Hermán Luis Chávez 0:20 : Buenos días y welcome to Oíste?, a National Park Service podcast. I’m Hermán Luis Chávez…
Melissa Hurtado 0:30 : … and I’m Melissa Hurtado. In the Oíste? podcast, we explore the salsa stories of Afro Latin music in the United States through interviews and conversations. During our podcast episode Salsa Stories 101 we discussed learning about salsa through passed down stories and songs and how much that meant to us. Today, we’ll take that into a larger context and talk about why oral histories are so important for communities.
H 0:56 : What an amazing idea! So, let’s get right into it. In today’s episode, “Ritmos, Comunidad, and Oral Histories,” we’ll be in conversation with Marcos Echeverria Ortiz to reflect on some oral histories and connecting communities with digital archives.
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H: 1:25 Oral history stems from a tradition of passing down knowledge from generation to generation. It is a way to preserve history through personal recollections and interviews. Oral history is a technique we can all use to connect with each other as well as those close to us.
M 1:46: That’s a great recap of what oral history is. Oral history actually plays a very valuable role at many National Park Service sites. Some sites use interviews to enrich museum exhibits and other interpretive and educational programs. Oral histories help bring place-based stories to audiences far and wide.
H 2:03 : One example of oral history at play can be seen at Manzanar National Historic Site. Their oral history project documents the World War II history of Japanese Americans at Manzanar and other incarceration camps through the personal accounts of the formerly incarcerated, government staff, military personnel, and residents of communities near the camps.
M 2:24 : Another great example is when 850 interviews were conducted between 2001 and 2005 on the first African American military aviators. The interviewees consisted of the airmen who trained to fly the airplanes at segregated facilities in Moton Field during World War II, the military and civilian support personnel who kept the pilots flying, and the wives of airmen who lived at Tuskegee while their husbands were in training. These oral histories have informed rehabilitation of historic structures and museum exhibit development at the site. The site is: Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site.
H 3:03 : These are all such great examples! Oral histories are among the most valuable stories that the National Park Service preserves and protects for future generations.
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M 3:22: Let’s welcome Marcos Echeverria Ortiz!
H Speaker 3:26 : Marcos is an Ecuadorian award-winning multimedia journalist, photographer, and filmmaker. For the past ten years, he has developed transmedia web projects and cover stories related to culture, underground music in Latinoamerica, social movements, and human rights. Marcos was a fellow of the provost scholarship at The New School and graduated with honors from the Media Studies MA program. He has recently covered social justice movements and worked with organizations such as New York Communities for Change, United for Respect, Make The Road New York, and Lincoln Center. His writings have been published in the Latinx Project at NYU, and his pictures have been featured in The New York Times and Business Insider. He is interested in archives, so he created “Where We Were Safe,” an interactive documentary and oral history project about the lost and destroyed historical places of Salsa music in New York City. This project has been awarded and projected in various festivals around the world including Spain, Germany, Panama, Argentina, Puerto Rico, the US, and more.
Bienvenido Marcos!, how are you doing today?
MH 4:32 : Welcome, welcome.
Marcos Echeverria Ortiz Speaker 4:35
Hola Herman. Hola Melissa. Thanks for inviting me.
HLC 4:38 : We're super excited to talk with you about your many experiences when it comes to salsa stories and the archive. So, we'd love to start with hearing about your connections to salsa. What's the story that you want to share about your experience?
MOE 4:55 : It's been a really interesting process. You know, I was born and grew up in Ecuador, so you know, salsa, it's part of that. However, the salsa that I used to listen to, you know, it was like salsa Romantica because it was the 90s and I was an 90s kid. I didn't feel really attracted at once there, I really didn't understand salsa at that time, but when I started, you know, in my 20s in my, as a teenager, that's when I start kind of discovering music itself. And that's when I started kind of listening to Fania and try to understanding, you know, what it means.
In this time, you know, I didn't really understood the kind of the political and social impact of salsa. So, when you're growing up in Latinamerica, or as a Latin American with salsa, you just have like, this idea that somehow New York City is the salsa city. But then fast forward, you know, when I moved here to New York in 2017, I came with that idea, you know, with that tail in my head, like New York City, the salsa city. So when I came here, my interest and my will was to find all these spaces. For example, like a museum or a monument for Celia or for Tito Puente or for Hector, you know. But yeah, when I came here, you know, as a newcomer I was like, okay, where is everything, you know, like, where's like, the museums? Where are like, these spaces? You know, where are, like, things that from the city that kind of, like, memorize these spaces?
Obviously, you know, it's important to say that the genre and our culture has survived because the people, you know. That's the way that our culture has a way because the people exist still. But, you know, that's why you have people dancing on the street people playing on the street, but it was really shocking for me to, to come here and not kind of find nothing from the city or from the state or from, you know, the, the public kind of policy thing to-- that remembers salsa. That's something that you don't encounter or find, with other genres that happened at the same time in New York City, you know. For example, like hip hop or punk, or disco, you know, they're like, these kind of like memorializing efforts. But with salsa was not the case. And that's when I got really interested in understanding like, wait! What's going on out here? You know, like, salsa was this kind of huge, important cultural and political movement of 1970s that kind of like really invaded the world, and how come there is nothing related to space and to memorializing?
So yeah, that was kind of my journey. And yeah, so me as an immigrant coming here to the US to New York. And, actually, my project comes from that question of identity. You know, like, the moment I came here, what first time that I asked to myself, what it means to be a Latino, you know, what it means to be Latino or Latinx here in New York City now. Yeah, a good way to start answering that question was salsa. And that's when I got interested in understanding and involving more in the salsa scene, you know, what salsa means and salsa history. And that's when I really understood and kind of the cultural and political power of salsa, as an immigrant salsa is what gave me like, motivation and presence and a way of understanding my role as a newcomer, as a Latin American newcomer in the US. So that's kind of my approach towards salsa, and how salsa informed my life.
MH 8:06
Wow, that's such a great approach and connects your personal stories to also your need to seek out these spaces. And it's really important to tell stories about these places. So can you tell us a little bit about why it's so important to tell stories about these places?
MEO 8:24 : It's important to talk about space, because the space is our medium to render social political narratives. And I'm just going to cite an architectural historian called Dolores Hayden. And, you know, she states that place should be in the heart of the Urban landscape history, to understand how political and social struggles are worried. So for example, it's to understand the history of how places our planned, designed, built, inhabited, appropriated, celebrated, and later despoiled and discarded, you know. So, in this context, space development, it's understanding or implies a political history. And I was really interested in understanding how our community was related to place, how we occupy space, and how that allowed us to have this historical continuity. It's important to talk about spaces because spaces gives you a sense for, especially occupying spaces, gives you a sense of belonging, gives you a sense of saneness.
HLC 9:28 : Thank you so much for that. I think these conversations about space, and everything that you're mentioning that make it so political and navigated by people means that we also have to think really critically about how people decide to tell stories about those spaces and decide to remember and create and continue what those spaces meant to them. And a big part of your project is using oral histories in order to highlight people's experiences of these spaces. So can you speak a little bit to what these oral histories represent for your project and how you engage with them as primary sources that tell these stories about space?
MEO 10:11 : So, you know, when I started kind of like approaching the project and asking myself, you know how am I going to tell the story? That's when I decided to use oral history. Because for me, it was really important or the adequate way to reveal the history and the legacy of this space if the space doesn't exist anymore. And if there no evidence about these spaces, the most powerful way was to compile information, that oral history about the spaces to kind of like map and to render this image, or this scene, or the spaces that were only available in the memory of the people, you know. Memories is resistance and memory to kind of like reclaim and rebuild and remap these spaces that are not available anymore.
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HLC 11:06
Now, we'll be turning to two testimonios to learn together from the oral histories archive. Marcos, can you share our first recording with us?
MEO 11:17 : Of course, the first this first testimony was provided by Mickey Melendez, this Mickey Melendez, is a Young Lord. He was member of the Young Lords Party at the late 1960s and in the beginning of 1970s. And I really liked my conversation, and because, you know, Mickey was the younger one that was most connected with music. In his teenage years, he was really connected organizing parties in the Bronx, you know, before becoming a Young Lord. And, and after he was a Young Lord, he also was really involved in organizing salsa concerts and concerts all around the city. So he was someone that really understood this connection between social justice, activism, and salsa music. This is the first testimonio:
Mickey Melendez 12:03 : When you're in el barrio, anybody, you're safe, right? Because everything is okay there, whatever happens there, you're forgiven. There’s a way of talking to people, there's a way of being in all the existing in el barrio. Once you step out of el barrio, now you're stepping out into the world. So one way of looking at these spaces that you’re talking about is that we created our own little barrios, wherever we went to be safe in the them, you know, we can talk our language, you know, or the broken Spanish and English that we grew up with, you know, that we could dance to our music, you know, or that we can make fun at each other, you know, without other eyes looking at us, and that's because we created these barrios, you know, if you define barrio as a safe place for you to be who you are.
MEO 12:58 :
What kind of really motivates me and makes me this testimony to love is this idea of how salsa empowered the community to appropriate and to intervene spaces, you know. He's talking about that at a time you will, you'll only felt safe, and love in the barrios you know, but what happened was that salsa motivates people, or motivated a community to start kind of like intervening all around the city. So it's understanding you know, how salsa really allowed and empowered this community to intervene spaces and get out of the barrios. So for me, that's something beautiful, it's a way of being seen, it’s a way of extending our presence, it’s a way of reclaiming our presence.
HLC 13:42
That's so beautiful. And it reminds me of something that Melissa and I have talked about a lot with this project, this idea of like, the meta barrio, for example, and thinking about how, like, the organizing framework of the barrio empowers so much of this work to happen. And I really appreciate how not only is Mickey highlighting this in what he's saying, but how it's also a structuring element in some ways for the work that you are doing and understanding what the barrio means for people in the literal sense of the place of el barrio in New York City, but then also taking that and expanding it for what salsa means in other parts of the city, and then in so many other places as well. So I find that really, really impactful.
MH 14:32
What a great story. We'll move on to testimonio number two, go right ahead Marcos.
MEO 14: 38
Cool, so yeah, so the second testimony that I choose was provided by Aurora Flores. You know, Aurora Flores, is a journalist. I really admire her as a journalist, you know, because she was the first Latina woman at Billboard. She actually was one of the reporters that constantly covered the salsa scene in New York City for Latin New York Magazine, you know, like this kind of like important magazine like since 70s that kind of like recorded and archive and preserve salsa. And I really respect and I admire her so much. And I decided to include her testimony because I also want to address you know, the violence and kind of the machismo central culture in the salsa scene at that time. Although, you know, we're talking about the resistance and power and unity and, and so forth, for me, it's also really important to kind of understand and to explore, you know, what were some of the conflict things that happened at that time. And especially coming from the voice of a woman and from her experience I really want to address and to validate that. And I decide to include this testimony because she talks about one of my favorite spaces that's called the New Rican Village. I really love this space because it was an alternative space you know, at that time there were like these kind of like dichotomy, you know, there were like these more kind of like traditional salsa spaces and salsa clubs. But also there was like these new kind of like alternative leftist spaces and yeah most of the testimonies center of that kind of difference between these two spaces and these two different kinds of things that happen at the same time. And for me her testimony is of really valuable because of that. Let's hear it.
Aurora Flores 16:26
English version:
When I saw the atmosphere, especially at the end when everyone was crazy after they (club managers) said “last call.” and guys were trying to see who they would take home. I would get depressed. So, you know, if I was not with a friend of mine listening to music, a band, like I was not interested in going to those places. The first time I went to a club was as a reporter. I didn’t grow up going to clubs, so... And when I went to a club, the first time I went to the Caborrojeno with my mother, they separated me from my sister, and we had to dance with those greasy old men and everything. They don’t want to dance with you, all they want to do is touch you. It’s inappropriate you know? So, I liked the New Rican Village and other places like that. Although there was always a little bit of that (harassment in the New Rican Village) but it wasn’t so intentional. Okay? In the other places, it was intentional. And in the New Rican Village it was not like that. For me it was a safe space because if a guy got very obnoxious, I went to the musicians. I would tell Eddie who was the owner “Look, this guy is bothering me.” They would take him out themselves. If I wanted to dance alone or if I wanted to dance with my friend, with my sister, with whoever... If I wanted to bring my puppy and dance with him, no one was going to tell me anything. (Laughs.) If I wanted to go naked or with a t-shirt not wearing a bra, no one was going to say anything. No one was going to come and look as if they have never seen boobs in their lives (like they did in other places.) It was very different, very different. I felt like I could go there as an artist, that I didn’t need to wear makeup, that I didn’t need to impress anyone... as if I was in a showcase. Like “hey, look how sexy I am.” you know? It was like, I was a journalist, so I was there doing my job, documenting. But when I wasn’t a journalist, I liked going there to share ideas, to read books and to discuss them. In those days we were reading 100 Years of Solitude. And we were discussing how it affected us, how I couldn’t do any of that in those other clubs (laughs.) You couldn’t even speak in those clubs. The music was very loud and it was not the same.
Spanish version:
Yo veía el ambiente, y especialmente al final que todo el mundo estaba bien rematado. Y cuando decían “last call” tu ves los hombres desesperados, buscando a quién podían convencerla que se vaya a la casa con ellos. Me deprimia. Entonces, ya tu sabes, si yo no estaba con una amiga mía escuchando una música, una banda, como que no me interesaba ir ha esos sitios.
La primera vez que fui a un club fue para trabajar. Yo no me crie yendo a los clubs. So y cuando fui a uno, como te dije, la primera vez acabe jugando con mi mamá, que me separaron de mi hermana y que teníamos que bailar con esos viejos grasosos.Y todo que te quieren, no bailan con uno lo que te quieren hacer estar tocándote. No me gustaba. Sabes?
Entonces, me gustaba más el New Rican Village, sitios como esos. Siempre había un poquito de eso, pero no era tan intencional, ok ahí era intencional. Y en estos sitios no era así para mí. Era un sitio seguro. Porque si un tipo se ponía muy odioso, yo iba a lo músico ,yo iba a Eddie, que era el manager, que mira el tipo me está molestando. Ellos mismos lo sacaban.
Si yo quería bailar sola, si quería bailar con mi amiga, con mi hermana, con quien sea. Si yo quería tener mi perrito y bailar con él nadie me hiba decir nada. Si yo quería entrar en bajones y una camiseta y no ponerme un brasier, nadie me iba a designar. Ni me iban a venir los tipos a mirarlo así como si nunca han visto tetas en su vida. Muy diferente, muy diferente.
Yo me sentía como que yo podía ir ahí como un artista, lo que no necesitaba pintarme no necesitaba ponerme en una exhibición, como si tuviera una vitrina. Como ven mira, mira como estoy qué buena.
Entonces, ya sabes, era como bueno, yo era periodista, entonces yo estaba ahí haciendo mi trabajo, documentando. Pero cuando no era periodista me gustaba ir la compartí idea, a leer libros y discutirlo. En eso dias estábamos leyendo 100 años de solitud y como nos afectó como yo no podía hacer nada de eso en esos clubs. Tú ni podía hablar en esos clubs, la música era bien dura y no era lo mismo.
MEO 19:04
And, you know, it was amazing her commitment to journalism to telling the truth because although you know, she was supporting the community, she was covering salsa histories and all of that, when the truth needs to be told she did that. So that's something that I really kind of respect. And I admire like a lot. And yeah, you know, that's why this testimony is so powerful, because in a way elucidates and shows the experience of women at that time, I know that probably with my project, we tend to kind of like romanticize the spaces as safe spaces and as valuable spaces and spaces that were everything, were cool and chill, you know, and everything still feels safe. But you know, also I want to understand and address that. Yeah, things like this happened because of salsa was really macho centered culture. So for me, it was really important to navigate and to include testimonials like these.
HLC 19:56 :
We've talked so much about what Where We Were Safe means for the people that have participated in it and what it's meant to create this project. And of course, this project also means a lot to the communities that continue to remember these spaces that may or may not continue to exist. So Marcos, can you talk a little bit more about the kinds of bridges that communities have built with the project? And where you see Where We Were Safe going in the future as well?
MEO 20:23 :
Of course, yeah, you know, I noticed when I published about the project, a lot of people wrote me, you know, like DMs, and you know, send me emails and stuff like that. And that's when I start kind of understanding, you know, like, how a project like these kind of start reaching, like conversation between families and, you know, within the community and these kind of dynamics, you know, and that's something I really love. So, for example, you know, like, when you are a newcomer, a lot of people have told me that this is like a good project, or a good introduction, you know, to explore the history of the community with the city. Another thing that really is something that I really want to stress and to motivate in the project, is the intergenerational communication.
In the end, you know, this idea was to make the story more accessible. That's why I did this interactive arcade, that's why it is this interactive map, because it's on the internet, because it's an interactive website. Most of the people that have engaged with them are like Latinx people or young people. And what happened there, you know, is that, thanks to the project, they started having more intergenerational communication about this topic with their families. So once someone told me that she discovered this, this space, she discovered this, this project, and she started talking with their family with their tios, with their abuelas you know, their parents about these spaces, and was like, “Hey, I didn't have idea that these spaces exist, were you part of them?”
So you know, for me it was really important how this project started these intergenerational communications and these oral histories in their own families. And that leads me to another point, you know, that thinking about how the community start thinks about history, there is like a lot, these kind of like white supremacy side of mind, about history and white in our community. What I mean with this is that, you know, sometimes we don't value our community, we don't value our history, but with projects like these, that bridge with the communities can have understanding that kind of reframing the idea of what history is, and it's valuable in what's worth preserving.
So a really important thing about this project is that I was not really interested in interviewing the big stars, you know. I was not interested in, you know, like, interviewing with these big salseros of famous success. I was really interested in interviewing the people: journalist, club bouncers, you know, the owners of the newspaper that you got out to these places to dance. The conscious decision there was, you know, because I'm interested in the community, in the people that literally occupy the spaces in which history has been not preserved, but also this idea of how we started to reframe and rethink about what history is, you know. So I'm not thinking, you know, these big stars, but in real people that struggled at that time, and they be of families, families, that it doesn't matter, you're famous or not, but your story matters, because your experience is the experience of a whole community as well. That's another way that how the project has engaged with the community and like, trying to kind of reframe these kind of idea of what history is and what needs to be preserved.
And thinking about how this kind of like leads to the future of the project and how the community will engage with it, I really want to think this project as open methodology. You know, as you have like programs with open source on the internet, I'm thinking this project as an open methodologies. I really want to return the knowledge that I gained through this project to the community. And a way to do that is that I want to give these oral history and mapping techniques that I use and materials that I used to create Where We Were Safe, so that communities can through a workshop access to them to create their own maps or mapping projects in their own context, you know. It's this idea of how I can engage with community and how I can give back to the community. And it's important for me, because this is a good way in which they can empower themselves to reach this historical narrative.
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MH 24:25 :
Thank you to Marcos for sharing his wisdom and stories with us. We will leave you all to reflect on what we talked about with a quote from Eddie Palmieri’s “La Verdad.”. Herman, take it away.
HLC 24:52 :
A los jóvenes les dejo mi consejo
Lo que digo es puramente cultural
En el alma se encuentra la respuesta
Raza latina, ya va a despertar… and in Eenglish
I’ll leave my advice to the youth
what I tell you is explicitly cultural
You will find the answer in your soul
Latinos, we are now waking up
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MH 25:07 :
Thank you and gracias for listening to Oíste. I’m Melissa…
HLC 25:12 : …and I’m Hermán. To learn more about Oíste, American Latino heritage, and Telling All Americans Stories at the National Park Service, please visit nps.gov/subjects/tellingallamericansstories
MH 25:25 : Tune in to the next episode “Writing and Broadcasting the Spirit of Salsa” where we will be in conversation with Felix Contreras about all things music.
HLC 26:36 : Hasta pronto!
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