my overlays are copied from that.

Noah: I'm very proud to be part of the Jackson family.

Meranden: Hello everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Grand Canyon Speaks! This is Meranden

Lakin: And this is Lakin.

Meranden: In today's episode, we get to hear from the Jackson family. Yeah, they share the different crafts they practice, such as silversmithing and footwear design, all of which is inspired by their Diné culture.

Meranden: It's really cool because this was actually our first Grand Canyon Speaks episode recording that we got to see and be a part of as interns. Lakin: It was also raining this day, so you can hear thunder in the background. Meranden: Thank you so much for checking out this episode.

We hope you enjoy. Tracie: Yá'át'ééh. Shi eí Tracy Jackson yinishyé. Tsi’naajinii nishłį́ . Bilagáana bashishchiin.

Kiyaa’áanii dashicheii dóó Bilagáana dashinalí. On my grandma's side, we're from (Navajo word) area on the rez.

And on my cheii's side, we're from Teesto area as well. Hello, my name is Tracie and I just introduced myself in my Diné language and just said who I am and where I'm from.

Maryetta: My name is Maryetta Jackson.

Tracy is my granddaughter here. My clan is Tsi’naajinii nishłį́ . Tábąąha bashishchiin.

Táchii’nii dashicheii . dóó Tsé Ńjíkiní dashinalí . So that's my clan.

And I live in Flagstaff. I was relocated over there, but originally off the reservation is Star Mountain. Tsotsila is where I'm originally from.

Henry: Shi yáa Henry Jackson yinishyé. Kinyaa’áanii nishłį́. Áshįįhí bashishchiin. Táchii’nii dashinalí. Tótsohnii dashicheii. Ádóó (Speaks Navajo) East of Teesto Ádóó.

Noah: And then my name is Noah Kaminsky.

My clans are the exact same as my cousin's sister, Tracie Jackson, just to save some time. And I live with my grandparents in Flagstaff, learning the family business of making jewelry and everything that goes into it. I grew up in Phoenix, Arizona, a couple hours south in the hot valley of the sun.

It's nice to be in the mountains where it's cooler. Ranger Annie: And so since we're here, why is Grand Canyon important to you? Tracie: Good question. I think since I've moved away from home, when I first went to college, I was first generation in our family to go to college.

And when I told people I was from Arizona, I remember a lot of people from other states in California and the East Coast would ask me if I visit the Grand Canyon every time I go home. I thought that was kind of funny because I never thought of it like that. And then, you know, I started kind of thinking more as I've away from home for 10 years now.

And I think hearing that it's because we do have a special place in our home state and on our homelands on the rez. And the Grand Canyon is a very spectacular place. And, you know, thinking about our relationship, especially the communities here, all the different tribes here in the area, it is such a sacred place where we go and pick medicines.

It's where we do ceremony. It's where people have traditionally met and had homelands and I think that's what's so beautiful about it is that we're literally looking at where our, you know, ancestors from generations prior to us have walked on before. And, you know, not a lot of people get to say that they can go back to where their families are originally from or even where their ancestors or the communities have traveled.

And I think that's something that's so beautiful is that, you know, we just go up north or we just look out in the distance and we see what is and has historically always been part of our community. Maryetta: Tracy, my granddaughter, she basically covered everything. And with us, you know, more traditionally, you know, Grand Canyon has always been a sacred place for everyone.

You know, we have Indigenous people living in the canyon. Who knows the way of the canyon, how it, you know, feeds them and treats them. And so it's, and with us living so close to the canyon, it is a sacred spot for a lot of us that are Indigenous to this area.

And like Tracy said, we do give an offering and thank it for the nourishment that it provides for the whole community in the area. And so it's one of our magnificent sites to see because it's nature. So, and it's, to me, it's just right our back door and we can step out the back door and look at what we have.

I'm very grateful for that. Lakin: So, I have questions for all of you. I'll start with you, Tracie, So, what got you into creating the footwear or designing it to begin with? They do silver work, so how did you get into that? Tracie: Yeah, well, I've always loved sneakers and shoes and I don't know, it's just always been something that I grew up with. I grew up in the 90s, 2000s and, you know, sneaker culture was really big during those decades. And I'm a huge, I was a basketball player, so I think that's what also helped get me into it is the Jordan 3s.

Like Jordan 3s were my favorite shoe of all time. And I remember, you know, living in Flagstaff and going to Foot Locker at the mall. You know, I couldn't buy them at the time, but like I would just go window shopping and just look at these shoes.

And, you know, to me it was just something cool and different that, you know, we've never really had access to in the industry wise. I mean, moccasin making, my grandma's dad, her father was a moccasin maker. And I remember when I got my first pair of moccasins made for me by a Hopi man for my Kinaaldá ceremony and I went to his, you know, his village, we went to his house and he hand drew it specifically to the size of my feet. And I still have those moccasins and I'll be honest, my feet haven't grown too big, but like they still fit. And I think to me that was something that was really cool to see is like almost, again, when I talk about these two worlds of like, almost I'm just walking in between now of, you know, I loved moccasins.

We always wore it for ceremony, but then I would play with these really different types of shoes on the court and, you know, go to school in Air Force Ones. And, but it was like really cool to see like us really break barriers in the sneaker world. And I think that's where like, I would go to the Lori Piestewa tournament and see all those really cool sneakers that kids would be wearing in the games.

And some of those were sold for like $600, like resell for crazy amount of prices, but they still wore them regardless because they were showing them off and it made them look cool. And what really specifically made me go into sneakers and footwear was looking, I was playing at the Lori Piestewa basketball tournament and I had seen the N7 logo there on a drawstring bag. And for me personally, I had never seen native culture with Nike and sport culture.

And that was something to me that inspired me as a kid. And, you know, something I never thought of was like, "Hey, I could be a designer at Nike and make some cool native stuff?" And, you know, it was just something I never thought of that never connected the two because coming from the Southwest, you know, we're taught to be some of the, you know, most renowned artistries and artists in our community, but I never thought of breaking artwork into non-native design that would be sold at other companies.

And I think that's where for me, my interest started to go. And my older brother went to the University of Oregon, which I followed and funny enough, Nike was created by students at the University of Oregon. And so I actually went through the product design program and I was the first native person to go through the program.

And when I did, I asked them when I got their first day of school, I was like, what do I have to do to design a Nike? And then that's where they said product design. So it was really interesting because I felt like I kind of fell into footwear in a way. I didn't really know where I was going.

I thought footwear was cool. I thought, you know, sportswear was really cool. I was an athlete and I just wanted to continue to pursue that type of design work.

And then, you know, when I got my internship at Nike, that's actually where I got to design apparel. I didn't really touch footwear as much, but I did graphics for the brand. And I came from a graphic design background where, you know, my grandparents are silversmiths, my great grandmothers are rug weavers.

And for me, I'm just kind of an eat all of above type person where I did painting. I want to tap into everything that they do so I can be more well-rounded and also come from different perspectives and learn. And when I was interning there, I did this collection.

My first collection was actually designing a collection for Taboo from Black Eyed Peas. And, you know, since then it was always been my brother and I will always look back at him as thanking him for, you know, helping me get to where I was. But that's where I started doing that work.

And then I did get hired as a graphic designer full time. And it wasn't until about two and a half to three years into my career that I actually got promoted to footwear design. And the reason why I was promoted to footwear design was because of the way that I approached design in general.

And I think it was because of my grandparents and my great grandma and the way they taught me how to design rug weaving specifically. Before my great grandma passed, we used, we worked on a rug and she talked about, she talked about the importance of putting intention and meaning into everything that you do and everything you make. Because as a designer, you're putting a lot of stories, you're putting power into these things.

That's why people, you know, that's why chief blankets are the way they do is because of the protection that we're putting into there that will protect the individual that wears it. It goes beyond than just wearing an item of clothes. It's an extension of your body.

And I think that's where, you know, learning that color has a story, the graphics, you know, the symbols have a story, the material has a story, and then the full composition together, it tells a full story. And that's how I was taught to design was everything is intentional. Everything's there for a reason. And if it doesn't serve a purpose, then it's not going to be in there because it doesn't serve the purpose. And so it's being very intentional and mindful about how you go about design. And that's how I've always approached it is looking at this as a very special piece.

I took a class and I asked the instructor. He was an instructor who taught this really famous school in Milan for footwear. It's renowned, one of the best schools in the world. And I was very privileged enough to get into the class and take it. So I asked my professor, what is the hardest class that you guys teach? And they responded with moccasin making. And it just kind of took me back because I thought, why would I learn moccasin making from an old Italian guy who has no tie to our community? And it just kind of made me think like, you know, we are experts in these ways more than what we think.

We're just not being in these rooms. We're not, you know, part of these conversations. And so that was one of the reasons why I decided to leave my big company and invest all of my learnings that I have learned the past six years in the industry from high-end fashion runway to athletic design, designing for, you know, I'll be honest, like I designed for a very famous athlete.

And, you know, those experiences I'm very thankful for and had the privilege to attain. And so that's why I actually wanted to completely change my route and go into a complete direction where I'm investing all this knowledge and experience back into the indigenous community, back into an indigenous company where I can give native youth and mentor them to help them learn indigenous footwear at a different way, at a different level platform. And that's something that I'm trying to do because I'm one of the only women, indigenous women in the world that's a footwear designer.

There's only me and Duane who are the only indigenous people that we know in the industry doing this work. And I think in Western society, they look at that as like when you're at the top and you're alone, that's like success. But for me, to me, that's lonely.

And that's not how society is supposed to be. We should be collectively together. And so for me, I don't want to be highlighted as this like one of only, you know, indigenous people in footwear design.

I want to be with my community. I want to be designing all of this stuff with an indigenous design team. I want to mentor them, give them the skills that they can to make their own footwear by hand.

And, you know, we're all sneakerheads in some type of degree. We love shoes. And I think that's the beauty of it, is that moccasin making is a traditional form of our culture.

Maryetta: With our jewelry, you know, it's just Henry and I. And we started way back in the 70s when we first started making jewelry. And I mean, silver is actually, you know, found in the ground as well. And that's what we work with, and gold, and copper.

Those are the materials that we work with. And we, you know, we don't bring anything else into it, just the natural stones that we use. And so we don't use any synthetics in our jewelry.

We show you the stone of what we work with. And it's not, we don't commercialize it. It's a personal thing that we developed, that we were self-taught.

We didn't have anybody teaching us what we should do and how we should make this. We basically learned the art of trial and errors. I had an uncle that taught jewelry making in Santa Fe.

But he was in Santa Fe, we were in Flagstaff. And with that, we went our separate, you know, way of making our own pieces. And everything we do by hand.

We don't use any machine cast items at all. And we do tell our story of how we make our pieces. When we first started making this piece, we call it our leaf design.

And when Henry designed that, it's the little tiny scroll work that he did, and the little drops that he put in there, and the leaves, and we hand cut all those. And that was to represent growth, you know. The vines that you see, that's what the scroll work was.

And the leaves is the leaf from that vine. And then the little tiny drops was the dew drops off the plant. So we incorporated that.

And to this day, we still use that design. And some people call it feather, but the traditional design that we came up with was our leaf design. And we continue to work with it that way.

And we don't use any cast leaves at all. We hand make everything. So that's how we started our foundation of our jewelry making.

Noah: I want to add just what my grandmother said, because she does a lot of jewelry too. She actually had a dream, which led her to make a new creation of one of the pieces that she's been doing for many years, which is her five-strand necklaces. And she actually incorporates stories into them.

So each bead has to be the exact same size. Otherwise, it throws off the whole pattern, since there's six patterns total in the necklace. And she incorporates usually the wedding basket, the four sacred mountains that surround our reservation, sometimes the morning star.

And it's really cool, because it's really nice to educate people whenever they ask about pieces like that. Because with that particular one piece, we get to tell them three different stories about what we use in our traditions and ceremonies, from babies first laugh, all the way to wedding. And even telling them about our reservation and the four sacred mountains that we call home.

And a lot of our pieces are like that, because we're a bear clan. So we have and incorporate a lot of different bears and bear paws. Even with our overlays, we have lots of different designs.

Most of them have the elements, like geometric patterns and whatnot. But they all go back to traditional stories that we've always been told and passed down from generation to generation.

Henry: I'd like to say something. All my artwork is from my family and from my relatives. Like rug weaving, you have design, like water design. And they have, like my mom used to make a rug out of wool, and she used to weave a train, because my dad used to work on the railroad.

So she used to make train, and then she used to make a picture rugs. So a lot of my overlays are copied from that, like the water design, symmetric design. And then the leaf design, I do like what my wife said, it's from a plant.

You know how you plant something, and then where the corn grows or the watermelon, and then you'll have these drops on it. And then the vines, you know how they curl up, that's what I used to do my design. And one of my friends that I used to work with, we used to sit down and talk about what we're doing.

And I was looking at another guy, he's real famous for doing reticulation, and I like his design. So I start changing some of my overlays like that to that design. So it came out really nice.

Ranger Melissa: We've got it rolling. Anything else y'all want? Do you guys want to say anything? Tracie: If you want to work with us in footwear, if you want to work with me in footwear, want to help any programs or anything it might be, I'm a resource here to help. I want to be here as much as I can to help anybody who would like to learn more, would like to understand the industry more, because I want to make myself available for anyone who might want to go in this route, who might be interested.

I'm happy to talk to you and happy to work with your indigenous programs or such. I do do talks through universities, through classes to help share my story and share that this stuff does exist elsewhere. And there are opportunities outside of our communities to do design in such remarkable ways and impactful ways in big companies as well.

So with my personal experience, I'm here. Please reach out or anything, and I'm happy to be there for you guys to help.

Noah: And then for my closing statement, I just kind of want to bounce off my sister.

You can see my sister and my grandparents have a lot of knowledge based on the culture. And since I grew up in Phoenix, I didn't learn much of that unfortunately. So I consider myself a reconnecting Native American, also known as an urban native.

But I always didn't, I never thought I would end up making jewelry, but I'm glad that I did. But being in Flagstaff has really helped me reconnect with my culture and my family. And I think it's just, you know, just being so close to home, you know, and learning all the stories that I wasn't told as a kid growing up, or even having the same experiences on the reservation, or even at like powwows, or even swap meets, or any kind of family gatherings where there's lots of natives.

So that's why I am very grateful, you know, to be part of this family, learning everything that, you know, came before me, and you know, hopefully passing it on just like they have as well. And you know, I'm still learning from my grandparents, but with my sister traveling all over, I can't wait to learn from her too when she does come back home, because we always talk about stuff like this, you know, and that's how we always like to incorporate it, because she's off all over the world learning from every single tribe, which is great. Well, I'm just reconnecting with our own tribe.

And you know, the fact that she can connect with everyone, you know, and have a conversation with anyone really shows how connected of people we are, because you know, we always want the best for everyone, no matter what it is. And a lot of people think, you know, we have generational trauma, where we hold on to the past, and you know, we're always angry, but we only do that to educate people, you know, because like I said earlier, people think we're extinct, and we'd rather educate you, and tell you what happened, than have you, you know, stay clueless and anonymous of the situation. We're indigenous, we're Native Americans, we're Diné, you know, there's everyone, everyone has their own preference when it comes to their tribe.

And you know, I think it's important, especially for reconnecting Natives, you know, to go and follow influencers, just like my sister, you know, who go and represent communities and build them up. So I'm very proud to be part of the Jackson family. Tracie: Beautiful.

Noah: That's my mic drop. Tracie: Well, thanks to you for having us. It's honestly incredible to share stories and be able to have a platform to tell these things, so that others can relate, you know, because that's where for me, I mean, I still, like, regardless of growing on and off the res, and growing up traditionally, I mean, I still see myself as, you know, I'm still learning stories that have historically been taken away from my grandparents through boarding school and such, and you know, we are to a degree all still connecting back to traditions and that pre-colonial world still, and so I think that's what I've learned as I've traveled to different communities, different countries, is that, you know, we're all working hard to basically, like, you know, deal with colonization and such, and I think to Noah's point, like, I'm very thankful that I can be there as a resource to help you also feel proud enough to show, you know, and get back into the culture, because it's hard, and it can be scary for a lot of our relatives to reconnect, and you know, I just want to make sure that, you know, I can be there to help you reconnect in the right way.

Noah: Always.

Ranger Annie: Thank you. Noah: That was fun.

Tracie: Thank you. Please let us know if you need anything else. You know, this is just the first encounter, like, now we're a community.

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov forward slash grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 24 Jan 2025 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/F823C298-BC83-DF62-01CA1C14ED67A8C7.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-F846D22B-EC9B-5FC0-848061F13A044EE6 Kiana Omi Toadlena Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In celebration of Native American Heritage Month, we sat down with Kiana Omi Toadlena, a Dine influencer and public figure who was a contestant in the Miss Navajo pageant during 2024. She shares her experience, what inspires her to be a leader and representative of her people as well as what Native American Heritage Month means to her. 2181 no full 5 2

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Kiana GC Speaks

Kiana Omi Toadlena: Yeah, so Native American Heritage Month for me means being Diné and being resilient. Always finding a way for yourself and paving the path no matter where you come from and how far you've come. Being Native American should be recognized every day because we're always on Native land.

Lakin: Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

Meranden: And this is Meranden.

Lakin: In celebration of Native American Heritage Month, we sat down with Kiana Omi Toadlena, who was a contestant for Miss Navajo this past year.

Meranden: Yeah, she was able to explain what the pageant consists of, her purpose for running, and a fun experience of silversmithing with other contestants.

Lakin: And she also explained how family is a root source of her inspiration, especially the strong women in her life.

Meranden: We were very honored to have her speak during our festival in November. So we hope you enjoy this episode. Kiana Omi Toadlena: Yá'át'ééh shik’éí dóó shidine’é. Shí eí Kiana Omi Toadlena yinishyé.

Kiana: Naakaii Dine’é nishlo' Táchii’nii bashishchiin,Tó Dích’íi’nii dashicheii, aadóó Kinyaa’áanii dashinalí. (Continues to introduce self in Navajo). Hello everyone. Thank you all for coming.

Kiana: My name is Kiana Omi Toadlena. I introduce myself in my native language. I am of the Mexican people clan and born for Red Streak Through the Water people clan.

Kiana: I am from Sawmill, Arizona. It's a small community near Window Rock, Arizona. I like to identify as a Diné woman through my clans and originally from the Navajo Nation.

Kiana: Thank you all for having me. I'm really excited. I studied at Northern Arizona University with a major in health science.

Kiana: My line of profession is consisting of medical science. That's a little bit about me. Thank you.

Meranden: Awesome. We're really excited to have her here. One thing I really wanted to have is really empowering our indigenous women. I'm really a big advocate for having those indigenous women empower and be seen through these kind of programs and things like that. I'm really glad you're here. I'm going to start.

Meranden: Is this your first time to the Grand Canyon? How far was your drive? Kiana: No, it's not my first time at the Grand Canyon. This is actually my third time. I visited the Grand Canyon for the first time when I was about 12.

Kiana: It was a brief family trip here. I think my dad was really interested in showing us the landscapes because we're from Arizona. I think it's kind of funny.

Kiana: We've never seen the Grand Canyon for almost 12 years. The second time I went with some friends. They were from Georgia.

Kiana: They really wanted to know what the Grand Canyon looked like. We came here. This is my third time.

Kiana: Some of my connections with the Grand Canyon, I absolutely love the landscapes and the environment. It really reminds me of being home and knowing that this is a part of my identity as a Diné woman. Growing up, my grandma always told me that the canyon landscapes are very, very sacred.

Kiana: They mean a lot to us as Diné people. I don't know if you guys know. There's kind of a mini version of the Grand Canyon on the reservation near Chinle, Arizona.

Kiana: It's called Canyon de Chelly. She [grandmother] used to share stories that our ancestors used to hide in the canyons from a lot of the colonizers that were causing genocide in our communities. That's kind of my personal connection with the Grand Canyon.

Kiana: I kind of like to channel that spirit every time I come here. Lakin: Thank you for sharing those connections. I think it's always nice to hear from every individual and also from every culture.

Lakin: There are a lot of differences and similarities between connections and just how we interpret those connections. People who come from the same culture as us and people who are also foreign to our culture. That's nice to hear.

Lakin: I think we'll just get into the next question. There may be some in the audience who may be unfamiliar with what Miss Navajo title is. Would you mind explaining a little bit about that? Kiana: For the Miss Navajo Nation pageant, it's a very prestigious and intense pageant that the Navajo Nation has.

Kiana: The Miss Navajo Nation role consists of being a public ambassador. You're basically in a government role serving as a spokesperson and advocate for your people. Whether that be for the youth, the elderly, or within your own generation.

Kiana: The Miss Navajo Nation pageant has been around for many, many years. I think it's beautiful that it's still alive to this day. One of the main things that Miss Navajo does as the reigning queen, she's able to travel to communities and educate her people.

Kiana: Empower, uplift, and encourage cultural teachings amongst her people. That's kind of what the Miss Navajo Nation title entails. For those of you that don't know.

Meranden: Awesome. I understand that this takes place in Window Rock? Kiana: The Miss Navajo Nation pageant is usually during the Navajo Nation Fair. It's probably one of the biggest fairs that goes on in the reservation.

Kiana: Many communities come and join to experience cultural practices like dances, singing, or even just being with family. I think that's really great that they have it during that time. Meranden: Just to let everyone know, where is Window Rock at? Kiana: Window Rock is a little bit up north of Arizona.

Kiana: It's the capital of the Navajo Reservation. It's going towards Albuquerque. If you're going towards Albuquerque on I-40, you'd likely pass the exit.

Kiana: It's really close to Gallup, New Mexico. Meranden: Awesome. You have to run for this position.

Meranden: It has various contestants. Would you be able to explain the different components of the pageant? How many people may run for this position? Kiana: The pageant is usually announced a couple months before the competition is held. Through that entire process, you're allowed to pick up an application.

Kiana: There are very specific requirements to run for the pageant, such as you can't be married. You can't have a spouse or a significant other. You can't be over the age of 25.

Kiana: You've got to speak your native language, obviously. You have to have a platform. Those are some of the main requirements to run for the title.

Kiana: However, it just depends on how many people are interested that year. Luckily, when I ran this year, when I made the decision to do so, there were six contestants. Six of us, that's kind of crazy.

Kiana: For the past few years, they only had about two or three girls run. It was a little sad to see from the outside that the interest of people wanting to run for this title decreased. But this year, it was kind of an awakening, it felt like.

Kiana: Along with what goes on during the pageant, it's a week-long entire pageant, starting with sheep butchering. Which is kind of interesting for the outside people that don't really understand our culture. They always question, like, you have to kill a sheep to become a queen? I think that's so funny.

Kiana: Butchering a sheep is actually a very cultural and sacred practice within the Navajo culture. We look at sheep as a way of life. They kind of structure our belief systems in family and always being a provider for not just our family, but our community.

Kiana: So we hold the sheep to a very high pedestal. To be able to perform that type of competition in front of many people, it's intense, but it's very beautiful. Lakin: I think that's special that you get to embrace your culture in a public setting.

Lakin: A lot of people might have that fear of being wrong or doing something wrong. But being able to confront that fear and get over that in a public setting while learning more about yourself culturally and personally is very powerful. I'm glad that you got to share that experience with us.

Lakin: That kind of gets us into the next question, which is, what inspired you to run for Miss Navajo? Kiana: The main thing that inspired me were kind of my own life's journey, as well as the mother figures within my family. They've always pushed me to try and go towards my goals and try new things. This year, when I decided to run for Miss Navajo, I kind of wanted to challenge myself.

Kiana: It was kind of a hard thing for me to decide because within my life, I'd like to be more empowered culturally and kind of integrate the modern teachings that I've learned, like being away in college, being away from the reservation, and kind of tie those two together to be the woman I am. My mother, she is a chief of police in Gallup, New Mexico. She was my biggest role model throughout my entire life.

Kiana: When I kind of opened up to her about running for this title, she was the biggest supporter. I would just say that the women in my family inspired me. Lakin: Yeah, I really like the fact that our family is the foundation of our support for us.

Lakin: It starts when we're small all the way to early adulthood and understanding how nurturing those connections and that kinship can really empower us and give us the spirit to empower our children and the community around us. Nurturing that relationship is very vital and important when it comes to our living experience as indigenous communities and families and people. Kiana: I think that's really important because a lot of the youth nowadays on the reservation, they kind of veer away from the culture.

Kiana: Nowadays, I think it's much easier to integrate culture and modern technology to learn better. I've actually tried to push a lot of the youth in my community to download Duolingo. You can actually learn Navajo on there and it's actually really good.

Kiana: Being able to have those resources is just unbelievable compared to what my ancestors have been through. Learning the stories about the long walk and even just the community of where I'm from, Fort Defiance, we still see how the land structures are. I think that needs to be emphasized more in our indigenous communities is learning about those landscapes and everything.

Kiana: I like how you mentioned that there. Lakin: You brought up the point of utilizing modern resources, modern technology and digital technology. What I see is a lot of older people have a negative reaction when it comes to that, but I feel like being able to adapt as a community and as people can really help us prepare for the next stage of evolution.

Lakin: We can do so by, like you said, utilizing those digital resources at this moment. Kiana: That's so important because a lot of the elders on the reservation don't believe in technology. They have a very stigmatized idea of technology.

Kiana: Although it is like colonizing our culture, we can find a lot of help within those resources. I think that is one problem and one challenge I ran into during the pageant was trying to get my community to get out of their comfort zone. I brought a lot of originality to the pageant and I was told this by many, many people.

Kiana: I even faced the backlash of the elders being a little critiquing by the way I speak my language, by the way I look, by the way I present myself. They tell me I'm not native enough or I'm not indulged in my culture enough. That was one of my biggest challenges was to try to fulfill that generational gap.

Kiana: Honestly, it actually inspired me and pushed me to do my very best in this entire pageant. I think I kind of caught a lot of people by surprise. I remember when the photos and the official announcements were being made, I got so much critiques on everything.

Kiana: People even questioned if I was even Navajo or even allowed to run. Just seeing that perspective was very unfortunate. My biggest goal for that entire thing was to re-inspire my people that an individual like me can come from such a small and rural community and still lead everyone on the Navajo Nation.

Kiana: I think that's one thing that I take away from this experience as a win. Lakin: I can speak for myself that you're doing a very great job at representing your people and embracing your culture and identity. I applaud you for that.

Lakin: Next question is how does the role of Miss Navajo empower your community or the Diné people? Kiana: I like to look at the role of Miss Navajo Nation as the bridge between the youth and the new generations with our elders. I know a lot of people just look at this role as a prestigious leadership role, a public ambassador, a public figure. Miss Navajo Nation is there to serve her people in a good way.

Kiana: For those of you that aren't familiar, when I ran for the pageant, my platform was to focus on healing through heritage. I really wanted to emphasize this because you can't really change a community by knowing what the problem is within. I know a lot of our people struggle with generational trauma that leads to mental health problems, domestic violence, alcoholism, and things of that nature.

Kiana: I really wanted to bring more awareness to that from our leaders. In doing so, it was very hard to get that across because the idea of Miss Navajo is just she is one role, she is this, and that's who she's going to be. I would have really liked to expand what the role of Miss Navajo Nation is, helping new generations to get to college or even working for internships because that's where it all starts.

Kiana: I was really pushing for the idea of entrepreneurship on the reservation because I truly believe that entrepreneurship is instilled within us as Navajo people. We lived off trade at one point, and we've always, always relied on our own resources. I think that mindset is essential to being a businesswoman, a businessman, and being indulged in the entrepreneurship world.

Meranden: That's awesome. We do have the cultural demonstration program here at Grand Canyon, which is done at Desert View. Currently, we have two artists, and they are able to demonstrate their craft, talk about their connections to the Grand Canyon.

Meranden: They have the supplies out of this is how it starts, this is how it gets to this step, and this is the finished product. They have that all out there, and it allows them to express themselves and let a lot of people, especially internationally here at the park, to see those kind of crafts. We have someone inside right now that's inside the visitor center.

Meranden: They're able to demonstrate their crafts and tell you the importance of certain things. That brings me to another thing of these are not just items. They have a long story behind them.

Meranden: There's so many reasons why we have certain jewelry, why there's this color, why we have this kind of stone, why this painting is a certain way. There's so much meaning behind all this, and it allows them to use that craft and show it out to the world and allows us to express ourselves. It's really good that you mentioned that as well.

Kiana: I actually love that because small businesses on the reservation don't get enough recognition. There's so many talented artists out there. I come from a long line of hunters and silversmiths.

Kiana: We try to practice that as my grandparents grow older. We're trying to carry on that tradition of being able to silversmith. Actually, some of the jewelry I'm wearing today, my grandpa made for me.

Kiana: A lot of the jewelry that I have is either borrowed or shared between family. It's actually ironic that we're silversmiths but don't own full sets of jewelry. It's kind of our way of life.

Kiana: My grandfather has always been his own businessman, and that's how he provided for our family. To know that as a first-generation college student, I was able to get that far with him just doing that. I think that's also what inspires my entire journey as a Diné woman.

Kiana: I think shedding light on the small businesses on the reservation needs to be talked about more, too. Meranden: That's awesome that you bring that up. When we had this podcast party, we asked the panelists that are up here, what do you want to see in the podcast, like the future episodes? One person mentioned small indigenous businesses.

Meranden: That's definitely something that we would really like to highlight more. I really like that you brought that up. Usually in this podcast, me and Lakin try to ask a fun question.

Meranden: Our fun question is, if you could have any traditional dish right now, what would it be? I would say mutton dumpling stew. I love dumpling stew. If you guys haven't had it, I really recommend you stop by Scott's Food Stand in Window Rock, Arizona.

Kiana: They have the best stew there. I remember growing up, I think it's a comfort food because my late grandma Rose, she would always make it every time we went there. Every time it was cold in the winter and we'd have the stew, it was just a full circle moment.

Kiana: Like, oh my gosh. I would have that for sure. Lakin: Yeah, that sounds good.

Lakin: Maybe you could make it for us next time you come. Kiana: Oh my gosh, yes, I have to. Lakin: A question from me.

Lakin: My personal interest is your attire and your dress. Can you explain a bit more about that? Because I really like the burgundy and the pink, the tulle and the embroidery. Kiana: Thank you.

Kiana: This outfit was actually gifted to me by Jumbo Creations. He's an indigenous designer, rather very luxury. So this kind of style of outfit is not so traditional, but it's very modern mixed with traditional.

Kiana: I know a lot of outfits nowadays have these little embellishments and they kind of just bring that luxury feeling to you. And then I'm wearing, obviously, my moccasins. These were also gifted to me during the pageant.

Kiana: As you all know, I butchered a sheep, so I kind of destroyed my old moccasins. They had, like, blood on them and everything, so they were kind enough to replace those. And most of my jewelry is actually, this was my grandpa's.

Kiana: My grandpa made this. My brother made my bracelet. So a lot of the jewelry and the things you see were gifted, and this is kind of how the Navajo people thrive on having heirlooms, because we don't have a family fund or, like I said, an heirloom.

Kiana: We kind of just collect our jewelry over time, and that's kind of our own little thing there. Lakin: Yeah, that was a cool fit check. Kiana: Thank you.

Lakin: But, yeah, like I was saying, I like the burgundy and the pink. Kiana: Yeah, it was actually funny, because during the pageant, I had to prepare multiple outfits, I would say 12 outfits, and I remember, like, towards the end, I was telling my mom, I really need, like, a brown or burgundy outfit, and during the pageant I was gifted this, and she's like, you got your brown outfit. So I think that was really nice, but, yeah, thank you so much.

Kiana: Oh, and I forgot to mention that this bracelet here, I actually made myself, and we made it as, we called it friendship bracelets during the Miss Navajo pageant, so all the contestants got to be able to learn how to silversmith, and so we kind of made matching bracelets, and it just has so much meaning to me. Lakin: Was it difficult learning how to solder? Kiana: It was. It was actually very scary, because you had to have a blowtorch in your hand, and then at the same time melting the metal, and I remember one of the contestants, she's so cute, she was probably one of the youngest, and every time the blowtorch came on, she would, like, scream, like, we would just hear her, ah, and we're like, are you okay? So I, it was an experience learning how to silversmith, and even though my family and my brothers, my uncles, all silversmith, it was really hard for me to learn, but I did it anyway.

Lakin: That's so cool. I hope you keep making jewelry, and I'm excited to see what else you create. Kiana: Yeah, and kind of branching off of that, I am personally a designer, so I make a lot of dresses at the moment, and I kind of just practice my craft, and I would really like to have my own business one day to create not only, like, traditional clothing, but kind of that luxury streetwear clothing for a lot of the youth on the reservation.

Kiana: We don't have a lot of fancy stores around on the reservation to get nice clothes, so I would kind of like to be that outlet for my people, too, in that way. Lakin: You know, I think we'll do a collaboration, because I do fashion design, too. Kiana: That's awesome.

Lakin: So we'll do a fashion show in the Grand Canyon someday. Kiana: Yeah. Lakin: So if y'all want to come to our fashion show, y'all can do that.

Kiana: Yes. Lakin: No, that's cool. I didn't know you made dresses.

Lakin: That's really nice, and like you said, providing the accessibility to these quality clothing, quality garments, like an egalitarian approach, I feel like it kind of calls back to our indigenous cultural system of values, how we perceive everyone as equal, pretty much. And being able to express that through clothing and art is vital when it comes to sustaining that connection. So yeah, thank you.

Kiana: Yeah, of course, and thank you for that input. I think one thing I would like to shed light on is designing within a Navajo culture has a lot of storytelling. It could be just a zigzag like this, and there's a story that could signify rainfall or thunder or a lot of the holy people that kind of lived with us at one time, how they offered back to us as Diné people.

Kiana: And I think that's where I found a lot of inspiration in learning how to design is learning the stories behind it. So thank you for mentioning that, too. Meranden: I think you kind of touched on this a little bit, but I really like to ask, my mom is like my inspiration for everything.

Meranden: She's done so much for us. And I was just curious, like I know you said your mom is your role model. Along with your mom, is there anyone else that you know who really inspired you like in life overall or someone that you really look up to? Kiana: Yeah, I would like to give this acknowledgement to my late auntie.

Kiana: Her name was Alana Tonalina, and she passed away when I was 11. And she actually was in the hospital for a very long time, and she lost her life to pneumonia. So through her journey, she had a disability and many liver transplants.

Kiana: She did a lot for her life up to where she lived. And because of her disability, she couldn't really go to college. She couldn't live on her own.

Kiana: She couldn't do a lot of things, so she kind of stayed on the reservation. And I remember when I was about 9 or 10, she told my family that she wanted to go to college. And this kind of scared my family because she needed help to kind of live.

Kiana: And when she went away to college, she enjoyed her one year there. And she really, really took on those challenges. And from that, seeing that at a young age, I always knew that I wanted to do a lot of these things that I do for her because she couldn't really get around as far as walking and running.

Kiana: So a lot of the things such as athletics and academics and like I said, entrepreneurship comes from that inspiration from my auntie. So yeah, she's the biggest inspiration in my life. And I like to think that I channel a lot of her energy.

Kiana: And a lot of people tell me that they feel her when I'm around. So I just love that idea. Meranden: Yeah, that's really nice to hear.

Kiana; Thank you. Meranden: And then like once again, it's just like the matriarchal side of us really matters and plays a huge part in how we grow up and what inspires us. And I'm glad that that's something that really touches you and that's important to you.

Kiana: Thank you for asking that. Meranden: Yeah, of course. I really like that because once again, my mom is my biggest inspo.

Meranden: And she's literally the reason why I went to college. She's the one, like if there's anything, my only requirement in life for all of you guys, and she said this to all my siblings, is that you go to college. I don't care what else you do.

Meranden: You've got to go to college. So like that kind of just stems something. And I'm just inspired by how much she pushes us and has done so much for us.

Meranden: Yeah. Lakin: So now that we're getting to kind of the end of this program, we'd like to know what does Native American Heritage Month mean to you and why is that important for our people? Kiana: Yeah, so Native American Heritage Month for me means being Diné and being resilient, always finding a way for yourself and paving the path no matter where you come from and how far you've come. Being Native American should be recognized every day because we're always on Native land.

Kiana: And I think that a month doesn't give us enough justice, but I think during November is the perfect time because we look at the winter as our new year, and that's when the big winds start to come and the snowfall starts to arrive. And I think that's a beautiful thing that we celebrate our heritage and our culture during this month because a lot of change and a lot of good things come within these winter months. And to be Diné is to be resilient and to be Navajo from a rural area means to always, always look at your family.

Kiana: I was always told that you don't need anything in this world but family, and I think that should be more emphasized and kind of that cultural connection should be made through family. Meranden: Yeah, I agree, and it's nice that you also mentioned that. Yes, we have this recognition for this month, but it's happening all the time.

Meranden: We have ceremonies in different months, so it's nice that we have this month, but it's also like every day is an indigenous day for us. And in terms of family, I agree on that. I'm a very big family person.

Meranden: I'm the oldest of four younger siblings, so I make sure I take care of them and my mom. It's hard right now because my two sisters are on the East Coast, so they're really far from me. So when we're all together for different ceremonies or holidays, it's really nice.

Meranden: So around this time, maybe a month from now, I'll be with everyone again. So that family part is really important to me, and they always come first, so I agree on that. Kiana: Yeah, and one thing that I would like to kind of acknowledge within the Navajo culture is that we're a very matriarchal culture.

Kiana: We like to hold our women figures and our mother figures at a high level, and that's kind of how we drive our culture, is based on the life of a woman. And because the women are life givers, naturally we always, always give thanks to first women. She's known as a sanaklehe, so that's how I try to live my life and try to remember who I am a descendant of.

Kiana: And I think that all Native youth should really, really learn about their culture and learn about those stories because you are them. Meranden: Yeah, exactly, and I think that's something that I'm really grateful for with being here at the Grand Canyon is that it's made me get closer to my culture and stuff like that. I love learning the different types of stories and the tribes, what they do.

Meranden: So the 11 tribes that we have here at the Grand Canyon, I've been able to learn different words, different ceremonies, what you're supposed to do at certain dances. So I really like that being here has helped me connect to not only my personal culture and tribe, it has brought me to other cultures, so I really enjoy that as well. But I did just want to ask, as we are winding down from this conversation and going to be passing it on to the audience if they have any questions, is there anything you would like to leave the audience with? Kiana: Yes, I would like to tell the audience to always be yourself and don't ever let anyone dictate what makes you happy.

Kiana: Don't ever fret away from your teachings. Always be humble and always strive for happiness because if you lose that path of who you are and knowing what makes you happy, you'll be lost and it'll be hard to come back. Always look at family for help and always, always, always pray.

Kiana: I found a lot of healing in prayer and a lot of self-identity just through talking to the higher being and really learn your culture. And don't be afraid to go against the grain. I think that's one thing that kind of changed my life during this era of running for Miss Navajo was going against the grain and staying who I am.

Kiana: And I think that's what drew a lot of people into knowing what my journey and what my life is like today. So, yeah, that's what I would like to leave the crowd with. Meranden: Yeah, so this is pretty much going to wrap up our Grand Canyon Speaks interview with Kiana today.

. Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music.

Ranger Jonah: This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov slash GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon.

Ranger Jonah: These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo Azuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Mon, 09 Dec 2024 00:00:00 -0500 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/CEED4B4C-ABB1-4017-CEB5588C5B118BEB.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-CF4B1379-06A7-8793-33EA1FEEBB8FB2EF Skylar Blackbull Speaks - Veteran's Day Special Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, interns Meranden Numkena and Lakin Epaloose speak virtually with Diné artist Skylar Blackbull for the Veteran’s Day Special as she explains her artwork on the Navajo Code Talkers, collaborating with one of her role models, and the importance of the Grand Canyon to her tribe. 1993 no full 4 2

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Skylar Blackbull: So it's really neat to see kind of the breakdown of this code because I think when a lot of times we hear about this history you don't actually get to see what the code looked like and I wanted to use this project to kind of give a chance for people to not only know more about the history but also see the code and see what how it worked and how it operated.

Meranden: Welcome or welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden

Lakin: And this is Lakin and we're both interns at Desert View.

Meranden: In this episode we talked with Skylar Blackbull who is a Diné artist. We invited her out for an in-person conversation but as we head into winter here the snow decided to come and she wasn't able to make it.

Lakin: But we didn't let that stop us though, so thankfully we were able to meet with her virtually.

Meranden: And as this is our Veterans Day special episode she was able to talk with us about her amazing piece called Unbreakable Code that highlights the Navajo Code Talkers.

Lakin: Yeah it was really interesting to learn more about the different components of this artwork along with getting to know more about her creative journey.

Meranden: Also it was really cool hearing about an opportunity she had to collaborate with someone she looks up to.

Lakin: So we hope you enjoy this episode and here is Skylar Blackbull.

Skylar: My name is Skylar Blackbull. I am from the Hosta Butte area in New Mexico currently in Colorado but no I've been you know doing art outside of college for about about two a year and a half almost two years and I've been on my artist journey since goodness since I can remember and I'm just thrilled to be able to be part of this podcast be able to share you know my journey as an artist and the way that I use the way my experiences growing up to influence my work.

Lakin: Have you been to the Grand Canyon?

Skylar: I have a very long time ago. I was just a young girl. My parents had taken my sister and I twice and we both did not actually walk down the canyon. We were strapped onto a backpack and our dad walked us down the canyon. But the two times that I have gone it I have very fond memories of being out there and just how beautiful the scenery is.

Meranden: Nice yeah I think that's something I noticed with these speaks is that usually when we bring them out or it's a cultural demonstration it's usually their first time coming or it's something they haven't been here in a long time. We can go ahead and go to the second question. When did you first start your artistic journey?

Skylar: Sure to be honest I always had a love for art and creativity growing up. My dad being a very gifted illustrator himself and just being around that and him you know doodling for my sister and I on napkins and things of that sort.

I've always had such a connection with creativity including drawing on our walls at home which was probably not the best thing ever. But no like art was such a big stress reliever for me growing up. I loved being part of art classes all through elementary school, middle school, you know high school.

I really didn't you know find my passion or my niche until about when I went to college in my undergrad. I initially started off with a degree in science. I was planning on going in biology and then eventually I switched to kinesiology and then I was like ooh nutrition sounds great.

And then I throughout those first two years of college I had been taking a lot of art classes as a way to just kind of have a breather from all of the other college classes and ended up having so much fun with these classes and enjoying them so much that my professors even convinced me to you know switch my major over to the art department. And the end of my sophomore year beginning of junior year I completely switched gears and went full towards a degree in graphic design and studio art and never looked back.

Meranden: It's really interesting seeing how much the classes and like those experiences and like professors play a big role in what we want to do. So yeah that's really cool.

Lakin: Yeah it's also good to hear that you follow your intuition and that you weren't afraid in that action. So it's always good to hear when people do that whether it's creatively or just when it comes to following a path that's oriented towards a set of value goals.

Skylar: Yeah absolutely and I agree a lot of times when you go into college you kind of go in with these big expectations of I need to go with a science degree or like a very you know a big degree. And you know just have like you said the professors really are big influences in your time at those universities and just hearing their own experiences and their own encouragement of just saying hey you know any possible career or life that you want is very possible. It's just figuring out what works for you and what drives you.

Because the last thing you want to do is go into a field for you know a career and not feel fulfilled in it and feel that you didn't take the road that you should have taken. And not that saying that you can't restart at any age but it's always it's a blessing to know that I was able to figure it out within my undergraduate degree.

Lakin: Since you started creating what medium or media have you explored with?

Skylar: I started off with just your basic pen, paper, pencils, charcoals. At the beginning of my art journey I used to be really against color. I hated anything with color partly because I didn't quite understand it either. It was really intimidating but in having different art teachers and professors they were able to kind of you know break those walls of just the intimidation of certain mediums.

And I took a lot of classes in college to kind of learn you know different styles of art. So I had to I now have kind of expanded my artistry with not only traditional illustration but I'm also an oil painter, acrylic painter. I took a print making class in college and now I started implementing that in my own work.

So I do linoleum prints. I also taught myself how to bead about two years about three years ago I'd say. Yeah those have been my my main sources of work as well as of course my digital work as well.

Meranden: When we first met you I really liked your bags and I was like really excited for you to come out here because I was like I'm gonna buy it finally. But yeah like I like your bags and then the stickers it's just like it brings like a really homey vibe of like being back home on the rez. The spam can, the cheii, like all those things.

I really like those kind of little reminders that make you feel like back at home. So those are my favorite that I really enjoyed seeing. And then I have seen like your beadwork and things like that on like socials.

So it's really cool to see how you've diversified yourself over time.

Lakin: And I also feel like when you do approach those I guess a new skill set, you go into it knowing that you'll have some mistakes and failures in that initial learning process. But once you get over that learning curve it becomes I would say like therapeutic in a way.

Skylar: Absolutely, absolutely. I always you know in taking all of those classes or you know the self-teaching component, I feel like those challenges are what pushes me like no I'm gonna figure this out. I want to figure this out.

This is something I've always wanted you know. And it also is really neat because the more that I have expanded the mediums that I work with, the more that I'm realizing a lot of them kind of bleed into each other. That you don't have to just use certain skills from one type of artistry.

You can use it for multiple. Like I have recently just started blending my beadwork and paintings. Like I feel like there's a way that you can merge different styles of artwork together to kind of create your own unique style but also improve upon many different you know parts of your your art.

Lakin: And I feel like that's a special characteristic of being an innovator or a visionary. So yeah.

Meranden: Yesterday was Veterans Day.

This is our Veterans Day special episode. We are very interested in highlighting your art as it revolves around the Navajo Code Talkers. Would you be able to explain a little bit of who they are and what your artwork entails?

Skylar: Yeah absolutely. So you know my initial interest in this project that I created really did stem from not only by having family who had served in the military. My husband is currently on active duty in the army now. But also just you know I feel like this is such an important part of history that's not as highlighted in your history courses within the education system.

And I didn't realize that until I left the rez. Until I was in college on the east coast. And I have always get questions like "Oh where are you from? What are you?" And I'm like I'm Navajo.

I'm from the Navajo Nation in New Mexico. And they're like "What is that?" And I'm like what do you mean what is that? And just those countless interactions of people just not even knowing who the Navajo people are was really that it was such a big eye-opener for me to know that like wow people don't have the privilege of learning that history. And being one of the few indigenous students on that campus and since I had switched my major to you know art I thought this would be a great opportunity to kind of utilize the skills into creating some sort of visual memorial but also a way for others to be a little more aware of the importance of this history.

So the project that I made was called the Unbreakable Code. And it brings recognition to the bravery and sacrifice of the Navajo Code Talkers during World War II. And the great thing is that the Code Talkers really did restore you know pride in our sacred language.

And this entire project honors 420 plus Code Talkers that I've served but highlights the 29 men who created the initial code. As with the history of that it's important to know that you know in the making of this code Navajo wasn't a written language. So it's really neat to see kind of the breakdown of this code because I think when a lot of times we hear about this history you don't actually get to see what the code looked like.

And I wanted to use this project to kind of give a chance for people to not only know more about the history but also see the code and see what how it worked and how it operated. So with one of the pieces here I can show you now. So this is Nelson S Thompson.

This is his name that covers the entirety of this panel. So what I had done was I used the original code dictionary from World War II and took the alphabet component and used the alphabet to spell out their name in code which was a really neat way because not only did using the alphabet I also got to learn more about the code itself which was really great. So this 29 panel installation it covers many different images as you can see in like different pieces here different images as well as different coding to honor different aspects of the Navajo people.

So for instance you have this one has arrowheads this one has the feathers and then there are two more that highlights corn as in representing corn pollen and then this one representing the tobacco leaf and that all together kind of hints at the ceremony that they do for soldiers before and after they go to war the enemy way ceremony and about how it protects them from harmful spirits before and after the war. It's a very subtle way of hinting that but it's a nice you know way to kind of see that they still maintain their their practices throughout this whole time. But yes in all of my colors as well also have meaning they all reflect back to the Navajo medicine wheel and of course the four sacred mountains.

So those are the colors in the incorporation of red symbolizes bloodshed during war. So there's a lot of hidden components in this project that I created but I also wanted to use those hidden components to represent their the Code Talkers inability to speak about what they have done during World War II till after 1969. But now with this project it was such an honor to present a visual memorial for the 400 plus men who have sacrificed so much and our people continue to sacrifice so much and creating this project it was a way for people just to see this type of history in a different way but also learn more about it as well.

Lakin: Yeah that's good too, I mean it's very interesting obviously not only good but it's very interesting when you see art and hear about artists who connect all these aspects of culture and just understanding the physical and the metaphysical world and like you connected the aspect of color and then also the landscape and just the history itself. That's regarding the Navajo Code Talkers and being able to express that in this one artwork. It's like a huge story in one intangible expression. So when it comes to understanding the landscape and how it informs your identity we'd like to know what does the Grand Canyon mean to you?

Skylar: Sure so you know in learning about our traditional stories with the Grand Canyon for instance you know the story of one of the last battles the twins have with your monster slayer has is at the Grand Canyon with the wandering rock monster and it's really interesting because when you think about that traditional story about how monster slayer is you know going to go fight this wandering rock monster because he's hoarding water and it's kind of reminiscent of the current battle today with the Navajo people in the Colorado River. But now I mean in terms of like that importance of the Grand Canyon is understanding the importance of that Colorado River for the Navajo people and another thing too is I wanted to mention as well is that growing up on the northeastern agency of the Navajo Nation you don't quite hear or understand the importance of that Colorado River for the Navajo people because it's not something that's talked about a lot on the rez just because it's mainly with the people on the western agency you know that have that who need that water and I think it's really important that it is a conversation amongst the entire nation because you know we didn't really hear about it too much especially with you know growing up where I was and I'm really thankful and happy now that I have now become more aware of the importance of that Colorado River and the water for our people but no I mean in terms of it's really interesting just to kind of think about oral traditional stories kind of you know foreshadowing or something just kind of recircling back around how it still circles around this water issue and it's really interesting.

Meranden: And I just want to backtrack on your artwork on the whole Navajo Code Talkers it's like makes me speechless to see it not a lot of people know about that or like you said there's people who don't know that we exist or they don't know about the Code Talkers we have this knowledge and being able to learn these different things so that we can spread that to other people so that they know that we're here we're still doing things and our tribes are still here so your pieces have a lot of impact on me just seeing like seeing that being able to hear the stories on it it's really cool.

Skylar: Wonderful I honestly that's the whole point of the work that I started making especially within these past few years that I want the work that I create to not only be visually fun to look at but also it it is conveying an important message and with the countless countless years that you know we've been wanting to have we want our voice to matter we want our voice to be heard and sometimes art can do art can be one of those voices that can shine through and just show a different way of looking at someone's way of life and someone's you know history and I think it's really important because we learn so much from one another within just artwork itself I mean the countless of art history classes I took the amount you just learn from paintings is insane and when you and when you are able to like incorporate that into your own work you kind of see like oh my goodness like I have this whole other way to use my to my work to speak to different audiences and that's I think with a lot of artists out there we all try and you know find that right audience to kind of convey a message that we were so passionate about

Meranden: Yeah exactly and speaking of like that impact it plays a huge influence on our work and what things we do and that kind of takes me to the next question of did you have a mentor who helped you along the way or you know someone who plays a huge role in your art making?

Skylar: Absolutely! Oh my goodness, my influences and mentors have have really allowed me to have so much on this journey. My mentors go all the way back to high school like one of my biggest ones who was Elmer Yazzie he was my art teacher and also my track coach in high school and he really instilled my love for art I absolutely loved his approach to our education it was very different compared to the it was very different because he really allowed his students to kind of lose themselves in their work he hardly ever put deadlines because he really wanted to give us a chance to kind of focus on a piece and understand what we're doing and connect with the work Yazzie taught with a lot of spirituality as well he always talked about like his emotions when he would work and it wasn't about the technical aspect of art and it was so interesting to kind of be part of that Yazzie was someone who with every student he pushed our artistic boundaries and encouraged so much innovation with our projects and not only he had some of the best stories to share in that class because he's been an artist for a very long time and he's traveled all over the world painting murals presenting his work and just hearing his stories was so encouraging to know that he's had a very fulfilling and successful life as an artist he was a a big big person for me especially in high school you know getting me to to understand the importance of art and um still love him today I always call him my adopted grandfather he's the best ever and another really big mentor for me is Lyndon Tsosie, the silversmith from Gallup, New Mexico he was a really big mentor for me and upon you know just entering in with this art industry when I was fresh out of college it was a whole new whole new life and a whole new path that I was very unfamiliar with and upon meeting Lyndon at a gallery opening which I was showing my Unbreakable Code project it sparked a conversation between us and I had explained my project to him and from there he wanted to collaborate with me on a piece and the piece that we collaborated on was also to honor the Navajo Code Talker it's a belt called "No Place Like Home" and it honors the 400+ Navajo Code Talkers so Lyndon had done all the silversmith on the concho silversmithing of the concho belt and I had created the paintings on the inside of the belt and it was really neat because not only did I get to see a different type of art because I don't know anything about silversmithing I don't know much, but he was just so transparent with his advice when it came to navigating the industry as an artist and he's he's so helpful and the fact that he has an entire foundation about empowering you know the future generations of artists and ensuring that these traditional skills of silversmithing or any type of artistry are passed to that those younger artists I think is incredible the fact that he puts all of that his efforts and you know his accomplishments as an artist back to the young folk and it's incredible and lastly you know I had two college professors that were just incredible and extremely patient I had Steven Pearson and Chloe Irla. Steven Pearson was part of the studio art department and Chloe Irla was part of the graphic design department and both of them were really big in terms of guiding me in understanding the different types of things you can do within our world Pearson was really great at helping me understand the technical ability with art and understanding like perspective and how to properly use your materials and how to take something from a three-dimensional world into a two-dimensional space so it was really nice to understand that technical aspect of art that I didn't really I didn't know um and then with Irla she opened my eyes to a whole new world of art since she was in the graphic design department I knew very little about graphic design upon taking her classes and she really you know just helped me expand my work so much further that's part of that is a huge reason as to why this Unbreakable Code you know was so successful was because she really did help guide me through understanding how to use all of these digital platforms to make this project successful but no each of each of those people have really have made such a big impact in my journey as an artist I have so much I have so much to thank for them because not only were they super patient super transparent with their advice it's just they made a huge impact on making me feel confident going into this career

Lakin: Yeah it's amazing to see how these figures and people have such a huge impact on not only your creative life but your just your life in general and I'm also looking forward to who you're able to I guess I would say be a mentor for in the future like whether you have students or just people who look up to you as a source of inspiration and I'm also glad that you brought up Lyndon because I did want to ask you about the belt I remember I had seen it recently and I was interested in wondering how that was created.

Skylar: Yeah, absolutely so it was actually the the Unbreakable Code project was one of the first ways that we kind of sparked up this conversation of the belt Lyndon had been wanting to do a Code Talker piece for I think about 10 years you know like he had this was something that he's been really wanting to do and when we met he he really loved the direction that I took my project and he was like we need to collaborate let's figure out a way where we can mesh these two these two ideas together he told me about you know the story of what he wanted to do with the silversmithing and the great the really cool thing was that on the actual concho belt each concho kind of had a series of different stamps and the stamps were telling like a whole story of you know the Code Talkers and World War II and like on the left side you see that the stamps are you have like the hogan on the bottom and you see all these arrowheads like kind of circling around the perimeter of the belt kind of shows how the spirit is protecting the soldiers and on the other side you have like the war side where you see like the fighter planes and everything and it's just a really neat way to convey a story through the stamp work and the one thing that I loved you know working with Lyndon was that he wanted to put so much meaning behind this belt and I loved how you know he was telling me how this belt is not meant to be worn type thing so the belt ended up being extremely heavy at the end of it with the amount of silver on it and the whole reason why he made it so heavy was another way to kind of convey that message of these men had to go home and not speak a single word about what they had done not even to their own siblings and it was the heaviness of you know of not being able to share any of that I can't imagine on anyone so he made the belt you know that heavy to kind of convey that message of like this is what they came home with and it was such a unique piece to be part of not only hearing like his story from the silversmithing but also incorporating you know the work that that I put into it as well I created these super tiny like two inch by one inch paintings that went on the back side of the belts and they also had hand-painted images and as well as the text but the text was English and Navajo so the Navajo text was highlighting the the message that was sent during the battle of Iwo Jima the send demolition team to Hill 362B so I had that written out in Navajo so that was part of the paintings that I created and the other part we're listing out the 29 men who created the initial code. So it was really neat to kind of have like two different types of art combined into one piece you very rarely see painting and silversmithing in one so it was so much fun I really enjoyed it and just hearing Lyndon's passion and my passion behind this just really blend itself for us to create such a unique and moving piece.

Lakin: I don't even know what to say, I'm just no but, I was really interested in how that piece was created.

Skylar: Yeah it was such an honor and it was funny because I had didn't realize but I had gone to school with a couple of his and his boys so that was also a funny thing I'm like yeah I went to school like two new kids but no, we've become really good friends, you know meeting at the gallery opening collaborating at a piece and we have very we realized we had a lot of similar mindsets in creating work that is different from what people see especially at different shows like Lyndon was really helpful with you know how to approach these shows such as the Autry, Heard Museum and the Indian Market and you know being part of those experiences you get to see the level of art it's just insane but to also go into that knowing that you can push artistic boundaries every single time and it's incredible to see what people take and make being but being part of this collaboration with Lyndon was super eye-opening but also just such an honor to be working with an artist such as himself

Lakin: Yeah and I'm really looking forward to seeing where your creative journey goes at this point and I'm sure many other people do as well. So since we're getting to the end of this we like to just recognize this month as being Native American Heritage Month and we would like to know what does Native American Heritage Month mean to you?

Skylar: Absolutely, I mean it's an exciting month, it's a national recognition for you know, our all Indigenous communities, people, and everything of that sorts. It's a time to provide recognition to celebrate, to bring acknowledgement to the challenges of many nations across the country I always say and I live by that the motto "Every day is a good day to be Indigenous". Yes, this month is extremely important and it's you know it's wonderful to know that we have this month to celebrate but I think every day should be a celebration of our past, our present, and our future and that every day should be an opportunity for us to step closer to having our voices heard and knowing that people that yes we we are here, we are resilient people, and we are continuing to fight for everything that we believe in and you know that month allows us that extra push that every day should be like that. So the motto is, "Every day is a good day to be Indigenous"! Meranden: Yes I like that, but we did just want to end with one more question. Is there anything that you would like to leave the audience with? Skylar: Oh good question, I mean to anyone out there that you know is any type of creativity out there I feel is important to share especially if it shares who you are as a person with your way of life regardless I think it's it's wonderful to see people's personal journey reflected in their work regardless of what that work is even including in the sciences just seeing your personal journey reflected in your work I think is so important to see and you know I think with you know this month, it it's a reminder that every day should be a day that we speak a little louder and have our challenges be acknowledged and celebrate who we are as a people because every day is a good day to be Indigenous! So yeah.

Meranden: Awesome!

Lakin: Yeah, that was it was great talking with you and learning more about who you are as a person not only as an artist and giving you a chance to elaborate on your artwork especially about the Navajo Code Talkers since we are celebrating Veterans Day and honoring the veterans you know we appreciate it very much

Skylar: Of course, and thank you so much it was such an honor to be part of this and if anyone who would like to see any more of my work you're welcome to visit my portfolio site all of my work is out there, the belt is on there, the Unbreakable Code is there, so please feel free to to visit, but no thank you so much it was such an honor to talk to y'all and appreciate everything.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 01 Nov 2024 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/F5A2D4A3-BCAF-ABF5-5325502E8AC3EC7F.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-F5B4F2D2-EDE6-1DDD-AF60FDF0B850CA21 Zane Jacobs Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ranger Annie speaks with Zane Jacobs (he/him), who is Diné and the first traditional, local president of Flagstaff Pride! The conversation revolves around his experiences with Flagstaff Pride starting as a volunteer to now president, along with how he grew up with the Grand Canyon in his backyard. 1910 no full 1 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Zane Jacobs]

I like to play with gender roles. I will put some eyelashes on, some highlighter, and a full beat on my face and go out. I've gone out in heels, I've gone out in corsets, I've played both roles, and I've never felt uncomfortable in my skin, and I wish I had that confidence back then.

[Meranden]

Hey y'all, welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden, and I'm an intern here at Grand Canyon National Park.

[Ranger Melissa]

And this is Ranger Melissa.

[Meranden]

Before we jump into this episode, we are so excited to welcome you to season two of the podcast. Oh yeah!

[Ranger Melissa]

Yes, our team has been able to have some amazing stories and conversations with more voices, more lived experiences, and more fun.

[Meranden]

We hope you are just as excited as we are to venture through season two and get to hear some amazing stories.

[Ranger Melissa]

Speaking of amazing stories, let's start off with Zane Jacobs. He is Diné and the first traditional indigenous and local president of Flagstaff Pride.

[Meranden]

Yeah, and it was so exciting to hear his connections to the Grand Canyon, his experiences with Flagstaff Pride, going from a volunteer to now president, and what it means to live in Hozho. Once again, welcome to season two. And without further ado, here is Zane.

[Ranger Annie]

I'll let you introduce yourself, Zane.

[Zane Jacobs]

Hi everybody. My name is Zane Jacobs (Introduces self in Navajo) I go by pronouns he/him. I am also the president of Flagstaff Pride. And yeah, I live in Flagstaff, Arizona. So yeah, I'm excited to be here.

[Ranger Annie]

Cool. And so I do like too that you mentioned your pronouns. So he/him. I go by pronouns, or I use pronouns they/them. Do you want to talk a bit about why those are important?

[Zane Jacobs]

Yeah, I think pronouns are extremely important, not just our community, talking about the 2SLGBTQIA+ community, but in all communities, it's an easy way to reaffirm someone's identity. It's, you know, it's validate who we are. And it's simple.

It's just, it's an easy way to do it. And I think it's, yeah, why not? Yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

And so how do you identify?

[Zane Jacobs]

I am actually a gay Diné man. So I am a Navajo male that is gay. Yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

And so what is some of the history of queerness in Diné and Indigenous cultures?

[Zane Jacobs]

So quite a bit. So I wrote some talking points down, so I didn't forget them because I'm horrible on a mic and a stage, which is kind of crazy because you see me on a stage a lot. So in Indigenous cultures, queer identities were actually just part of the community in the past.

They've always been recognized. They've always been appreciated, especially in Diné culture. We have had, I forget the word.

I mean, my mom's in the audience here, so she may actually know the word, but it means special people. So where we are all genders and no gender at the same time. So our two-spirit, which we go by nowadays, has always been recognized by the Diné people here.

[Ranger Annie]

And did you ever notice like a change, like when people started using the terminology two-spirit in your community?

[Zane Jacobs]

I did. So two-spirit comes from the mostly Plains tribes. It started in the 1990s and then all kind of Indigenous people kind of accepted the term as two-spirit.

There has been a little bit of change with the Diné people who go by two-spirit, but our culture has lived with this since the beginning of time. So I say two-spirit because it's easier for some other communities to relate to that, but I identify in my culture as I am who I am. I've always been that person.

I've never had to say that I'm two-spirit in my Diné culture. So there is a little bit of a change, I guess, just to have everyone kind of have a common space, but I've never actually had to do it in my actual family.

[Ranger Annie]

So yes. And so what was your journey to learning about your identity?

[Zane Jacobs]

It's a long, important journey, and I think it's an important journey for everybody, you know, for some self-reflecting and knowing who you are and actually being able to speak who you are. My journey was very simple because I come from an amazing family. So I have an amazing foundation.

I have a very traditional Diné family, but I'm also half-white, so a very supportive family on my white side as well. I've actually never come out of the closet, and I joke about it all the time. I've always just been myself.

So nowadays you hear these kids having these elaborate coming out parties, so maybe I'll have one soon. But right, I've actually, I've always been so comfortable in my own self. I've never had to do it. I've never questioned about bringing a boyfriend home. It was just, "Zane's gonna bring someone", you know? I've just always been myself, and they've always accepted me.

[Ranger Annie]

Yeah.

[Zane Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

And do you want to talk too more about your experiences like outside of your family too?

[Zane Jacobs]

Yes. So I'm very, and I'm very outspoken. I am very who I am and will tell you to your face if you don't like it, get over it, or I'll leave. I don't have to be there, and I don't like confrontation.

I don't, you know? But more and more, I feel like this generation especially has been so accepting and just open to more things that it's kind of easier now. Growing up, maybe not so much.

We had to fight a lot. I'm 42, so in my generation we had to fight for gay marriage. It was a big thing, you know?

This generation didn't have to do that. I have been part of, like I said, I'm president of Flagstaff Pride. I have been on the board of directors for 17 years in volunteering ways on the executive committee and now president, and pride has changed.

Before it was more of an adult community that would come to our events, and now I'm seeing more kids. We tend to focus our festival as a family-friendly festival, which means we don't allow any adult kind of geared vendors at all. We don't have an adult area.

We don't allow any lube or condom vendors or sponsors. We have a kids area. We have a dry area with no alcohol.

We have an area specifically focused on health and wellness, which is in a dry area, and now this indigenous market that we've started for the first time for this year has made Pride so successful. It's changed. The community's changed, and I give credit to this generation for it.

[Ranger Annie]

Nice. You talked a little bit about indigenous market and stuff, but do you want to talk about being the first traditional indigenous president of Flagstaff Pride?

[Zane Jacobs]

Yeah. I'm actually the first local too. I'm from Flagstaff.

Northern Arizona is my home. I was born in Tuba City, raised my whole life in Flagstaff, Arizona, came back to Arizona after college. I started out as a volunteer at Flagstaff Pride and then have seen these kind of waves of presidents and people come in. They're amazing people, but we have never had a local president speak from our community, be the president of our organization. This year, it was probably the first time that we've really given indigenous people a voice at our festival, and it is speaking volumes. This is the largest festival Flagstaff Pride has ever had, which makes us now the largest festival in Northern Arizona, which is amazing.

This year, we had the first indigenous market, which we had 32 Indigenous queer-focused indigenous artists at the festival, which we let in, and it was so successful. I don't see us ever turning back or changing it now. It's good to see that indigenous people are actually having a voice and using it, and people are seeing it now.

I'm fortunate just to be lucky to say that I'm indigenous and to be part of it. I knew it was going to happen. I knew there was going to be a first indigenous president, first local traditional president sometime.

I didn't think it was going to be me, but it happened to me, and I'm really fortunate, and I'm really lucky to be able to be part of it.

[Ranger Annie]

You said you volunteered too. How long did it take to get to the position you're in now?

[Zane Jacobs]

17 years. Off and on, I say 17 years. I started as a volunteer.

I've been part of several different organizations, Jerry's Kids, American Cancer Society, most recently the Shadows Foundation in Flagstaff, I was on the board of directors of, and now Flagstaff Pride, I've always been a part of, but I started as a volunteer, worked my way up to the volunteer coordinator, and then soon after that became the vice president of Flagstaff Pride, and then I kind of just stayed in the back seat for Flagstaff Pride probably for a good 10 years, and then I stepped away for a little bit, and then came back and saw a need where our president emeritus, Deb Taylor, who is just phenomenal, she's changed Flagstaff Pride in so many ways and given us a foundation to do what I'm doing now, and I couldn't be more grateful for her.

To become the first president, she was terming out, and they needed a president, and I accepted the position last September, so this is going on two years now.

[Ranger Annie]

Cool, nice, and so we've talked a lot about, you know, these pride festivals and everything, but what does pride mean to you?

[Zane Jacobs]

It means the celebration, being seen, being who your authentic self is. I wrote all these notes down, and I'm not even looking at them, but I think it's being who you are and having people see your authentic self, and when you're your authentic self, you can truly live, and I think that's what all humans should do. We should be living, and in Navajo, they say hozho, which is living in the hozho way, which is the beauty way, and being in sync with nature, with life, the universe, the land, you know, the animals, living in this spirit kind of way has always been my goal, I guess. It's what I seek. It's what I reach for, and I could never do that if I didn't think I was living my authentic self, so yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

Nice, I love that, yeah, and so you said you were born in Tuba City, live in Flagstaff. Why is the Grand Canyon important to you?

[Zane Jacobs]

So personally, I mean, I'm from Tuba City. If you, if we look over these trees right over here, my cheii, my shimasani is buried right over there. My ancestors are from this land.

Me and my mom were talking on the drive here. This land has provided for our family, personally, for generations. We're from here.

This dirt is in my blood. We still hold cattle over there, branding yearly. My uncles still hunt this land, you know.

The Grand Canyon has always been part of who we are, and the Diné people, our ancestors are from this land. You can just look around over my shoulder here, like you cannot look there and not feel something internally and be like, wow, that's bigger than what we are. That's our ancestors.

That's our people. That's our connection to the earth here, yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

So is this your first time coming to the Grand Canyon, like in the park section?

[Zane Jacobs]

So I grew up, like we were saying, we have a ranch right over there, actually. It's called Big Canyon Ranch. So I actually grew up taking trips and going chasing cattle, finding horses, run off the edge of the canyon.

So we, I've grown up on this land. This is not my first time. This is my second time to the park, but growing up, I've been part of this canyon forever, so yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

Nice. So where do you see the intersection between your identity as a gay man and as a Diné man?

[Zane Jacobs]

So this one I'm definitely going to look at my notes for. So because I really wanted to make sure that I knew that I was hitting this point because I really, I think it's important because they are, okay, so I did say I find strength and purpose. My identity as a Diné man informs my activism in the community, and my experience as a gay man gives me a unique insight how to create more inclusive spaces in our culture.

[Ranger Annie]

This wasn't something we had talked about beforehand, but what, how do you kind of define activism like in this context?

[Zane Jacobs]

That's a hard one. So I feel like I am an activist by just being my authentic self, honestly. I mean, being who I am has put me into an activist position.

Being indigenous today makes me an activist. Speaking up for our people and just putting a light on indigenous people makes me an activist. So just being who I am has already done that.

I can tell you that I've gone to a million protests. I've helped create protests. I've walked them.

I've been at the White House, speaking at the White House. I've been protesting the White House. I've done marches and, you know, I have done all of that, but I don't think that necessarily makes me the activist.

Being my authentic self has made me an activist in this community.

[Ranger Annie]

Nice.

[Zane Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

Yeah. What, you know, gives you hope, especially in terms of like pride and everything kind of going on in the world? Yeah. What's your kind of like source of hope?

[Zane Jacobs]

I hope by being myself and being vocal and being seen gives that opportunity to these young people and these young leaders that they can do it too. I'm fortunate. I came from a very strong foundation.

Thank you, mom. And I've come from this, you know, this accepting world where I didn't have to fight so hard, but as president, I've seen the coming out stories. I've taken in kids who have literally been kicked out of their houses for just coming out. I've helped parents take their trans kids to go see doctors, to talk to counselors, to introduce them to people who are part of this community. I've seen that struggle. I've had friends commit suicide because of it.

I've had family commit suicide over it. I hope by being myself, my hope would be to have these other young people, parents, kids, family members, everybody, see that it's okay to be yourself. It does get better.

As cheesy as that sounds nowadays, it does get better. And there's a space for you in this community and hopefully all communities.

[Ranger Annie]

So what would you tell your younger self if you had a chance?

[Zane Jacobs]

A lot. I think I wish I had this confidence that I had it back then. I mean, I came from a very supportive family.

I keep saying it, but I don't think I've ever been as confident as I am now. I will walk into a sporting event in any way, in glitter, in sequins, in a mesh shirt, and feel super confident and not let anyone give me kind of a stare or I'm right there with them. You know?

I wish I had this confidence that I did as a younger person. I like to play with gender roles. I will put some eyelashes on, some highlighter, and a full beat on my face.

And go out. I've gone out in heels. I've gone out in corsets.

I've played both roles, and I've never felt uncomfortable in my skin. And I wish I had that confidence back then. Yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

And so you've worked a lot with kids, like you were talking about. Do you have any advice for younger people who might be listening to this later and maybe are kind of lacking that confidence that you just talked about?

[Zane Jacobs]

It comes. It comes. It might not be here yet, but it comes.

It will be here. And find yourself in a community. There's a community out here, the LGBTQI+.

It's a long alphabet. . But there, we, I can speak for myself, and I can speak for our board of directors.

We are here to support. We can give you outlets. We can give you what you need if you can't find that space.

But we like to call it our chosen family, because people kind of get kicked out, or people lose some of those people who don't necessarily get it yet. They come around. They do.

And I hope that young people know that there's a community there for them. And maybe it's hard now, but hopefully you will get there. And if not, I'm here to help.

I'm a phone call away. So yeah. And there's not just me.

A whole community.

[Ranger Annie]

Yeah. And so what are, you've already done so much as president of Flagstaff Pride. Like, what are you hoping to achieve in the future in this role?

[Zane Jacobs]

Well, I mean, as a, you know, a president of an organization, growth is always my number one. I always want to see us do bigger and better. Sometimes bigger and better doesn't mean numbers though to me.

So I, right now we're the biggest festival in Northern Arizona. Makes us the second largest right now LGBTQI+ festival in Arizona. I believe Phoenix Pride is number one.

Then it goes Flagstaff Pride, then Phoenix Pride's Rainbow Festival, and then Tucson Pride. This year we had 126 vendors at our festival, which is unheard of and stressful. But it is like, I'm thinking about maybe turning it down a notch.

Maybe we're losing that sense of self and maybe growing in numbers is not where we should be, but maybe growing in community is where we need to be more. So I'm reflecting. I'm going to take what I've learned so far in my first year as president.

And I want to see, I want to do more. I want to do more free events. I want to do, you know, I want to see us not just stuck in a park throwing a great festival with great music, but I want to see events happening all year round.

I mean, we do do other events in town, but I want to see them just as big as Flagstaff Pride is right now. So yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

Do you have kind of like a favorite memory from working in this role or, you know, with Flagstaff Pride for so long?

[Zane Jacobs]

Yes. But I'm going to keep that for myself. There are some things in life that you should keep to yourself and enjoy them for you only.

There are amazing memories that I have, but those favorite ones are for me only. I, and I have cherished them and I have been truly thankful to be a part of where I am today because of them. And those, those, those are for me.

Yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

I love that.

[Zane Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

Yeah. And so what is kind of coming up next for you? I know you've got a lot going on.

[Zane Jacobs]

So this has been a big year. So, so being, I became, I took over as president in September. Flagstaff Pride happened in June.

I knew a month before our festival that Jill, Dr. Jill Biden was going to come to our festival and we were able to bring her out. I was 72 hours before I could tell the public that we were bringing Jill Biden to our festival. And then after that, the White House actually flew me out to the White House and I was able to go to the White House Pride, um, which was amazing because also the American Voices of Indigenous People Festival was going on and the whole, the whole, um, National Mall was just full of indigenous people.

It was unreal. Like it was just, it was so, it was just so crazy that I could talk 45 minutes on that because like I, flying into DC was hard for me because there's, I have a lot of, there's a lot of torn America, you know, white people, a lot of rich white old men making rules about our country. And I didn't see my place going there and it didn't feel right until I saw that festival.

And I go, I belong here. I should be seen and I should be part of this. And I wasn't even at the, I wasn't even part of that festival.

I was going to the White House. So that all happened. Um, you guys called me to come out here and speak.

Next month I am doing the, uh, Aaron White's Tribal Stomp, who was on this podcast, um, at the beginning. I'm emceeing that with Zahn McClarnon from Reservation Dogs and all these amazing artists. Like, you know, if I could keep doing all these events and giving a voice to this community and showing that Flagstaff is, you know, they didn't make a wrong decision in making me president, then I'm happy to be the face of it.

So, yeah.

[Ranger Annie]

Yeah. So how can people here get involved both, you know, with Flagstaff Pride and your organizations as well as, you know, in their own hometowns?

[Zane Jacobs]

So this, this one I'm definitely going to read to you because this one I want to make sure that you all hear because I think it's important. I think being, so there's many ways to get involved. From volunteering with Flagstaff Pride to participating in events, whether they're drag shows, parades.

Our parade was the second one this year. We had over 42, 42 floats in this place and almost 1,200, um, attendees just watching. And it was, like, it was chilling.

Like, it was so, we came around the corner and the whole square was just full of rainbow flags and trans flags and non-binary flags. And it was just like, wow, this community sees us. Like, it was really, really cool.

But being part of these events, supporting other, other local queens and local talent, being part of, you know, a queer collective or a gay straight alliance, supporting these kind of clubs and letting other families know, like, there's a community here to keep people safe and creating a safe place. And, you know, it's, we're always looking for passionate people. We have board seats open.

If you're interested in being part of the board, volunteer. Come see what we do. If you want to be part of it, we want you to be part of it.

So come. Yeah. You can always come.

You can reach out to me at zane at flagstaffpride.org. You can go to our website at flagstaffpride.org, list all of our events, follow us on social media, Facebook, Instagram.

[Ranger Annie]

Nice. And so before we kind of open it up to the audience, I have kind of two more questions. One, is there anything that I haven't asked you yet that you were wanting to talk about?

[Zane Jacobs]

No, I think we covered a lot.

[Ranger Annie]

What do you want the audience here today and those listening to take away from our conversation?

[Zane Jacobs]

I think honestly, and I can't repeat it enough, create a safe space. Let the youth know that we're here to create an environment and a community that people should be who they are and enjoy being their authentic selves. I think it's important for everyone.

If you don't agree with it, maybe you need to learn more about it. And if you did not learn more about it, then maybe that's not for you. Some things aren't for me and I don't let it bug me.

Let it go. So I think if I can let someone take something away, let people be themselves. And if you have questions and as long as you have no ill intentions towards someone, ask those questions.

Let's spread this knowledge and let people be who they are.

[Ranger Annie]

Thank you so much. And I also really appreciate that you were like, "ask me anything". And I was like, oh, the possibilities. So now, yeah, if anyone in the audience has a question. Feel free

[Zane Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Guest #1]

I just want to start though, but my second clan is Kiyaa'aanii and I'm also from Tuba.

[Zane Jacobs]

Oh, yay!

[Guest #1]

But my question is, well, actually, you're really inspirational and like so much confidence and there's a lot of motivation. I'm just curious of who your mentor is?

[Zane Jacobs]

You're sitting right next to her. You really are. My mom has come from a world that not many would survive.

And to see my mom do it is all the motivation I know that I need to do it in this world. Stay close to your traditional ways because that's all you really need to. Navajo and Diné people, traditional ways, it's beauty.

It's the hozho way. So living this lifestyle, being close to your culture, be close to your mothers and your grandmothers and your aunts. That's my foundation.

I come from a line of strong women. I'm getting chills. I love you, mom.

I am so fortunate just to see these women be like strong indigenous women. Take it in. Soak it.

When I lost my grandmother, it was one of the hardest things because she was just, she was a woman that you were like, you never wanted to cross, but you wanted to be everything that she was. I see that in my mom. You'll see it in your family.

Diné women are special. Take it in, especially Kiyaa'aanii You know that.

Yeah, of course.

[Ranger Annie]

Any other questions?

[Zane Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Guest #2]

We're from Australia, so I don't know a lot about, I guess, the indigenous people of here. You mentioned that being homosexual men in that community, it's not really a thing. It's just part of the culture. Can you speak a bit more about that?

[Zane Jacobs]

Yeah. So actually, so being two-spirit in indigenous communities, not all, there are some indigenous communities where it wasn't accepted. And I don't want to speak for all indigenous communities, but a lot of indigenous communities have kind of come together and accepted this term as two-spirit.

Someone who's lived in both of these gender roles. There is no masculine feminine in this two-spirit world. And actually, in Australia, the indigenous people there have the same thing.

So, you know, Souksavanh, who's on our board of directors, actually has his PhD and just came back from Australia. He actually teaches at NAU. He's doing this amazing class on sexual identity.

He speaks about it all the time. He's amazing. Look him up.

He's on our board of directors. Flagstaffpride.org. For me, it's just a life.

I don't go preaching it. I don't go around practicing. I have no awards about being a two-spirit of the world.

I don't. I just, this is who I am and this is what I live. So it's hard to kind of just, yeah, "what do you want to know?" Because it's just my life. And I can say that for the two-spirit people that I know, it's just them being themselves and living their life. And we never really been saying, you have to do it this way.

You have to do it that way. We're just who we are. Well, thank you.

[Ranger Annie]

Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been great. Thank y'all for coming out. Looks like it's also going to be a beautiful sunset. *fades out*

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA.

[Ranger Annie]

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we're on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 01 Nov 2024 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/F5EEA80D-E875-3716-77409C40CF216A08.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-F5F523CE-A353-CAA6-679A04A5536FDC28 Ciara Minjarez and Shalitha Peaches Speaks - Native American Heritage Month Special Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, Ciara and Shalitha sit down with Ranger Dawn to explore their inspiring journey of connecting indigenous communities to food sovereignty. Together, they share insights into how this work has deepened their understanding of stewardship, culture, and what it means to be "elders in training." 2368 no full 2 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Ciara and Salitha GRCA Speaks Episode 2 Season 2

[Ciara]

So when we think about it, we have really still been eating like we're on rations. So now with the younger generation, we're starting to realize and acknowledge that, yeah, we need to make that change. We need to go back to our roots, the kind that you eat, you know, and really embrace it and start revitalizing that food as medicine, really.

[Ranger Lizzy]

Welcome, I'm Ranger Lizzy.

[Ranger Melissa]

And I'm Ranger Melissa.

[Ranger Lizzy]

We are so excited to share this episode with y'all.

We sat down with Shalitha and Ciara from White Mountain Apache Tribe to talk about food sovereignty. I really love the way that they're decolonizing their relationship with food.

[Ranger Melissa]

Yeah, they're really doing amazing work. Listening to this episode, I love the way they refer to themselves as women of change because they're breaking the norms, like not just for themselves and their community, but for the global community and the next generation.

[Ranger Lizzy]

These women are truly amazing. So without further ado, Shalitha and Ciara.

[Shalitha]

Hi, everyone. My name is Salitha. I am coming from the White Mountain Apache Tribe.

Also, just to kind of identify myself with the land. So I come from a, Ciara and I both come from a band [band name in Apache]. So this is the connection that we associate when we're introducing ourselves to the community or to another indigenous tribe.

But basically, in our language, that it just basically means two hills that cut into each other. So on a reservation, it explains a certain location. So I work in four different job areas.

One is actually my own personal one. It's a, I'm hoping to be a business, which is fostering young Apache gatherers. Elderlies in training is one of the one things that I really like to say.

And it's basically working with youth and teaching them the Apache foodways within our reservation. Another one that I'm a part of is a non-profit in coordinating with people that want to come to our reservation and help local projects that are happening, especially with the agriculture area. And then also working at a tribal farm called Ndée Bikíyaa, the people's farm, as a farmer's market coordinator and marketing a lot of the produce that's growing at the farm. And what was my fourth one? There's another one. I just tend to like my mind right now.

But yeah, so that's who I am and kind of where I come from.

[Ciara]

Awesome. Yes. Thank you, Shai.

So hello, everyone. My name is Ciara Minjarez, and I come from the Fort Apache Indian Reservation. A lot of my background work is in our background work is in farming.

We really try to get with our roots back into we say like it's we need to return back to our roots, the kind that you eat, you know. So when we talk about our work and in terms of food sovereignty and resiliency, we have a lot of programs that are dedicated to to working with those those food systems and really tweaking them to be self-sufficient so that we don't have to really rely on that many people. So for me, I work with Local First Arizona as the Indigenous Foodways Program Manager.

And with through that job, they allow me to work with all the Indigenous tribes in southeastern Arizona, mainly farmers, ranchers, gardeners and growers, providing technical service, technical support and resources throughout our our entire nonprofit. I'm also a part of different community committees. One of them is called Chaghashe Bidan Siine, and that's the White Mountain Apache Child Food Security Program. And what we did was we tried to come up with out of the box ideas on how to get children fed on the reservation. So we can talk more about that later. But another one, that's how me and Shai really kind of got together and had a partnership with what she's doing and and coming out here and talking about teaching the kids and expanding their knowledge.

Because like when COVID came, gosh, you know, we lost a lot of knowledge there. So it's up to us to keep keep it going. And then I'm also part of a nonprofit called Spring to Action, which we we like to, we're in the process of really becoming a physical sponsor.

We want to be able to provide funds through our tribe without getting through the whole paperwork process. We want to make it easier to access that not just for our tribes, but for all tribes. And we started just building this alliance with our partner tribes.

And it's just been a wonderful experience because, you know, there's one thing that we always all have in common, food. You know, we always all need food. So we're excited to talk to you guys today about food sovereignty.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, I'm so excited. This is like so my jam too. So I kind of wanted to yeah, just get a background on y'all.

What was your relationship to food and farming like growing up? Like, how did you get into this work? Like, where did that curiosity spark from?

[Shalitha]

Oh, my gosh. So for me, I was your average res kid running around in the summer, like by down by the river getting all tshie and everything. But when I say tshie, I mean, like all dry skin and very dark. So but for me, food has always been a connection I had, especially within the Grand Canyon area, we have so much similarities with food. And we were able to do some walks here and see some of the food that are familiar back home. And one of them was the sumac berries, and it's very sweet and tart.

And we had a walk this morning, between 11 and one. And so we're able to do a share that taste testing. And so for me, I've always remember having that food and not really knowing the importance of it.

And so it's always been something that I felt connected with, especially with a lot of the jobs that I have currently, and currently work with and network with. So there's, I feel like for me, food has always been a vast connection. I'm actually looking at being an ethnobotanist, which is basically the study of plants within a certain region.

I mainly geared towards the White Mountain Apache region and highlighting what our Apache foods are and hopefully being able to share it with the world and networking with other indigenous tribes and trying to help them create that and decolonizing our way of food and revitalizing a lot of those teachings back into the indigenous communities.

[Ciara]

So awesome. I love that. Yeah.

So for me, I had growing up on the reservation, you know, we're always, always looking forward to that time of the month, when they would give you different commodities, they gave you a box of commodities, they had all different types of food. And it wasn't until I got older, that I realized these foods are really high in preservatives. There's a reason why our people are dying from diet related diseases.

And it's because of this, this food that we get so excited over, you know, there's this brick of cheese, we call Apache gold, you know, and it's commodity cheese. But it's, it was stuff like that, that I always used to identify, like even fry bread, you know, everybody loves fry bread, but they don't know the reason why it's that we started making fry bread, that is not an indigenous food, but it was more like a culinary creation out of what we were given. And they talk about buggy flour, and rancid lard.

And that was kind of where we, that was kind of where I started my journey and looking into that. And when I started working at the farm, they were able to teach me like, did, did you know that this food that we used to eat, and then that food pyramid that they have that they're giving us now, it's not for our indigenous bodies. That's not how we used to eat, we never used to sit around all the time, we were always out getting our food.

So when I started looking into different ways of like, even my body, myself, I had was like, diagnosed with prediabetes. And I started freaking out, like, why I try to like, you know, I've been eating the food that has we've all been eating. And then it made sense, because a lot of people I knew had it, my grandma had it and just going back to the farm and for them teaching me like, well, you know what, it's because it's traveling all these ways, and they're trying to make it last forever.

And when they do that, it lasts forever, inside your belly, inside your gut, inside your your body. And so, yeah, there's a lot of food that we like to share when it comes to each other. So when we think about it, we have really still been eating like we're on rations.

So now with the younger generation, we're starting to realize and acknowledge that, yeah, we need to make that change. We need to go back to our roots, the kind that you eat, you know, and, and really embrace it and start revitalizing that food as medicine, really. So that's where I kind of like built it was really when I came to the farm, and I met Shai and all the cool farmers from Ndée Bikíyaa.

[Shalitha]

And just to let you guys know, I've actually been doing this for about going on eight years. And a lot of the team teachings that I have currently and was able to share with Ciara and do demos with I have learned from my elders, I do not go to school for this. It's something that I was able to learn from my elders, but also learn in my language first, which is Apache, or also known as an Athabascan language.

And so being able to walk in what seems like two or three worlds, because I have to know the plant's name in my language, and then also know the scientific name, and then also identify it in the common name. So for me, learning about foods is not just one world. It's also my people's world in a larger scale of other teachings.

[Ranger Dawn]

So yeah, I love how you give a lot of credit to your elders. And I like what you say, elders in training, like that's what you're trying to do to become to to teach the younger generation. I also know you wanted to talk about like women of change.

So what does it mean for you as like women to be in this role of like elders in training?

[Ciara]

You want to start?

[Shalitha]

Oh, yeah. Okay. So we're one of the main things that we definitely want a lot of people to take away from this podcast is definitely, Ciara, Sometimes I view both of us as women of change, because a lot of the projects that we have came from a simple idea that we wanted to introduce to the community. And so for us women, we are women of change within our community. And we hope to network on a larger scale with other people, with other indigenous people within Indian territory, and then also within the world, you know, because a lot of people, I feel like don't really know indigenous people or their history.

And so and I hope to share that in a way that educates people and understands that we're all the same, regardless. If one of us gets cut, it's going to bleed red. So knowing that we're all equal, we're all the same, but we're also women are people that are very rooted in our beliefs, especially with women, I feel like women, usually the men are the ones who are the head of the house.

At the end of the day, I feel like it's the women who runs the household because they have to make sure all the dishes is washed, make sure supper is on at the time at the same time, make sure the kids are all good to go. And so the man is just a moral support. [giggles] So but that, but then again, they're the protector of the home.

So it's a yin and yang dance for me.

[Ciara]

Yeah. And so like, for us, when we say women of change, I feel like we're the ones who are breaking those change, changing those norms. I know I like to use the reference, well, you know, now we have WiFi in our wiki ups, you know, and it's something new. We're embracing that technology, especially when it comes to really fighting the norms of what it used to be. And like I said, we're used to having rations, we're used to relying on the government. And that's where we come in, because we don't want to be like that no more.

We want to be able to take care of ourselves. We want to be able to grow our food the way we want to healthy. We want to be able to go out there and find our medicine because now we can.

When I look back at our reservation, there's so many things that need to change, really need to change. And I feel like in order for us to make an impact, we have to be the ones to put together these events. We have to be the ones to learn about them and make these connections because it's not really for us.

It was never really for us. And I was telling Shai this too, that when we were coming here, we're saying, how can we make this better, the earth better? How can we make sure there's food better?

Not just for us, not for our kids, but for their kids. Make sure this place is still there for them. Make sure they're able to just be healthy, you know, and live long lives.

And I want to be able to see that day, you know, where we can all get along, we can all be healthy together, we can share things. And when I say this, I see it. I see it.

And that's when I say we are women of change, because a lot of people recognize tribes as we always fight. They always fought with each other. They just always just, they're territorial.

But now we say, no, we don't fight no more. We're trying to unite. We're trying to learn from each other and heal with each other.

We've all have this connection. Like even when we talk to different people, we can joke around and it feels good. It feels normal.

And there's trust. Yeah, it feels like trust. Yeah, there's that trust there.

So that's where we said, we see it and we can feel it. You know, that's the change. And we're the women that help try and bring that, you know, to the, not just our community, but to all the tribal communities, to even the surrounding communities.

Because like Shai said, we're all one person. We all deserve to eat and live together in peace, you know.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, we were chatting on the phone like earlier in the week. I loved how you're talking about like collaboration between the tribes and how that meant a lot to you. And I also appreciate how much you value education and like teaching younger people.

Did you want to talk about like the programs with, where you're at when you're teaching younger people these things?

[Ciara]

Yeah. All right. So yeah, one of the things we did back on our tribe in the White Mountains, and that's Fort Apache Indian Reservation, we were out there, we were able to, well, it all started off with a simple survey.

We asked the tribe, what do you want when it comes to your food systems? How can we support you? And unanimously, hands down, everyone said, we're tired of seeing our kids hungry.

You know, we don't want any of the kids to be hungry. And it wasn't just our reservation. It was Hualapai.

It was Hopi. It was CRIT. You know, it was all of these different tribal nations.

And so we came together and with our tribe and we had to ask ourselves, how can we get these kids fed? How can we get them sustenance when they don't have a ride? They don't have money, you know, and they just are miles away from the nearest food source.

And so we talked to our elders, how can we, how can we feed the kids? And they said, are you crazy? Do you see all this food around you?

You know, and so we were like, oh, wow, okay. And we learned how to make a yucca blossom soup. It's like a wild cabbage where we come from.

And it's a really sweet wild cabbage. And so through that, we were able to invite different tribes to come and share this meal with us. And just having them share that meal and that conversation, that laugh, that bond we had, they started coming up with their own ideas.

And we just, we recently visited Hualapai's community garden and they're able to feed their tribe for four days, their whole tribe. And that's big on a scale that we are at, you know, like where we still have hungry kids. So that's where we really, we're learning from them and we're partnering with them to build these resources and connect in that way.

And like I said, we're all about uniting each other now and we're done fighting each other. We're ready to heal together and grow together. And that's just like one of the many projects that we work on together.

And I know like, there's just so much going on and there's so many, and I feel like one of the reasons why we like to do this, like we all know what happened with COVID, but that really took a lot of our elders. And I think it really put a fire under all of us to start learning and writing our own books and learning how to pass that knowledge onto the kids, like metaphorically, because we don't really write our own books, you know, like we don't really do it like that. We have to go observe, touch the plant, smell the plant, see the colors, and even just looking at it, you know, is it spiky?

Where is it growing at? What's next to it? What eats it even?

So in just identifying those few things, it was super important to our survival. It was like, and it was something that we were told was detrimental. You cannot leave the reservation.

And so now we encourage everyone. There's nobody telling you, no, you know, you don't have to eat like this no more. I can show you, you know, I can show you how to get it, how to clean it, how to cook it, how to eat it, and how to preserve it.

And that's how, and I always tell myself, it's nothing that we didn't know already.

[Shalitha]

So for me, having to like really find out where my starting point was in my community is really just like, I wanted to hear from the community what they wanted, what was impacting them and making it harder for them to have access to healthier foods. And so we did a survey and I really just reached out to the community and hearing from them in that way. And then on a larger scale, we also reached out to farmers and getting ideas from them and really working with them and making them, they really became a family.

And so within these territories, I'm actually pretty familiar with a lot of the farmers in the area. And there was one that we really met with, his name is Tyrone Thompson, and he just recently passed, but he was a really good friend that really connected me with these areas and networking with them. So for me, it's always been just being able to have a casual conversation with whoever and finding out what is it that we can do to make this work, whether whatever project it may have been.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, I like how you're empowering the youth. I agree, it's so important. You also said you wanted to mention avoiding exploiting plants.

So did you want to expand on that?

[Ciara]

Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. So we like to talk about a lot of our plants and share a lot of traditional foods, but there's a lot of things that we get scared of.

If we show you this plant, will you harvest it to extinction? But we don't want to be selective about who gets to learn this because it should be common knowledge to eat climate smart and acclimated to where your environment is. So we try to teach, but at the same time, we want to teach that don't leave things worse than when you found it.

Don't overharvest these plants. Don't sell them for your own benefit to where we can't buy them no more. And it's easy to do that.

And we always try to expand on really making sure you know how to sow the seeds, even though you take some. Don't take the whole plant. Don't rip it out from its roots.

There's some ways that you can harvest things. There's safe ways to make sure that they will keep growing, that there will be plants for the next generation and the next generation. There's times when we had, for example, the century plant, and that's how long it takes for it to be full maturity.

A century, you know, that's a hundred years. And for us to be cutting it down and eating it like sugar cane, I know it's delicious, but I mean, if you cut all of them down, then there's no more for anybody to enjoy sugar cane no more. So we really wanted to get out there and say, you know, be careful of how you take things and only take what you need.

That's a big lesson on where we come from. You don't really need too much. And when we think about the value of things, we don't measure our wealth in what we have and what we're saving up. We measure our wealth in what we give. And it's always like that. It's always been like that.

And that's why we want to really get out there, that there is a way to work together and make it healthy in a healthy way.

[Shalitha]

Yeah. A lot of the times when we do a lot of wild food walk, hopefully we'll be able to do one tomorrow. So if you guys want to come back and check it out, we'll be here.

But usually a lot of the times when I do wild food walks within the community or within other areas, I tend to do like a little small introduction on safety food practices. And so there's different levels of that. And for me, it's just basically respecting the land and leaving it better than what it is.

And basically trying to teach that with the kids to a level that they understand. And what does that look like in making it a lot healthier? Because within Indian country, a lot of kids or a lot of parents tend to yell or spank or do something in that concept.

So I'm trying to do it in a more healthier manner and trying to break that trauma that was instilled in a lot of our communities with boarding schools. So trying to break that trauma and making sure that what we teach is not exploited, especially for the indigenous communities, because a lot of the wild foods are vastly grown from California coast all the way to within Arizona, all the way leading up to New Mexico. So that's a lot of the harvesting areas that I know of, but also I know it because I network with multiple people within agriculture fields, especially with farming, because that's one of the main things that I do outside of my life.

So I'm a full time farmer, eight hours for work, and then the rest is outside of life in my little garden with my family. So really a lot of the teachings that I instill is also something that I do at home. I'm the oldest, and so I teach my oldest to seven siblings.

So I carry the responsibility of teaching a lot of our Apache teachings. And what I teach them is what I use to teach the kids within the outer communities and learning how to handle certain situations. And so for me, just introducing that to a kid and at their level, and as it gets to adults, it's a lot more easier.

And I feel like it's a lot more fun because you get the actual questions, the hard questions. And I love it when they ask me questions, it keeps me on my toes. And it also lets me know, okay, I need to learn about this topic because they're asking about it.

If I do not know the answer, I'm going to go find it and I'll get back to you. So that's a lot of the things that for me, I fairly enjoy with the kids and teaching those ways, but making it in a healthier environment for them.

[Ciara]

Yeah. And then one last thing that I wanted to really share with you guys was that a Hopi elder had talked to us. And when she had joined us in our wild foods walk, she had told us that all these plants that you see out here, they're not just plants.

And when you think about your family and your history, you got to remember that all these plants have their own families. They have ancestors and roots that have been here way longer than we've been here. Our families probably ate these same plants.

So when you're out there and looking at things to eat, always remember to just treat them with respect and let them know that, you know, I'm here, I'm here with you guys. And thank you for letting me be here. Because a lot of the times you don't know what's poisonous.

When we were doing our demo earlier, we were talking about the [Tree name in Apache]. And there's a tree over here. It's right over here.

And it looks just like it. And so when our elders teach us, we walk with them and they tell you, you can drink this one. But that one right there, that one will kill you.

[Shalitha]

And they go right next to each other.

[Ciara]

Yeah. And they go right next to each other. So it's really, and they will only tell you one time.

So you really have to pay attention. And so that's always embedded into my psyche when I come go and teach the kids like, that one will kill you, you know, and that really wakes them up. Like, yeah, these plants, they're very powerful.

And then there's ways you can eat them. There's ways that they can be used for medicine. There's all kinds of things.

Just with the sumac drink that we had, it had been researched by different nutritionists that came and tested it. And there was different beneficial things that had come out of that plant. And they had tried to take it off the reservation and domesticate it for medicine.

But when they did that, it completely depleted it of all its nutrition. And so it's like the land is telling you, leave it alone. You know, it stays there.

And there's a reason why. And I feel like for us being able to share that with you guys and that drink and all of that stuff, it was because you're friends, you're our visitors, and we're happy to have you here and even show you guys like, if God forbid, you know, you're ever out there on your own, at least you know there's a sumac berry out here that can help me. And then there's also like wild tea, yucca blossoms, yucca bananas, juniper, juniper berries, there's so much going on.

So yeah, I think, yeah, that's all you have. So much, so much there for, for all of you guys to just look at and explore. And even just if you have to, there's ways to survive.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, I love that ending statement. That was great. Yeah, just like, walking with reverence on the land and with reciprocity too. I guess, well, I don't know. Yeah.

So I guess, how can people strengthen their relationship to the land?

[Shalitha]

That's a good question. Hmm. Well, it all depends on the individual. I feel like it depends on how connected do they want to feel grounded.

And also, where is your connection to the land? Where do you come from? So for me, as a White Mountain Apache, I identify myself from a certain landscape on our reservation.

And so for some of you guys, I identify myself as a [Apache Tribe Name] and on the reservation. So that's Apache language. And it translates to the two hills that cut.

And on the reservation, that's actually an area called Diamond Creek. And that's where Ciara and I identify ourselves, or know our connection to the land. And when you know the connection to the land, you know where you're from.

It grounds you. So for us, for me, if you wanted to get connected to the land, get to know yourself. Because at the end of the day, I feel like a lot of people don't do that or take the time to.

Even at the moment, this view, you know, like, look at this view, I would have never thought to see it. So at the end of the day, get to know yourself, connect yourself, know where you come from. So you can have that feeling, that sense of groundedness to the connection to the land.

[Ciara]

And I feel like for me, being able to really reconnect is just helping out, you know, doing your part when it comes to recycling. I cannot stress this enough, composting, you know, a lot of that waste and that trash, it's very detrimental to our environment. And as farmers, we know this.

Every year, we see the berries going further and further in their lifespan, getting shorter and shorter. And we can see these changes and even just preserving water, learning about groundwater and where it comes from. And I feel like for one, being self-sufficient.

If you're able to rely on yourself and grow your own food, I can honestly say like growing your own food, eating your own produce, that is the reward. It's such a reward, but it's hard work. And I feel like that's a lot of things people take for granted.

We all eat, but do you know who or where your food came from? You know, like not, and I don't mean the store, you know, like we all know you went to the store, but like how many miles did it take for your food to get there when you could just like, let's go walk right there and go get that, you know? And that is just saying like all of those different organisms that live inside that one little plant that's right there, those are healthier than anything you can buy at the store.

And I feel like even just trying to learn how to revive your soil and even reintroduce nutrients in the soil, anywhere you go, you know, that's, it's always a little help, a little push in the right direction can get you there. Even if you, you need resources, you know, we, the farm has great ones on the website. We can even, I'm pretty sure the park has a bunch of stuff that we can look to.

I see that they're recycling and that's just, it really, it brings joy to my heart because like we said, we would be nothing without the land. You know, we literally wouldn't have no clothes, no shelter, no food to eat if it wasn't for this land. And look at how we're treating it.

Look at what we eat. Why do we need all these preservatives? Why do we need this fake meat?

You know, we have healthy stuff. Food is medicine. And when we think about what we put in our bodies, we should think about the stuff that's growing around us.

That doesn't really hurt society in a way that alfalfa and cotton has because can we eat that? Why are we growing so much of it? You know, it's just thinking of it that way.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. I also want to open it up to questions if anyone has any too.

He asked, what are their favorite foods to harvest?

[Shalitha]

Yeah, for me, I feel like one of the ones that always takes me home is always the sumac berries. I remember when I was a little kid, like seven, eight, I would run around in my backyard and just grab it off the bush or the shrub and just eat it like it was candy. So for me, I say sumac berries is one of my favorite ones.

I love it when we make it a drink. But for me, when sharing a drink with a visitor that's not from my area, it's a way of welcoming you into our home or into our land or into our area. So for at that sense, for us, that's kind of what sharing a drink for us looks like, especially back in the day before we had transportation, we walk or ride horses.

For us, our people, our relatives would travel over the mountain or into the canyon just to go visit us. And so when they got to us, we would say, you've you traveled such a long distance over the mountain to come see me. Here's a drink, refresh yourself.

And this is also considered a seasonal drink. So sumac berries is one of the ones that I fairly enjoy. Another one is actually wild onions.

So in our area, we have seven different varieties. And I enjoy the ones that are pretty rare, but they're pretty sweet. They're considered a part of the potato family, but they are they are considered onion.

So so those are probably one of my two favorite, favorite ones to eat.

[Ciara]

I know this is gonna sound funny, but I like nuts. So if you can see, yeah, if you can see this, this tree, this is a pinyon tree or that one. That's a pinyon tree.

And you can pick those pinyons in November. And they're so good. They're addictive.

You can't just get one bag and say you're going to eat a couple. No, you'll eat the whole thing. So and then where we come from, specifically, we have the emery oak tree and it grows golden acorn, which we harvest like right before monsoon season and we grind it up.

Yeah, we we call it Apache gold. And it's got a bitter taste to it. You know, it's an acquired taste.

But oh, my gosh, I can eat that by the handful. You know, it's just and then there's so many where we come from. We even have black walnuts.

We harvested them one year and we all look like demons with black fingers for like two weeks. Yeah, it was.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah.

[Ciara]

And so it's also used as a dye. And so there's so many different plants out there and nuts that we can eat that have just been around since time immemorial. You know, and our ancestors just needed a little bit of them to get by.

So we're excited to even just have them and the ability to harvest them. And and we want to there's really, if anything, acknowledge our elders and our ancestors, because if they didn't fight hard to keep these food ways for even just us to be able to listen to them and still learn about them like that's that that was hard, you know, for them. And even just going back to what they came through and and even for them to teach us and for my generation, for me personally, I don't speak my language, but I'm trying to learn.

I'm trying to learn as much as I can through translation. I'm always asking, "what'd they say?" "What they say?" You know, and that's my barrier. My parents thought, oh, don't don't teach her Apache, because if she knows English, she'll be able to get a good education. She'll be able to get farther in life and better work skills.

But here I am like now I'm trying to learn Apache so I could be a tribal chairwoman. You know, but it just it's just things like that, that we that's why we call ourselves women of change. And that's why we like to do what we do today.

[Shalitha]

And so the main reason why we really talk about the things that we're really experts in in our community is because it introduces the whole concept of food sovereignty. And what does that look like in your communities?

And so for those of you guys who do not know what food sovereignty is or or sovereignty, sovereignty is okay. Oh, okay. So, so food sovereignty, basically, basically means to be able to feed yourself and not rely on outside resources to feed yourself.

And so for me, when we talk about this to you guys is to introduce that concept. And what does that look like in your community? How like from so when I did the farmers market coordinating, I had to research and figure out why I was doing certain calls, why I wanted to do certain things.

And one of the main thing was to educate people about food sovereignty, being able to feed themselves, being able to support travel owned businesses, and and leave the money on the reservation so it doesn't go off the reservation. So that's what we really want to introduce when we're talking about a lot of things that we do within our communities is just to let you guys know, like, hey, this is what food sovereignty looks like. And it doesn't matter where you come from, in the world that looks different in wherever you come from.

So definitely think about that concept when we talk about these things is what is food sovereignty? And what does that look like in your community? In 2016, we didn't have a White Mountain Apache co op.

Now we do we have six members. This is our first year in it. We're hoping to go another year but add members as we go and support farmers that are on the reservation who need that help.

And so it's a slow change. It may be something that we might see when we're elders, or see some of our children, children might see that change. But knowing that I was a part of that to create that for them.

is definitely still going to be a win regardless of I'm here or not. But I know that my work carried on.

[Ciara]

So and like we were told before, by the teachers who taught us, we're not trying to teach you this because we want you to stay at our level. We're trying to teach you this so you can run past us and, and show me how to get there, you know, or even just help us work out run with me, you know, let's run together. And let's let's learn.

Let's trailblaze through this, this resilient society called food sovereignty and learn how to do that for ourselves.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon first voices visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we're on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 01 Nov 2024 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/F60B48E1-F7DD-DC5D-BB75D5A89FD9348D.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-F60D2FE3-CA7F-1484-8FBFBD6D6BFB8A7E Zuni Royalty Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, 2023-2024 Zuni Royalty, Keia Gasper and Jaynie Lalio, walk us through their experience as representatives of the Zuni community and how it has shaped their character. They also shared some of their aspirations, traditional practices and beliefs that empower their connections with Zuni culture and the Grand Canyon. 1942 no full 3 2

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Keia Gasper: It just makes me happy seeing the younger generation get involved with culture and religious activities and wanting to know about who they are and where they come from and it's just very important for our culture.

Lakin: Welcome back everyone, my name is Lakin and I'm an intern at the Grand Canyon National Park.

Ranger Melissa: And this is Ranger Melissa.

Lakin: It's always inspiring to see youth from the Zuni Pueblo, where I'm from, grow into leaders and take action for our community. Ranger Melissa: Yeah, what's cool is this episode is with Zuni royalty who served in 2023 and 2024.

Lakin: So both Keia Gasper and Jaynie Lalio walked us through their experiences and how they become role models for the Zuni people.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah, it's really inspiring to hear from them and hear about, you know, what are their aspirations, how they're connected to the Zuni history and culture, as well as maybe even learning some cool delicious recipes.

Lakin: Yeah, so sit back, relax, and without further ado, here is Keia and Jaynie.

Keia Gasper: Keshi, ko' don sunhapk'yanapkya. Ho' Keia Gasper le'shinna. Hom annodi:we Ana:kwe deyan Yaddokya:kwe a:wan cha'le. Ho' asdemłan ha'ilekk'ya yałdo debikwayik'ya. Hom a:łashinna a:chi Ronda Johnson dap Antonio Gasper le'shinna. Lukkya debikwayinan ho' 2023-2024 Miss Zuni. .

Keia Gasper: Hi, good afternoon, my name is Keia Gasper. My parents' names are Ronda Johnson and Antonio Gasper. I am 18 years old. My clients are Tobacco and Child of the Sun, and this year I am the 2023-2024 Miss Zuni.

Jaynie Lalio: Keshi, ko' don sunhapk'yanapkya. Ho' Jaynie Lalio le'shinna. Ho' asdemłan dobalekk'ya yałdo debikwayik'ya. Hom annodi: Donashi:kwe deyan Dowa:kwe a:wan cha'le. Hom a:łashinna a:chi Erica dap Jason Lalio Jr. Lukkya debikwayinan, ho' don a:wan 2023-2024 Junior Miss Zuni. .

Jaynie Lalio: Hello, good evening, everyone. My name is Jaynie Lalio. I am 16 years old. My clients are Badger and Child of the Corn. My parents are Erica and Jason Lalio Jr. I am the 2023-2024 Junior Miss Zuni.

Ranger Kelli: Thank you, thank you. A lot of times people who come from all over the world here at Grand Canyon, they want to know, like, where's Zuni? So, like, can you explain to our audience, like, where is Zuni? . Keia Gasper: Well, Zuni is a small Pueblo, three miles out, and wait, oh my gosh, three hours out, and we come from the Grand Canyon, and we had to find the middle place, and so we went to our people, our elders, went down to find the middle place, which is Zuni.

Ranger Kelli: Yeah, and it's interesting because, you know, I think, like, we have these 11 tribes coming in from all different locations here at Grand Canyon, and then Grand Canyon is now a national park, and it just kind of created this, like, borderline for tribal communities in a way that people are always, like, amazed, like, how far Zuni is, and then they're like, how does this, how far Zuni is, and then they're like, how does it connect to the Grand Canyon, right, and I think this is important to kind of, like, talk about because, like, what you just said, it's a place of kind of, like, an emergence, right, and then as well, it's just, like, a very sacred connection, but also for Native communities, we kind of, like, it's just not, like, okay, Zuni is here, and then the canyon's here, and then that's it, like, we are connected in a whole, we connect this whole region, and it's just not the canyon and then Zuni, but also the water, you know, and I understand that with Zuni, the Colorado River and the Little Colorado River, that is a connection as well to Zuni, but I just want to let you all know, like, how, where Zuni is at, and if you all, like, have questions, we can definitely ask at the end, but my other question is, like, what is Zuni royalty? What does that mean? Do you all want to answer that?

Jaynie Lalio: So Zuni royalty, it's from an organization where they wanted someone to be able to represent the Zuni people and the community, so it's giving us a chance to represent on a different type of level, you could say.

Ranger Kelli: Do you want to answer that?

Keia Gasper: Yeah, it's, like, you're putting yourself out there, and you're getting to want your people to be known, and where you come from, and it's just very important for our culture, because we want to keep our, what we have, keep it going, and we don't want to lose it, because we see other tribes, like, they're beginning to lose what they have, and we're going strong with what we have, and it just makes me happy seeing the younger generation get involved with culture and religious activities, and just getting involved, wanting to know about who they are and where they come from, and it's just, Zuni is a beautiful, beautiful place. I'm proud to be Zuni, and it makes me happy. .

Ranger Kelli: Yeah, and, you know, what you both just said really speaks to, you know, I think that's important for people to hear, is that you are ambassadors in your community, but not just ambassadors for your community, but also for the next generation, right, and then you are leading a role not only for the younger generation in your community, but also keeping that culture going, and as a young woman, I see that you are dressed in your traditional attire, and is that something that you, when you're wearing the crown and representing your community, is that how you kind of, like, represent yourself when you go out into other communities and wearing that attire, and if you want to explain, like, your dress and the significance of that, you're more than welcome to, if you want to.

Keia Gasper: Oh yeah, our ancestors, they dressed like this back then, and we're just carrying on their tradition and making it known, like, where we come, like, what we have is something different than anybody else. I don't know, I've never seen anybody dressed like this or or have what we have, so it makes me happy knowing that we have a unique culture and with everything we have.

Ranger Kelli: I think I find it, like, really amazing today, so our royalty, for y'all who weren't here at the park earlier today, they're actually, we have four royalties here until Saturday, and they're doing demonstration from nine to four at the Watchtower, and so our two members here are, have been here all day at the tower talking about the role, but also talking about the generational knowledge of their community, and a lot of people have been, like, asking the young girls, like, are you selling your jewelry? Are you selling these different attires? But really, they're just wanting to dress how, like you said, your ancestors have been dressing, and I think that's beautiful to know that we're walking in our ancestors' shoes, basically, and we're, they're behind us, you know, and they're behind you right now, and you're wearing that crown, and just kind of representing that and carrying that knowledge, so I think that's really beautiful to express that to the public, and because, like, you're a royalty now, I want to know, like, how did you become, like, Miss Zuni or Junior Miss Zuni? So what are, what are some of the things that you had to do for competition to become royalty?

Jaynie Lalio: So we had a pageant-based, like, competition. We were judged off of a traditional talent, traditional food, public speaking, close interviews, and then there was also a best essay and most photogenic awards. .

Ranger Kelli: Was that all done in one day? .

Jaynie Lalio: Two days, yeah.

Keia Gasper: Yeah, like a week. We were all put together, and all the contestants and everybody, we just got to know each other, and we did the pageant and everything, but this year we ran against ourselves, so we had no contestants for our age, so we got the title, but we still had to go through the whole pageant and everything, and with going back to the getting your crown and the sash, it's, you get, you get, they make a crown for you, especially, because every crown gets made for every year, so there's always different crowns that come in and sashes and everything like that, so what you get during your reign or in the beginning of the reign, your crown and your sash is yours to keep, like, for life, so going, so if you, like, look back or go forward in the future, you can look back and see what you've done.

Ranger Kelli: That's really cool to keep the crown.

Jaynie Lalio: And can I add that the crown is also basically alive. It's your sister. We call it our sister because it chooses you. Yeah, it just, .

Keia Gasper: whatever, like, whatever you're feeling, your crown can feel it, and, like, if you're tired and she's tired, she'll make you more tired. It's, it's crazy. It's just, yeah, like, you can't, like, feel her. You can't know when she's talking to you and stuff, and you just gotta, when you put her on, you just gotta tell her, like, come on, let's go. We got this, and she'll motivate you into doing better for yourself for that day and just keeping it going, you know.

Ranger Kelli: I think that's amazing. Also, what inspired you both to compete? You know, I know, like, right now, you said that you, you already were competing for the crown and without any other competition, but what inspired you from the beginning before wearing the crown, any crown? What made you want to compete to become a royalty?

Jaynie Lalio: For me, what inspired me was I had the role of Zuni Princess before, and I thought that if, that was when I was young. I didn't know what to expect, so going into this year, I was influenced by the people around me saying, you should run another year. You can learn more, so that's what I decided to do, and I never thought that I would have ran by myself, so it was kind of unexpected, but it's been a pretty great experience. I'm glad for those people that inspired me, just, like, friends, family, so yeah.

Keia Gasper: Sorry, can we go back to the question?

Ranger Kelli: Yeah, and I just asked, like, you know, before you became royalty, what inspired you to want to compete and wanting to become a royalty or a title holder?

Keia Gasper: Okay, well, first of all, I, this is, this is not me, like, I, how would I put this into words? I didn't see myself in this position because I didn't think I was strong enough or I was good enough to be a good influencer for my people, and I just thought, I was like, people kept coming to me, and I kept hiding, and they kept coming to my house asking me if I'm running or if I'm gonna run for the position, and I was like, uh, I don't know, and then they pushed me into running for it, and I, I finally said, okay, I'm gonna do it, and I was, I was so nervous because I thought I was gonna have other people, um, like, running for the position, and I was like, I'm not gonna get it, I'm not gonna get it, and then here, once the deadline for the applications were over, and then here, uh, we looked on the royalty page, I looked on the royalty page, and then, actually, we were at volleyball practice, and then we looked at the volleyball page, and it was just only both of our names on it, and they were like, oh, my gosh, what did, what did we get ourselves into, but overall, it's been a great experience. It's, um, it makes me happy going places, seeing, seeing new people, and make good connections, and meeting new Crown sisters, or sash sisters, like, from other places, uh, like, Miss NTU, I'm really close with her, and Miss Indian New Mexico, I'm really close with those two, so I grew attached to them, and they're, like, my big sisters, they watch over me, and yeah, and just, and going back, going back, like, um, in 2009, I was also Crown baby princess, and I was a little baby, little baby, so I didn't know, and then here, look, look at me, I'm Miss Zuni, that's crazy.

Jaynie Lalio: Also, hold on, sorry, excuse me, no, go, funny part, we ran against each other, what's the title, princess?

Keia Gasper: Oh, yeah, then I lost that round, too, sorry, I bet,

Ranger Kelli: but you're both crazy, and then you said, too, like, you enjoy, um, traveling all over the place, you know, meeting new people, is this your first time coming to Grand Canyon?

Keia Gasper: Uh, yes, this is my first time coming to Grand Canyon. When I was leaving Zuni, like, it just, I was so nervous coming here, because knowing that our ancestors are here, and they're watching over us, and just makes me happy knowing that finally get to, like, feel their presence, knowing that they made it safe, safely there, and, oh, wait, sorry, overall, overall, this is a beautiful place, like, I'm so glad, like, our Zuni people came, like, out of this Grand Canyon, like, this is, that thing back there looks like a picture, like, it looks so unreal, but it makes me happy knowing that we have something like this within our history.

Jaynie Lalio: Yeah, this is also my first time coming here, I would say, it's been a wonderful day, just being able to go up to the watchtower, seeing the top, we were standing there, taking a picture, and I just looked and said, this doesn't look real, it looks like a green screen, it's, the beauty here, it's, it's something else, nothing can compare to it, honestly, being able to reconnect with nature on a different, different type of level feels like, like, getting, getting that clarity, to me, that's what it felt like, like, it just, whatever you see, the stresses, it's all gone.

Ranger Kelli: Yeah, and this is amazing to hear, also, like, heartfelt, as well, what you both said, because part of this program, and this Grand Canyon Speaks, a lot of our tribal members haven't come and visit Grand Canyon, even though it's an ancestral home from our 11 associated tribes, and I, being as a native ranger here, and hearing you both speak here, or even seeing your family here, and seeing the younger ones just enjoying the canyon, and this is their first time, as well, and I think that's important, that your voice is being heard here, you know, it's, your canyon hears you, and it feels you, your presence is here, is really amazing, and the whole program of this is to have your voices heard back in the space again, and when it became a national park, a lot of the native communities were forcibly removed out of this place that is home, and I think that's a very important thing to talk about.

Ranger Kelli: I know it's hard to hear, even being, as a native person, but it's now time for healing. It's also time to show your representation out here, and seeing your beautiful regalia, hearing the beautiful songs out here, it's really inspiring. Also, for the next community member who is a young adult, is gonna be inspired to want to sing here too, and to dance here as well, and set their foot here, and they want to come back again next year.

Ranger Kelli: I hope you all come back again next year, and then now your royalty, like, what are your future goals now? Like, you know, do you want to do another pageant, or, you know, school? I know you're all young, but goals are important.

Jaynie Lalio: So some of the goals I will have is to go to college. I'm currently choosing between having options open for schools here in Arizona, because Arizona is just so pretty, and I want to be close to home, so, and after that, I'm planning to go somewhere in the medical field. Still looking at my options, but today, some people were saying my goal should be to run for Miss Zuni again, but we'll see what's in store. We'll see, but I think this role is going to help my goals, because it's made me more open, I would say. It's, I'm able to communicate on an easier level than I used to.

Jaynie Lalio: It brought me out of my shell, so whatever I'm planning to go into, I know it'll help with, help with what I'm planning. .

Keia Gasper: And with me, my future goals, I have so much. So once my last month of high school came, I was like, what am I gonna do? And so I applied to colleges. I was like, I'm gonna go to college. I'm gonna go become a nurse, and then here, I, since I can't leave like Zuni, and I need to finish out my reign, I was like, nah, I want to join the army. I want to join the army, so that's what I'm gonna do.

Keia Gasper: I'm joining the army, and I'm gonna try and become a dog handler, so I work with the canines, so that's what I want to do, because I have a passion for dogs. And recently, my family, they didn't even tell me, I had a dog for like three years, and they called the rangers on my dog, and they took him, they took her, but yeah, her name was Koda, Koda Mae, and she was a cute little rez dog, yeah. But yeah, after the army, I'm gonna try, if I like it there, then I'm gonna do what I can to get my dream house and my dream car, like a western type of house, and I know this sounds so crazy, but I want to Porsche GTRS, so that's my big plan. Gotta save up a lot of money. .

Ranger Kelli: Love it. I love all of it. I love both of your goals. I think when, I'm just speaking from my personal young adult days, like I didn't really have a plan, so I think that it's just inspiring to hear you both, as young as you are, to know what you want, to know what your goals are in the future, and I think that, I think it's important for the kids to hear that, you know, to see a royalty, to speak about their goals, so they can kind of look at, okay, this is what they're doing, maybe I might do that too. I think it's really cool, and I have one more question, you know, I think that if you want to, well actually I have two more questions, but will you all, wanting to do an example of like, I know going back to the competition, when you all do competitions, like do you want to do an example of like an example of a competition, like through a talent that you are, you know, to our audience here, either through traditional talent or through a modern talent, is that all right with both of you to do something like that? .

Keia & Jaynie: Yes.

Ranger Kelli: Okay, so I'm not too sure who wants to go first. .

Keia Gasper: So during my talent, I, for traditional, I did pottery, and I still continue to do pottery. I love doing it because it just takes me away out of reality, and makes me live in a different world, like it's just crazy, like your mind is full set on something you want to create, and I make, I know I make like cool, fancy, or not fancy, but like good enough artwork to present to other people, and it's just, I've been working on pottery for about four years now, and it's just been carrying out since high school, and my uncle, Kevin Johnson, inspired me into wanting to try and see what I can do, what my mind can do with art and pottery, so, and this, I finished this seed bowl this morning, and it's just a representation of like asking for blessings for rain, and food, and water, and just for your plants to grow, and it's just, you're not also like asking for blessings for just that, it's just asking for blessings for the whole community, everybody, and just wanting to make it rain, like we need the rain, it's hot out here, like, but yeah, that's what I did, and I'll pass around an example, and yeah.

Jaynie Lalio: Okay, and for me, I'm gonna stand up for this. This was one of my, what I was presenting today as well, in the top right corner, I, right here, I made a pozole stew called chuleya:we. I was taught by my grandmother, my Wowo, so I thought, being at the recent pageants, I saw that no one really made this type of stew, so I thought, let me give it a try, maybe I can, so it's like a, like a week-long, took me a week-long process, kinda, so first, we had to, like, chop up, or cut the meat, saw it, so I could be able to cut it into pieces, and here, I'm cutting, cutting, putting water into it with corn, so it's able to get that flavor, which we also added salt, I'll get back to that, but here, we, this is the oven that we, I made the fire out of, with wood, in our outside oven, it's called, Hebok'o:we, and then, we close it off with mud, seal it overnight, and then, it should be ready in the morning, which I opened right the morning of our pageant, I was getting ready, walked outside, had my dad open it for me, and just that smell of it was so, so, I don't know, made me hungry, and I didn't eat it yet, so that's the first thing I wanted, but I couldn't, had to serve it to my judges, and it's kinda what I made, and it's also an important stew, which is, which we usually eat on every traditional occasion, and it's also just like, oh, I'm craving some chuleya:we, let's make some, that's basically the type of food it is.

Oh my gosh, I'm getting so hungry now. I love talking about food, by the way. I'll bring you a bowl next time.

Ranger Kelli: Oh my gosh, I love food, and I think that's really cool, because like, it's different talents, you know, you're doing pottery making, and then you're doing food, traditional foods, you know, that is eaten in your, in the home, and how that connects back into your ancestors as well, and then if we, right now, we're at 7:22, which is just very close to sunset, and for the audience, we can kind of look at this board a little bit closer after we're done, but this is my last question for the evening, is what do you want all of us to take away with what we just kind of talked about this evening? What is something you want our audience members to take away back to their home, or coming out to visit Grand Canyon from what we just talked about?

Keia Gasper: Well, like, we're all human beings, and we should, we should all love each other, love everybody, and because nobody has, like, a perfect life, so I just want everyone to go home happy, feeling happy, and knowing that ancestors are proud of who they are, and that you're strong, and just keep going, don't stop, do you, and live your life, live your life to the fullest, like, you got this, and yeah. .

Jaynie Lalio: I just want people to be able to embrace where they come from. Every, every story matters. It's important to love who you are, and just be confident with what, with who you are, because there's no one like you. You're unique, special, every person is different, just, just love yourself is basically what I want people to do from this experience, embrace.

Keia Gasper: One more thing is to make a challenge for yourself, try something new, go out, try something new, find what you see that you may not see yourself doing, like, like me right now, this is crazy, I'm so happy though, but yeah, just try it, because it'll take you bigger and happier places, just like this.

Ranger Kelli: I just want to send my gratitude to both of you, to explaining, and expressing, and then showing a lot of what your title holder means, but also, like, you, what you both expressed to me is just really amazing to know that you're very proud of your culture, you want to keep that going, and keep it going for the next generation. Thank you all for coming this evening, and enjoy sunset.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation. or that of the National Park.

Ranger Jonah: To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca . Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

]]> ]]> Wed, 23 Oct 2024 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/8AA5E291-BFA3-D5D7-A7E9962F3BA2EC44.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-8AA9BE59-0620-C1ED-DA993DDD6D2F686E Season Two Trailer Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service Welcome to season two of Grand Canyon Speaks! We are airing live interviews that park rangers conducted with artists and representatives from the 11 associated tribes of Grand Canyon National Park. This series explores the lives and perspectives of people who call Grand Canyon home. Sit back and enjoy! 87 no trailer 2

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(0:02) I feel like every day begins with land acknowledgement; you know. (0:05) I mean, you're encouraged to rise up every day when the sun comes up to greet the sun. (0:11) We need to go back to our roots, the kind that you eat, you know, and really embrace (0:16) it and start revitalizing that food as medicine. (0:21) All kind of indigenous people accepted the term as two-spirit, but our culture has lived with this since the beginning of time. (0:32) Welcome to season two of Grand Canyon Speaks, where we interview members of the 11 associated tribes who call the Grand Canyon home. This online podcast series brings our in-the-park programming right to your ears and into your homes. This season, we're excited to introduce more stories, more voices, and more lived experiences. Stay tuned. (0:52) You know, when I'm weaving, it's like I'm communicating with my ancestors. (1:00) We come down here to get inspiration, to get the power to take back home. (1:08) We have a strong connection to the Grand Canyon, and Grand Canyon is very important to our (1:15) soul. (1:17) It's important to love who you are. (1:20) There's no one like you. (1:21) You're unique, special, just love yourself.

]]> ]]> Fri, 03 Nov 2023 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/174F1E9B-B5D0-D141-C9E6EB81F2CBB345.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-17519774-034F-1621-4E398890D66418AC Gerald Dawavendewa Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, we talk to the Hopi painter Gerald Dewavendewa. Gerald is a lifelong artist. In this episode, we discuss his beginnings of art on the Hopi reservation, some Hopi traditions and customs, and the cultural influence behind his work. 3092 no full 1 1

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Gerald Dawavendewa: As a Hopi, you're taught that being an individual is one of the last things you are. You're a member of your family. You're a member of your clan. You represent your clan. You represent your community; you represent the religious societies you belong to. You represent your village, and you represent the Hopi as a whole. And then you are an individual.

Ranger Melissa: Hello and welcome! My name is Ranger Melissa.

Ranger Jonah: And my name is Ranger Jonah.

Ranger Melissa: Hey, Jonah. Who did we interview in this episode?

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. We talked to Gerald Dawavendewa. He is a Hopi painter and a really nice guy. It was a ton of fun to talk to him.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah, I love talking with Gerald and hearing about how he uses his experiences as a Hopi astronomer in his artwork.

Ranger Melissa: Absolutely. He was just so knowledgeable, and it was really great listening to him dive into the meaning and the culture behind his work. Turns out a lot of his work is also at the Hopi house. So, if you're in the park, check out his work at the Hopi house. So, without further ado, Gerald.

Gerald Dawavendewa: Umhinsaki! My name is Gerald Dawavendewa. My Hopi name is Lomasohu. So, we actually have two names. As a side note, originally in Hopi culture, you only have one name, and then your family is part of a clan, and currently, there are probably a little over 30 different clans, and I'm a member of the Sun Clan, and then your name is usually associated with that clan. So, my Hopi name, Lomasohu, refers to a star in the constellation in the sky. Dawavendewa is translated as rainbow or halo around the sun. So, there's that association there. There are also other clans the bear, the corn, parrot, badger, and various other clans. And each one has their own history and story. The Hopis we live, what, about 60, 70 miles? Which direction? About that way. The Grand Canyon is a very large part of our history. This is the symbolic emergence of the Hopi people into this world. The Hopi believed that there are three previous worlds. The third world became corrupted, and we wanted to find a way from that world. And so, this is the symbolic entry point. There's a site in the Grand Canyon at the bottom of the Grand Canyon called the Sipapu, which is the emergence place.

Gerald Dawavendewa: And so, the Hopi came through that into this world that we called Túwaqachi. And then each group separated and went into the four directions in order to explore this world and see what was here and what it had to offer. So, each clan has their own stories that differ from others. So as a Hopi person, I don't speak for all the Hopis or have the authority to say that what I say is the defining history of Hopi. So, you'll often find other Hopis that will have other stories or other interpretations, and that stems from their own unique journeys that they took. So, like the sun clan, we traveled with other clans south. And in our migration stories, we traveled all the way down to the end of South America until we reached a large wall of ice, and then we turned back and then came back up this way and eventually came to where we are now, where we see as the Hopi center of the universe. So, all our stories are related to the areas now that we know of as Mexico and the Incas and all these other groups and places, whereas other groups had settled towards the Pacific and others towards what now is Canada and other towards as far as the Mississippi River.

Gerald Dawavendewa: Each clan, when they reached a large body of water, would turn left and then return back. So that's sort of the origin of how we're connected to this site. And we still have pilgrimages yearly from various Hopis who belong to different religious societies who come here to gather among the sacred sites and areas here within the Grand Canyon.

Ranger Jonah:So, Gerald, you are not only a Hopi tribal member, but you're also a painter that takes a lot of inspiration from the Hopi people and the Hopi culture. Now, I understand you grew up in the Hopi Reservation and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what it was like to grow up there and then also if you had some early inspirations, what inspired you to become a painter, to do what you do today.

Gerald Dawavendewa:I grew up in the Hopi village of Mùnqapi, which is associated with Third Mesa. There are three mesas at Hopi. First, Second and Third, which are sort of low, flat-topped mountains and the majority of the villages are built on top of these mesas. My village, Mùnqapi, is not physically on Third Mesa, but there is a village on Third Mesa called Oraibi, which today is considered the oldest continuously inhabited town in the Americas. And so, they found it Mùnqapi. So we owe our allegiance to Oraibi. And so that's where I grew up at. This was at a point where we didn't have electricity, plumbing or any of those modern conveniences TV and things like that. So, it was very much a very isolated area for us. It's a small village. At the time there were probably about less than 600 people who lived at Mùnqapi. It was sort of a transitional point where as I grew up, my grandmother's house was the first house to get electricity. So, I say it's my grandmother's house because Hopi is a matrilineal society, which means in Hopi, all the material wealth, the houses, all the items inside the house, vehicles, now the fields, they all belong to the women and the women take care of them.

Gerald Dawavendewa:So, for the men, we are in charge of the religious societies and making sure that the ceremonies are performed correctly throughout the year. And so, when a woman marries a man, in which she proposes not the man, she will have a special bread called piki, and she will make that and present it on a Hopi tray. And if he accepts that tray of piki bread, then he has accepted her proposal in marriage. The wedding ceremony takes some time to do it's usually tied in with the ceremony year, but at the end the husband will move to her village and build her a house. And so, she's in charge of that, and she takes care of that as well as make sure the fields are cared for as well. As Hopi men and family members, we ask permission from the head of the household to be allowed to grow the corn and crops in the field. And so, when we grow the corns and crop, we own the plants, or we are responsible for the plants when they are grown. So, who do you think owns it when it's harvested? The women own the plants when they're harvested and they can do whatever they want with it, but often they'll keep it and make sure that the family... So, in Hopi, not necessarily status, but the success of a home is the ability to feed the family.

Gerald Dawavendewa:And in fact, my grandmother was very proud of the fact that if anyone came by, even to ask for directions, she would insist that they sat down and ate first, and then after they finished eating, then she would ask, "why did you come here?" And so, she was very proud of the fact that no matter who came by, she was able to feed them. And that was something that she was very proud of. And so, I grew up in that area, and to me, as an artist, there's not a real profession out there in Hopi. Nobody says, oh, that's the artist of the village, or he's the best artist. I grew up with art. Everyone did art. My grandmother made baskets. My grandfather made crafts and arts that were related to the religious societies because they require certain items and objects for these ceremonies. I had other uncles and cousins who carved Katsina dolls and other family women who made pottery. And so, I grew up not knowing anybody who did not know how to do some sort of craft. So, it wasn't unusual, and it didn't seem out of place. And so, I was inspired by a lot of people there.

Gerald Dawavendewa: And in Hopi, people don't tell you, oh, you need to know how to carve, or you need to know how to draw. If you have an interest in it and they see that you have an interest, they may say, oh, here, try this carving. Here, I'll give you a piece of wood and why don't you whittle on it and see if you like that. If that's something you like or something else. So, there's never that insistence that, oh, you're going to be this and sort of try to fit you to that mold. And so, it was something I grew up with, and it was something that I enjoyed because it was a way for me to express myself in Hopi by capturing a lot of the day-to-day things. And apparently, I spent too much time on it.

Ranger Jonah: It happens to the best of us.

Gerald Dawavendewa: I actually ended up flunking first grade. I had to take it over twice, and my report card said: he's a very bright and promising student, but all he does is draw, and we feel that he could spend another additional year at this level. So, I ended up having to take first grade twice.

Gerald Dawavendewa: So, that sort of started my career. So, I've been sort of drawing all my life. And of course, my first inspirations were my grandmother and my grandfather. Watching them make things and later on being introduced to a lot of things from my aunts and uncles. And then, of course, as I traveled around the village because there are ceremonies that we do that are taken to other villages. So I get to meet other Hopis in other homes, and of course, you meet other artists. And I was fortunate in, I guess, the history of Hopi in that we were at a transitional point because my grandfather and his father in Hopi, the majority of the art was done for religious reasons. It was not made for sale. It was not made as fine art. It was made because it needed to be made for the ceremonies. Even my grandmother's baskets, those were baskets that had practical uses. There were sifter baskets. There were baskets used to carry items. There were baskets to give away as a custom. And so, everything made had a purpose and a reason that fit within Hopi culture. So, there was no such thing as I'm expressing myself or I really want to talk about my angst through this painting.

Gerald Dawavendewa: It was basically part of my father's generation and then, of course, my generation that you begin to have artists. You did have some who were famous in the past, like Nampeyo, who was a very famous potter, but her art was the pots she made. The majority were used for mixing bowls, for cooking bowls. And of course, the early tourists, especially from here, you had the Fred Harvey Company who would send out tourists to Hopi, and they discovered the pottery, and they wanted and Nampeyo became very famous. And one of the side notes for that was Nampeyo noticed that people paid more for her pots because she was touted as the famous Hopi potter. And so, she encouraged other Hopi women to bring their pots, and she would sign them because she wanted them to have... She wasn't trying to cheat people. But in Hopi, you want to be part of the community. You want to help the community rise together. And so, she signed their pottery so they could get just as much money that hers got. So, there are a lot of pots out there that she never made, but they have her name on it.

Gerald Dawavendewa: And she's actually one of the earlier Hopis that signed her work because back then, nobody signed their work. You made an item and it kind of just rotated into the culture. There are these wicker plaques that were given to the young girls during a ceremony called Powamuya. And the girls kind of used it almost like a currency exchange. As they got older, if somebody did a good deed for them or helped them out or something, they would give that basket to that person, to that Hopi person, and then down the line, that person might eventually give it to somebody else. And so, it wasn't unusual that one of my nieces would get a basket and, of course, she would give it out maybe a year later. And then five or six years later it shows up again because somebody did a nice thing and oh, I remember that basket. That used to be your basket when you were little. But that's what started it. You begin having these Hopis like Fred Kabotie who did the murals in the watchtower, you had people saying, oh, you need to sign your name. It needs to be identified. And so that didn't occur until the 50s or 60s and then that's when you begin seeing Hopis who were taught silversmithing after World War II as an occupation.

Gerald Dawavendewa: Some of them started signing, not all of them, but some of them begin signing their names. And so that began what we would, I guess, consider fine art or art for art's sake in a sense. But it still was grounded in traditional designs. Everything was very in that design. And that's what I grew up being inspired by. And then of course, later on for me, finally, there was a young group of men who, they're much older than me now, but called Artists Hopi. And they decided to really explore or push the boundaries of what Hopi art could do. So, they went through cubism and abstraction and all these other types of art forms that didn't exist in Hopi and even tried political artwork and other things. But it would all have to do with Hopi. And they inspired me because their work was so different from everything else. And so that kind of led me to feel that this was something that I could do. And so, after I graduated from high school, I eventually went to the University of Arizona in Tucson.

Ranger Jonah: So, it worked out after first grade. It's all easier from there! (Laughter)

Gerald Dawavendewa: I was basically like: I'll show you now! So, I got a degree in what was a major in graphic design and fine art. But I eventually started working in the museum field, using my graphic design. For me, the high point was I helped with graphics and did Hopi consultation for the Hopi section of an exhibit called The Paths of Life, which was a 10,000 square foot exhibit. And I invited my grandfather to come down to look at what I had done. And so, after he had seen everything, he turned to me and told me, in Hopi, "this is something worth doing." So, in Hopi culture, you don't hear a lot of praise, a lot of stuff you do, you're expected to do it. And so, to have my grandfather tell me that it was something worth doing was just the greatest compliment I could ever receive. I don't think I touched the ground for a week or so from that. And that sort of continued leading my visions. One of the challenges or one of the things that I've, I guess in a sense, placed upon myself is as a Hopi, you're taught that being an individual is one of the last things you are.

Gerald Dawavendewa: You're a member of your family, you're a member of your clan. You represent your clan, you represent your community, you represent the religious societies you belong to. You represent your village, and you represent the Hopi as a whole. And then you are an individual. And so that's the last thing. You're always taught to think about what you are doing. How does that reflect on everything else? And so, I continue to do that now in my artwork. When I do my artwork, I always am reminded about how other Hopis or how my community is going to feel about this. How are other people going to feel about the reflection of what I am showing of Hopi to them. For the most part, I do not do individual personal artwork. I'm not going to talk about maybe something that happened in my personal life or that may be considered positive or negative and express it through the art medium. But what I do is to try to instill a sense of pride towards my art. That was something that my grandfather had taught me. He constantly reminded me that our culture has a lot of great accomplishments and a lot of great knowledge and wisdom that we've gathered over literally thousands of years. That we are not simply Indians or what other people may think of us because we did not invent the aircraft or the computer.

Gerald Dawavendewa: But we have other accomplishments. And those accomplishments were made in this type of environment, in the desert. Our priority was not to leap ahead in technology, but our aim was to integrate ourselves within our environment and survive within a very harsh desert area that has very little rainfall. So, to do that, we've genetically manipulated corn and other plants to grow in a very dry desert. We've developed our own agricultural system called dry farming. And we've done other things like kept track of the movement of the suns and the planets and the moon. This is very important to us because we have very short growing seasons. We need to understand very specifically how the year goes, when it rains and when it snows and other aspects, because literally our life is dependent on it. We need to know when to grow our corn, when to grow the second crop, when to harvest and other items. We have a high level of looking out through astronomy. We see it more in a practical sense rather than a mythical or a spiritual sense. We do imply that to it, but we understand the solstices and the equinoxes and the lunar levels and things like that because that's important to us as well.

Gerald Dawavendewa: And so, he instilled in me that pride that we do have our own accomplishments and that's why we've survived for so long and we continue to survive and still try to maintain those ideas. We're considered one of the most traditional indigenous groups in the Americas. And we've been able to maintain that because we're very careful about what we want to bring into our culture. And so, I try to reflect that through my art and try to remind other people that this is a very dynamic and very successful culture that I hope that continues to continue on and survive.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. And for those that don't know, as we talk about his art, Gerald is a part of our cultural demonstration program. So, if you come into the Watchtower tomorrow between nine and four, you can actually see a lot of his art up close and personal. And I know you brought some here today, so we're going to talk about that in a little bit. But first I just kind of wanted to dig in more into the process of actually making art. How does that process go for you? Do you see the whole thing before you start? Do you say, I want to start with these colors and then we'll see where it goes from there? Or is there some other way that that transpires?

Gerald Dawavendewa: You see a lot of this imagery, like with Katsina dances. We have these dances where we have these spiritual beings called Katsinam that appear at the villages, and they perform ceremonies and rituals. They're very colorful. They have these elaborate dances and songs and those inspire me as well. And I've been given the opportunity to speak some to the elders and they talk about different aspects. And just having heard them, it creates that imagery in my mind that I want to capture in an art form. Or there's Katsinas that you want to carve and depict them in the wooden form. If you've seen these around in the shops or like the Hopi shop or down there. They're these wooden carved images of these spiritual beings and they represent different elements of Hopi culture. They represent animal life that we depend on, elements of the cosmos and even historical events. There's a historical event where one of the villages was attacked, and one of the young women was having her hair done. And it's an elaborate hairdo. I'm sure you've seen Star Wars, Princess Leia. They were inspired by the Hopi hairdo. It's this large swirl hairdo actually represents a squash blossom, which represents the ability to give life.

Gerald Dawavendewa: And so, this young woman was having her hair done that way, and she had one up, and her mother was still combing out her hair on the other side when the village was attacked. And rather than run with all the other women and elderly and children, she grabbed her brother's bow and arrow and rushed out and defended the village successfully. And so, when she passed from this world, she became a Katsina spirit. And now that Katsina shows up to remind us about the strength that she had and the role of women in Hopi culture. There's that aspect. So, when you carve a piece of wood like that, for me, it's almost like a discovery, because you always hear that from a lot of artists, like a lot of carvers or a lot of people who do stone. They say, I'm just chipping away what's not supposed to be there. That figure is already in the stone. And I kind of feel the same way because the other thing is about the wood. It's not perfect. Sometimes it has cracks in it, sometimes it has knots in it and stuff. There are times when you carve it, you have to remove things because you know they're going to break off or you know it's going to split more that way. And in a way, it almost dictates what's going to come out. Sometimes the wood is, I guess, in a sense, perfect. And you can say, oh, I'm going to make a mudhead, or I'm going to make a snow Katsina. And other times it's just like, oh, I got to get rid of this, and I get rid of that. And then suddenly it's like, oh, it's going to be a bear Katsina. And I wasn't planning that, but it came out that way. And so there's that kind of excitement, too, that sometimes you plan. I'm going to draw or create this specific thing, and other times it's like even I don't know what it's going to become. I have to sort of share it with the elements, the object or the material I'm using. Because even the canvas or the paper or the stone or the rock or whatever I'm using, it has its own imperfections or perfections. And they do guide the creation of the artwork sometimes, even if you're not planning to go in that direction. And so that's sort of that type of thing. One of the things that I guess I'm known for, or what people seem to comment about, is that my work is very bright, and I think they're not used to seeing work with that much color.

Gerald Dawavendewa: But for me, when you see the Katsinas, what they wear with the bright parrot feathers, the pure white cotton kilts, and the red and green embroidery. It's a very colorful imagery, and I try to capture that in my artwork. But it's an ongoing process, and I enjoy it because sometimes you don't always know what you're going to get, even though you kind of try to plan for it.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. And we also have a Hopi Katsina carver this week. So, if you come to the Watchtower tomorrow, you will also be able to see what he's talking about with these wood sort of figurines.

Gerald Dawavendewa: Yeah. And what's unusual that, if you notice, is that even though Hopi we all carve Katsinas, we all paint Hopi, or they do different baskets and stuff, they each have their own very unique style and how they go about doing that, because there are literally hundreds of Hopi carvers. But you can tell, especially some of the ones that are more prolific, exactly. Oh, that's so and so, or, oh, I know who made this just by looking at it, because they have such a distinct style, and yet they're all coming from the same point. They could all make the same bear Katsina, and they would all be different. But it's still the bear Katsina.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. So perhaps we could bring out one of your pieces of work and talk about it a little bit. I know it's a little windy, so I could help hold it.

Gerald Dawavendewa: This is, I guess, an enlarged version of the original. I did a series of drawings, probably more than 20 of these images, and they're all drawn with ink and copper paint. They're all done on handmade Nepal paper. And this is a series there's actually a book that I eventually published, and it depicts, like, as I was saying earlier, some of the understanding the Hopis have about astronomy and how we interpret the sky. This particular design is the lunar eclipse. So, at the top, I have the sun with the face, and in the middle I have the Earth with all the life elements in it. And then below that, in the copper paint, is the Moon. So as the sun is above, I have the Earth moving in front of the sun, casting its shadow against the Moon, creating what people call like a blood or a red moon. So, we're familiar with that celestial event. And in Hopi, especially during the prehistoric times, we have Hopis who are specifically are called Sun Watchers. One of their roles is to track not only the sun's movement, but the Moon's movement as well, and maintain where the sun rises, and the moon rises and lowers. And those are used to determine various ceremonies and rituals throughout the Hopi year. And so, we're able to interpret it completely, also entirely in Hopi symbolism. Hopi has a huge collection of symbols that it uses. And in fact, I could draw a cloud, snow cloud, rain cloud, sprinkling, thundercloud, billowing cloud, a cloud about to rain. I could do a range of different weather elements because they're so important in Hopi that we've developed a lot of icons to determine what each part represents, or each element represents. It's a rich history of design.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. So, to finish up our discussion about this piece of work, does anybody have any questions? All right, we'll move to the next one.

Gerald Dawavendewa: Well, what we do is various Sun Watchers who are located at different villages, they have one particular place that they will always stand at, and they'll either use a large geological feature, like a butte or even San Francisco Peaks as a marker, or they'll have rocks close by, and they'll track using those as points of reference. So, if you watch the sunset, like out here, and if a Hopi came here and was able to come here every day, he might use this row of rocks here, and he'll put marks into it or designs representing different aspects of the sun rising or the Moon rising. And once you do that, over literally several years and sometimes several decades, you start noticing a pattern within that. And that way you start being able to predict when things equinoxes, solstices, eclipses, and other phenomena start occurring, and you're able to plan for them, and even when certain stars appear in the sky. So, like, the women have a social dance that's translated as loosely the basket dance, and that occurs when the three stars of Orion appear. But in Hopi, we see those as three maidens from the basket dance ceremony. When they appear closest down towards the Earth, that's when that ceremony begins. And so even the position of the stars in the sky either determine a ceremony or it'll tell you when something is going to occur. So, we keep track of that as well. This one, if you're familiar, at Flagstaff, the San Francisco Peaks in Hopi, we believe that that's the home of some of the Katsina spirits. They live there. And so, this painting depicts the Katsina spirits upon the San Francisco Peaks. And in Hopi, these spiritual beings not only perform ceremonies and rituals, but they remind the Hopi how to live a proper life. There are over 400 different personalities, and each one has their own history, their own type of personalities, how they dress, what songs they sing, and what rituals they do. And we have an entire religious society that's responsible for that. And that's one of the reasons why Hopi has been able to maintain its traditions. It's not like some other tribes where you maybe have one religious person who is in charge of maybe perhaps the knowledge of medicinal, what medicines or what plants help you heal. And they may have one or two apprentices, but if he dies or those apprentices choose not to follow that, then that line ends. In Hopi culture, it's like going to college. We all specialize in different parts of the Hopi culture. There is a group that takes care of the Katsinas, which my grandfather did. And so, his entire lifetime role was to understand all these Katsinas. So, he never understood all 400, but he was pretty up there compared to me. That's their whole role. There are other societies that specialize in other aspects of Hopi culture, and that's just that part they understand. And that's how we're able to maintain our tradition so strongly, because it's not kept by just one person, it's kept by a whole group. And they're all taught all that information together. So even if one or two of them passes from an accident or something not expected, it doesn't die with them. There's a whole society that maintains that knowledge. And so, I have here a lot of different Katsinas that are coming here. I have a morning Katsina, a Katsina Mana, a Long Hair, and each one has their own personality. The Long Hair is known for this wonderful melodic song that it sings, and it brings showers, light showers when it sings. Whereas this tall one, the Shalako, which actually rises about 15ft tall. In real life, he rarely appears because he's known for causing floods. There's also a female that comes with him, so they're not often asked to come unless there's a real drought because they're known for unpredictable weather. And then there are other ones. In the middle with the big feathers, that is Crow mother or Angwusnasomtaka. And she comes during a ceremony dressed in her bridal outfit, because the story is that she had just gotten married. This was a time when the Hopis were having a hard time, their crops were not successful. As she was crossing Hopi, she heard the Hopi's prayers for help. And so, she immediately headed to the village, and she appeared as the sun rose, still wearing her bridal gown, followed by all these other Katsina spirits, bringing fresh green bean sprouts and other foods to give to the Hopis so they could survive. They also brought gifts to the children. And that ceremony still occurs every year. And then we have others. A warrior Katsina, and then we have Eototo and Aholi, they're sort of called the lieutenant and his assistant. They're involved in the Soyal ceremony. Also, when the equinox occurs, they come and perform a ceremony there to help the sun begin its longer or shorter days. So, they all have their own purposes. There's even a Katsina that shows up to remind us to clean out the springs that we depend on. So, there's even some practical aspects to it, and it's all integrated into Hopi culture. And so, I depicted that, the last one at the top, this is a Katsina that represents the power and maintains the balance of the universe. So, I have him reaching out and throwing the stars into the sky. He's a very powerful individual. When he comes to the villages, all the other Katsinas stay away from him because of his energy. So, he's one kiva or one building behind all the other Katsinas. They will not go near him. He's very deliberate. For me, everything he does is perfect. Every step he takes is very deliberate and slow and he speaks very quietly. He has a very quiet song. But I'm always amazed at his actions when he's there because everything he does, he uses the minimalist of energy and everything is deliberate. I've never seen any other Katsina like that. I've always been impressed by that.

Ranger Jonah: Does anybody have any questions that they want to ask about this particular piece?

Audience Member: I am an audience member and I have a question. The knowledge that you're referring to, is that written down or mainly just spread via word of mouth or how does that work?

Gerald Dawavendewa: It's mostly word of mouth. I mean, the society I belong to. . . there's one called like the One Horn and Two Horn Society. Their knowledge is sacred to them. So even though we're fellow Hopis, since I'm not a member of that society, he's not going to tell me what they do and I'm not going to tell him what I do. I mean, there is some information that we will give each other and there is some information we will give to the general public as a whole, but we're not going to tell anyone the most sacred or the greater knowledge in Hopi. We believe that those have to be earned. You have to go through the stages. You have to be initiated. You have to be a part of this. You have to gain this knowledge or wisdom or other aspects as you go through life. And therefore, as you get to a certain point, then you are eligible to acquire that knowledge. A lot of stuff. So, basically, a lot of the information I talk about, mostly it's what a young child would be told because they're not initiated then. And then when you get initiated, then you're given the opportunity to learn even more knowledge as you get older. We don't write that down. There is stuff that we do allow out, but to us it's very rudimentary. It's not the core of our beliefs or our religion.

Ranger Jonah: So, being a professional artist, you have to travel, or you do travel with your art around to art shows. So, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what an art show is like and maybe being here at Grand Canyon doing the cultural demonstration program. How that's different? How that's similar? What you maybe like or dislike about being out here at Grand Canyon and what it's like to be an artist at these art shows.

Gerald Dawavendewa: It's kind of a challenge in a way, because when I went down to the University of Arizona, I, of course, did my art and wanted to make a living off it. And as you've seen, some of my art, like the first one, it's very abstract. It's a lot of Hopi symbolism. And so, there are not a lot of galleries or a lot of shops that specialize just in Indigenous art. So, I would take it to other galleries that just showed all sorts of art, and they say, well, this is Indian. You need to take this to an Indian shop. And so, I take it to the Indian shop and they're like, this is too abstract for us. You should take it to the galleries. Because a lot of collectors or customers or people, they've kind of have this specific expectation that when you say Indian art, what comes to mind? And a lot of it tends to be art that is sort of from the 1960s or 50s on back. They have an idea that Indian art has to incorporate maybe feathers or dull colors or leather work and these certain types of things. And to them, that's Indian art. And so, if you come up with a hand-blown glass vase, which we have a Hopi artist, he was the first one to do that. He had a hard time because that's not Hopi art because Hopis don't blow glass. And so there's that challenge that a lot of galleries or a lot of collectors will tend to pigeonhole Indigenous art. And of course, there are other collectors who they know what the art is and they go after it. They find specific artists who make styles that they like. But it's a real challenge because a lot of Native art people tend to want a certain style or a certain imagery. And if you try to go outside that, then you get very few people who are interested in buying it. And so that's always a challenge. So, early on, I've just recently really stopped doing it. But there are art shows or art fairs specifically just for Indigenous artists. The Heard Museum in Phoenix has one. There's a very famous one in Santa Fe in August where it's just all Native art. And so when you go there, all the artists there are Native.

Gerald Dawavendewa: They're all Indigenous, and they come from all different tribes or nations around the country. And so that's what I used to do. And it's a challenge when you want to do it as your full-time employment, because you have to pay a fee sometimes half a year in advance. So, it's like you're throwing all this money in the air, but you're not going to see a return for six months. And then, of course, you have to build up your inventory in art. You got to book your hotel. You got to make sure your car is in good shape. You load in all your items and everything, and you drive there and make sure you get fed. And then you sit at your booth, and when you sit there, you have this imaginary money level saying, okay, it cost me $600 to enter the show. The hotel cost me this much, I spent this much for gas, I ate this much food. I have to make this much money just to break even. And then once I reach that, then it's profit. And then when the show is over, you go home and you start the whole thing over again, and you have to sign up and pay these fees, like I said, months in advance.

Gerald Dawavendewa: And then you go home, you rebuild your inventory, you start drawing more or carving or whatever you do, and then you go to the next show. And sometimes then you go to the Hopi show in Flagstaff. And then one year, I went to the Cherokee show in Tulsa. I have friends and family who'll go to shows on the East Coast. They'll go to shows up in Alaska, they'll go to shows in California and Washington state, and they'll be driving all over the place, and a lot of them drive because you can't haul a lot of that stuff on an airplane. So, it's a life. I had a cousin, he did stone carving, which was very heavy. He later switched to jewelry, which was a lot easier to carry. But one of the funny things for me when he was doing stone carving is he priced all his artwork based on how tall it was. So, if he had a carving that was eleven inches tall, it was $1,100, and if it was eight inches tall, it was $800. But he eventually switched to jewelry. But it's a full-time thing.

Gerald Dawavendewa: And if you're not at the show, you're at home working all the time, trying to get that inventory up. And if you're lucky, you get collectors who love your work and only your work, and so they constantly buy just yours. And there have been Hopi potters who show up at the art shows, and you open up at 09:00a.m., and they're done by 9:30. They've sold everything they've had because their work is so popular. I have a cousin who does very elaborate Katsina dolls, and he carves them in one piece. He doesn't add anything to it. Everything on there, the feathers hanging out and the jewelry hanging from the neck or the rattles. Everything is carved from one single piece of wood, and he attaches nothing to it. And his work goes for 10, $15,000. And he has collectors who are willing to pay that price because of the quality of the work he does. And now he's able to just stay home and carve, because now he has collectors who just order from him and say, I want this. And so, he doesn't have to go to the shows anymore. He just stays home and carves.

Gerald Dawavendewa: So, he's one of those who is a successful one, but for a lot of us it's a constant grind and it gets tiring after a while. Eventually for me, I was fortunate enough that I was able to find a way where I reproduced a lot of my art as prints and other items and then I wholesale them to various museums and gift shops. Like the Hopi shop here carries some of my items and so I'm able to do that and stay home and not have to travel all over the place. It's a challenge. It's a rarely unique style of selling art that I don't think you see that a lot with a lot of other different artists who are not indigenous. With such a constant you're going here, here, here, coming back, it's a route, it's almost like circus kind of thing. So yes, it was a challenge.

Ranger Jonah: We have unfortunately reached that time about 15 minutes before the sun sets. So, I want to ask one last question, Gerald. If you were to give everybody who came here tonight one sort of central takeaway or one thing that you wanted them to remember about tonight, what would that be?

Gerald Dawavendewa: That's a good question. Well, as an artist, I guess I just want you to really look at individual native artists and really take the time to appreciate that or look at the art. We've been doing this for a long time. And my fellow artists who does the carvings. Don't be afraid to ask questions about the art and what he makes or its inspiration or even just appreciating and understanding it. Because a lot of this art is deeply rooted into our culture, and it represents a lot of things that are important to us and mean a great deal of what represents us as a cultural group and as a people. And we're very proud to create that and to show it to other people. And we hope that you enjoy it as well. So, thank you very much for taking your time to stop here and listen to me.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.NPS.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the eleven associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 03 Nov 2023 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/17623950-AC48-4BBB-2DCE8C38C5228056.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-177CBD0C-EDE1-04D3-019CC169B44D9A79 Noreen Simplicio Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, we talk to the traditional Zuni potter Noreen Simplicio. A strong advocate for youth empowerment, Noreen discusses the Zuni connection to Grand Canyon, her story of learning traditional pottery, and the value of respecting the landscape. 2273 no full 2 1

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Noreen Simplicio: It's all going to get taken away. Well, that hasn't happened. I'm still creating. So, Grandma, I'm sorry, but I think you were wrong at that.

Ranger Jonah: Hello, and welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. My name is Ranger Jonah.

Ranger Melissa: And I'm Ranger Melissa.

Ranger Jonah: So, Melissa, could you tell us a little bit about this episode?

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. Our coworker Kelly interviewed Noreen Simplicio, who's a Zuni potter, on a very, very windy evening. What's great about Noreen's time with us here at the Canyon was seeing her love of sharing her pottery process with others, and especially the youth.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. You know what, I would have never realized the role of manure in pottery without this interview.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. Hopefully everyone will also learn that and enjoy this recording. So, without further ado, Noreen.

Noreen Simplicio: First of all, before I introduce myself, I wanted to thank the National Park Service, Kelli and Dan, for continuing the demonstration program, because the last time I was here was back in April of 2016. So that was the last time I was here. But so happy to be back here. And I'll talk more about that, but yes. My name is Noreen Simplicio. I'm from Zuni Pueblo. I've been a potter for about 40 years. And this place is very special to us, our tribe, and along with the other eleven affiliated tribes. Zuni history tells us that there's a place here, north from here, called Ribbon Falls. The way you say it in Zuni is Chimik'yana'kya Deya' is a place of emergence. Yeah. Very beautiful place. And that's why this place is very special to us, because this is the place where our ancestors emerged from the fourth underworld. So, I myself never really knew where we came from or why we settled in Zuni. But once we came out from this area, our people, well, there was a purpose for us coming out from the fourth underworld. Our purpose was Father Sun wanted somebody to be doing the offerings, a prayer stick, food, and just prayers, the offerings to give the people blessings.

Noreen Simplicio: So that's why we came out from the Earth. And once our people came out from the Earth, they went looking for the Zuni, which is now called the Middle Place. So, they made their journey towards the Zuni area. And of course, that story is pretty true, because along the area, coming here or going that way to Zuni, there's places of settlement that our people settled in. So the way they found the Middle Place was they used a water strider. The water strider spread out its legs, and it touched all the oceans in the world. And once it stood there like this, the middle of his heart is where the Middle place is. Now in Zuni. So, when I was growing up, I would ask Grandma, like, why are we here? Why did we settle here? And that's the story behind it. And I didn't know this until sometime between maybe 2017, when I was asked to work at a substance abuse program. I worked at a recovery program to teach the recoveries. I guess through my clay and through the work that I do it was therapy for the recovering people. So, once we worked with them about teaching about the Zuni culture, language, prayers, whatever, anything and everything about Zuni. We taught for, like, six weeks. Then we did a journey to Ribbon Falls, actually hiking down Bright Angel Trail and North Kaibab Trail. Like actually walking to this Ribbon Falls place. So, I had an opportunity to do it twice, and I'm glad I did. And I survived. Yes.

Ranger Kelli: Do you want to tell everybody where Zuni is and how far it is from here?

Noreen Simplicio: Okay, if any of you know where Gallup, New Mexico is, anybody know where Gallup, New Mexico is? Okay. We're like, what southwest? Like 40 miles southwest of there. So, we live on a reservation. I don't quite know how big our reservation is. Maybe 10,000, maybe more. But that's where I'm from, and that's where actually I learned my craft. I wish I could say a grandma taught me or a grandpa taught my work, what I do now. But I've been a potter for 40 years, and I learned at the high school, but I didn't learn from a Zuni person. I learned from another pueblo, an Acoma person, that was my instructor. So, I took the classes in high school, and from there I just kind of developed and perfected my techniques as I went through my years. But I consider myself a traditional contemporary potter. I use traditional techniques. Contemporary techniques. It wasn't until this past July there was another Hopi person, Bobby Silas, that was teaching a traditional class at our college in Zuni. So, I said, well, I need to take this class, because what he was going to teach was the old techniques.

Noreen Simplicio: So, I took the class, and when I first showed up in the classroom, everybody was like, what are you doing here? You're already a master. And then I said, well, I need to learn. It's always good to learn other people's way of teaching and learning different techniques. So, one of the requirements...I mastered everything. I mastered the building; I mastered the designing. The hardest thing for me was using yucca, the plant. Because that's what our ancestors used a long time ago. They use yucca brushes to paint their pots. That's why I brought this pot with me, because this is my first pot that has been done the old, old, styled way. So, I struggled a lot using the yucca, but I managed to master it.

Ranger Kelli: How long did it take you to do that?

Noreen Simplicio: It took a while because it took me a long time to actually get the feel, the feel of the yucca, because for like 35, 40 years, I've always been using paintbrushes, never yucca, because I could never do it when I was younger. So, it was my destiny. It was my like; I need to perfect this. So, I did. That's why I brought this pot with me.

Ranger Kelli: That's beautiful. And I know there are so many people who are coming today to your table, and they wanted to know what different of your pieces represent, especially the frogs. Oh, my gosh. The kids love your work. And were drawn to your frog pottery.

Noreen Simplicio: Yeah. And I brought one with me. After the session is over, you can come take a look. But everything, all the pigments that I use, I go up in the mountains and dig my own clays. Well, I actually don't do the digging. I have my boyfriend, and I bring a lot of men with me because the place where I dig the clays is pretty rugged. You have to go down in the bottom of the mountain there and dig it and then hike it back up. So, it's a workout. So, they help me collect my clays, but they're natural pigments. One of the things that was taught to me by my instructor was always respect the Earth, because the clay is very valuable. And before I actually start digging, there's always prayer involved. There's always offerings of cornmeal and food before you actually start digging. And you're digging when the clay comes out, plentiful because you literally have to dig to get to the clay. So, it's coming out plentiful and then after a while, it kind of stops coming out. That kind of tells you that's all you can have for now.

Noreen Simplicio: When I teach, like youth or children, whatever, I try to instill this in them, that the clay is very valuable, and if you treat it right and if you create from your heart; [Zuni phrase] I would say in Zuni. If you create from your heart, you'll develop or create beautiful things. So that's one of the important things that I like to talk about, especially to the young people, that when I teach, we have to respect the Earth, the clays and each other. This is what I share with the youth because I think it's important.

Ranger Kelli: When you get the clay, do you pick it out during different seasons, or do you just do it whenever?

Noreen Simplicio: Well, I can say: don't go digging clay when the snakes are out.

Noreen Simplicio: So usually in the summertime, we don't really do it. I wanted to go up there before it got really hot and before the snakes came out. So, I would probably have to go make a trip maybe sometime late August, September, when the snakes go back in because it's very rocky and they live in those rock areas. I am kind of scared of snakes.

Ranger Kelli: I second that. And I'm a park ranger out here. Definitely, because I know it was really great to hear about some of the- do you want to tell us about the frogs? Noreen Simplicio: Yeah, the frogs. The frogs. Like, I was telling Kelli the other day that I don't really know where some of my ideas come from. It just happens. Like, when I'm creating something, I don't have a plan. I don't have anything sketched out. It just happens. And I think that's the gifts that I have. I remember when I was a young girl, about maybe five or six, I remember always playing with mud. I used to make, like, little mud pots all the time. So, when I went to high school and I found out there was a class, pottery class, of course I took it, and I stayed in it all throughout my high school years, and I perfected it, and I was just a natural at it. And then after I graduated, I met up with another Acoma woman that was a potter, and she taught me marketing, and she said, you need to do this. So, I did, and I've been making pots ever since. And the frog pots, like I said, I don't know where I got my idea for the frog pots, but I do them in many different ways. If you're Zuni, you belong to some sort of clan. I'm not a frog, but I love doing frogs, so I'm a badger and an eagle, so I should be doing badgers and eagles, but I don't know how to make those, so I don't do them.

Noreen Simplicio: But frog's representation is what I would say in Zuni, [Zuni phrase]. This means a prayer for rain or water. Whenever there's water, there's life. So, I think that's why I do frogs a lot. And one of the other things that I want to really say is that within the 40 years, I mean, I've been everywhere. Well, not everywhere, but I've been at most museums and places where they have markets. I sell out my frogs. People come to my table. I always get a smile. I always make people happy with my frogs. So, I said, if I had collected $1 within the 40 years, I would be living high and mighty.

Ranger Kelli: Yeah, and that's exactly what I've been seeing the past few days that you've been here. And of course, when I went up to your table, I was like… the frogs are so beautiful. The kids were drawn to it. But you've been doing this for 40 years. I think that's a long time. Do you get tired of doing it?

Noreen Simplicio: No, because my whole life as a potter, there's never a day that I don't create. If I don't create, I don't feel good.

Ranger Kelli: Do you have other hobbies besides pottery?

Noreen Simplicio: Well, I should, but I work too much. But I like hiking. I like exercising, taking care of me. I know those are, like, crazy hobbies, but that's what I love, teaching. I love teaching my art. I love sharing my art. As a matter of fact, there's a program in Zuni. It's a youth program they've been up and running for a while now, and it's called the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program. So, I do summer camps and I teach children. I've taught in the high school. I even came here in, I think, a later part of April, to teach. Debbie, my friend, she teaches at the Grand Canyon High School, and I was invited by Debbie and the staff there to come out to the Grand Canyon High School to teach for a week. It was a blast. I mean I hadn't taught for a while, but we had such a great time. We had a showing on Friday night with what the kids created. So, it was a beautiful event, and I was really honored to be here to teach only because, like I said, the Grand Canyon is a very special place for Zuni people. And my boyfriend just said, this is our second home.

Ranger Kelli: Being here at Grand Canyon, I know you teach the Grand Canyon Kid's school, which is really important for indigenous youth to reconnect to the culture here, but also be proud of who they are. How long have you been working with the kids? Like kids in Zuni?

Noreen Simplicio: Well, actually, when my son was fourth grade in the elementary school, that's where I first got my first pottery teaching job, because the teacher asked me to. It was kind of like a parent talent day or something. So, I went in and took my clay and had the kids play with it and make things out of it. So that was actually my first but don't ask me how long ago that was because I don't remember. But anyway, so ever since then, when I wanted to go into the school, my grandma would always say, why are you teaching other kids? Why are you sharing your talent? I know that sounds so negative, but whatever talent you have, our elders always say that if you share your talent and you teach somebody, it's all going to get taken away. Well, that hasn't happened. I'm still creating. So, grandma, I'm sorry, but I think you were wrong at that.

Ranger Kelli: And what is your favorite part of making the pottery?

Noreen Simplicio: I think my frogs.

Ranger Kelli: The frogs?

Noreen Simplicio: Yeah. Because I do a pot that looks similar to this one. The frogs are peeking over, and then I also have another roll of frogs, kind of like pulling them out of the pot. And that kind of goes with the emergence story, because in the emergence story, our people lived in the fourth underworld, and they had to go through different layers to get to the top of the earth. And the way the history goes, they used different types of trees to get to the top. So, it's kind of like the Jack and the Beanstalk story. So, I think our tribe is the one that created that story. That's what I want to believe anyway.

Ranger Kelli: Yeah. And then have any of the kids that you taught, are you mentors to them today?

Noreen Simplicio: Well, I've not really made connections with them after teaching, but I always have an open door. Like, I give them my number, and I said, if you ever need anything, you need material, you need resources, you need how to do this and that, I'm always there. Ranger Kelli: Yeah. Today I did see some kids who just went up to her table, and she just gave them clay and taught them how to start making clay. And I think she's really great with our youth in this area. She's a great teacher.

Noreen Simplicio: Yeah. I love to teach anybody that wants to learn. So, I do sometimes open my studio at home and offer some workshops. Maybe if you ever want to come to Zuni and stay in Zuni and learn from me for a couple of days, you're more than welcome to do that. Ranger Kelli: And that's a lot of the questions I get from visitors. They want to visit a lot of the tribes out in Zuni, but I'm not Zuni, so is there a place where they can go to learn more about the Zuni tribe or people in that area? Noreen Simplicio: Well, we do have a visitor center, and then they have, like, tour guides, paid tour guides in Zuni, and then we have a bed and breakfast place there. Or you can come to me, and I'll take you to our mountain.

Ranger Kelli: When you were growing up, you told me that a lot of the connection here at Grand Canyon, it didn't really connect till later on.

Noreen Simplicio: Yes.

Ranger Kelli: And is some of the work from Grand Canyon in your pottery? I know you said the frog is one of them.

Noreen Simplicio: Well, not really, but just only the frog pot that I was talking about. But I think I can create things that are connected to this place.

Ranger Kelli: And these are deer, right?

Noreen Simplicio: Yeah.

Ranger Kelli: Earlier you told me about the opening of the mouth. Can you tell me about that again?

Noreen Simplicio: Yes. I always try to somewhere on the pot. The arrow that's leading to his heart is called the breath of life. So, every time I paint my deer, somewhere on the pot I leave the mouth open so that there's breath coming in and breath going out and having life. The symbol right here, where the line that goes around the pot that doesn't connect, that's a lifeline. Your lifeline, my lifeline, everybody's lifeline, or even the lifeline of the pot. So, when you create something with clay, you bring it to life.

Ranger Kelli: Wow. It's beautiful. Yeah. And I can just leave the floor open for any questions that you all might have. Does anybody have any questions?

Audience Member: The only time I've ever seen pottery made is with clay on a wheel. Right. Do you use a wheel to form your pottery?

Noreen Simplicio: No, this is what I use. I use my hands.

Audience Member: So, you're able to work the clay to the right thickness and the right density and also make it like, symmetrical, perfectly round or whatever?

Noreen Simplicio: 40 years it took me to make it. Well, when it comes to my work, I like to be perfect, but sometimes the clay has a mind of its own. If you have a plan in mind that you want a certain shape or a certain style, sometimes it won't happen. So, you just got to go with the flow and accept it. And especially if you worked on a piece and it breaks in the firing, it hits you right in the heart. But you know what? You don't stop there. You keep trying. And one of the other things that I wanted to say was that I have a story about my nephew. I saw he had a lot of talent, right? So, I kept influencing him. I said, hey, you really know how to do this really well. You should really advance yourself and start maybe doing some things in relief and things like that.

Noreen Simplicio: But he was young. And he was the type where I think I was forcing him to do it because I saw the talent. So, every time he came over to work on it, he was working on this large piece one time, he would come over and work on it, but his attitude was not good. He was either angry or something was going on with him. So, I would say, go home, get out of here, go home, come back tomorrow or something. And then he kept doing that. He'd done a large owl that he was working on, like for months. But I knew because of his attitude and the way his behavior was while he was creating that the owl wasn't going to make it through. So, when he finally finished it, I fired it. And guess what? I was so afraid because all my pieces are currently now being fired in a kiln. But with taking this class from Bobby, I learned how to do outdoor firing. So, this class when I took it, it just rejuvenated me. I can't wait to start doing everything, like the old way.

Ranger Kelli: And how does the outdoor firing look?

Noreen Simplicio: You practically build your own kiln using manure, but a very stinky process. Very stinky process.

Ranger Kelli: What type of manure?

Noreen Simplicio: You can use cow manure, sheep manure. You could use wood, but it's pretty awesome when you build your own pit, so I can't wait to try it. But I also need to do it somewhere other than my home because there's lots of neighbors around. I'm going to get the police called on me.

Audience Member: Did the owl break? Noreen Simplicio: Yes, the owl broke. One of the eyes popped off, one of the ears popped off.

Audience Member: Was he okay?

Noreen Simplicio: No, he cried. We all cried because the whole family was, like, so into it. We couldn't wait to see it, but that's what happened. But I knew. I knew it was going to happen because of his attitude. So, it's very important that your attitude is really good. Not sad, but always happy because whatever you're feeling when you're creating the energy is going into the piece. So, when the owl broke, of course, we sent it to the pottery hospital on top of a shelf, which stayed there for like two, three years. And then I kept telling him, I said, you need to do it from your heart. And he kept saying, what do you mean? So, the owl taught him a lesson and he finally got it, but he didn't create for like two, three years. And then I said, come back when you're ready, then we'll go through surgery. So, we fixed it and then somebody from Zuni bought it for their collection. But it made it, it was like good as new.

Audience Member: As a layperson, can you help me understand the difference between a yucca brush and a regular brush?

Noreen Simplicio: Okay, so all this time, since I've been a potter for like 35, 40 plus years, I've always used brushes because I could never use yucca. Brushes have a wooden handle and bristles. Yucca brushes are just little fibers and the stem of the yucca. So, it's a little bit harder to control and a little bit harder to maneuver the bristles. So, like, you're talking arthritis there.

Ranger Kelli: And do you go through a lot of yucca brushes?

Noreen Simplicio: Well, to finish this one, I probably went through four. You can make them in different sizes. You know how the yucca, the stem of the yucca is green, you scrape that off. Once you scrape off the green part, then you get your fibers.

Audience Member: You mentioned earlier you walk from like the Bright Angel Trailhead to the Ribbon Falls. So how long does it take?

Noreen Simplicio: It was my understanding it was like 25 miles round trip.

Ranger Kelli: Yeah. So, on the Bright Angel trail, it's longer switchbacks than South Kaibab trail. And Bright Angel trail is about, like, 9 miles down to Phantom Ranch. And then you also have to go up elevation on the North Kaibab Trail and then that's another like 7 miles. So, it is a pretty long hike, and it is one of the hardest hikes here at Grand Canyon especially because it's hotter in the canyon right now. But, also, she told me that she was carrying a 50-pound bag while hiking to Ribbon Falls.

Noreen Simplicio: I was determined to get there because I needed to see the place and see where we actually come from. And once we came down from Bright Angel Trail all the way down to Bright Angel Camp, we spent the night there. Then we went into Ribbon Falls the next morning and then we planted our prayer sticks there. Well, the men folk did. Planted our prayer sticks and played around there and then headed back to the camp. Next morning, we came back up. So, it was a very grueling hike, but I'm so glad that I did it, because it was just a spiritual journey for me. So, one thing I want to say about the Grand Canyon area is that because of the eleven affiliated tribes, this is my own personal thoughts. Because of the Ribbon Falls being such a very sacred place for many of the native Pueblo tribes, I feel that it should not be open to the public. Because a lot of times when non-natives go there, they damage the landscape. There's a teaching or a saying that the Elders always talk about. When you travel into the forest, into the woods area, these are homes to the bugs, the plants, the trees. So, we have a big thing about trashing the earth, which is not a very pleasant sight. So that's just my feeling on, like, it shouldn't be open to the public. It should only be open to Natives because we do our spiritual offerings there. So that's just my only thoughts on that.

Ranger Kelli: It's really hard to kind of make that connection with the native people in these areas, because spiritually, it's still alive. Like she said, there's animals there's living species that live in these areas, and because it is a living landscape, it's also spiritually alive. We're not physically here, but our connection is still there with it. So very important thing that you did say there because we're struggling as native people today to save our sacred sites, and Ribbon Falls is a very highly visited area with our visitors. So, I really appreciate that.

Noreen Simplicio: So just to be respectful, when you do visit places of sacredness or places where you want to go visit, just please be respectful of the land and the landscapes and the animals. Even like the little ladybugs. Because there were some kids today that was playing with the ladybugs, and the mom told them, go put it over there by the tree. So just things like that are very important to us Natives because we pray to the land, and we use the flesh of the land to create our pieces. So just please be respectful.

Audience Member: How many colors have you had? Or can you use?

Noreen Simplicio: Okay, so there's brown, which is the dark brown hematite stone, and the brown hematite stone is mixed with some sort of plant, like the wild spinach plant. You pick the plant, you take the leaves off, you boil the leaves, and when the spinach is done, you can eat it and save the juice and boil it down till it almost gets like a molasses type. Really sticky stuff. And you dry that, and you grind it down on a rock with the hematite stone and the spinach. So, the spinach is kind of like the glue for the paint, but you have to get the mixture right. If you add too much of the spinach, or if you get too much of the hematite when you actually do your designing, it'll peel off. Or you won't know until you fire the piece. And then the other colors are, of course, the white, the peach color, and the red. So those are all the basic colors. I do also do some other pieces. I do a lot of things. I do pottery, I do what's called sublimation, which are images that are done on the computer, printed out on cups, pillows, whatever. I do clay, jewelry. What else do we do? David and I incorporate some pieces. He's a silversmith, and I do the pottery part and we set them in silver.

Ranger Kelli: And I know you said something earlier before you came here. You're like, I'm going to put the pottery on my head. Do you do for those types of dances?

Noreen Simplicio: Oh, yes. There's a group of women in Zuni that are called the Olla maidens. Anybody heard of the Olla maidens? Yes, they're very famous and it's a group of women that go around and entertain. They carry the pot on their heads like this, actually balancing them, and they dance to music. And when I get back home, I need to do a couple because the group is going to, I believe, New York to do a performance, so I need to create some pots for them.

Audience Member: Could you tell us what other plants or something you use to make the different colors? Noreen Simplicio: The only other plants that I know of that well, not different colors, but to add to the hematite brownstone to make it sticky. So, there's the bee weed, the wild spinach and the mustard plant, I think. Yeah, but I've only experimented with the spinach plant. I've not tried the others yet.

Ranger Kelli: Looks like we are right at sunset. So, I just have one last question for Noreen. As people who are visiting these sacred areas and based on what you told us tonight, what would you like us to take away from what you talked about this evening? Noreen Simplicio: Well, just educating the public on really respecting the native lands. Respect our culture, respect who we are as native people. Let's all be friends and let's all get along.

Ranger Kelli: Yeah. Well, let's give it up for Noreen. And if you all want to see her in action tomorrow, she is going to be demonstrating at the Watchtower from nine to four o'clock.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.NPS.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the eleven associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 03 Nov 2023 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/17A693C4-B5A0-8CE1-0A9DA65B72802D00.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-17BAD137-A2A3-BDBA-6135ED3794D208D6 Janet Yazzie Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, we talk to Diné (Navajo) painter Janet Yazzie. We talk with Janet about how she developed the courage to be a full-time artist, the inspirations for her work, and her favorite parts about her job. Janet even did the art for this very podcast! 2355 no full 3 1

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Janet Yazzie”: So I was, okay, I'll do this. I think I can do this. And I kept hearing from my family, you can do this. You're really good at it. I was like, okay, fine. Okay. I'll do it. I'll do it. But then I just I had to believe in myself first to become an artist and to embrace this gift that I was blessed with.

Ranger Melissa: Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks! My name is Ranger Melissa.

Ranger Jonah: And I'm Ranger Jonah.

Ranger Melissa: Hey, who did we interview today in this episode?

Ranger Jonah: Yeah, in this episode, we talked to Janet Yazzie. It was a really unique program in person. We had to initially cancel because of lightning, but by the time the program came around, the weather cleared, a big rainbow came out, and it was just a beautiful evening.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. We actually moved under a shade structure by the parking lot to get away from that extra rain that was just ending. And we had a great time talking with Janet. It was good to hear about her life and how she only recently labeled herself as a full-time artist after taking some really big leaps.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. Even though we were by the parking lot, and this was actually one of our first programs, I was really happy with our conversation. So, without further ado, Janet. Hello!

Janet Yazzie: Hi.

Ranger Jonah: Well, Janet, thank you so much for coming to the program today.

Janet Yazzie: Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

Ranger Jonah: So, my first question is, where are you from?

Janet Yazzie: I am originally from the Navajo reservation called lower Greasewood. It is like 100 miles away from here, northeast, but I live in Flagstaff, Arizona, currently.

Ranger Jonah: A little bit closer. Very nice! And so, you are an artist. And how did you start your career? Could you kind of tell the story of when you first decided that this was what you wanted to do?

Janet Yazzie: Okay, well, it took me a long time to get to where I'm at right now and to figure out that I wanted to be an artist. I did start as a child. I remember working on something in my class when I was in the third grade, and it was a bluebird and I entered it into a contest. From there on, I decided that I felt like I could draw but I didn't really take on that I could really draw. I doodled along the way with pencil, charcoal, not knowing that that was my medium yet, or I couldn't find what I was really interested in. I did woodwork, I did ceramic. I did a lot of craft art. And then somewhere along the way, I started working with acrylic. And acrylic seemed like it was a little bit hard to do at first.

Ranger Jonah: Sure.

Janet Yazzie: I did buy some canvas and paint, and I just kind of storaged it away and then didn't look at it for a long time because I went to school. You get busy with your life. Went to college, had various jobs. And then even when I was in high school, I took art class, and I found that it was pretty interesting, just art itself, and some of my art teachers, they would get us to do different projects. But then again, I didn't think, oh, art, should I do art? When you're a kid, you don't know that's the way you want to go, to be an artist. So, I just left it as that. Still had my canvas and my paint storage away, and then took some classes in college and then took an art class for an elective because it was, like, the easiest class to take. And I just kind of coast right through it because my teacher wasn't challenging enough for me. And she used to put, like, just still life items in front of us, and then she's just like, okay, you guys draw this. And yeah, I did it. And it was like, okay, what's next? So that wasn't challenging enough for me. And still, it didn't click, being an artist. But I did meet my husband in art class.

Ranger Jonah: Well, you should’ve known right then and there!

Janet Yazzie: Yeah, that wasn't what I was looking for at the time. And my art teacher paired us up, and we did a project together, and we became best friends. Since then, we've been inseparable. We got married. We had four kids. And then I got busy with this, you know. Well, that happened a bit later, but I did have my first job at the Heard Museum. And I used to be around all this amazing art, a bunch of different artists from all over the reservations around me. And it was kind of amazing just to be around all that art. And I thought, I could do that. I could do this. But I was like, no, I don't know. And then I had my family. I was busy. And still didn't figure that I could be an artist. And then somewhere I started doing commission, like, just painting. But I did it for my family, people that knew me. I did, like, little pieces, then I'll just gave them as gifts. And then I decided, okay, in 2019, I'm going to do a mural. So, I did a little mural for one of the churches that I go to, and it was pretty small, so I did that first. And then within that time period, the people that I knew there, they wanted me to illustrate a book for them. So, I was like, okay, this is a big step, illustrating a book.

Ranger Jonah: Certainly.

Janet Yazzie: Can I do this? It was kind of a scary thought at first. I was like, all right, I'll try it. And I did a sketch, and I did the painting, and they loved the cover. So, I illustrated my first book in 2020 during the pandemic, when it was just starting. And then I just kept painting, and I did murals, another mural. Then I did another mural, and then I started working on more pieces. So, the whole year of 2020, I was painting, and I was trying to figure out, okay, is this what I want to do? So, I was like, okay, I'll do this. I think I can do this. And I kept hearing from my family, you can do this. You're really good at it. I was like, okay, fine. Okay, I'll do it. I'll do it. But then I had to believe in myself first to become an artist and to embrace this gift that I was blessed with. So, I was like, all right, I'll paint something, and I'll see what it'll come out to be. It took me a long time to get to realize that all right, I should be an artist. It wasn't just like, instant. I had to really think about it.

Ranger Jonah: You had to build the confidence?

Janet Yazzie: Yeah, I did. I had to build the confidence. And then I had to figure out what art really meant to me before I really started painting. And then I was like, okay, I'll just go ahead and start painting. And then what year was it? Right when the pandemic was over, the Heritage Festival put up their first show in July of 2021. And I thought to myself, should I do this? I was so scared.

Ranger Jonah: And your friends and family, I'm sure, said, "Yes! Please!"

Janet Yazzie: Yes so, I had to submit images, and I filled out the application. I waited, and I was like okay, I can do this. All right, I'll just do it. So, I sent it and that same evening, they responded to me, and they said that you are accepted as an artist. So, I was like, okay.

Ranger Jonah: A very quick turnaround time.

Janet Yazzie: So that was a really big step for me. So then from there, I figured, okay, I can do this and be an artist. I had to really think about what I was about as an artist. I know people, when you ask them, what inspires you? What made you get into this? It took me a long time to figure out what I really wanted to do with my life and what I really wanted to be.

Ranger Jonah: Certainly. But it came together.

Janet Yazzie: It came together. Once I figured it out, all the opportunities and everything opened up.

Ranger Jonah: All the doors show up right when you're looking for them. Absolutely.

Janet Yazzie: It's been amazing. And I'm not done. I just got started!

Ranger Jonah: Yes, certainly. So, the first big projects, the mural, the book, those were really what launched you into your career. But you were just talking about inspiration. Was there someone in your life, perhaps when you were growing up that maybe encouraged you more, that you took a lot of inspiration for? I know that you have your grandmother in a lot of your art. How did your grandmother encourage you?

Janet Yazzie: Okay, so I grew up with my grandmother. I was the first-born child on my mom's side, and she used to drop me off with my grandma when I was little, so I spent a lot of time with her. And I remember we're did, like, planting. We did a whole cornfield. We did sunflowers, and she was a weaver. And there's just like, all these memories that I created with her, and she was really special to me. It was kind of like a language barrier, too, because I wasn't really super fluent in Navajo, and she passed away when I was a junior in high school. She used to always wear purple. All these little things that I paint in my artwork, like the cornfield, the sunflowers, and the sheep, these are all the memories that I keep of her, to keep her alive. And it's kind of nice, too, when I do these paintings, a lot of native women are just my Diné people. They'll come to me and they'll remember stuff that they used to do with their grandmas.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. So, they take something for themselves.

Janet Yazzie: Yeah. And then sometimes when people come and look at my work and they'll start crying, they're like, oh, I miss my grandma. She used to always wear purple. These are the things we used to do. I like to capture that kind of stuff and kind of share it with everybody. That was very special.

Ranger Jonah: It makes the career all the more meaningful, right? Because your art really affects people.

Janet Yazzie: Yes, it does. Yes. So, I think just the colors themself, the work I put into it. Everything that I do in my work, it means something. Just people looking at it, inspired by the colors. I think my work has done its job by just them looking at it.

Ranger Jonah: Absolutely.

Janet Yazzie: Yeah.

Ranger Jonah: So, you kind of already mentioned the colors as some of the symbolism, perhaps, of personal significance, and then how it has a way of connecting with people. What are some of the other symbols that you like to use in your work?

Janet Yazzie: Let me see. I do windmills. I do the windmill. I grew up around the windmill, so hauling the water when I was young, we took many trips hauling water for my grandparents, and water didn't come easy because you have to use that for the livestock, for the crops, and just even washing clothes. So, the windmill plays a lot in my artwork, and I like to change the scenery as well and just kind of work it in my artwork.

Ranger Jonah: But it's a lot of scenery that you remember as a child, these memories that come back to you. Which brings up another question that I have. You talk about how these scenes are from various points in your life and how the colors are inspired by various things that you remember. So, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the process of actually creating a piece of work. When you are beginning perhaps an acrylic painting, for example, do you see all that in your head right when you begin? Or do you just say, I'm going to start with a lot of different types of orange, and then we're going to see where it goes from there.

Janet Yazzie: Usually when I start a piece, I already know what color it's going to be, and I already see it. So, I'll start with the background first, and I kind of play with it. And then once I like the background, well, I don't make it too dark. I make it light enough where the colors are light but bright. And then I put the main idea on there. And then when I have the main idea there, I'll go back to the sky and I start working on that, and I'll start detailing it and then comes out to something that I don't know what it's going to look like at the very end.

Ranger Jonah: Right.

Janet Yazzie: Sometimes I'll step back for a moment and I was like, oh, wait, I don't like that there. And I'll fix it, go back and forth. And then to me, a painting is never done because I can go back to it and add something or kind of detail it some more. But yeah, most of the time I already know what it's going to look like.

Ranger Jonah: Do you consider yourself a perfectionist when you start and then you're sort of completed? How do you know when you're done? Because I imagine there's always a feeling that maybe it can be tweaked just a little bit more.

Janet Yazzie: I try not to be a perfectionist.

Ranger Jonah: I'm sure that helps.

Janet Yazzie: I know when I did one of my like, my favorite piece. It was called the Arrow Head Cheíí. This one was a pain to do just because when you get the front texture of the scale, I wanted to make it look really sharp and colorful. That one was the one that I was wanting to be like perfection. But of course, you can't get perfection.

Ranger Jonah: Just depends on how you define it!

Janet Yazzie: I just wanted it to look really nice, and it came out beautifully when I was done. Yeah, I would have kept that one. It was really nice, though. Yes.

Ranger Jonah: And you talked a little bit about this, but windmills and the sky, I mean, you have a very distinct style. So how do you feel like your style may be unique compared to some of your contemporaries.

Janet Yazzie: I do a lot of night skies. I change up the colors. I got really good at it. From my first piece when I did the night sky in 2020, I compared it from then to now. It is completely different. I look at my work from a while back to now, and I can just see all the practice that I've done in my blending up until now. Oh my gosh. I didn't realize my technique has changed so much, and just the way that I look at the sky, and I really pay attention to it. I always pay attention to my surroundings. When you're taking a walk, you take a look at the sky, and a cloud isn't just white. There are other colors in it. So many different colors. So people will just paint, like, a white. It's not white. I think the cloud was kind of hard for me to do at the beginning. Now it's not I can get it and just make it a little bit different, the way I want. That's the same as the night sky. So, who knows, maybe I'll get a little bit better as the years go by. I'm not perfect yet. I'm still practicing as I go along.

Ranger Jonah: Doing the night sky, is there a direction? Perhaps you see your style going. Is there something that you've wanted to tap into that you haven't had the time or focus to get to yet?

Janet Yazzie: Yes, I have this huge canvas. It's really large.

Ranger Jonah: Going back to the murals

Janet Yazzie: I don't know how big it will be. I'm not sure what the size is. This canvas was donated to me. I'm going to put a huge night sky, and then I'm going to put all our Navajo Nation monuments on it. So, this thing is going to be big. I just haven't had the time to do it, but I already know what it's going to look like. So, in the future, I will do that.

Ranger Jonah: That's very exciting. We'll have to keep tuned. So, of course, being an artist who sells their work, you have to go to shows. So, what are some of the shows you go to and how did you get started with them.

Janet Yazzie: Okay, so my first show was the Heritage Festival in Flagstaff. That was my very first show. And it was amazing because I got to meet a bunch of artists. From there on, I did a bunch of local shows in Flagstaff. I did, like, the art walks. I've gone to various little shows here and there just to be comfortable with doing shows. But the bigger shows that I wanted to do as an artist was the Heard Museum and do the SWAIA, the Santa Fe Indian Market. Well, I got into the SWAIA last year, and then this year, I did the Heard Museum in March.

Ranger Jonah: And you worked at the Heard Museum?

Janet Yazzie: Yes, I used to work at the Heard Museum.

Ranger Jonah: So, it all comes back.

Janet Yazzie: It was a great experience, and it was unbelievable just to be around all these amazing artists, and I just couldn't believe I was within all these amazing artists.

Ranger Jonah: Absolutely. And I'm sure you learn all sorts of tips and tricks and people help give advice. Was that really important to your development in the last few years or so?

Janet Yazzie: Yes. So, I'm part of an organization called Art of the People as well. And they're a bunch of male artists, and they're more like my mentors. And they kind of give me tips on everything. What a good size canvas is to take with you, for example. If you go on the road, they'll tell you, don't take huge 30 x 40 canvases because you have to lug this thing around in your vehicle. They're like, okay, Janet, take something that's a good size to pack because you have to wrap them. So little stuff like that I learned. Good tips from the yeah, I learned that too.

Ranger Jonah: Do you have a favorite show that you've been to or one that was really a moment of just, wow, I cannot believe I'm here. I didn't ever think that I'd get here.

Janet Yazzie: I think the SWAIA was the one for me.

Ranger Jonah: And SWAIA is?

Ranger Jonah: Santa Fe Indian Market. Yes. In Santa Fe, New Mexico. Yes. And then I made the 100 Centennial for that one.

Ranger Jonah: Oh, wow.

Janet Yazzie: Yeah.

Ranger Jonah: What a perfect year.

Janet Yazzie: I know, that was cool. That was cool. It was kind of funny because me and my sister visited the SWAIA in 2018. I had no idea they had the SWAIA for Native artists. Yeah, I had no idea as an artist. I had no idea. But we went just to go as visitors, and I saw all these amazing artists. My sister says to me, you should do this. I'm like, I don't know. And then when I started painting, I applied, and then I got accepted. I was like, what? This is crazy. Yeah, so I was just honored to be there. And then I was on the magazine, too. I was like, wow.

Ranger Jonah: Have you seen your own work? It makes sense! So, what are some of the other hobbies that you enjoy doing outside of art?

Janet Yazzie: Let me see. What do I do? I do a lot. I spend time with my family. They all ride dirt bikes. They all ride dirt bikes. So that's what we used to do before I started doing this.

Ranger Jonah: And that is street biking or motorized biking.

Janet Yazzie: Dirt bikes. Yeah, they compete. We do Arizona Nationals, California Nationals. And my kids, that's all they grew up on. And that's what I used to do, too, when they were little, and we'd ride mountain bikes. So that's like the other part of me. That's my family. So, while they're racing and going to Farmington for a race, I'm over here doing art shows, and I'm by myself. So, I had to learn to unpack, put my panels up and just learn to be by myself and do this. Because my husband's like, 100% supportive. He's like, "Honey, go out and do your art. This is what you can do." I was like, okay, I'll do it.

Ranger Jonah: And you've done it.

Janet Yazzie: Yeah. And I used to be their pit crew all the time. Gassing them up and doing whatever they need. But now that my husband's retired, he does that for my kids now.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah, right on. And you go to art shows.

Janet Yazzie: Yes, I do art shows now.

Ranger Jonah: Very nice. Well, so one of I don't know if we could call this a show, but one thing that you've done is come to the Grand Canyon and be a part of our cultural demonstration program. So, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the program and whether you've enjoyed it?

Janet Yazzie: Yes. I've only heard of this place, the cultural demonstration from other artists, and they would talk about it. Saying it was amazing. I'm like what? How in the world can I be a part of this? I don't understand. And then my friend Jonah, he says, Janet, you need to go online. And I was oh, okay. There's this guy. He does it, Dan. He's all I was like, who?

Ranger Jonah: Ranger Dan!

Janet Yazzie: So, I didn't know you were a ranger. I was like, okay. And then I got busy, and just lo and behold, winter market came at the museum, and then these people show up my booth, and I was talking to everybody else, and Dan introduced himself, and we were talking, and then he started talking about the program. I was like, what? I heard about that program. I was like, yes, I will do it just the way some of the artists talked about the program. And I was like, yeah, I definitely want to try it, because this will be the first for me and to get my work out there, show people what I can do, share my colors, what I'm about, and showing people that I'm a Navajo woman coming from the Navajo reservation, and just the life experience that I went through.

Janet Yazzie: I want to share with people what I come from, what I see, the colors I see. I want to share all my background; I want them to know that this is my perspective as a woman. So that's what my work was about.

Ranger Jonah: Absolutely. And we're all very grateful that you came and shared your perspective. Has there been any visitor interactions or interactions with visitors that were particularly like: wow, that was really cool!

Janet Yazzie: Yeah, I met people from all over the world these couple days. People from Germany, a lot of people from New Hampshire, Chicago. Yeah, and they bought my work. They wanted to share this stuff. And then I give them the story of what my art is about, and they're just blown away. And then I talk about my clans. My clans are that I am Kinłichíi’nii, Mą’ii Deeshgiizhinii, Tséńjíkiní, and Tł’ízíłání. So that is my mom's clan, my dad's clan, my grandparent’s clan, and then my father's parents clan. So that's how I identify myself as a Navajo woman. So, when we introduce ourselves, that's how we introduce ourselves, by our clans. And I kind of told them about how our clan system works because it goes by our bloodlines, and some of the people are like, whoa, what? You have to remember all those four clans. Yes, you do. Yes. And it's kind of crazy because when you first introduce yourself and you're a single woman, you can't just go and meet that person, say, oh, yeah. We have to introduce ourselves and see if any of those four clans match. If one of them is the same, you cannot date this person. Yeah, it's just like, one of the rules. So, it's just like a blood rule. Bloodstream kind of thing.

Ranger Jonah: An easy topic to bring up in art class, I am sure!

Janet Yazzie: You know what? That's kind of funny, because when I met my husband, we're, like, talking, and then instantly we're like, what's your clan?

Ranger Jonah: It works. It's a good pickup line.

Janet Yazzie: But my experience here at the Grand Canyon has been amazing. I mean, just the view itself, holy cow! I mean, who knew I was going to be in the Watchtower painting? And just the experience of people coming over, wanting to know who I am, interested in what I do, from all over the world. Yeah, it's great. It's great.

Ranger Jonah: Absolutely.

Janet Yazzie: I definitely enjoyed being here.

Ranger Jonah: And I understand that you have recently started marking your work with the Red House logo, so I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the significance of that.

Janet Yazzie: Okay. So, when I first started off, I didn't think about it. When I first did my artwork. But as I started painting, I decided, you know what? I need some kind of logo for myself. And then I created the Red House art. So Red House is Kinłichíi’nii in Navajo, and that's my mom's clan, and that's identified as me. I'm a red house. I'm a Kinłichíi’nii. And so, I made a logo, and I designed it as my own. And then right above the logo, I put my Janet M. Yazzie. So, every time when I complete a canvas, I stamp my canvas in the back of it, and then any of my prints, too, I stamp, and I sign it. So, if you own any of my work, it has my special stamp on it. Very cool to show that it is mine.

Ranger Jonah: Well, I have saved my last question to be the very hardest question that I'm going to ask tonight. So, what is your favorite food?

Audience Member: The people want to know!

Janet Yazzie: Oh, my favorite food. Gosh, I have so many. I like potatoes and Spam.

Ranger Jonah: A dark horse! Did not expect that one.

Janet Yazzie: With hot tortillas, but I try not to make it too much. Yeah.

Ranger Jonah: Well, thank you so much for doing this program. I would love to turn to our audience now and ask if there's anybody in the audience who has a question that they would like to ask Janet.

Janet Yazzie: Sure.

Audience Member: Apologies, I came late. So, if this was already asked, I'm sorry. You spoke a little bit about how with that large canvas you were making, you already know what it's going to look like.

Janet Yazzie: Yes.

Audience Member: I'm curious, when you're painting, how close does your kind of initial vision of what your painting is going to be come out in terms of what the end result is? Is it close or does it deviate quite a bit from what you imagine?

Janet Yazzie: It kind of changes in between. Maybe like when I'm maybe in the middle processing, because sometimes I know when I look at something, I don't want it dark just because it's a night sky. Because I know this canvas that I'm going to be doing, it's going to be a night sky. I prefer it to be a little bit brighter. I'm thinking maybe it could be a little bit green. I'm going to throw some purple in there. So somewhere in between, I will change that. But I think maybe later when I start it, I might add something else to it, too. Yeah, who knows? But just like the basic idea, just thinking about it. I kind of already have an idea, but then when I go into it, it changes, but it comes out beautifully at the end.

Ranger Jonah: Yes.

Audience Member: Oh, I have two questions. Do you use oil paints, and do you use the reference photos?

Janet Yazzie: I use acrylic.

Audience Member: Oil paints are really hard.

Janet Yazzie: Yeah, I find acrylic a little bit easier to work with. You just use a lot of water. And what was the other question?

Audience Member: Oh, about reference photos?

Janet Yazzie: Oh, so, I do both. I can look at something. I mean, I don't have a photogenic memory, but if there's something that I remember or something that I see and I want to do something like a really nice, really nice tree or the sky, I'll take a picture and I'll put it away. And then if I have something in mind that I'm going to put together, maybe I'll use that or maybe I won't. But there's this one I'm working on. It's a hogan. That one was just kind of like a memory thing. So, I can do both. I can do both. It just depends on how I'm feeling that day. I don't know. And sometimes I can work, like, on four canvases. One of them could be an image that I saved, and then one of them is a memory. I think with doing those kinds of exercises I can do both. Yeah.

Ranger Jonah: Does anybody have any more questions for our artist?

Audience Member: Yes, I have two. How many paintings do you usually paint like a month? And then do any of your kids do art? Are they going to follow in your footsteps?

Janet Yazzie: Okay, so right now, currently, I am working on six canvases. They're all different sizes. I love to do tiny art, so I do like those little three x three canvases that come with the little easels. I can finish those- in an hour sometimes. Sometimes I'll start something, and I'll just put it aside. And I hate to use this word, and I tell my kids not to use this word- bored. But if I don't want to do one anymore, I'll move it aside and then I start on something else. But I use different colors, and I have different color palettes sometimes for certain canvases. But yeah, right now I'm working on six, and it varies depending on how big they are. Maybe I can finish one in three weeks. I can finish one in two weeks. I can finish one in a week. There's just one I did two weeks ago at the Coconino Community College. There was a canvas that I worked on. It was like 24 x 30, and I did a night sky. I started on Thursday. It took me a week to finish because that's all I do. All I do is paint twenty-four seven, and I can stand there for hours and just paint. But I was doing like a fundraiser thing for this, so it was like a must do to finish. If there is a deadline, I will finish it. So it just all depends on the situation. I have a show coming the end of June. I will be ready for that because I need bigger canvases, so I'm going to get more out. And I push myself, but I don't want to push myself to where I'm not going to like it anymore because I start cramping in my hands. So, yeah, it just all varies. But most of the time I can do like two weeks, a week, a month, and if I want it to look really good, I just kind of take my time on it. And then my son, the youngest one, he is actually painting right now. He paints, but he's kind of into anime. But I do encourage him. My daughter, she paints too, but she's into crocheting. Yeah, she's into crocheting right now. So, I hope they do follow my footsteps. And I have parents that come up to me and want me to be the mentor for their kids. And it's totally fine. It's like, sure, yeah. I do hope they follow my footsteps.

Audience Member: Do you name your paintings?

Janet Yazzie: Yes, I do.

Audience Member: What's that process involve?

Janet Yazzie: So, there's one that I did. It's called Homeward Bound. It's a 24 x 30 3D gallery wrap canvas. And I used a lot of pink and orange and yellow in this because the clouds are massive. And that one I call Homework Bound because the sheep are coming towards you. And that's like a sunset. And that was, like, my favorite because that's when the sheep come home. And that was like, one of my favorite images because my mom raises sheep and it's just like the clouds themself were my favorite. And I didn't really use any black in this painting. I used like really dark brown with dark purple to make my darkness on there, but oh my gosh, that one is my favorite. So, if you ever look at my Instagram or Facebook that's on there.

Ranger Jonah: Yes. Could we get the Instagram and the Facebook?

Janet Yazzie: It's janmyzzi_artwall, and it's both on Instagram and Facebook.

Ranger Jonah: Well, Janet, you will be in the watchtower tomorrow from nine to four. So, if anybody would like to see her work, she will be displaying that between nine and four. I was wondering if you had one final takeaway, maybe one thing that if you'd like people to know, this would be it.

Janet Yazzie: What do I say?

Ranger Jonah: No pressure. Just being recorded.

Janet Yazzie: I would just like to say thank you so much for loving my art. People that have come in the past are still coming to look at my work. You have no idea how much it means to me that people really enjoy my colors. It means a lot. And I didn't know I was going to be here as an artist. I think it took a lot of courage and I had to really look at myself and figure that this is what I want it to do with my life and I'm glad I'm sharing it. So, thank you for having me be here. This is definitely an honor and always my first at everything. I'm very grateful just to be here.

Ranger Jonah: Yes, well, I think we could all use a little bit of courage in our lives no matter what we are doing. And with that, thank you so much for being part of Grand Canyon Speaks. Thank you, audience, for being here a part of Grand Canyon Speaks in such a unique setting.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.NPS.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the eleven associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 03 Nov 2023 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/17CFFCB6-D61D-810B-E7D3AB54CBF1F4B8.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-17D0E323-CC47-C550-AE0E9ECB327284B8 The Zuni Youth Enrichment Program Speaks (part 1) Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service The first of a two-part series. In this episode, we talk to two alumni from the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program, Lashae Harris and Chasady Simplicio. LaShae is an embroiderer, while Chasady is a weaver. This conversation explains the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program, how each artist decided which art to pursue, and the value of keeping traditional art alive. 2457 no full 4 1

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TRANSCRIPT:

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LaShae Harris: I think it presents itself as, like, just giving kids an outlet to even experience these art forms, because I know without ZYEP, I would have probably never touched embroidery or gave it a second thought.

Ranger Jonah: Hello, and welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. My name is Ranger Jonah.

Ranger Melissa: And I'm Ranger Melissa.

Ranger Jonah: So, Melissa, could you tell us a little bit about this episode?

Ranger Melissa: Yeah! In this interview, we hear from two Zuni Youth Enrichment Program alumni, Chasady Simplicio and Lashae Harris.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. And this is actually the first of two episodes we have with alumni from the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. What's really cool about this episode is that we're hearing from the voices of youth that come from our tribal communities. They're only 18 and 24, if you can believe it. Our coworker Dan had the pleasure of interviewing with them.

Ranger Jonah: Well, it sounds very exciting. So, without further ado, Chasady and Lashae.

Ranger Dan: We'll get this program started. This is good. This is one of the more interesting interviews that we've had here. Not because the people aren't interesting or, uh, this is a terrible way to enter. (Laughter)

Chasady Simplicio: You're going to have to do some editing.

LaShae Harris: Start over.

Ranger Dan: We are going to start over. I'm giving space on that so we can actually get this going. Well, thank you for coming out to Grand Canyon and being part of the cultural demonstration program here. It's a great honor to have ZYEP Zuni youth enrichment program out here and having you two as some of the representatives for the program, and especially as your first time here as cultural demonstrators at Grand Canyon. So, I would love to have you both introduce yourself and yeah, thank you. Our three beginning audience members here. So, I'd love for you to introduce yourself, where you're from, how old you are, and what is your discipline here that you are specializing in as a cultural demonstrator.

LaShae Harris: Okay, I'll go first. My name is LaShae Harris. I'm 24 years old from the Pueblo Zuni. And my discipline here is pueblo embroidery or traditional embroidery.

Ranger Dan: Cool. Thank you.

Chasady Simplicio: Okay. Chasady Simplicio. I'm 19 years old, and I'm also from the Zuni pueblo, and my discipline here is pueblo weaving.

Ranger Dan: Awesome! We've got embroidery and also weaving. So, two things that really complement each other very well. There's similarities and differences to these different art forms, which is awesome. What about the medium that you practice of embroidery and weaving drew you into pursuing this? And it's only been about a year or so for both of you for your art form. So, what drew you into starting down this path of embroidery and weaving?

LaShae Harris: Well, for me, I was looking for something that was other than some kind of art form, other than drawing or painting. I just felt like I hit kind of an artist block for a long time where I felt like I couldn't create anything. I just didn't know what to create or what to draw or anything. So, when I saw the opportunity to have the embroidery apprenticeship. I applied, hoping that I would get in, and I was selected for the emerging artist apprenticeship. And I like that it kind of got me out of this sort of rut that I was in, because it's very methodical with the planning and mapping out your design, and it's like you follow a kind of method. So, I kind of like that. You can still be creative with it, but it's not so much pressure to draw something new or paint something new. It's just kind of the designs are there and just replicating the designs and creating your own project.

Ranger Dan: Awesome.

Chasady Simplicio: Okay. So, for me, at first, I kind of wanted to help out my family in some way or excel at some sort of art form. I tried painting and drawing, but it never really was as good as I would want it to be. So, then, I joined the class in my sophomore year of high school for weaving, and I learned some things here and there. I was able to excel to a certain point, but once I saw the apprenticeship for pueblo weaving, I was like, I really got to get in there. Maybe I can learn something new. Especially since one of my friends had taken the previous apprenticeship before he took two, and he learned a lot of the historical background of it. And it got me wondering, what would the historical background of weaving be? So, I decided, well, I'll just give it a shot. So, I applied, and when I got the call that I was accepted, I was so excited. And after learning all the things that I've learned down from the symbolism of the designs and everything, it felt like I just excelled at an abnormal rate, I guess, because as soon as I learned what the designs meant, it was like the designs just kept popping up in my head, one right after another. And I guess I really got to thank the teachers that were there. They helped a lot.

Ranger Dan: So, a great influence from the teachers for both of you have helped out with excelling in your artistic form.

Chasady Simplicio: Yes.

Ranger Dan: Cool. That's great. And it's a traditional art form, right? Yeah, these are art forms that have been around for hundreds of years, right? This is like, specifically Zuni too, right? Or, like, the styles?

LaShae Harris: Pueblo styles. Yeah. I think a lot of the pueblo share different elements, and we kind of, I guess, adopt one another's styles, especially over history and throughout time. We've adopted various ways of dressing and different styles of clothing from other pueblos, as well as, like, pottery designs too, even jewelry styles. So, it's a lot of sharing going on within the pueblos. But what is uniquely Zuni is the language. We're an isolated tribe, an isolated language. So only Zunis speak the Zuni language.

Ranger Dan: Okay, very cool. I've noticed over the years there are some similarities, some to, like, Hopi a little bit, but there isn't that full crossover. Like you say, Zuni is its own specific language, which is very interesting. It's your own area, it's your own thing. But then branching out from there, this textile work is, like you say, there's similarities to different Pueblo areas across the Southwest. And what is a big influence has Zuni in some of these, the work that you do, like, I know we have a bit of an embroidery here. This is from Elroy, and you've got some belts that you have made over there. And so, what about your pieces kind of sticks out as more Zuni than potentially other Pueblos.

LaShae Harris: I think maybe the way that we interpret our designs and what we consider them to, like, all the colors have meaning. The different shapes and styles have meaning. And I'm not too sure if they translate to other Pueblos or if they're the exact same or not. I know that there are some similarities in the shapes and styles, but I'm pretty sure they have different ways of taking those designs and patterns into different ideas.

Chasady Simplicio: I guess the same would kind of translate over into weaving as well. The one that I have right here, this is not one that I made. It was purchased from Acoma by Elroy, and it's made from wool. But you can still see the different kinds of symbolisms in there. So, the ones that I made, they're like rolling clouds. And I guess you would say this one is like fraying clouds. Like, you know how the ones that kind of streak into the sky kind of like that. I think a lot of that kind of translates into all different types of Pueblos. I'm not sure if they have other meanings too, but I'm pretty positive that other Pueblos are able to add in some things that we are unable to add, such as animals.

Ranger Dan: Okay.

Chasady Simplicio: We're not able to, I guess, put in animals in our sash belts, because when the dancer wears the sash belts, whatever is on the sash belt is what they pray for. So, if, let's say there's a frog on a sash belt, instead of rain coming, frogs are going to come. And I guess the reason why also, from what I was told, was Hopis, they put animals on there, such as, like bears and stuff in order to, I guess, get more game throughout the year. But I do know there is several differences between Pueblo belts and Navajo belts. There are several differences, such as... One thing that you will notice is how long their fringes are. Their fringes are very long. As from Pueblo belts, they're really short.

Ranger Dan: Okay. Very interesting. Like you're saying, there's a lot of symbolism involved with both of your work and also within Zuni culture. What about this art form for both of you makes it worth it for both of you to pursue this path of embroidery and weaving?

LaShae Harris: For me, I think it's the idea that these pieces are going to be around for a very long time. They're not just like, wear it a couple of times and then you're never going to touch it again. A lot of the times, like, kilts and traditional clothes are handed down between families and generations. So, it really makes me happy to know that these will be around for the long term. And who knows? There's so many traditional textiles and stuff that are held in museums and stuff. And I bet the creators, when they were making it, weren't ever expecting them to be held up in museums or to be around for as long as they've been around. And so I guess that's my hope, to create pieces that are here to stay longer than me.

Ranger Dan: Definitely.

Chasady Simplicio: I would have to agree with what Lashae said. A lot of the stuff that we make, it gets handed down, or as somebody passes on, they do take it with them. And I really do hope that, like her, I really do hope one day my pieces will stay around for longer than I am, or like I will. And I don't know, I guess for me, there's something about it. When you work on your pieces, there's just something about it. It's like with weaving, it's like you're creating life. In the beginning, it was only males that created sash belts because of their inability to create life. Unlike women. It wasn't until Western immigrants came over that they taught women how to do other types of things, like crocheting and all of that. I believe it wasn't until then that females were able to create sash belts. And in other words, your artwork is technically like your child, so you kind of want to talk to it and treat it like it is a living being, because that is how we see our things being made.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, it's a creation in and of itself. And you get to watch the piece grow as you're making it, and then it goes to someone in your family, someone at Zuni, and you can then watch it have its own life in that form with everyone, which is a really beautiful way to look at it. It does have its own life. And that piece, like you say, can potentially outlive yourselves. And we all create stuff like that that we can be remembered by and live on through as well. So that's beautiful. And so, it's like that feeling that you're getting from it, like a little bit of joy, some happiness, and maybe just a feeling that almost maybe can't be described when you get that piece ready and are working on it.

LaShae Harris: Yeah. And they definitely teach us to work when you're in high spirits and to put your best into the work, because they say it kind of draws in the energy that you have while you're creating it or while you're creating that piece. So you want to be happy and not get so frustrated. And they say your work will kind of reflect your mindset, and your pieces just won't work out if you're not in a good mental state and you're trying to create stuff.

LaShae Harris: Yeah. There's a lot that goes into it, even with embroidering, like how we're talking about the pieces living on beyond you. I was taught not to really get my sweat or my DNA into the piece itself, because it's like taking part of your soul, your spirit with it. Kind of, in a sense. And I was taught that when you pass on, you could potentially be haunting through your work because it's got some of you tied into it. You really have to be careful with your pieces, and there's a lot that goes into it that you don't even think about until you start really thinking about it. Okay. Yeah.

Ranger Dan: All right.

Chasady Simplicio: Yeah. And I think it is the same with weaving, and I believe also with embroidery. It also teaches you a lot of patience. You got to learn to be patient with your work, because everybody's first time making a piece isn't going to be perfect, and you just can't get frustrated. It just teaches you a lot of patience because you'll make mistakes. I don't know, it'll make you feel a little uncomfortable with how unforgiving weaving and embroidery can be. I've tried embroidery, and I can say, it's not my cup of tea. I can't do it. I can do weaving, but I tried embroidery, and I was like, no, I can't do it. I can't do it.

Ranger Dan: They're similar, but yet so different in a way where I know we were talking earlier today, Lashae, about where a piece begins, and if you're off by one square, which is a count on your piece, and then, say, you get, like, five inches away, and then realize that five inches backwards is where you went wrong. And you've got to redo everything. And that's got to be a little frustrating.

LaShae Harris: Yeah, it can be. And it definitely plays tricks on your eyes, too, when you're just staring at the same piece of cloth for quite a while. All the counting, it's tricky. For those who don't know, there's tiny squares on here, and you have to count kind of, like, cross stitch, and with huge pieces, you're, like, counting the thousands. Thousands of squares,

Ranger Dan: Both of you are new with your art form, and you've had influence through ZYEP, which is the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program. Can you talk a little bit about what that program is and the goals that are associated with it?

LaShae Harris: Yeah. So ZYEP started in 2009, and from my knowledge, it started out as just a simple camp for, like, ten youth, because that's all they have funding for, and it was just a summer camp to keep youth busy. It's since grown. They celebrated their 15-year anniversary this year and they now can serve over 200 youth in the summer for the summer camp alone, which gets filled up on the first day as soon as applications open up. It's in such high demand. They have a waiting list all summer of kids just wanting to get in. But they've also started to encompass other ways of enriching youth lives in Zuni through the art department, and there's a food and nutrition department. They push for a lot of cultural activities as well as decolonizing your diet and kind of reviving ancient recipes or utilizing old recipes to create new, modern ones. Which is really cool, because then youth get a chance to not only experience food that was eaten a long time ago, but they also get to try it in new ways. And they come up with crazy menus all the time and it's so delicious, all their food. And the art department, they started these apprenticeships where youth apply. There was a painting, pottery, embroidery, weaving, and I think a digital art as well.

LaShae Harris: So, they got to teach youth how to draw on iPads and create their own and market themselves as digital artists. So, they're teaching a lot of stuff to the youth and really bringing all the outside opportunities that us reservation kids didn't have before. They're really giving it to the youth. They even have sports camps and stuff too now with football and soccer and T-ball. So they're covering the whole nine yards when it comes to things for kids to do on the rez. So it's really nice. It's a good program.

Chasady Simplicio: Yeah, I know they did have like, T-ball and stuff back when I was a kid, but I believe it stopped after a while. But I do know that they did recently bring it back and I saw the Facebook page and just seeing all the little kids having fun. Just so cute, walking around, laughing. It is adorable.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, it's a very enriching program.

LaShae Harris: It is. They bring a lot to the community and they have a lot of outings where they just invite the community into the park to just do things as family. And I think it's what the community really needs to come together and to spend quality time together. And they really push for no sugary drinks and eating right and stuff, which is also very influential on youth and just kind of showing them that they can get hydrated in other ways that aren't like soda and Gatorade.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, that's tough. Yeah, that's a hard habit to quit. It's great. So, both of you went through apprenticeships, right? How long are your apprenticeships and is it under one artist in the community or are there multiple mentors that you have in the apprenticeship?

Chasady Simplicio: The apprenticeship usually takes about eight weeks and if Elroy and Kandis know the art form, they most likely will teach it themselves. However, I do believe with pottery, they did have other teachers come in to teach them, I guess, the traditions and cultural meanings behind everything. So, it would really depend on what art form it is and if they're able to find a teacher for it.

LaShae Harris: They do utilize other artists that are a part of the Arts co-op in Zuni, which is this cooperative that was started with a bunch of artists who just kind of wanted a place to sell their artwork at a store. And then also there was two apprentice programs. I don't know if she went through the same two, but there were two apprentice programs that I went through. The first one was Emerging Artists, and it took about six to eight weeks, and it was from youth 12 to 24. Out of that, I was selected for the Advanced Artist Apprenticeship, which was six months. And then I was working one on one with Elroy to kind of get a little more in depth with the embroidery and take on more challenging projects. So altogether, I've only been working with him for about a year now.

Chasady Simplicio: I've only gone through the eight-week apprenticeship. I'm not sure if the six month one was chosen yet, but I've only ever gone through the eight-week apprenticeship, and that was the most informational eight weeks I've ever been in. I've learned a lot of new ideas and new art forms and new influences. It gave me the push that I needed and the courage to, I guess, excel more. It was kind of like, you won't know how to do it, and you can't grow unless you make your mistakes. And it takes time and it takes mistakes in order for you to get as good as other artists out there.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. It's kind of hard to remember that everyone had that beginning, right?

Chasady Simplicio: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: Because you see them at a different point in their career, in their life. But it sounds like ZYEP has really grown from the original, like, ten kids 15 years ago to over 200 now that are active in the community. And it just builds up right away like a Taylor Swift concert. So, are you seeing a really good pass down of traditions in these art forms to the younger generations that are there?

Chasady Simplicio: Yeah, definitely.

LaShae Harris: What I really like about ZYEP, and this isn't like traditional art forms, but what I like about ZYEP is a lot of the youth who went through the camp or were like children participating in the sports camps often go back to work with ZYEP as camp counselors or to work as staff at ZYEP. They work as staff there. And so, I see a lot of people going back. But I think it presents itself as just giving kids an outlet to even experience these art forms. Because I know without ZYEP, I would have probably never touched embroidery or gave it a second thought just because it seemed, I guess, out of reach or like I wouldn't be able to find somebody to sit down and teach me how to do something. And it seemed like before, a lot of the times, only youth would get involved in an art form if it was either taught at school or if they had parents who were doing that art and they passed it down to them. So now it gives youth a chance, youth who don't have that kind of personal influence in life, to seek it out at ZYEP and to be able to get connected with other artists and find their little niche and what they can present to the art community.

Ranger Dan: Very cool.

Chasady Simplicio: Yeah, I got to agree with that, too, because I've seen a lot of people that were my age, and I see some of them starting to work with ZYEP, and it's just really cool to see. I think it opens up an opportunity as a job and stuff like, it opens up that opportunity because in Zuni, there's not much job openings that youth can take a part of. And I believe it's kind of hard for some youth, especially if after they graduate, they don't want to pursue college. They kind of just want to get a job, but they got to go out of town to get that job. And I really think ZYEP opened up that, opened up the curtains for them and invited them in, like, hey, you can work here. You can work here. You can mentor other younger generations and stuff like that. It's just really cool to see a lot of the staff being so young, and it's more inviting that way, I believe.

LaShae Harris: Yeah, it's refreshing.

Chasady Simplicio: Yeah, you see at other places, you see a lot more older people rather than young, and ZYEP just has that freshness in there.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, it seems like it's creating a generation of artists and individuals who can relate maybe to the kids in the program and help guide them along on those right paths, especially for those sugary drinks and the diet there. (Laughter). But it sounds like an amazing mentorship that's available through the program, and a very important one at that, yeah.

LaShae Harris: It's a really good program. I just look back fondly at ZYEP and all the things that we've done through the organization and all the opportunities they were able to present the youth. And it's nice to see a lot of younger individuals now selling their artwork and marketing themselves as artists. And it's really cool because then there's just so much talent in the youth and to see I'm just blown away at some of the things that these young kids create and how they're able to market themselves and start building their name as artists while they're young. So that way when they get older and start entering art shows and stuff, they'll already have that credibility behind them.

Chasady Simplicio: I would say the same thing like Shae said. There really is a lot of talent in the community. A lot of it is through drawing. And I believe kids, kind of like the younger youth, kind of only see, like, oh, I can only ever be if I'm good at drawing, then I'll be a really good artist. And they don't really think about the other types of art forms that are out there. It's like it's either I'm good at drawing or I'm not, because I was like that at one point. And then after finding a new art form and having ZYEP expanded more on those art forms and different types of creation. It really opens the door to more artists. And it really is nice seeing younger generations starting to sell their stuff at art shows. It's just really nice.

Ranger Dan: And you've only been doing this for a little while, but I see a lot of talent in what you've both created. So, what are your goals with your art forms, and what do you hope to see yourself doing with them in the future?

LaShae Harris: I really want to find my specialty or to find my signature thing in the art community. I feel like all the well established artists have their own style that is uniquely them. Even with the limits of creating traditional art, there's just certain styles that these artists have, and I really want to find mine and to just be able to create things that when I see them or when other people see them, they'll be like, oh, yeah, that's something that Shae created. That's something that she made. And I had mentioned that I was in a sewing apprenticeship, so I was learning how to sew traditional regalia as well. So I'm trying to find a way to merge the two and create my own pieces. So hopefully, if I come back, if I ever come back, I'll have some pieces that are uniquely mine.

Ranger Dan: We'll bring you back. Everyone back. Yeah.

Chasady Simplicio: For me, I kind of just want to provide something for my community. I grew up in a very religious household, and I feel like a lot of people don't have that. And especially with weavers, they're really hard to find. And when you do find a weaver, they're just backed up on orders. They're just like one right after another. They have orders that they have to fulfill. And knowing that I and the other people that took their apprenticeship with me, just knowing that we can take at least a small load off their back while there also still being business for them. I just want to lend a helping hand. And again, like Shae said, I want to create something that's uniquely mine. I'm not sure how I would do that, especially with weaving, since it's a little restrictive on what I can put on there and how thick your belt can be. But I do believe I can find something. I also kind of want to learn the signatures of all other weavers. If you take a look at my purple belts, you can see three dots, and that's my signature. So, if you see one like that, like, oh, Chasady made that.

Ranger Dan: That's awesome. Yeah. We will gladly help along this journey for you. And this is your first time here at Grand Canyon being demonstrators, and I definitely see it not being the last at all. ZYEP. Everyone is welcome to come back and partake in this program. I want to kind of close it out here with kind of a takeaway message. So what would you have the visitors here at Grand Canyon take away about your art, about Zuni or about the program? What would a takeaway message for folks be?

LaShae Harris: My takeaway message is, well, I want to give thanks to ZYEP for all the opportunities that they've presented over the years, not just this year, and to thank my instructors as well, because it's a lot of time and energy that they put into all of these events and the projects that they start up. But ZYEP is overall a very great program that has had a lot of influence on my life and as well as other youth in the community. And I'm just barely starting my embroidery craft. It's been a year long journey, but it's been great. I'm still trying to work up the courage to take on bigger pieces because embroidery tests your patience all the time, but it's fun. And it's a good way to stay connected to your community or to Zuni community. And just knowing that my pieces will be around for a while makes me feel good about creating them and not really like creating them for monetary gain, but as Chasady said, more to help the community. These pieces are very rare and hard to come by, especially authentic hand embroidered pieces. They can be created with much simpler, faster ways. But when people find actual hand embroidered ones, they are cherished a lot more. So definitely working to create bigger, better pieces and to improve my embroidery skills.

Chasady Simplicio: Again, like Lashae, I would want to thank ZYEP and our teachers. They did put a lot of time into making sure that these apprenticeships were set in stone. How the apprenticeship was going to go, what week things we were going to be doing, and stuff like that. And it really does take a lot of time, as well as going through all those applications, since only select few get chosen. I really am thankful that they did help me improve my craft, and it did give me a really big appreciation for art and just how long it takes for embroidery and weaving to be done. And it's just a whole new appreciation for a lot of things. And it's like so many and I can't name them all off at once. It's really amazing just to see what a group of people can do and how much they can provide to their community, all because they care.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, that's a very special thing. And I see a lot of care in both of you for your community and expressed through your craft as well, not just in your voice. So it's a great pleasure having both of you out here at Grand Canyon. Ever since we coordinated with ZYEP, everyone in the office has been excited to have all y'all out here and participate at the Canyon. We've been looking forward to this for, like, two months. It's been great. And so, again, thank you very much for being here, LaShae and Chasady, for coming out to Grand Canyon.

LaShae Harris: Thank you.

Chasady Simplicio: Thank you.

Ranger Dan: Would you care to take a couple of questions if folks have any?

Chasady Simplicio: Sure.

Audience Member: First question, do I have a limit on how many questions I can ask?

Ranger Dan: There's no infinity symbol.

Audience Member: Well, my first question is for Lashae. You mentioned that the embroidery has a meaning for different colors, and I love the green in that piece. What does that mean or represent?

LaShae Harris: So, this piece was created by my instructor. I'm not nearly as skilled yet, and I have not worked up the courage to take on such a big project because I've seen him work on it from start to end over the year that I worked with him. But the green would be representative of vegetation and growth, and then the black kind of represents clouds and the dark storm clouds. And I was taught that the patterns and the symbols are all in active prayer while you're creating it. So it's like praying for rain and growth of your crops and vegetation. And then the designs, these would be like, rain clouds. And this is actually a rainbow, the stripes in between. So, yeah, there's different meaning between it. I believe this was a sunfade or the butterfly.

ZYEP Instructor: Yeah, it can be seen in different ways. It's either a sunflower or a sunrise, or it's pretty much a sunrise during the raining time. That black part is my rainbow part, and it's just to signify: "don't rain so much to where it floods."

LaShae Harris: So, yeah, it's an active prayer when you're creating, and there's quite a bit that goes into the creation process. And as I mentioned before, it's a lot of counting. As with weaving, it's a lot of counting.

Audience Member: My next question is for Chasady. So, you mentioned that the fringe is shorter in Pueblo sashes than in Navajo. Is there a reason for that, or is it just that's how it is?

Chasady Simplicio: Usually, Navajos will have their fringes a lot longer. The core reason I'm not too sure on the reason why. It comes with money. The more wool that you have, the more money that you'll bring in and stuff like that. That's why their fringes are very long. As with pueblo belts, it's really not the case. It's more I guess it's like a tie thing.

Audience Member: Cool. Thank you so much!

Chasady Simplicio: You're welcome.

Ranger Dan: Well, I know we probably want to beat this storm that might be rolling in here before we get completely soaked here. So, thank you once again for coming and partaking in our Grand Canyon Speaks program and we will see you tomorrow!

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.NPS.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the eleven associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 03 Nov 2023 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/17D7D12D-E0F3-33BC-611A4C6D7A9C535D.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-17DC0E43-AF4F-96B6-1534249838C979F3 The Zuni Youth Enrichment Program Speaks (part 2) Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service The second of a two-part series. In this episode, we talk to an alumnus of the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program, Cassandra Tsalate. A potter, she discusses how she connects to her community through her art and the empowerment she gains through her pottery. 2046 no full 5 1

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah. And the thing, too, about pottery is, yes, over time, it will break. It will diminish. But when it does, that's when you know that its life was its full potential.

Ranger Jonah; Hello, and welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. My name is Ranger Jonah.

Ranger Melissa: And I'm Ranger Melissa.

Ranger Jonah: And, Melissa, this is the second part of our interviews with alumni from the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. This one is with Cassandra Tsalate. She goes by Cassie. Really cool Zuni potter, only 21 years old. Really fun interview, hearing about her connection to community through art.

Ranger Jonah: Excellent. Can't wait to hear it. Without further ado, Cassie.

Cassandra Tsalate: Hi, everybody. My name is Cassie Tsalate, and I'm from the pueblo of Zuni, and I am 21. This is my first time here at the Grand Canyon.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah, and we're excited you're here. You're here with some other folks in the audience representing the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program. You're alumni of that, which is really cool that you're out here, especially you've only been doing this for how long?

Cassandra Tsalate: For at least a year and a half.

Ranger Melissa: So not too long. And your work is already, like, mind blowing how good it is.

Cassandra Tsalate: Thank you.

Ranger Melissa: My first question is how did you get into pottery, and how did you find pottery as you found that talent and that inspiration?

Cassandra Tsalate: Well, as a kid, I've always found an interest in art, basically drawing. I used to draw all the time. But one thing that got to me was seeing how pottery, the symbols, I've always wanted to see what they meant, because my family, they're jewelry makers. And sometimes I will ask them, what does this mean? What does that mean? Sometimes they will give me an answer, sometimes they wouldn't. And so, I grew up with them being more of my inspiration, jewelry makers, but not just jewelry makers, other artists as well. Yeah. And so, with pottery, I recently became an intern at the A:shiwi A:wan Museum. And so, as an intern there, I got to take a look at the older pieces, pieces that were there that were made in the 1600s. And so, with those pieces, I got to really just kind of observe them. And then there was pieces that were coming through that were from the early 1900s, and I got to actually look at those ones.

Ranger Melissa: Oh, cool. Yeah, like, actually handle them?

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, I got to actually handle them. Where I even got a chance to look at some candlesticks and a water jar that was made in the 1920s.

Ranger Melissa: Oh, cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Is that what's inspiring the candle jar you're working on right now?

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah. So with the candle...

Ranger Melissa: Do you mind if I show everybody? Talk about it?

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah. So, about the candlestick holder. Candlesticks weren't introduced until the Spanish arrived, which is the 1600s. And then moving forward into the 1800s, they were made mainly for the art market or possibly for the churches, because we do have Catholicism in our tribe. And so, moving forward, candlestick holders weren't being made, really, because then electricity came into our village and so nobody really makes candlestick holders. And so, I decided maybe I'll bring them back.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool. I like how you're kind of seeing these things that you're looking at in the museum and then trying to bring it back or revitalize some of that culture. What is your favorite part about being inspired by other artwork?

Cassandra Tsalate: My favorite part is the dedication. The dedication it takes for people to work from piece to piece. And it takes a lot. And the cool thing about every artwork is that it's not just one person. It takes a whole family; it takes a whole community to be involved. Like jewelry. Some people have their husbands working on a certain thing. Some people have their wives working on a certain thing. Same thing goes with pottery. And so they just inspire each other to work hand in hand.

Ranger Melissa: That's really cool. So, it's like communal artwork, almost.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, communal, definitely.

Ranger Melissa: It's like everyone's putting in part of it, and then you get this beautiful piece of artwork at the end.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah. So, everybody's involved. Kids, even the youth, all the way to the elders.

Ranger Melissa: That's really cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: You were saying you like looking at the designs and find the meanings. Do you have a favorite design that you have given meaning to?

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, so one of those pieces is not really here, but my favorite designs here would be like, the rainbird. So, the rainbird is this bird that has this hatching on it, and so it represents the rain falling. And so, on this part, like the whole piece, you have here the spiritual world at the top, at the neck. And then you have the middle, which is the present world, and then the bottom, the black part, which is the underneath worlds. And so, my design for the rainbird is that this rainbird touches the water, and it goes into bringing the rain. And through the top part is the spiritual world. And so, the rainbird is going to the left, which it means that the rainbird is going to meet our ancestors. And then through the present world, the rainbird is coming back to bring the rain.

Ranger Melissa: Oh, cool. It's like a cycle.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, it's like a cycle. And then we have here also prayer sticks. Prayer sticks. And of course, the mountains on the rainbow itself that show the heavens and a river that goes in between. Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: That's really cool. What parts of your art are traditional versus contemporary? And how would you define the two of those? For those who don't know what that means.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, so traditional would mainly consist of the actual form. So, for instance, the black on white here, these are more made from the prehistoric times, which our ancestors, the ancestral Puebloans they would be making the black on white, such as this corrugated. And so that was made way back like hundreds of years back.

Ranger Melissa: Corrugated?

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, corrugated is a cooking vessel. It holds the heat in and it's very sturdy too, so it prevents it from overflowing.

Ranger Melissa: Have you tried cooking in it?

Cassandra Tsalate: No, I haven't. With this one I haven't. So that's my next project. And so throughout the years, then you go moving forward to things like this, the rainbird, the water jars, which are more from the 1800s and then going on to more the recent stuff, which is like the 1900s onto today.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Do you have parts of the art that are only in your work? Like, I know that is a Cassie original? Do you do anything like that?

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, I do. For instance, this owl. So, this owl here. Well, owls were actually made 100 years back, but the difference between my owl compared to others is usually owl's beaks will be connected, but mine is different. And then its wings don't expand, it's just kind of tucked in. It's tucked into its side. And then so this is the owl. The owls functioned as seed jars. And these seed jars, they would hold the seeds. A long time ago, when our village would get raided by the outside communities, the nomadic tribes, they come in and would steal the seeds. But in order to protect the seeds, our people then made the owls. The other people, they didn't want to even touch the owls because it was taboo for them. And so, in an innovative way, they put these to hide them. And so, this is how this owl came to be.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Do you mind if I show that one too?

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: And so other things too, that I make that are different are in the designs. I really want to get more into knowing what the designs mean, to interpret it for myself. We really don't know what some of these designs mean and so we're trying to get back into knowing what these designs mean. And so, I come up with things like I call this bird's eye view, which is this abstract version of the sun and then the bird kind of flying into the sky. And then these triangles kind of depicting this geometric figure of a bird flying in the sky.

Cassandra Tsalate: So, they're all different. They all each have their own meanings along with this candlestick. Through all these different designs, there's things that represent the wind forming, which is always like a swirl. And so, the swirl always depicts wind or sometimes water. So, you have that and then you have the earth, which is the black bottoms. But the crazy thing is I never really found out what the symbol for fire really is. And so maybe it's hidden, maybe it's there, but we really don't know. And so, with this candlestick holder, I decided that this part is supposed to be red, so I'm going to paint it red. And then this will mean like, the fire. And this is the clouds. So with fire, sometimes we need fire. And the fire is what also keeps our pottery cooked, so in that way it forms the full life. Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Oh, cool. That's kind of fun, where you have some symbols to work off of, but some symbols where there is nothing defined.

Cassandra Tsalate: So, then you improvise.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. It's kind of cool that you can combine both of them to create these different pieces like you have up here. When you were learning how to do pottery and become a potter, what were some things you noticed from that process of learning the skills from your teachers? And what was all of that like, and what did you really gravitate towards?

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, so the people I have to thank the most are my teachers, who would be Bobby Silas, Hopi potter and Zuni potter, Gaylon Westika. Bobby does more of the traditional, so he does Zuni pottery and his Hopi pottery traditional. He's trying to revive his own work of Hopi pottery. And then Gaylon, he does traditional and contemporary. And so, they taught me how know make the forms, even just like making a big water jar like this, which I struggled in the beginning, I still struggle now. It feels really good to finally see my pieces come together. The other people that I would have to thank would be this pottery class I was taking at the A:shiwi College. And there was a Tesuque potter. There was the famous Noreen Simplicio. And there was Anderson Peynetsa and all these other potters that were barely beginning, but then they excelled as the weeks went by. They were the ones who inspired me as potters. Then we kind of just helped each other work together. They taught me some different techniques, like different coil techniques, different ways of doing things easier. Cheating, I guess you could say so, yeah. They taught me cool tricks.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool. Earlier, we were talking, you collect your own clay, you make your own pigments. Did they show you all of that too? Is that something they taught, or did you have to learn that on your own?

Cassandra Tsalate: No, I always had help from someone. We went as a class to go with ZYEP to go get clay. And then with A:shiwi College, we also did the same thing. We went to go get clay, get slip. We got some pottery shards that was given to one of my teachers from a museum to actually use them, which then kind of made it all the more real within our pottery. And so, we each taught each other, like, this is the best clay deposit to go to. Oh, you should go to here. Even my family members, those who are potters, they even said you should go here and there to show me the places to pick them.

Ranger Melissa: So it goes kind of back to that communal learning, growing, sharing knowledge. That's really cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Exactly.

Ranger Melissa: It doesn't just go into the artwork itself, but how to get to this. It's every step of the way.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, exactly.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool. When you were learning pottery, the role of being a potter in Zuni, can you talk a little bit about that history and how you see your own identity into that role?

Cassandra Tsalate: Okay, so the role of pottery is that a lot of people say that there's not a whole lot of potters, but I would say that there is a lot of potters. Like every family has had a potter or will become a potter. And so being a young person, it really makes this kind of pride that we are trying to bring it back. And so, my role, for me, is to actually make this pottery to use, to actually use the pottery for ceremonies, for everyday use. And so that's what I want to get to. To that point, to get back to how it all started, which was where we actually used the pottery,

Ranger Melissa: Not just putting it on like a mantle, you're like actually putting it in the kitchen or taking it with you and putting seeds in your owls and stuff like that.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah. And the thing too about pottery is, yes, over time it will break. It will diminish. But when it does, that's when you know that its life was its full potential.

Ranger Melissa: Oh, cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah. So it's a cycle.

Ranger Melissa: I like that. And you even said earlier, taking the shards to maybe make new art, new pottery.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, exactly. So it's a circle of life.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Earlier we were talking about kind of like women empowerment too. What is that like, being a potter in Zuni? How does that help your empowerment as a woman?

Cassandra Tsalate: Well, as a woman, well, way back into prehistoric times, it wasn't just women, it was men and women, I would say. And there are some archeologists who have found that men's DNA was on the pottery.

Cassandra Tsalate: It was communal. So, it was very communal because they had to help each other to survive. And so, they worked hand in hand. And then years later, it became more like the women could stay behind while the men went out to go hunt, fish, gather. And so, the women having more of that patience, I guess you would say that they kind of work more on the pottery, even basketry. From there, then it shifted into this part where in the 1800s where gender roles were really established. And that would be where the men know what their work is, and the women know what their work is. And so, the women being the potters, they really worked into their designs, to their meanings, because the men could participate in more of the ceremonial events, whereas the women, they couldn't. And it wasn't to push them back or anything, it was to protect them as well, because women were looked up as very sacred as well. And so, the women, they would put their prayers, their designs, like the deer in the house, and all these different designs, this was their prayers. Asking for the men to have successful hunt, to have their life roads be long, for everyone to be rich in crops and things like that. And so, it was their prayers. And so, as a woman now it's like that idea that we want to bring that empowerment, that it was the women, this was their work, this was their meaning to the community that they were asking for. So it was from through them that we are sustained and through life.

Ranger Melissa: Cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. I really love seeing your pottery and what you're kind of saying, it sounds like full circle in a lot of different facets. And one of them, by putting those prayers and thoughts into your pottery, but creating these things that are also used in the ceremonies and then also used outside, it almost feels full circle in that way too. It's like the woman's empowerment is everywhere when you're thinking about the pottery.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, exactly.

Ranger Melissa: That's really cool. Do you have any inspirational women in your life that are potters?

Cassandra Tsalate: Well, yeah, there are famous potters back home. The most well-known, those would be my grandmothers. I didn't really know their names, but I knew that they made pottery. And so that just kind of inspired me to learn more. Like who were they? How did they work? How long did they work? When did they work? What made them decide to take on this full-time job? So, it was them who inspired me. So, basically, everybody's grandmother was a potter.

Ranger Melissa: That's really cool. So, it's kind of like also pottery is a connection to your ancestors.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: That's really sweet. When you are making a design or a piece of art, how does that image come into your brain? Does it, the clay once you start working the clay that comes into mind? Or is it before you even go and gather material?

Cassandra Tsalate: Well, for me personally, it kind of comes afterwards. Once I've made the pot and I've whipped it, polished it and everything, it takes me a while to come up with my own design. But there are designs that are already known, the most well-known, like the deer in the house, the rainbird design. But when it comes to trying to not really copy, but to make a slight variation, I think it's only more respectful in that way. And so, I try to put it in my own image, and so it's not until afterwards where I kind of draw it on the sketchbook, and I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, this one looks pretty good. And then I look at my pod, and then I start working on it.

Ranger Melissa: I like that. You said earlier you get inspiration from jewelry makers and other painters. Are there aspects of the different crafts that are across the Zuni Artisan Network that you're more drawn to in terms of trying to make a pottery version of that?

Cassandra Tsalate: Oh, yeah. Okay. So, for me, the arts that I'm inspired by are the arts that, like you said, you're going to use. That are actually real from the heart. So that would include jewelry, and basketry, pottery. And so, from that, you get these things that are going to be used. Even weaving, embroidery, those things are real. They're going to be passed down from, as they say, from generation to generation.

Ranger Melissa: And when you're thinking about passing knowledge down, what plans do you have for your own future to that communal artwork? Do you have plans to do anything like that?

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah. So, my plan is to possibly get into teaching. Even learning through this program, I was able to teach my family and other community members, even the adults themselves, they didn't even know some of these things. And so it's really that teaching moment that I really wanted to be a part of, to really teach my community, and so kind of to pass the word, like, what we're really asking for when we're making these pieces. And so that's what I want to do, to get to that point. And then to also then, like I said, teach how to actually start using the pottery, because the pottery, as I say, it's all of our riches. It's all of our life that made us survive all these years. And so, this is where I want us to be. In that mindset. That this is precious. And so that's where I want to stand.

Ranger Melissa: Cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Just curious, was teaching ever a thing you thought you were going to go into, or is it the pottery that really brought that out in you?

Cassandra Tsalate: Well, with teaching, I've kind of wanted to be more like a counselor or more so a park ranger. Yeah. And that really came into my head when I was sort of doing the museum guide thing back at the museum. And I really enjoyed it, just getting to talk to these people and really teach that. But it became even more significant talking about these things with my community, with people that I knew, people that I've known for a while who didn't even know these things. And then I would tell them, and then they're so surprised. "I didn't know you knew that!" So, it kind of helped to get them educated and to also get myself educated, because then it opened conversations to where we talk about the past, and then we're actually, okay, let's actually do it. Let's bring back what needs to be brought back.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. So, this passion of yours. Not only are you discovering this really true talent you have, but you're also finding this other benefit to making pottery, which is you're bringing your community together. But then you're also learning together to kind of revitalize some parts of your culture together.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: That's so special.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, that is special.

Ranger Melissa: That's awesome. In terms of your next steps, what do you want to do then to continue on this path?

Cassandra Tsalate: So, my next step is to really work with the museum.

Ranger Melissa: Cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: I want to actually get to look at the older pieces and to work at just being able to handle them, to respect them, and to share that with other potters as well. Because it's that connection. It's always about the connection. And so, I want to, someday, work in the museums, possibly even donate a couple, and then bring all that what I've learned, and then bring it back home to where I get to teach other artists and to teach my family and then even the children.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah, keep it going.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, to keep it going.

Ranger Melissa: That's great. Keep the line of women in your family making awesome pottery.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Do you have pieces from your great grandmothers? Your grandmothers?

Cassandra Tsalate: Unfortunately. No, I don't. Just pictures.

Ranger Melissa: Cool.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah, just pictures. The other thing about this, too, is the thing I want to do is to make pottery as gifts. So, I want to make enough pottery. I want to be that potter where they just make them all the time to where you can just give them away to the people that meant the most. That mean the most. And so, I want to get to that point to where I give it to them, because, again, it's about giving back. And so, I want to get to that point, of giving them.

Ranger Melissa: Your heart is so kind, and it's great to hear your perspective on everything and how you're bringing your community together. And just it's cool to think about pottery as a way to just build more and more connections with people in and out of your own community. Being here as a demonstrator, it's really fun to watch people come up to everybody and talk about what they're seeing and really make that human-to-human connection.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: It's just cool to see all the work you're doing around all of that. I have one more question, which would be for everyone here. What would your takeaway? What would you want us to leave this space together, knowing in this world?

Cassandra Tsalate: Well, I would like to say that we're still keeping our arts alive. We're still here. Our ancestors would be proud of us right now. Our ancestors who've descended from the Grand Canyon and who've left their legacy behind, who left their arts and things for us to learn from, and that we're still being empowered, that we still have a voice in this, that we're still going to continue this, that our art is going to keep us together as people and to survive. And so that's what I just want people to know, that we're still empowered and we're always going to be.

Ranger Melissa: Awesome. Thanks. Well, thanks so much for coming out. And if anyone wants to come up and take a closer look at any of the work, just be careful. Some of these tables are not stable but thank you so much and hope to see you back here and keep seeing your progression of being a potter. Just get even more cool. It's just fun to see your stuff.

Cassandra Tsalate: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: So thanks.

Cassandra Tsalate: Thank you.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. Round of applause. Even from the back!

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.NPS.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the eleven associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> In this episode, we talk to Grammy-nominated and award-winning Diné, or Navajo, musician Aaron White. The program was cancelled in person by lightning, so this is an online exclusive! Aaron discusses his career, growing up with music, and how he came to be a musician. Later, the discussion turns towards the Native American flute, which Aaron both plays and builds.

]]> Fri, 03 Nov 2023 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/17E60E53-BCEC-02C8-982358C6D929B917.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-17E6FFEF-D53A-A2AE-DBE56E6865A72B63 Aaron White Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service Description: In this episode, we talk to Grammy-nominated and award-winning Diné, or Navajo, musician Aaron White. The program was cancelled in person by lightning, so this is an online exclusive! Aaron discusses his career, growing up with music, and how he came to be a musician. Later, the discussion turns towards the Native American flute, which Aaron both plays and builds. 3791 no full 6 1 In this episode, we talk to Grammy-nominated and award-winning Diné, or Navajo, musician Aaron White. The program was cancelled in person by lightning, so this is an online exclusive! Aaron discusses his career, growing up with music, and how he came to be a musician. Later, the discussion turns towards the Native American flute, which Aaron both plays and builds.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Aaron White: You know, music is a very powerful tool, and I'm just glad to be a part of it. I'm just a little part of it in a very big world that we live in.

Ranger Melissa: Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. My name is Ranger Melissa.

Ranger Jonah: And my name is Ranger Jonah.

Ranger Melissa: Hey, Jonah. Who is this episode with?

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. So, in this episode, I talked with Aaron White. He is an award winning and Grammy nominated musician. He also plays and builds the Native American flute, which is what he did when he came out here to the canyon.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. And this interview is for your ears only. It was actually rained out in person. Inside this area we lost power that day for several hours and had to use flashlights to illuminate the space that we recorded with Aaron at. His music, though, is absolutely beautiful and mesmerizing. He doesn't even need electricity for his acoustics. But hearing about his life story while talking to you, it felt like it came straight from a rock and roll magazine.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah, absolutely. And Aaron also does the theme music for this very podcast series, so we were really honored to have him come speak as well. So, without further ado, Aaron White.

Ranger Jonah: Welcome everybody to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is one of the more unique programs that we've ever done. We were unfortunately stopped from our regular program time due to lightning. So, we are currently sitting in a living room doing this recording, and we are doing this recording because we have such an amazing presenter today. We are talking to the Diné musician and artist, flute maker, among many other things, Mr. Aaron White.

Aaron White: Hello. Good evening.

Ranger Jonah: Well, thank you so much for coming out and doing this. It is certainly the weirdest of the ones that we've done so far, but I think we're going to have fun with it.

Aaron White: I think we just got to take it with a grain of salt.

Ranger Jonah: All right, well, I guess my first question is, where are you from?

Aaron White: Well, I'm from the Northern Ute Reservation, where my mother's from, but I'm also from Kayenta, Arizona. My father is Diné, Navajo. My mother is Northern Ute, but I grew up on and off the reservation, northern California, the Bay area. I was born in Oakland, California, grew up in Niles, California, which was home to the first Hollywood. And I just recently found out I grew up right across the street from the Charlie Chaplin studios where they filmed one of their silent pictures called The Champion, which was black and white. It was a silent picture back in 1915, I think it was. It was a Charlie Chaplin film. But we lived right across the studios, right across the road.

Ranger Jonah: And you never got into filmmaking?

Aaron White: That never happened.

Ranger Jonah: You never got into making talkies?

Aaron White: No. How about that?

Ranger Jonah: So you were a touring musician for 13 plus years. So, how did you first get into music? Did you grow up with it. Was it always around? Of course, in the Bay Area I imagine you had some music around.

Aaron White: Yeah, I grew up with it as far back as I can remember. I was always doing plays, doing live performances. I did one of my first performances with a gentleman by the name of Roy Rogers who had a horse named Trigger. He came to our school and we did a performance for him in Roosevelt, Utah, and this was near the Ute Reservation. And I did a lot of performances as a kid with plays and things like that, but music, as far as I could remember, has always been a big part of my life.

Ranger Jonah: So when you were growing up, was that primarily flute music or guitar? Piano? What was your introduction instrument wise?

Aaron White: It was a little bit of guitar. I remember taking guitar lessons from a gentleman when I was probably, like, around six or seven years old. I first learned basic guitar and how to use my voice. I remember the first song I ever did was probably (How Much Is) That Doggie in the Window? Which is an old American classic. And then I was doing a song by a gentleman named Glenn Campbell. Galveston was a piece that I had done, and my mother used to take me to a restaurant in Roosevelt, and I would sing for tips when I was just a little kid.

Ranger Jonah: So you really have been working as a musician since the early days?

Aaron White: Yeah, I never saw any of that money. (Laughter)

Ranger Jonah: Where did all that happen to go? So you've always grown up with music, and then, of course, your main touring group was Burning Sky, right?

Aaron White: Yeah. My first professional, I guess, gig was when I was in the military. I was 17, and I had a band called Excalibur, and I just recently had been in contact with an old drummer friend who was part of the group. And we were a military band that was based out of Schofield Barracks, Hawai'i. And we played at all the EM clubs. Kaneohe Marine Base, Pearl Harbor, Hickam Air Force Base, Barber's Point, around the island of Oahu. Then we also did some clubs in Waikiki and Pearl City and around the island, and we were only, like, 18 years old. We were playing in a rock band.

Ranger Jonah: Having a good time, I imagine.

Aaron White: Yeah, it was great. That name is Homero Chavez, and he got a hold of me through Facebook and found out he made a career out of music as well. So out of all the members in a band, two of us chose to have music as a career.

Ranger Jonah: Are you expecting a future collaboration to come out soon?

Aaron White: We talked about it; you know. He's out in L.A. He worked with a lot of different groups and recording artists, and we just kind of compared where we were at, and we met in Southern California. We were actually on a vacation going back to Hawai'i. And so, we stopped in and had dinner with him and his wife. So, kind of a little, you know, I was looking at old photos that he had of us, and I mean, we were just kids.

Ranger Jonah: Just rocking out!

Aaron White: Just having a great time and serving in the military as well.

Ranger Jonah: Well, so you're serving in the military. You're starting with these sorts of rock and roll bands in the beginning, and how does that develop from there? What's the next step?

Aaron White: Well, I had always played music, like I said, learned from a lot of different people. And being in the Bay Area, we were always surrounded by music. I remember seeing the Escobedo family playing at this place called Lake Merritt in downtown Oakland. The Escobedo family being Sheila E. And her family. Her father was a pretty well known musician and was playing with different groups. Malo, which was a very big band at the time. In the 70s, we'd see a lot of different groups that were up and coming. Some of the bands that came out of the Bay Area like Journey, Santana, Craig Chiquico from Jefferson Airplane, Jefferson Starship. Just so many different people in the Bay Area. Such a big influence. We'd have bands come to our high school during lunch and they would play for the students. And one of those bands in the beginning was a gentleman by name of Brad Gillis, who went on to play with Night Ranger and Rubicon. I was always surrounded by music or musicians, and great musicians at that. Yeah, being there when people were first starting out, it's a pretty big influence.

Ranger Jonah: So how did they influence you? Did they influence you from a touring life perspective as you sort of saw them develop and grow, or from a musicianship perspective?

Aaron White: Just seeing them performing and them having showmanship and good songs and things like that.

Aaron White: Well, good songs do tend to help. Makes the music process a little bit easier. You know, you grew up with all of this different influence. What was the kind of music that you were listening to?

Aaron White: I listened to everything. I mean, I listened to everything from Tower of Power to Weather Report to Sammy Hagar, Black Sabbath, ACDC. Growing up, my father listened to a lot of country. Waylon Jennings. Just no matter where I was, I was always surrounded. Like I said, with music, music was just something that was always there.

Ranger Jonah: So did you tend to connect with one sort of genre more than another?

Aaron White: Probably. Rock music was a big thing. And being a singer fronting a band at the age of 18, it was an experience, you know, facing people. We played at some pretty historic places. The old Haleiwa Theater in Haleiwa on the north shore of Oahu, opening up for different people that came to the island, or playing in clubs where places would just be packed with people. There'd be two or three bands playing in one night, and in Hawai'i, the clubs back then would stay open until four in the morning and the legal drinking age was 18. So people who graduated from high school on the mainland came to Hawai'i to celebrate their graduations, a bunch of crazy 18 year olds. And then when the clubs would close down at four in the morning, people would pour into the streets and stuff. It was just pretty amazing time.

Ranger Jonah: Wow. Yeah, I'd say. I'm not sure where you can find that these days. So, what are your next steps? The group that was playing in Oahu that was named Excalibur? Where does Excalibur go? When does that start to phase into the next group?

Aaron White: Well, we all were finishing our military service, so we all went our separate ways and then I did a lot of solo things. I mean, I was playing.

Ranger Jonah: So, at the end of Excalibur, you knew that you were going to be a musician, this is what you were doing.

Aaron White: Definitely.

Ranger Jonah: You were filling the clubs till 4:00 A.M.

Aaron White: Yeah, and I moved back to the mainland after being in Hawai'i for a while. And then I got home to the Ute reservation, and I just started doing local gigs working with performing arts center in Salt Lake City. They had a big celebration for songwriters and things like that. So, I would go know, and it was a two-hour bus ride, so I would take my guitar and go out to Salt Lake City and do gigs every now and then with festivals, and then I would go back. And I knew that staying on the reservation, there wouldn't be any opportunity to play music live or anything. So, I moved to Salt Lake and started just gigging around different places, playing places for tips and things. And then I moved from there to Oklahoma City where my dad was living, and I was playing music there. I had a couple of bands that were just kind of just bouncing around playing music and everything. Then I moved to Southern California, and back to Northern California, and then I moved back to Arizona where my father was from and that's where I met my wife Marilyn, and she actually got me my first solo gig in Arizona.

Ranger Jonah: Oh wow. So where was the first place that you played in Arizona?

Aaron White: It was up on the Hopi Reservation. And my wife was a producer slash person.

Ranger Jonah: She had connections?

Aaron White: Yeah, she had a gentleman with Jacob Coyne that she had worked with. She was doing productions for models. She was doing some modeling herself down in Phoenix and she had done a production called It's Our Time and so that was kind of a big production that she had done. And she had moved back to Northern Arizona from Phoenix, and we met.

Ranger Jonah: It worked out?

Aaron White: She liked my music that I did. So, she got me this gig through her friend Jacob Coyne and then from there it just went off and we did our thing.

Ranger Jonah: Right on. So, during this time, are you still just playing acoustic guitar? Have you started to play the flute or has that not come into the picture yet?

Aaron White: No. We got married and we had kids, and I was just kind of milling around. We'd moved to Flagstaff, and I was milling around, and I had gotten a job working for Coca Cola Bottling Company and I had been playing on the side up on the reservation in Chinle, Arizona. And I was playing in Gallup, New Mexico at some of the clubs, just doing like some solo acoustic stuff. And then I was playing with a few people. And then when I finally just got tired of working the corporate life, I was going back and forth between Flagstaff and Chinle and I decided that if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it. So, I went and got somebody together, did a demo and had an idea of creating music around the Native American flute. So, I had mentioned to a friend of mine what I was trying to do and so he had directed an individual to myself named Kelvin Bizahaloni who was a flute player. And so, he came over to my house and we sat and I had him play some lines on the flute and kind of try to figure out what keys that the Native American flute could possibly be played along with guitar accompaniment.

Aaron White: And so, we did a demo and then we went to a place called Mudshark Studios in Flagstaff and we cut a two-song demo, a vocal song and a flute song. And so, there was a vocal song I had written a while back that I had recorded, and I thought probably be kind of neat to do it with a Native American flute. So, the flute he had was kind of based between an F sharp and an E minor. And so, I figured out the chord progression in what the scale was for a pentatonic scale. And then we went in the studio, and we did this recording and a friend of ours, a mutual friend, had heard the demo and took it down to Canyon Records and had played it for a gentleman named Robert Doyle and we ended up getting a record deal from it.

Ranger Jonah: Wow. So, you know, I think that leads straight into, you know, whether it be that demo or the work that you would go on to create later, what does the process for you look like to create that kind of music? To create music incorporating the Native American flute?

Aaron White: Well, for me, melodies always seem to come naturally and hearing each note that's played, whatever scale a flute is in, I always kind of imagine and can feel it and hear it and be able to express it in any sort of mode or shape or form musically. And the first record we did was self-titled Burning Sky. And all the songs on that basically were based around the guitar. So, the flutes, the percussion, and all of the music that had been done on the first recording had basically been coming from a couple of tours in California. The first gig we did was the Native American Music Festival. And the first gig we did as a duo was at this thing called Stars in the Desert in Tuba City. And then we were asked to do the music festival in Oakland, California. And then while we were in Oakland, we got a call from somebody because no one had really heard that music at that time in 1992. The only other person I think that was doing music similar was probably our Carlos Nakai with guitar and flute. And so, we flew down to Malibu and we did this festival up at this place called Wright's Ranch, which was Frank Lloyd Wright's place, the architect.

Aaron White: And so, we were there, and I think we had done that first show with Melissa Manchester and a couple of other artists that were pretty big in the 70s and 80s. We met a gentleman there by the name of Michael Bannister, who at the time had just finished a recording with a gentleman from a band called the Plimsolls. And he was from Buffalo, New York. And the gentleman's name was Peter Case. And the Plimsolls were kind of a big group, sort of like a 90s new wave or an 80s new wave band. And we met him at the festival, and it was just me and Kelvin that were just playing, so it was just flute and guitar. And then this gentleman just happened to be moving to Flagstaff, so we met him, and he was a really good drummer. I mean, he had played with Lucinda Williams, he had played with a lot of well-known musicians. And so we got together with him and I showed him the songs that we were doing and we added the percussions to it. And that's basically how the trio of Burning Sky was formed, right. Just from traveling around, meeting people.

Ranger Jonah: Wow. That's how all great things happen, right? There needs to be a little element of spontaneity.

Aaron White: Yeah.

Ranger Jonah: So, when actually you've got this group together, how do you guys begin to write your music?

Aaron White: Well, like I said, a lot of it was based around the guitar, so I would come up with the melodies and the different changes, and we would just add the flute and kind of direct the flute player through.

Ranger Jonah: Now, was this the same flute every time or did they use a different flute?

Aaron White: I was using different flutes, A minor flutes and Bs and different modes. Anything that the native flute was based off in those pentatonic scales. And so, we just began to just create. I mean, we did the first record, Burning Sky. We did the second record, which was Blood of the Land. And so, we had done six recordings with Canyon Records, Burning Sky, Blood and Land Creation, Simple Man, Spirits in the Wind. And we did another one for a bigger label called Rykodisc, which was Enter the Earth. And we had a lot of influences that came along with Spirits in the Wind. We had John Densmore from The Doors who did some percussions on it and did a spoken word on the recording and that was the one that we were nominated for a Grammy for. And then Enter the Earth we did with Justin Valenzuela from the Gin Blossoms and so he did some guitar tracks. And the second recording, Blood of the Land, we had rerecorded a song that was written by Bruce Cockburn called Indian Wars and we ended up doing that with him at the Verde Valley Show with Jackson Browne and a bunch of other musicians. So we were starting to really build momentum of playing in a lot of different places and collaborating with a lot of different people.

Aaron White: And what was kind of cool about the Jackson Browne Festival was Jackson had heard our music and Bruce Cockburn had told him about us and thought it would be great for us to open up the festival. And then after we got done with that, Jackson Browne ended up coming to us afterwards and offered his studio in Santa Monica and gave us like three days of free recording time at his studio. So, we did that and ended up recording a bunch of stuff at his place.

Ranger Jonah: That's incredible.

Aaron White: Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Ranger Jonah: I bet. So, in terms of the music that's on these albums, how much did improvisation play? I mean, you're talking a lot about how you needed to form these songs around the flute, around these pentatonic scales, which for those on the recording that may not know what that means, it's sort of a simplification of a major scale or a minor scale. It allows for a lot of different variety because the notes flow together very easily. So, you are writing these songs. Does improvisation come into your songwriting at this point, or do you know what you're going to do and then put it down?

Aaron White: Yeah, I think the improv happens before. Because you're gathering ideas. Like I'll sit at home, and I'll tune my guitar to standard tuning, or I'll tune it to maybe a different tuning, open tuning, drop tuning, drop D, open G, even doing slide work with slide guitar. And I'll just come up with all these melodies and just work and I can hear what the flute is going to do with the chords that I'm playing. So, I'm basically feeling my way around it first in the writing process and then I'll come in with the flute after I lay down my guitar tracks and I'll just kind of direct if I'm working with another flute player. This is what I would like for you to do. I would like you to maybe play very slow here, let it drag out, play a little bit of fast here, maybe draw these lines and weave in and out of the notes and things like that. So, when I'm creating the music, I hear it all in my headfirst. Right. And then I start kind of just maybe improvising with myself. And then by the time we get to the studio, I already know what I need to do. And hopefully the people that I'm working with.

Ranger Jonah: Just lay it down. Don't want to waste Jackson Browne's time.

Aaron White: Exactly. I won't be wasting studio time or nothing. And the people that I'm working with, hopefully they'll consciously connect with that and stuff and it'll all come together.

Ranger Jonah: Right. And I'm sure that takes a lot of trust between a band to have a cohesive unit.

Aaron White: Yeah. You have to really feel it. You have to feel your way through it. It's almost like you just have to become... You have to have the same vision. In the recording process, there was a recording we did, which was the third record, and we did a piece for a winery in Santa Barbara, California, called Zaca Mesa Winery. They wanted us to do a theme of how they grew grapes. So, they grow grapes using earth, wind, sun, rain. So, there were four elements that were involved with it. And so, we created this thing, this…

Ranger Jonah: Tune?

Aaron White: Like a bouquet of songs. We put together the first intro, which was Earth. So that was the first time I ever used the synthesizer. I used the synthesizer to sync everybody together. And then we started with the flute with the synthesizer, then brought in the percussions, then brought in the guitar. And then after we finished that piece, we did a piece called Wind. And so, with that, we opened up with just the flute and brought in the percussions. And then I added some bass lines and then guitar. And then we did rain. And so, we created a piece that would have to do with a storm or something that would be a representation of water and moisture and things like that. And then we did sun, which was basically about growth and nourishment and all this stuff. And we put these four pieces together and we did like 15 minutes of each song, and we just went with this whole theme and we played it for the company. They loved it and they were selling it at their winery for their customers and stuff. So, it was a commissioned piece to do and then the record label ended up releasing it and that was probably one of our second best-selling recordings.

Aaron White: Wow. And all from the growing of grapes.

Aaron White: Yeah.

Ranger Jonah: The beginning of any great story. So, when you're putting this feel into the music, you're sort of looking to articulate the rain or the sun or the soil or the earth. What is the process for that? Is it just sitting down and saying, how can I represent this, or is there a more detailed sort of approach?

Aaron White: I think when I'm doing that, the themes that I come up with, with the music. What recording were you guys listening to?

Ranger Melissa: All of them.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah, we listened to quite a few. I think we listened to most of Simple Man.

Aaron White: Okay, so Simple Man didn't have any percussion in it. It was mostly just guitar, bass, and flute. And then there was a vocal piece at the very end, which is self-titled Simple Man. And so, what I did with that was I spent a lot of time using alternate tunings for some of the songs. And when I do alternate tunings, you have to go into a whole different frame of mind of using strings, drone strings, coming up with interesting chord structures, but yet it still has to play into the part of how's the flute going to adapt to this? What's it going to do with the flute? How is it going to change? Because the modes that you're using with the flute, to me, the Native American flute becomes like a chameleon. It shapes. When you take theory, there's a thing called a circle of fifths. So, you connect minor modes, sharps flats, quarters, eight, just different shapes of notes. And so, you want to keep it within that. But then also you let the voice of the flute kind of take hold of whatever structure that you're doing with chord progressions or lines that you're drawing, going from maybe a minor to a major and letting it just feel its way through, if that makes any sense.

Ranger Jonah: Sure.

Aaron White; But you really have to have an open mind and you really have to listen when you're doing it and making sure that it just really has a good flow, a really nice groove to it.

Ranger Jonah: Definitely. So, what role as you're developing this music, and clearly a lot of it is inspired by theory. The circle of fifths, the understanding of the flute through the pentatonic scale. How does Western or sort of the Western notation system interfere perhaps with your music? Do you write your songs down? Is there tablature for the flute or is it sort of just the base of understanding and then you work from there.

Aaron White: It's kind of just the base of understanding. I mean, I've seen transcriptions of my music and the time signatures, you know, that we're creating these into. You always want to try to not be redundant in what you're doing because sometimes in pop music, majority of chord progressions that are used in pop music are like two to three chords. It's very repetitive. And you don't want to do that with the flute. You kind of want to always expand and create space. You want to create a mood. And you're speaking without words. You're making somebody feel something without words. And it's basically through the melody and through the progression of how the song is and time signatures play a big part of that. Whether it's fast, whether it's slow, whether it's very soothing, whether it's very aggressive, however you want it to be right? All of that is creating a feeling and a language all its own.

Ranger Jonah: And it allows the musicians to communicate.

Aaron White: You play off of one another and everything and it all just falls into place.

Ranger Jonah: Absolutely. So, in terms of Native American flute music, as an instrument and as a culture perhaps around the instrument, the music the culture around the music. In a lot of genres, you have sort of the same tunes get played again and again. In Jazz, you have the Big Book. In Bluegrass, you have sort of a pretty set canon that people know and bring to the table. In the world of Native American flute music is it just individual artists writing their own songs and bringing it to the table or is there perhaps a culture or canon that everybody kind of relates to, songs that everybody knows?

Aaron White: Well, I think in Native American music you have your traditional set songs like, say, for instance, Zuni Sunrise is a common song that was played amongst a lot of different flute makers or flute players. R Carlos Nakai did it. There’re the older flute players that were Doc Nevaqueya. You had Howard Rainer, you had Red Ute, who was Eddie Box Sr. You had Sonny Tonikov White from Oklahoma. You had a lot of these old flute players, and they were very familiar with the traditional songs. Kevin Locke from the Lakota Nation. Robert Tree Cody. You had a lot of these guys that knew these traditional songs and they would play them in their live performances. And Nakai recorded Zuni Sunrise. And there's prayer songs, there's healing songs. There's songs of meditation and songs of love. Songs of compassion. Songs of a loved one passing. There are so many different meanings and different expressions of how a flute player would approach creating a flute song and courting songs. The Lakota Nation, the Plains Indians, even Navajo love songs. Zuni songs. Pueblo, Hopi. I mean, Apache. There's so many different types and genres of the native flute using a five hole, a four-hole, six-hole, three-hole flutes. There's so many different facets and I think what connects all of those is the social songs that are played. Or someone hears somebody doing one thing, they'll maybe change a little around and add their own little thing to it. Get inspired. Be inspired. And the traditional songs, they remain traditional songs. They're not changed in any shape or form.

Ranger Jonah: Right.

Aaron White: We were talking about the Hopi Flute Society. Up on Hopi. They have old traditional songs that are played only during the time when the Kokopelli deities come around during the home dances in the summer. Or you have the maiden songs, you have the sunrise songs, you have songs for harvest or birth and a lot of different meanings. And these songs that are played amongst the Hopi people, they're kept within the village. They're not played outside of the village or anything like that because they're considered very sacred. And then you have your improvisation. People just get up and feel inspired or something, and they just go with it. But there's just so many different genres of music within Native we're just talking just Native flute music. I mean, there's drum songs and rattle songs, bird songs, sundance songs, bear dance songs.

Ranger Jonah; Hard to define different genres.

Aaron White: Yeah, different for occasions. People don't realize how big or how much music there is amongst Native American music. I mean, I'm just talking southwest right now.

Ranger Jonah: Right.

Aaron White: You go northeast, west, whatever. There's just so much.

Ranger Jonah: Right. One of the things that you would later go on to do is actually start building these flutes. So, how did the transition go? Did you come off the road before you started building flutes?

Aaron White: Yeah, we had taken a break between recordings, and I'd always been curious on how the flute worked, how the tone was. And playing with Kelvin, I was always wanting to, you know, figure out different ways of expression. You know, for a flute musician to be able to play with accompaniment, whether it was piano, whether it was guitar, whether it was just percussion, and flute or bass and flute and even experimenting with harmonica and flute, saxophone, and flute. There are all these different ideas that I would have. And the only way I would figure out how it would work was by making them.

Ranger Jonah: Doing it yourself! Just like from the very beginning, you got to get out on the road and get it done.

Aaron White: So, I started just experimenting in my garage and creating the instrument. And the first ones I did were straight through. They weren't like the standard flute with the block or the bird on top. They were just like a little notch, kind of like a quena flute from South America. And so I just got what I had available, and I figured it out. I looked at the flute, and I thought, you know, I could figure this out. And so I did it, and just through trial and error, started creating it. And then after creating it and getting down the basics, then it came time for, well, I can make it sound better. I can make more clarity. I can make it to where it's not as wispy as some flutes were, that you had more wind and you could hear a person blowing, it'd be very wispy. And my whole thing was clarity. And so, I got to the point to where I was able to make it sound even louder, and you can make it sound really hard, you can make it sound really soft. You could do all these different things. So, it was a process. But after years of doing it and creating it, I went from making single flutes to making drone flutes. And the drone flute thing was strictly by experimentation. I don't think there was very many people at the time when I started making drone flutes that were making drone flutes.

Ranger Jonah: Could you define a drone flute?

Aaron White: A drone flute is two flutes in one, which basically you have one flute on one side, which is five hole or six hole. And the first notes have to match, completely match. Otherwise, there's a little wavering. It has to sound like one note. Then when you lift off your finger to form the second note, then the drone note kicks in, which is basically the lowest note of the flute. And then when you blow a little harder, you can kick up to an octave higher, which would be the highest note of a flute. So, you have that five note, that five scale notation. So, you had your lowest and your highest note, and everything in between would basically match what that drone would sound like, and it would give it a whole different sound. And, I mean, drone flutes have been around since the time of the Mayans and the Aztecs, even going back to the Egyptian Roman Empire, 300 BC. They were putting two reeds together from the Nile and creating, experimenting with dual sounds, dual tones and everything. Then the Mayans and the Aztecs were making clay flutes that were multi-chambered instruments, maybe a high pitch whistle on the side or a bird whistle, and then a deep sounding flute, and then a mid-range sort of tone that they were creating out of clay flutes and things like that. So, it just came from being inspired by wanting to create more sound.

Ranger Jonah: Definitely. And putting that pentatonic scale on the bass note. It allows for a variety of different sort of sounds and modes. I was wondering if you could give us an example of maybe sort of the diversity in sound, perhaps the different kinds of expression that you could get from just a few small tweaks.

Aaron White: So this is really interesting. So, we're talking like a drone flute. So, you have two flutes in one. One on one side plays like a standard flute. The other side plays that one drone note, whether it's low drone or a high drone. So, if you play the two together, I'll play the single note of the flute first. (Flute plays)

Aaron White: So, the bottom with the two together sounds like one note. It's a single flute by itself, both of them together. So, when I release that first finger, the first hole. (Flute plays) So you have this second note, and you have the drone, which plays the bottom. (Flute plays) Then if I blow a little harder, I could go an octave higher. So, it sounds the same as the highest note, two notes in one. So that's what you have.

Ranger Jonah: Well, I imagine that building one of these to make those notes sound, they have to be perfect.

Aaron White: They have to be perfect. And if you make a mistake, it's just firewood. (Laughter)

Ranger Jonah: Start again!

Aaron White: Yeah.

Ranger Jonah: So, when you first started building these flutes, you first started building them for yourself, obviously, like, something like this would be very calculated and making sure that all the measurements are right, right?

Aaron White: Yes.

Ranger Jonah: So, is that the same for the single chamber flutes?

Aaron White: Yeah, it's the same with the single chamber. For me, tone is everything. So, you have to have a really good tone. You have to have a really good sound. And when you're creating a flute, say, for instance, you have it really wispy sounding, so it sound like this. (Flute plays) But if I move the block back, I can make it a little sharper. (Flute plays, sharper.) So, you hear the wind a little bit in that. But when you are making it to where the pressure of how you're blowing doesn't become more of like a swooshing sound, you get more of a clear note.

Ranger Jonah: And you're all about that clear, that tone.

Aaron White: Yeah. The clarity to me is really important. The old traditional flutes, they were very wispy sounding because they were made with two pieces of wood, like a tree branch split in half. Then the inside was either carved out or burned out with hot embers from a fire. And then they would put it back together with tree sap. Then they would tie it off with leather straps all the way across. So, if you look at old photos of flutes, like from a collection, like maybe the Smithsonian or something, you always see strands of hide tied every so far apart. That's basically the clamps holding it together. Because tree sap would only last so long. Because you got so much moisture blowing through the flute. I mean, your body temperature is what, 98.6? So that's pretty hot, especially with moisture coming out of your out of your body. So that moisture has to dissipate somewhere. So, it would either dissipate through the walls of the wood, or it would just flow through. And then whatever's left, you have this leftover condensation and everything. So it's going to seep into the wood, and you have that enough times, your base is going to fall apart if it's not put together very well. And so the old flutes, they tied all those strands along the body so that would hold the flute together, and you wouldn't have as much seepage through it. And I'm sure somebody figured it out through trial and error, that the best way we can do this is you do it. Or some of the old flutes would split after a while from the moisture because they weren't maybe treated or sealed inside, or maybe they were still kind of green and then dried out a little bit or something. So there's just a lot of different factors that go in. But moisture plays a big part of how long a flute is going to last.

Ranger Jonah: Definitely. And you mentioned this before we started doing this taping about potentially using the human body to measure these flutes out.

Aaron White; Yeah, you know, there were so many different theories going back to the time of our ancestors, the anasazi. I was told through an old flute maker that using the hand and using the arm, the length of the arm played a big part on how the notes were formed and shaped. Using a fingers width between each hole, whether it was four, five, six hole flute, that the finger measurement between each hole would be consistent. And that's how you were able to create more or less close to a pentatonic scale by doing that, and then maybe a measurement of a whole hand's width to the very first hole, and then however long you wanted it to be from the stem, from the block. So that's the old method of creating them. Now, of course, you just measure it off and, you know, how far get the holes need to be out. Yeah, but, I mean, again, if you want to talk about old tunings of them, there was really no tunings. It was basically, however, people felt that the flutes were made and everything, so that played a big part in how the sound would be. Lakota flutes were five hole flutes. Plain's flutes were five hole flutes. Six hole flutes didn't really come around until maybe European influence during the time after the 1400s and going into the 15th, 16th century, 17th century, the 18th century, I think, really started to change because there was more Europeans coming to the Americas. And their influence, the theory of music, of western music and things like that. You know, they were taught to maybe Native people that maybe had a talent that they saw, and they were more fascinated by the music than anything. There was a lady by the name of Francis Densmore who was an ethnomusicologist for the Smithsonian from 1910 to about 1932? 36? And she basically recorded any music that Native American people were making. So she traveled around the country with the Edison machine, horseback, buggy, train. She hiked into thick wooded areas to see a medicine man or a medicine woman to record a song. She was the only, maybe, white person that was able to attend a ceremony because they knew that she was doing something of importance by recording it. And so the term was people singing into the can or the flange, whatever. And she would use the old black cylinders, and she would hand crank, and then she would take them back and catalog them at the Smithsonian.

Aaron White: She would transpose the rhythms and the patterns onto sheet music so American composers could use them in creating new works of orchestrations and things like that. So she played a big, vital part in preserving a lot of music. And so, as the years went on, I think the Smithsonian, somebody went back to the archives, and they wanted to pull out one of the wax cylinders and found out they were deteriorating, so they had to digitize as much as they could. Smithsonian Folkways did a great job. And you can listen on Smithsonianfolkways.org and listen some of the old recordings. You can hear the crackling of the wax cylinders and things like that. And I think the first Native American flute song that was recorded was 1932 or 34 from a gentleman from Montana. Very simplistic in his delivery of how he played the song. He thought out the notes that he would choose to play and everything. And there's just so much history that's based around a very simple instrument.

Ranger Jonah: Absolutely. And who knows the sort of unsaid or untold influence that those recordings would go on to have over the course of the entire world's music. So you're making these flutes today. What are these flutes made of?

Aaron White; The flutes I was doing today were made out of river cane. So I had come up with an idea of resources. I mean, wood is getting more expensive now. Price of things are going up. So I had gotten a couple of pieces of river cane from a friend, and he wanted me to see if I could make some flutes out of them. And so I had a guy that sent me some stuff from Florida, sent me some cane, and I thought, what could I use? What could I create out of these? And how could I go about doing it? And again, you know, I just figured through seeing some old flutes that were old Hopi flutes. And I actually repaired a ceremonial flute that the museum of Northern Arizona had in their collection. So I repaired it, and I was looking at it, I'm thinking, oh, this would be kind of cool. And you could tell it was carved by a knife with the holes and everything. And it had a gourd at the very end, like a sunflower. It was a ceremonial flute, it had some eagle feathers tied to it. And I repaired it and gave it back to the guy the gentleman had brought it over from the museum. And so I just got the idea. Nobody's really making cane flutes. I've run into a few guys that were doing them, and I asked them, how did you go about doing this? Sometimes they won't tell you what they're doing.

Ranger Jonah: Secrets of the trade.

Aaron White: Yeah. So I figured it out, and I started getting cane. And I was invited to do a flute making workshop down on the Yavapai Apache reservation. And so a gentleman by the name of Don Decker had invited me down, and I went and harvested some river cane, and I made some very small flutes for a bunch of kids in the community. And it was a summer program, so I just started from there. And then I kind of was playing music a little bit more, so I kind of put it on the shelf for a little bit, and then I came back to it. And the first ones I made were basically really different than the ones I do now. And so, I started thinking about how can I make it simple to where people could actually do a workshop?

Ranger Jonah: Right.

Aaron White: And so I just kind of went from there and started making them the way I make them now. And was able to make them a little faster, make them to where they sound good and everything. So people who take my flute classes, they see a plain piece of river cane, and then it's really funny seeing the expressions on their faces when they hear the first note being played out of something that they were helping shape and form.

Ranger Jonah: Which to them was just a plant they picked out a few minutes before.

Aaron White: Yeah, exactly. So, it just all went from there. And this is what I do today.

Ranger Jonah: So, you've gotten off the road, you're not touring right now.

Aaron White: I'm kind of on and off, not completely off.

Ranger Jonah: So, you're on and off the road. Where do you teach these flute classes?

Aaron White: I do a class five days a week at Clear Sky Resorts, which is over in Valley, and it's like an eco-dome glamping resort.

Ranger Jonah: Sure.

Aaron White: And then I do them at the Heard Museum. I get commissioned to do some flute classes for students from the surrounding communities. Gila River to O'odham, Maricopa. Tribes that are down there in the valley. Or I'll go up to Crazy Horse up in South Dakota. I'll go to the Southwest Museum in Tucson. The Petroglyph Museum in North Phoenix. Wherever people that want to do the workshops, I'll go there.

Ranger Jonah: Like the Grand Canyon!

Aaron White: Yeah, spend a couple of days and do things.

Ranger Jonah: Thank you so much for doing this interview, for coming to the Grand Canyon, for showing off your flute making, your playing, your instrumentation, and telling your story here, even when the weather doesn't maybe cooperate with the kind of program that we want to give. For our audience at home, I wonder if you have one final takeaway or one thing after listening to this that maybe you would like people to walk away and remember from having heard this.

Aaron White: I think preservation of cultural instruments is very important. Preserving the culture is very important. I think no matter what culture you come from; language is important. The history, learning and knowing who you are in this world and wearing it like a badge of honor, your culture, some people search a lifetime to find out who they really are. Sometimes you discover it through music, sometimes you discover it through literature. Sometimes you discover it through lost family members, loved ones. Sometimes you just discover it on your own. And to me, all of us are indigenous to this world, in this planet. We all have a purpose, and we all have the power to preserve what is here. For us to preserve and to preserve for the next generation and the generation after that. We all are indigenous, we all walk under the same sun, we walk under the same earth, we all live under the same sky. And to me, music is medicine. Music is a blessing, and it brings people together. It breaks down walls and barriers of race and color and language when you play a note. And it's something that connects with another human being. That, to me, is probably the first step in communication with people that are maybe different, but maybe not so different. Music is a very powerful tool and I'm just glad to be a part of it. I'm just a little part of it in a very big world that we live in. And coming to places like this, like the Grand Canyon to share with people from all walks of life, from different countries around the globe, it's a beautiful thing. And I thank you guys for letting me be a part of it.

Ranger Jonah; Yeah, well, thank you for coming and thank you for being a part of everything here at Grand Canyon. We really appreciate it.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.NPS.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the eleven associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Fri, 03 Nov 2023 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/17EFAF4A-09C8-9BA0-F7063EAEDBC6A64C.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-17F16AC0-9A5B-7D7F-E11B5C6CAFA60713 Gregory Hill Speaks Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service In this episode, we talk to Gregory Hill, a Hopi carver and toymaker. The conversation revolves around Gregory’s efforts to bring back a forgotten toy, the Patukya. His toys work to bring adults back to feeling childlike wonder, and Gregory’s efforts have even encouraged other carvers to start creating tops! 3047 no full 7 1

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Gregory Hill: I turned to making these because I just want to have that feeling in the world, there's just so many crazy things happening, like now. And I want to combat all the negative things in the world by creating something that's going to bring joy to the world, you know?

Ranger Jonah: Hello. Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. My name is Ranger Jonah.

Ranger Melissa: And I'm Ranger Melissa.

Ranger Jonah: So, Melissa, you did this episode. Who did you do this episode with?

Ranger Melissa: Yeah, I interviewed Gregory Hill, who's a Hopi toy maker. I really enjoyed this episode because he dives into this concept of work leading to play and how we all should learn to be more playful in our adult lives and reach into that inner child, which he called kid magic. It was really cool giving this interview because even during this talk, he was actually making toys while we were talking to the audience. So, it's kind of cool and you might actually hear that in the recording today.

Ranger Jonah: Yeah. So, in fact, one of the things he talks about is how the toys that he makes are traditional, but recently they haven't really been made. They sort of stopped being made. It was sort of a forgotten toy. And Greg has a lot of passion for bringing this toy back, and that is just so cool.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. He even said that by making these toys, other carvers in his community are also looking to bring these toys back, which is super exciting. So, I really hope everyone enjoys this episode. Without further ado, Gregory Hill.

Ranger Melissa: All right, everybody. Well, it's that time, so we're going to get started and I'm sure people will mosey on over. But my name is Melissa, I work here at Grand Canyon National Park. We have Gregory Hill right here. He is a self-proclaimed nerd I found out earlier today. He is also a twin which we just found out, which is really cool. He's from Hopi and he also makes tops. How do you say it in Hopi?

Gregory Hill: In Hopi, we call it patukya.

Ranger Melissa: A patukya.

Gregory Hill: Patukya. The actual spinning motion of it is called riyanpi. So, riyanpi is like that spinning motion that we make. Like if you stood up and start spinning- riyanpi. But this is the toy. It's called a patukya. So, the actual toy thing is called a patukya.

Ranger Melissa: Which is really exciting that we are exploring this because I also really enjoy Gregory's influence in terms of the power of play, really trying to bring play into art, which is really cool. We're going to explore this through a pilot program or a program we call Grand Canyon Speaks here where we invite people from the eleven traditionally associated tribes of Grand Canyon to share their voice and authentically be themselves with visitors like you all to Grand Canyon National Park. So, we will get started and I will start asking fun questions. And then at the end, I'll open the floor up for questions from y'all. And so, we'll kind of work through that together. My first question is, we keep saying Hopi, but could you explain where you're from and where that is located for people who might not know?

Gregory Hill: Gee, where are we at now? Okay, so Flagstaff, right? The San Francisco Peaks? Hopi would be due east right here, like, maybe 63 miles. You'd come upon a place called Tuba City. So, Tuba City is, like, on the Navajo reservation, but that's, like, the edge of the border for the Hopi and Navajo Reservation. So, highway 89 runs to Tuba City, but on this side of the road is the start of the Hopi Reservation. So, you'd come upon a village called Mùnqapi. So, if you keep going east on highway 264, you'll come, like, maybe 45 minutes further east, you'll come into another village called Hotevilla. And that's situated in an area that's called, there's three mesas that the Hopi live on. So, the Hotevilla and Oraibi and the village at Kykotsmovi, those are all on the Third Mesa, which kind of juts out. So, you got, like, Hotevilla and then Oraibi, then it's like a mesa goes down. And below it is Kykotsmovi. And then, so the road goes up further into, like, maybe another 10 miles up, you'll start going up into another mesa, that's Second Mesa. So, there's three villages situated up there in, like, rocks. From afar, it looks like a mountain. You get close, you start seeing houses and stuff in there, so it really looks like a big mesa. So those are the Second Mesas. And you go further down, you get to the first mesa, which resides the consolidated villages of Polacca. First Mesa consolidated villages. Hano, Walpi, Tewa, Sichomovi. The lower villages. This village is, like, totally on a big, giant, narrow strip of rock that goes up probably like 100 ft, at least. So, I'm from the village of Kykotsmovi, which lies in, like, a valley above the village Oraibi, which is one of the oldest continuously inhabited villages in the United States.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah, thanks.

Gregory Hill: But yeah, you go that way. That's where I come from.

Ranger Melissa: I like it. When you think of home, are there any certain sounds, sense of smell? Anything that brings up memories of home for you?

Gregory Hill: Yeah, the rain smell after it rains, that wet earth smell. Mostly things that I encounter in nature remind me of home. Like, there's certain bugs that I encounter that only come out up there, know, that you don't see in the southern part of the state where I live in Scottsdale. So, there's things that I see down there that I miss from home because it's like a whole different mentality. In the city, it's like every man for themselves. But out in Hopi, it's like a community, and people help each other. Everybody come eat. It's not like, oh, you can't come eat because there's whatever. If there's not enough, we'll make enough., But yeah, there's a lot of things that remind me of home. When I was in my apprenticeship, as a butcher, I used to live in Albuquerque, so I'd get like homesick because that was like one of the first cities that I moved to as a grown up. So, I would miss home but the pueblos around there, they have ceremonies and dances and stuff and feasts. So, if I missed home a lot, I'd just go to one of the pueblos and eat and watch the dances and whatever and that really took me home. So, I didn't have a lot of angst and all of that from missing home and whatnot.

Ranger Melissa: It's like a sense of community.

Gregory Hill: Yeah, exactly.

Ranger Melissa: That's awesome. Yeah. When you talked about your apprenticeship with being a butcher, that was before you started doing your tops.

Gregory Hill: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: So, what made you switch from your long stint as a butcher to becoming an artist?

Gregory Hill: I never imagined that I would be a toy maker. Artist, toy maker. It was more like a hobby to me doing this. Because butching is my passion. I can do the whole aspect of it. Nowadays there's meat cutters. So, a meat cutter is just basically cutting this muscle that's coming already separated in a big box full of other same kind of mussels. You're just cutting it up into steaks. I know how to do the whole thing from the slaughtering to the processing to doing that part of it, taking the steaks apart. So I never thought I'd be doing anything else in my whole life. I had plans for opening up like a butcher shop and like a mobile butcher shop for people that are like game hunters and whatnot. So I had big old plans for that. If I wasn't doing this, I would have been like a successful butcher shop owner right now. But this started off as a hobby. But for one thing, my OCD won't allow me to stop making them because they all have to spin exactly right. And even if I have this right now, it's like I'm not going to stop until it spins. So that's one of my problems that I have with this, making these. Because I can't stop. But I always told myself that, okay, you can be an artist for a little while, but then it's not going to be really lucrative. And it's like I'm finding that out. Yeah. It's like I have to work twice as hard as I ever would as a butcher. I work 8 hours as a butcher. I work 23 hours as a toy maker. But before it was just like something to do. But then, now as I'm learning and evolving as an artist, it turned into something different. It turned into something that I'm creating. Something that's going to bring like, mirth and joy, happiness. Like a childlike wonder is what it is. That little kid magic that we all possess, but sometimes we lose as we grow up because we stop playing. So I turned to making these because I just want to have that feeling in the world. There's just so many crazy things happening, like now, and I want to combat all the negative things in the world by creating something that's going to bring joy to the world.

Gregory Hill: I think that's like a good mission to have. My mission is to recreate a dying toy and encourage the childlike mirth and others. So, I think that's like a good mission to have. I use my art to promote different conservation efforts like at the Grand Canyon. I work with the International Crane Foundation. I use my art to promote knowledge about the Whooping and Sandhill cranes, which are on the endangered species list. I work with a group that works with turtles, like the endangered species turtles into hatchings and whatnot. So, it turned into a good business for me. I started winning awards for my work. I thought that once I'm going to win an award, then that's it. I always told myself that over the years as I'm doing this. And I finally won an award. And it was funny because my brain shut off to doing this because that was it. And I couldn't think of ideas to carve for maybe three months. I was just like blank. I had like, artist block. And to me, I was like, well, you're finished, so why keep doing it? But then I had to challenge myself again, like, okay, well, you'd win this award, try to win first place. So right now, I got 1st, 2nd and 3rd place awards in my category, which is traditional arts. And I got two honorable mentions in fine art and a sculpture division. So that's different for me because I never think of this stuff as fine art or sculpture. But some of the ones that I really carve out really could be like, fine art and sculpture. My new challenge to me as toy maker and artist is to try to win more awards, like bigger awards. So that's my personal challenge. I could stop and not do it anymore. But at the same time, yeah, I'm setting my pedestal higher for myself right now. For one show that I've been attending for the past six years, I got 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. So now I just want to win the best of show, which is like the top prize. So that's my new goal as an artist, is to try to win more awards.

Ranger Melissa: Right. When we were talking earlier, you said one way you have done that is, you've passed on some knowledge of how to make this with your daughter. Do you want to talk through how that came about? How did you get her interested in what you're doing? What's that like doing a father and daughter duo?

Gregory Hill: Yeah. That's cool. Because this all started as a project for my little girl when she was in kindergarten. So, she would have been six, around there. She came home one day with the note and a little piece of cottonwood root. The note said that she had a pen pal in Zuni, New Mexico, which is east of us as well. As a way to share culture, the parents were instructed to create a patukya, carve out a top. At that point, I think I was into my journeymanship as a butcher, so I never carved wood before, you know? I was just carving meat all the time. But my twin brother, Jonah, he was a Katsina doll carver as I was a butcher. So, I had to go to him and borrow his carving knife. And I already knew what a top looked like in my mind because I'm a nerd and I know different toys and whatnot, but I didn't know anything about carving wood. Son my first top was really rough. I just used the knife for the whole thing and carved out the tip with this and then made a handle for it. And it was a top, but it was really rough and everything. I didn't know about rasps and files or anything like that. So, it spun, but it spun like this. It was wobbly. Yeah. And me as a nerd, I know that when a top spins, it spins straight up and down on an axis, giving enough torque to make it spin like that. So I'd be standing there cutting meat in the daytime and whatever, and just sitting there and then standing there cutting meat. But in the back of my mind, it's like it bothered me that that thing was spinning like that. So OCD kicked in, I guess. And I went back to my brother and asked him, can I learn how to carve wood from you? Nobody really knows how to make these anymore because at that point they were kind of extinct. I remember them, but I remember them when I was like a real small child and I couldn't go and ask, like, hey, man, how do you make a patukya? Because there was nobody to ask. So, what I did was went to the village and asked all the elders about them, learned that way, then took all of that knowledge and my knowledge of science, angles, height to ground ratios and all of that and put it into this.

Gregory Hill: But my daughter, she was the one that really evolved from it because when she was little and I got to a point where I started being able to sell them, which I didn't really know how to do because I wasn't an artist at that point. So, we go to these different shops and my daughter, she was the demonstrator. So, she would demonstrate the method of play with using a stick and a string with the Hopi style tops. I think I can probably do it right here in the sand. Should be able to.

Ranger Melissa: Ouu, a challenge.

Gregory Hill: So, a Hopi style top is, like, a really simple shape. It has a tip. I learned that we had to go to a rock, like a sandstone, because that's all there is here. And grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind. I tried that one time when I was first starting out. It took me a day just to barely get, like, a little bit of a tip on there. That's why I only used hand tools, is to keep myself rooted to that aspect of it, where they had to work in order to play. But to me, it teaches craftsmanship, attention to detail, all of those good things. So, my daughter would be doing this. She'd be demonstrating. I don't think it'll work (in the sand).

Ranger Melissa: Maybe get some rocks out of the way.

Gregory Hill: Yeah, there you go. Yeah. She would demonstrate the method of play for the spinning top, and then nine times out of ten, that would be. . .

Ranger Melissa: Could you do it on the chair?

Gregory Hill: Yeah, I can do it on the chair. Yeah. So, my daughter grew up doing this, what I'm doing right now. I had to relearn how to play because we all stop playing as we grow up. So, it took me a couple of weeks to be able to learn how to play. So, you hit it and you hit it with the string, and it keeps it spinning. So, imagine like, a dozen kids all doing this at the same time. That's what I remember when I was a little kid. So, yeah, my daughter grew up, and now she's 23, she's going to be 23 in November. And I was having some health issues within the past couple of years. I think I had a detached retina, so I thought I was going blind. Everything was blur and I couldn't see anything. It was scary. I thought I was going to have to quit doing this because I can't see. So, I started teaching my daughter how to carve wood. And in the Hopi, it's taboo for the ladies to carve the Kachina dolls, so I had to go and ask and see if it was okay for her to learn how to carve wood.

Gregory Hill: They're like, well, as long as it's not a Kachina, she should be okay because there are women carvers. I didn't bring any of the real small ones, but the real small pieces that I have are her work. So, she does a lot of the real small stuff now, and I'm free to do the award-winning tops. If I wanted to, I'm comfortable to leave her at a show or whatever, whether it be a demonstration show or art show, like the Santa Fe Indian Market, something like that. I'm comfortable leaving her alone with the booth, and she'll do everything.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool.

Gregory Hill: Yeah. So, she grew up doing this. And she knows business sense and how to market, advertising, all of that cool stuff. So, I'm trying to make her go back to school to learn more about it, because one thing I hate to do is, like, paperwork, and I'm trying to get her to be my paperwork gal.

Ranger Melissa: Earlier when we were talking in the watchtower, you were saying at the beginning you'd split the profits 80 20, and then it was like 30-40.

Gregory Hill: Yeah, now we're 50-50. So, she grew up learning a sense of how to use money and how to earn money. Because we'd do a sale, and I would make like $100. She'd be right there. Where's my $20? And she'd be growing up every time that she started knowing when I promote her or whatever, that she'd do the math and everything. And as soon as we get done, where's my cut? She was on it. Now, for a while, she was kind of taking it for granted, automatically going to start making this much money and whatnot. But then now as an apprentice, I do it based on her production and everything and how much time she takes in doing what she's doing. If I set her a task, like that much, and then she'll say, oh, well, I want half. I'll go like, well, how much did you do? How much work did you do? I'm putuk-ing as a business, and she's like, my employee now, so I got to make sure she's doing the work. Otherwise, she's going to be lazy, and I have to carve out 60 tops, and she's going to want half of that when she only does maybe, like three. So, I'm going to teach her that. To be responsible in that way and set her goals and all of that.

Ranger Melissa: Right.

Gregory Hill: Yeah.

Gregory Hill: I think one day she's going to be doing what I'm doing right now.

Ranger Melissa: That'd be awesome.

Gregory Hill: Yeah. She'll carry it on, which is cool for me because that's one of my goals, is to revitalize and keep this thing alive.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. And I'm excited she's going to start making more tops. And then you get a shift more into your creative brain and doing more intricate work. Could you explain where your ideas come from and your inspiration for what you're going to design on your top?

Gregory Hill: A lot of my tops and my top designs, they come from childhood memories, like things I experienced in nature as a child or things like conquests and even defeats and stuff like that as a kid. I'll carve it into these tops, and that way it lives on, not only in my memory, but as a way to keep my memory fresh. But a lot of my designs nowadays come from conservation efforts. I believe that much like a turbine can create an energy; a top will create an energy as it's spinning. So, now a lot of my designs are in hopes that these things I'm putting into and on my tops are going to materialize in this world somewhere. Like the bees are becoming extinct, so we need more pollinators. So, I'll put bee tops that are totally carved out with bees and hives, honeycombs, and flowers and whatnot. So, I'll do tops like that and that's where my ideas come from. Things that I want to materialize into this world by using this spinning energy. But yeah, for one of the rangers a couple of maybe five years ago, she liked butterflies. So, I created a top that was totally carved out, butterfly up here and the bottom part was like a lady, like a maiden. Like the butterfly was landing on top of her head. It was like really colorful and everything. And another ranger was part of the turtle group, and I made her a really cool, colorful turtle. Like the sun was shining through the water and hitting that turtle shell and all those mosses and stuff that grow on it. And it made it like a burst of color. So, when it spun, it was like really colorful and everything.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah. In terms of designing a top, there's two parts to it, right? You're not only thinking about what it is going to look like, but also what's it going to look like when it starts to spin. How do you decide or how do you even think like that? That is blowing my mind, because today you were even talking about like, oh, I'm going to use blue and red to design a top so that when it spins, it makes a purple color. How do those ideas come into your mind, too? Like the color play that you can do when it's in motion versus not?

Gregory Hill: I'm sure a lot of artists, especially painters, they have what's called a color wheel. So that shows you which colors are going to do which or whatever. So, I kind of like have a mental color wheel in my mind. And it's like I can't look at things now normally. Every time I see something in my mind, it's doing this.

Ranger Melissa: It's like spinning?

Gregory Hill: Yeah. So, I always wonder, like, well, what colors go with this color? But as I'm carving it like this right now, what I'm carving, I think I'm going to carve, like maybe a grasshopper or something. That's what I see is a grasshopper sitting right here. So, this is going to be like the back legs, the front legs, the head right here. This is all going to be cut away, and then it's going to be sitting maybe on a flower or something like that.

Ranger Melissa: On the flat part?

Gregory Hill: Yeah, it's just like a lot of times I don't want to make these things. It's what's inside the wood that I see. It's what the wood wants to be. So, yeah, a lot of times I just use my imagination and what the wood wants to be. I can't force it. And when I do try to force a design, they're never balanced. They won't spin at all. So, I know I'm going to change it then into something else, and then it works. It starts spinning again.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool. And speaking of the nerd inside you and the way it spins. Being able to teach this to someone, what's involved in learning how to make a top? Because it feels like a lot of art, but also a lot of math.

Gregory Hill: Yeah, it's math, its science, it's attention to detail. When I first started doing this, like I say, I'm a nerd. So, I was taking a lot of time to figure out the angle of the tip, 45-degree angle or like a 30-degree angle for best height to ground ratio and all of that. So, it was hard teaching my daughter all of that because she's not a science buff. And new math nowadays is crazy. It turned out to be really technical. Like using a compass and everything and a lot of different tools. Somehow, it evolved in my mind and in my hands that instead of doing all of that, like getting a ruler and trying to see if I have the right angle, whatever, it's all feel. By feel. I'm feeling the wood, and I'm feeling like if there was a little see, it's not even right here, right? It goes up, it goes down. You can feel it. Do this with it. Yeah, turn it in your hand. All those bumps and raises and everything. You guys want to check it out? Yeah, everyone feel it. Rather than being yeah, just get it and turn it in your fingers and you'll feel all of those bumps and raises and everything.

Gregory Hill: And that's what I kind of take away. Right, but now, yeah, I don't even use hardly any math or whatever. It's just all what I feel. But then only time I use math is when I inlay natural stones, like turquoise or opal or any of the natural stones. Sometimes I'll inlay them into the top, and then I got to use math because I got to take the weight of that stone counterbalance with the weight of the other stone that I'm using. Sometimes I have to use like two or three stones on this side to counterbalance that weight and then make the top so it'll spin using those stones for more momentum, for forward momentum. So, when I start to spin it, the weight of that stone will push the other weight of the stone and it'll cause a longer spin. So, then I got to figure out how many kilograms or micro kilograms. I got to figure all of that out. The most stones I've ever put on a top was 26 pieces of turquoise onto a top. And that spun for a really long time, because all that weight and the way I made it was shaped like a heart. So, all of the stones that were on this part of their heart counterbalanced these stones on this heart and made more weight as it spun. So, it was like kind of pushing it.

Ranger Melissa: It pushed itself, yeah.

Gregory Hill: And if it wasn't for friction, that probably would have spun for like half an hour. But yeah, it's always the friction that the two surfaces are touching that slows down a top as it's spinning. So, if there wasn't friction, theoretically a top would spin in perpetual motion, but there's friction, and that causes heat, and heat slows it down.

Ranger Melissa: Kind of like the world. Cause we keep spinning.

Gregory Hill: Yeah, exactly. The world's doing this right now. It's supposed to be spinning like this, but it's spinning like this, kind of an axis. So, it's like a wobble. It's doing like a wobble. I think it's like a 26-degree wobble. So right now, the North Pole used to be like this, but now the North Pole is more towards the British Isles. So, in the Hopi, we have a story about that, about what the Earth is doing. It has to do with twins. The twins control the poles of the Earth, and then when it gets to a point in time when the Earth is going to end, the twins go opposite and then they make the Earth shake and it gets wobbly, and then the Earth will crumble. So, I think that's what's happening now is because the Earth is doing that wobble. It's been wobbling since 2011, I think. So, my next really big, my best of show top that I want to do, is going to be like an eight-inch diameter top that's going to explain that story, and the twins are going to be on there. So then when it spins, it's going to like all tops that spin, they wobble when they slow down. But what's cool is that when a top does like a wobble, when it's slowing down, it's going even faster than when it first started. So it's all that energy that's going to build up, and then as it wobbles, it goes boom. It's like a burst of energy. So when it wobbles, it's going even faster.

Ranger Melissa: That's going to be really cool to see.

Gregory Hill: Yeah. So then that top, when it's going to stop, it's going to be like, the twins are making that wobble happen and the Earth is going to crash.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool.

Gregory Hill: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: Will you have that done by Thursday? I'm just kidding.

Gregory Hill: In my mind, I'm carving it right now. Yeah, I'll have it done probably for the Heard show. That's the one I want to win. It's the Heard.

Ranger Melissa: At the Heard Museum down in Phoenix?

Gregory Hill: Yeah, that's the one I want to win.

Ranger Melissa: That's awesome. You know, we're kind of winding down on my questions, but I had one. We were talking earlier about tops and how you didn't really know how to appraise yourself, like, how much should these actually cost? And it was like bringing an idea into my head where we've had many cultural demonstrators come out and there's all this love and positive energy that goes into all this different art. But then when people buy that art, it kind of just sits on a wall or sits on a shelf. And I really appreciate your artwork because you play with it, you actually utilize it. You're not just admiring it from a distance, you're bringing out that positive, that kid energy, like you were saying, but it's also this very beautiful thing that you have just thought up in the wood. How do you envision yourself in that scope? Of trying to figure out the worth of what you're creating when you have so many more dynamic interactions with your clientele?

Gregory Hill: That was my biggest problem as an emerging artist and all of that. I didn't know the value of my own work, which is, I think, a lot of problems for a lot of artists and people that make crafts and whatnot. What am I going to price this at? What's somebody going to pay? When I first started out, these things were like $5, $10 like this.

Ranger Melissa: What?

Gregory Hill: Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know what it was worth or whatever. I was happy to be able to sell that for that much. But I'm a nerd and I'm a smart man. I have an associates in business, so I started using that towards what I'm doing now. I'm running a business; I'm not going to be giving things away. I put x amount of time into doing this, whether it's going to hunt for the wood, bringing it back, curing it, cutting it, making it into something that's going to work perfectly. In my mind it has to, or else I'm not going to sell it. So, I started learning about commerce and I looked how much a man-made, machine-made top was. Mine aren't machine-made. I put more effort into it. I put that into account, so started bringing my prices up and everything and I'm running a business now. But, the other side of that is I'm not greedy for money or whatever, you know? You saw yourself, I've given away tops here today, at least three or four today, because to me, it's not about the money. Sure, I can make money doing this, and I do make money doing this. But the feeling that somebody gets when they see this. Like an old person that hasn't seen a toy in 80 years is going to see this thing. And mine is going to go back to that time when he was a child. He or she was a child. And their faces change, their demeanor changes, they light up and they get this energy every time. It's like an energy; they stand up straighter. One time I had an 80-year-old gentleman come, and he said he used to play with the stick and a string top, and it took him, like, 14 times to get down enough to actually spin the top. But he did it. And as soon as he did it, his whole body just loosened up, and he was whipping it and playing with it. And it was cool to me to see that. So that kind of thing is like, the reward that I look for, and that's my reward for doing this. It's not about the money sometimes. A lot of times, yeah.

Ranger Melissa: And I think that brings a huge point. The pure joy that your art brings is kind of almost invaluable. Like even today, I know I was playing with your tops, and I forgot I was working.

Gregory Hill: Yeah, right.

Ranger Melissa: It was so much fun.

Gregory Hill: You were talking about something that sits on the mantle or whatever on the shelf. A lot of my award-winning tops do that, which is sad to me, because I make them, no matter what the shape, size, whatever, they're all made to spin. And a lot of my big-time collectors that buy my big ones, they'll just sit there on their shelf or whatever, and I ask them five, six years later, do you guys play with your top? Oh, no. It just sits on the shelf. I was like, can you please spin it like one time?

Ranger Melissa: Release that power!

Gregory Hill: Get some energy going.

Audience Member: Get the dust off.

Ranger Melissa: For the dust to fly off.

Gregory Hill: Yeah. One of my biggest collectors, she has a big bowl, has, like, maybe 15, 16 tops in there. She keeps it out for people to come and play with them and whatnot.

Ranger Melissa: Awesome.

Gregory Hill: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: My last question before we throw it to the audience is, if you had one takeaway for all of us here in this community tonight, what would that be?

Gregory Hill: Never stop playing. The art of play is something that's dying out in the world thanks to these things (phones). You're hunched over. I'm playing. Don't bother me. Go do the dishes. I can't, I'm playing. That's crazy. To me, that's crazy. Because I grew up playing outside, running around, climbing rocks and doing all this stuff, getting into trouble and danger. So, when we stop playing, there's synapses in our brains that go dormant, and those synapses in our brains that are associated with play are also associated with memory. So, if you stop playing, those synapses are going to stop moving and stop firing off. So, you're going to start forgetting things. You're going to start having memory lapses. And it's a proven fact that the art of play, as well as music, is the most beneficial thing for your brain to do. No matter if you're 9 or 90, we all have a little kid inside. Never stop playing. You're never too old to play, no matter how old you are. So that's one thing I want everybody to take away is just to remember that little kid inside of you.

Ranger Melissa: I love that. Never stop playing. And I thank you so much for coming to our demonstration program, which will be in the watchtower tomorrow from nine to four, as well as on Thursday. So, if you want to see Gregory making more tops or ask more questions, you can visit there. But it's really great that you're here, and I'm happy to have met you because I also really appreciate the idea that you're bringing this back, like, bringing something that was close to being kind of forgotten back to life. And that's just really cool. How you're doing that through art.

Gregory Hill: It's cool to me because I noticed, like, a lot of Kachina doll carvers are starting to make patukya now.

Ranger Melissa: Oh, cool.

Gregory Hill: But I think I got it to a point where there's a patukya and then there's Hilltops. So, I kind of made myself higher in skill level and all of that. But it's fun to me to see that the carvers are making these, because, like I say before, when I first started this, nobody was making them, but now it's coming back, so I'm revitalizing it, which is my goal.

Ranger Melissa: That's so cool.

Gregory Hill: Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: I'm going to throw it to the audience if anyone has any questions, too. Thanks so much.

Gregory Hill: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you.

Audience Member: What type of wood do you like to collect and use?

Gregory Hill: Okay, so the wood that I use is the root from the cottonwood tree. So, the cottonwood trees, they normally grow, like, near a body of water or a river. So, the root system, it grows into the water. The water, when it's flowing, it'll break it off. Sometimes, I get 20, 30-foot lengths, and the water helps to straighten them out. So, I'll go and hunt, like, near rivers and whatnot locally and around. And I'll go hunt on the riverbeds and find these pieces of wood. I'll drag them out of the water, haul it back and take it home, dry it out, and cure it. And the better stuff, I can always tell because I'll put my thumb into it, and if I can really put it in there, then I know that's, like, soft, good, soft wood. But that's my favorite piece of wood only because it allows me to really carve into it and stuff. But I've used teak, ebony, ironwood, a lot of the hardwoods, because the more the top weighs, the more it'll spin, the longer it'll spin. The heavier the weight, the longer the spin. So those tops that I've made from ebony antique, those ones spun for, like, maybe five minutes.

Gregory Hill: The ones that I'm trying to make from ironwood, that's metal. So that one's taking me a while, but that one's going to probably spin for a very long time, too. There's a tribe down in Mexico called the Seri. They have lady carvers, and they carve nothing but ironwood. And, geez, they carve, like, flamingos and pelicans from one piece of wood, and they make it look like it's like butter. So, I don't know what kind of magic they're using, but.

Ranger Melissa: Women power.

Gregory Hill: Yeah, exactly. Wonder Woman power. But it's fun watching them. I was at a wood carving convention in San Diego, like, in 2015, and all these little noises that I make with the wood, it was, like, amplified by a thousand because there was, like, five hundred wood carvers all in the same room working. Yeah. So that was a big kick for me.

Ranger Melissa: That's cool. Any other questions?

Audience Member: Curious to know, how did you pronounce it?

Gregory Hill: The patukya.

Ranger Melissa: The patukya.

Audience Member: What's been the longest amount of time that you've worked on one particular one?

Gregory Hill: Oh, the longest time I've worked on one. Three and a half months.

Ranger Melissa: Oh, wow.

Gregory Hill: I won first place at a show. I carved a hummingbird. So, the hummingbird was kind of like this shape, but then the wings came out like that, and then the head was dipping into a flower, which I carved. This whole part was a flower, so the hummingbird head was dipping into it, and its wings were, like, fluttering like that. And that one was inlaid with spiny oyster shell, red coral. I think it was bisbee turquoise.

Ranger Melissa: Wow.

Gregory Hill: It was all kinds of flowers carved around the side of it, too. And on the bottom was, like, pottery designs that were hummingbirds. So that took me, like, three and a half months because every little feather was carved out, every little overlapping feather. From the wings to the body to the tail and all of that. So, yeah, that took me three and a half months for that one.

Audience Member: How much time do you envision dedicating to the eight-inch top that you're going to be working on?

Ranger Melissa: Oh, yeah. The one that you're going to make with the twins, how long do you think that'll take?

Gregory Hill: I've been carving that in my head for three years now, so I'm looking for the piece of wood that's perfect for it. I have some good diameters. I'm looking for eight inches or more because I'm going to carve it down because it's going to be a lot.

Audience Member: Has it happened to you where, for instance, you're dedicating 15 hours to a top and then it splits in half?

Ranger Melissa: Oh, does it ever split or break?

Gregory Hill: Yeah, handles break a lot of times because the handles are carved out of one piece of wood. And I find that when I'm disturbed or preoccupied, my tops don't get balanced. So that's how I know I'm bothered about something. Yeah, I've carved tops where I've carved wings and everything out of a butterfly. And then I'm getting to that last point where I'm burning and I do it wrong or something, it pops off. But I've learned that every mistake is an opportunity. So, when I break something, I can turn it into something else. And I'm the only one that knows about the mistake. So, I used to be really hard on myself about mistakes until I realized that, one, I'm the only one that knows about those mistakes, and two, nobody else knows that it's a mistake.

Ranger Melissa: I love that. Yeah, I'm going to take that home.

Gregory Hill: Even in different things that I'm not carving, when I make mistakes in life, I know it's opportunity because I can learn from it and not do the same thing again. Yeah, you got to be more extra careful being a butcher and all of that.

Audience Member: That's ribeye steak!

Gregory Hill: Yeah, right. And I learned the old school way where it's all hand cut. We really used to saw and everything. So, everything was all the different types of knives that we used to debone, to slice, to cut, to make roasts and everything.

Ranger Melissa: Yeah, all ten fingers.

Gregory Hill: I got a good scar, though. I got a really good scar from a cut, but that's my initiation. I took it like that, like initiation. So, I never cut myself after that. Same thing with woodcutting. I cut my finger really good when I first did it because I didn't know what I was doing, and that was like, my lesson learned. So, I cut myself every once in a while, but it's not a big thing to me. Put some superglue on it and get back to work.

Ranger Melissa: Keep going. I love that. Any other questions?

Audience Member: Where do you get your carving tools from?

Gregory Hill: These are actually my grandmother's tools. She was a wood carver, so a lot of my files and rasps are hers. This is my carving knife. It's a brand called Opinel. It's a French made knife. Before, I used to use the old Henry knives. You know, the old folding knives. Those were like the number one wood carving knives back in the day because it was high carbon steel. They stayed sharp for a long time. But nowadays, if you see wood carving knives like the Kachina doll carvers and whatnot, they'll have probably an Opinel knife. You get these, like, on Amazon or whatever. In France, I heard they're like, only $2 or whatever. Here they're like 16 to 25, I think. But they got different sizes. Like, the blade sizes go up and down. So, this is a number eight. I have a number six as well. I use a number six for finer detail work, like really small, carved out stuff I haven't had to buy. Yeah, he uses the same kind. This is the kind I cut myself with the first time, but not this one. Yeah, but all of my rasps and files, they're all my grandma's tools and whatnot. She probably got them from wherever hardware store was around back in the 70s, probably. Yeah. So, it's fun to use her tools, especially a little mallet that I have, because I can feel her energy in it, she's used it for so long. And when I know I'm not holding it right, I'll look at it and, oh yeah, this is how she was holding it. And it works a lot better. So I can feel my grandmother's energy in the tools that I use. And I like that because her carvings are nothing but ironwood and it's like really cool intricate carvings and I'm glad to be able to use her tools for what I do.

Ranger Melissa: Well, thank you so much for coming out. Did you have one more question?

Audience Member: You talked a lot about the tops today, but what about the other pieces you have?

Ranger Melissa: Oh, the pieces out front?

Gregory Hill: Okay. Yeah. Well, being a butcher, I never had time for art at all, but I used to like to draw a lot, like a really good draw. I used to be a tattoo artist in my 20s.

Ranger Melissa: Oh, cool. Should have talked about that. (Laughter)

Gregory Hill: Yeah, right. I'm currently going through hemodialysis because my kidneys are jacked up. So, when I'm at dialysis, this arm just like sits there. And before I was carving there, but then this arm just sits there. So, this arm is free, and I get bored. So, I bought a sketch pad. All of the designs I put on my tops; I never draw them beforehand. It's always just what I see in the woods. So, I don't have any sketches of stuff. But now I started drawing in that sketch pad. So, I've been getting those doodles pretty much. I get it and then I take it home and kind of build up on it. So, I started making relief style carvings with this. So, all of my ideas from dialysis are turned into wall hanging art. Cool. Yeah. So, I call them my dialysis doodles. But yeah, it's like fun for me for doing something different when I want to do something different besides tops. So, yeah, I've been winning awards for my flat pieces, too, so yeah, those ones are pretty neat.

Ranger Melissa: Well, thank you all for coming. The sunset will be nice.

Gregory Hill: It should be a good one.

Ranger Melissa: Get a good spot.

Gregory Hill: Thank you, guys, for coming!

Ranger Melissa: I appreciate it.

Gregory Hill: Yeah, come check it out. Yeah.

Ranger Melissa: If you need the parking lot, it's behind you.

Gregory Hill: If you come tomorrow, I have like 40 more, I think. And these are all going to be carved into tops by the end of Thursday.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.NPS.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the eleven associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

]]> ]]> Mon, 30 Oct 2023 00:00:00 -0400 https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/podcasts/0DA24F54-AF47-9389-14B611FF56A8393B.mp3 https://www.nps.gov/podcasts/grand-canyon-speaks.htm#episode-0DCA5555-C1C2-F5A2-33F090E8839C48C6 Grand Canyon Speaks Trailer Grand Canyon National Park - National Park Service Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks! We are airing live interviews that park rangers had with artists from the 11 associated tribes of Grand Canyon National Park. This series explores the lives and perspectives of people who call Grand Canyon home. 99 no trailer 1

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Janet Yazzie: I had to believe in myself first to become an artist. Gerald Dawavendewa: Being an individual is one of the last things you are. Aaron White: You know, music is a very powerful tool. Chasady Simplicio: I really do hope one day my pieces will stay around for like longer than I am. Ranger Jonah: Hello, and welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks, an online podcast series that interviews members of the eleven associated tribes of Grand Canyon National Park. This is an experience we have in person in the park, and we are now bringing it to your ears and your home. Through this online series, we hope you enjoy the authentic representation of people who call Grand Canyon home. Noreen Simplicio: It's all going to get taken away. Well, that hasn't happened. I'm still creating. So, grandma, I'm sorry, but I think you were wrong at that. Aaron White: Bunch of crazy 18-year-olds. And then when the clubs would close out at four in the morning, people would pour into the streets. Gregory Hill: I want to combat all the negative things in the world by creating something that's going to bring joy to the world. Cassandra Tsalate: Yes. Over time, it will break, it will diminish. But when it does, that's when you know that life was its full potential. Chasady Simplicio: You're going to have to do some editing. LaShae Harris: (laughter) Start over.

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