It struck me and i can remember at sunset flying up to 45 000 feet.
and seeing the sunset again. and then the stars come out and realize that....
well, we human beings are one small aspect in a mighty grand universe.
♪♪ Bugle plays along with drums ♪♪
hello, and welcome back to the charles young buffalo soldiers national monument veterans podcast.
i'm your host ranger tom engberg. in part two of this episode we continue our exclusive sit
down with legendary tuskegee airman general charles e. mcgee. our special introduction for
this episode comes from park superintendent, dr. joy kinard at tuskegee airmen national historic site.
Dr. Kinard...
my name is joy kinard and i am the superintendent of the tuskegee airman
national historic site. i want to thank superintendent robert stewart of the charles
young buffalo soldiers national monument for inviting me to be part of the veterans podcast.
the tuskegee airmen were the first african-american pilots and ground crews
to train for the army air corps during world war ii. they fought two wars, one against
racial prejudice in the united states and another against the axis of powers overseas.
their success in fighting both wars is called a double victory. during world war ii, moten field
located in tuskegee alabama is where the army did an experiment to see if
african americans both men and women could fly military planes.
this is where general mcgee was trained as a tuskegee airman.
he trained at moten field right here in alabama where he graduated in 1943.
he was one of over 992 pilots who graduated from the flight training program.
overall there were over 15,000 tuskegee airmen. these included the crew chiefs, line chiefs, pilot
instructors, civilian aides, mechanics, liaison pilots, parachute packers, and so much more.
shortly after general mcgee passed away i talked to his daughter yvonne mcgee as a park the staff
decided to live stream his funeral service for the general public. and, we're working with the governor
of alabama who will also recognize him this year during tuskegee airmen day with a visit.
my grandfather, gene williams, was in the navy during world war ii
and traveled all over the world. when i'm at the site i often think about him.
and although he wasn't a tuskegee airman, his story is intertwined with theirs which makes me so proud.
thank you so much and i hope you enjoy the podcast.
thank you, dr kinard. now, for part two of this special episode of the
veterans podcast featuring general charles e mcgee. we hope you enjoy this podcast episode.
well, to give you the the real picture, the first squadron of black pilots, 99th pursuit squadron,
had gone already been overseas about a year. they were into north africa attached to white groups
but not at their base they had their own base. the commander of that group didn't want them and
said they weren't doing well, they only shot down one aircraft, we told you they weren't
aggressive, they should be patrolling liberia. well, there were no germans in liberia.
but a study here, back at home, has only been in combat a short time, uh, remain in combat
and and their bombs on target after study were equal to what the other units were doing.
but so they moved out of north africa and into sicily, out of sicily, into italy at the time they
were going into italy at the same time that the group the other three squadrons arrived directly
in italy but i always said there was a bit of integration on their movement because now they
were attached to group and bill bates not like mohmeyer he was just glad to have more aircraft
and and so on to do the job and over the anzio beach head time frame 99th pilots shot down
more than a dozen german aircraft so it was a matter of opportunity. and and so about the 332nd
fighter group uh we you know say we're combat right in the p-40 but said oh you are going
to do some patrol work we did some quick combat training in the p-39 and the group was patrolling
naples harbor and the waterways to the anzio beachhead the 99th with the was flying still flying the p-40
and with the group as i say during the anzio beachhead time frame but it was at this time
time frame that the leadership in 12th and 15th air force realized that our they thought we had
enough guns on our bombers to protect them from the german air force. that wasn't true.
and a bomber down, 10 american lives lost. so they pulled the four
groups from 12th tactical air force and moved to, we move from the uh naples area of italy to the
adriatic side, folger area and began escort work in the spring of of 44 so from
as i say flying the p-39 wasn't escort aircraft we gave the p-39 to the russians and picked up
p-47 thunderbolt which we only had about three months and then the all four groups ended with the
p-51 mustang and of course i always qualified i say the mustang with the rolls-royce engine
was the perfect aircraft for the job that we had. range, speed, and altitude capabilities nothing else like it.
it's interesting and i might say somebody would say well how'd the red tail story come about
somebody in 15th air force was wise enough to realize that suddenly bringing these american
aircraft to escort the bombers the gunners needed to know that hey these are friendlies not german
aircraft and they decided one group had a yellow tail one had candied stripe and one had
checkerboard 332nd fighter group red tails. that's how that came about so that the the four groups these
new aircraft showing up are there to help you and defend save american lives not uh there are german.
we were fighting and in my mind to destroy germany's war making potential not kill germans.
and of course many lost their lives as, as many americans did because a war is a war
everybody isn't safe. i think it's been written since that time that there was that i'm sure many
of the german pilots felt the same way because, they, uh, there's the story and, and the pilots
have since, the german pilot has come to america and gotten together but the plane
the bomber was damaged but still flying back to england and the german fighter could have
shot him down he flew along got a picture and left. so it's it's some interesting aspects of
what was taking place. as i say our army leadership never changed that mobilization policy.
i'm sure many germans weren't fighting for nazism or for hitler but for country.
i had flown 136. i had 80, 82, uh tactical missions in the p-39 and 82 and 54 strategic missions
i guess a way to place it that was doing the escort work so 136 we were supposed to come out
of combat with 50 missions. didn't apply to us. we had to wait till a replacement showed up. the army
still hadn't changed their mobilization policy and and although our performance was meeting standards,
the leadership, i guess, wasn't ready to make, the right person hadn't shown up to to make
make that decision. but when we look back at what took place, the army never changed the policy.
the war ended, they still still segregation the air force separated from the ground forces in 1948.
their studies saying we need to use people based on training experience and where needed not
color their skin and and we're not getting enough money to keep a base segregated and meet our
requirements we need to integrate. they were backed at the same time by a very courageous president.
harry truman who said we need to integrate and the air force accepted that came the first but
truman said all of the services need to integrate. i think in history we found out the army and navy
a little bit but really didn't get fully on board until the korean war.
but our air force led our country in equal access and equal opportunity
in europe segregation is still there. we went over
we operated as segregated squadron and so on. more than half of the
bomber group even at the end of the war didn't know that the red tails were black pilots.
the escort work many didn't get that story until back at home. and occasional
occasional reunion gatherings.
but when you speak of of that, the, to me, the experience overseas has always been different
than here at home. and in fact some can will tell you the story coming down gangplank after the
because most of the movement of large number of troops was by boat rather than
air in in those earlier days um and coming down gangplank, whites this way, blacks this way
and my experience
the way we felt segregation even even my wife
i can remember her once saying she'll be glad when the day or she was glad that the day had come
that when we went into the club somebody didn't say
nice to see you people rather than saying hi charles and francis. difference and this is
what i found in in many of my travels in the countries that i've been in that
overseas i was oh you're charles met charles here is it's more oh you're black.
for years i think that's slowly faded away not gone in many many areas but that's the little
difference that i see in in travels around around the world that for for many many years
overseas areas you were who you were by name not by color of skin.
i think uh, the same way women weren't even a part of it now they are slowly
the opportunity has become available for i say blacks and women and uh talent doesn't isn't
spelled in sex or race and and so slowly we provide access and opportunity
for those who want and who get the training and and aspire to serve in a particular way.
when i graduated my instructor said too bad they don't have a bomber program for you guys because i
think you'd make a good bomber pilot. neither of us knew that they had already approved medium bomber
training for tuskegee. 477th bomb group and again with all of the necessary support became a part
of the training at uh at tuskegee and, in fact, when i came home although i was a fighter pilot i ended
up being a twin engine instructor. but the bomb group fought that battle because in their training
mohmeyer wanted to and he had general hunter's i think first air force approval to say on his
base trainees can only use the facilities he designated. he wanted to do this because
family the white families were using the officers club. he didn't want the black pilots using the
officers the officers club. they paid for it because they took your club dues out of your
pay before you didn't get your money and paid the club. they took the money because you're an officer.
you had that privilege but he didn't want the pilots to have it and so he wrote a
base regulation saying trainees you can only use the facilities i designate.
their club was some out out of the way building not the club and of course knowing regulations
and knowing that they had paid for it the officers peacefully tried to enter the club were denied and
101 of them were arrested and shipped off from freeman field, indiana to godwin field kentucky.
barbed wire, guards, no less. worse treatment than german prisoners of war at the adjacent fort knox.
but that brought a hearing but the army didn't change the policy. the war is over 332nd fighter
groups back home they said well we'll keep a couple of the bomb squadrons reactivate the 99th
and hmm godman field's not the base for oh they opened up lockbourne air base south of columbus, ohio.
segregated base when training in 46, war's over in 45. when training i mean when the war ended in 46
where they went they when they closed the training rather than tuskegee in 46 where did we go?
lockbourne air base, columbus, ohio. and as i say it was two years later when the uh our air force was
born if you will the air army service separated from the army and determined that they needed to
make a change they made that change when they closed lockbourne air base first of july 1949.
and we were scattered, really scattered, around the world.
thank you for joining us for this episode of the veterans podcast featuring general charles e mcgee.
we look forward to you joining us for the conclusion of this very special episode in part three.
until then, i'm your host, ranger tom engberg. stay healthy, stay safe.
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