When you start a big project like this, carving a totem
pole, are there a set of first steps that you usually take?
Well, in doing a reproduction is totally different from when I'm
doing a brand new one because the approach is totally
different. I'm doing the reproduction of a reproduction,
so this is third generation of this one, but the more I
research and dug into this story of the Waasgo Legend Pole, the more I
found out there was more to know. I mean, I found four
historic, four historic, poles that had the same story that were all
Haida in three different villages. Two of them were in
the same village and next to the,
the one I'm kind of following is.
There are two poles, identical, almost identical,
identical story to a point, the top of this one, we don't
know there was more to it, but it rotted away so when it came
here got cut off and changed a bit. But I have the historic
photos of it when it's still in the village, the top part, you
still couldn't tell what was up there, but it definitely is
different from the one right next to it, which had the same
story on it also. And then you go to nearby village of Howkan
they had an even more
impressive pole, more detail. That's the one I'm closely following
as it's got the more detail and realism and realistic and and
depth. And so,
there was that. And then digging in- I've been to the British Museum
some years ago, but it didn't come back to me. But then I got
notified on the, they didn't have- they were moving their poles
around and cleaning them. And then they move their polls, quite large, but
their pole's inside the British Museum had the same story.
But it looks a lot different, but it has a lot
more, a lot more, but you still see the son-in-law.
The mother-in-law. The Waasgo in its natural form,
Waasgo in its ocean form. It has, they all have the same
features there, but some have a different top.
Yeah, and I guess going off of that, could you explain what
you found out about its story and a little bit about the
individual characters on the pole, how they fit in together?
Well, in research, I found a few different variations of
stories on this pole. This story of the Waasgo,
It also this is a Haida pole, Haida legend, but
it's also a Tlingit legend, but the name is
different that Danica Day. It's the same story with
Mother-in-law that the son-in-law is always trying to
appease and trying to-
impress, that may be what it- However, you want to say that, well, it
never really happens. Well, she,
He ends up dying in the story and she,
is kind of exposed for who she was. And I've seen different
writings on this. Some people call her evil. I don't really
like that term, others other just call her,
not being truthful, yeah yeah.
Yeah, could you? I guess summarize the most common
version of the story. If you're comfortable doing that.
The story that I- the most simplified version of that
I'll tell, because I know to properly tell this story, I'm
sure it probably took a couple hours to tell.
But on the pole we have, I'll start down here. The bottom we have
a figure that I believe was never on the pole originally. It was
added on and I, well
But it says that it is it's representing the Lake where this
took place, and then we have above that is Waasgo, an his
ocean form. His seagoing form.
Meaning he's been trapped by the son-in-law in the lake. He,
the son-in-law, made a trap, trapped Waasgo and killed him, and skinned
him. And so this is the form
when he is in the skin goes out to the ocean and
brings back, this is a little killer whale here.
So. I'm working my way up. We have the son-in-law up here, this is a frog,
and then there's a bird come out of the ear, of the Waasgo, another
frog and then Waasgo in his natural form. He's got kind of a
duck bill turned down duck beak, and it's the one thing on all
the poles that I've seen. I've seen four historic poles with
this story and a number of model totem poles with the same story.
Some ceramic pieces, which is totally bizarre. But anyways,
and then also a,
well, George Benson, the guy who did the first reproduction I
just recently saw a photo of him with a model of his version of
this story with all the characters and it was much more
detailed then the reproduction he did in there. Just saw like two
nights ago on on a program.
So then on the very top is Waasgo in his natural form, and then on the very top is two Cedar
trees put together that are representing the trap that
the son-in-law built to capture the Waasgo. And then that's the
mother-in-law, sitting down inside the trap there.
She's dressed as a shaman, a medicine woman, in her
portraying herself as one when she really wasn't one. So
anyways, the story. Those are the images on here. The story is,
son-in-law wanted to marry their daughter and could never
appease the mother-in-law and was never going to be good enough
for her. But over time was allowed to marry and,
I guess at this time the village was going through a drought of
food and whatnot, and then he knew, grew up hearing the
legend about Waasgo, lake monster. He knew where the lake was and was
not far from the village and built a trap and set it and
captured the Waasgo, and skinned it, and then was going to bring the
hide back to the mother-in-law to impress her but,
knowing the village was, they needed food, he was able to don
the skin of the Waasgo and swim out to the ocean. That's
him right here in the ocean form. And bring back food,
well, bring back food to the village. He'd leave it in,
on the beach, in front of the mother-in-law's house
trying to impress her, but she took it different and used it as,
kind of deceiving the villagers telling them that she was a
shaman. She's the one predicting what was going to show up on the
beach the next day. And he was nearby listening and he would
fulfill what she would predict,
and she was upping the ante every time. So went from
salmon, to halibut and seal, predicted there would be a seal
on the beach in the morning. Maybe there will be two seal in
the morning and then and then went from seals to sea lion
on up and then,
each time she'd do her shaman stuff on the you know, playing the
role which she was not and and the son-in-law still well,
one morning she said, there would be the next day, there would be
a killer whale on the beach and,
the son-in-law went out in Waasgo form and captured a sea, a killer
whale, but it was about all he could do. It nearly took him
out. It was such a big struggle. And then the next day she
predicted there'd be two killer whale on a beach. Well, that ended
up being the demise of the son-in-law, he could not handle two and
they killed him. And then in the morning they woke up, the villagers
woke up and the son-in-law was on the beach next to the skin of
the Waasgo. And that's when everybody made the connection
that it was him all along, that it was him bringing the food in and not
the mother-in-law. And it
showed her, exposed her. That's the short of it.
And this pole is a little bit different from past ones because
it's being carved in yellow cedar. Have there been any
differences or struggles working with yellow cedar, versus
red cedar?
Yeah, normally, traditionally, we work with red cedar and was surprised
to see a yellow cedar on, when we came in to check this job
out. But the differences in them, yellow cedar- it smells
entirely different than red cedar. Red cedar is definitely
the softest, but I prefer the yellow. Having worked on this
piece here and knowing I mean, I've worked on smaller ones, but
this is definitely the biggest yellow cedar that I've worked, but
it's a beautiful piece, but,
as far as how is it going to hold up and in future, I guess
we will see. Because I know when it gets sunny, warm out
or really cold out this thing cracks and pops and I can see
all these check marks just opening up and then when it
rains they close up again. So, red cedar does the same
thing, but not as severely as the yellow. So we'll see what
happens there.
And then you talked briefly about there being, George Benson re-
carving a version of this pole. What've you learned,
about the pole's history in regards to, its
movement from the villages and then, to Sitka National Monument,
and on from there. Can you tell us a bit about its history and the
working with a re-carving of a
re-carving essentially? Actually, yeah, I don't recall the exact
dates on that, but,
Yeah, I know when the pole came to Sitka.
I don't recall the exact date, but,
they came at different, at various stages. I mean, I'm not sure
the amount of time when they all slowly came here. But our pole,
like I said, it had, it had about three more figures on top
of this, it got cut down because it was rotted away and
then when it came here, the CCC, Civilian Conservation Corps,
they're the ones that cut off the top part and trimmed it up,
as well, as I believe and then, did some other, on the original and
then then when George Benson was commissioned to come in and re-
carve the pole, he had the original, what was left of the
original, and had that to go by and I think he followed it pretty
closely. Because his pole in there looks just like the one
except for little skinnier.
Yeah, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Yeah, just having you go
through all the different variations to carve.
You said you found different pictures from the past
but also the re-carving.
What was it like almost taking these different versions and
combining them into your own version? Yeah yeah, so
while researching all these different polls, these historic ones
and the photos that I have, and looking at the first
reproduction which is right inside the building here.
They said that because I am telling the same story I could NOTE Confidence: 0.74753404
have the older photos, so kind of giving me the leeway to,
incorporate them all and I'm kind of, the pole out of Howkan
I think has had the most depth, most clean lines that I could
see and the best photos of. So that's the one I'm closely
following. I believe the one inside is lacking because when
the CCC recarved a lot they changed, they cut down,
and the designs changed, taking just taking down a layer, you
lose some, you lose a lot of the original, so having the
older, the better, historic photos rather than following the
one in there. I'm still following them in there. It's
all got the same, the same placement and everything but, just,
able to push it a little deeper, a little further.
Is that, by the time George Benson was doing his re-carving of the original Waasgo,
Legend Pole, it had changed significantly, like you said, they
cut off the top and they re-carved parts of the bottom as
well, right? Yes.
But you were able to go back now and look at resources Benson just
wouldn't have had.
I guess I'll move on to- Have you had a favorite figure or detail in
this pole to carve so far?
Well, I'm kind of everywhere on this pole right now. I just
inside the ear here,
put in that bird in there,
that's a kingfisher.
The one I really like,
the one out of Howkan, had a
frog coming out of the ear,
but I have a frog right here and they
all have a frog right here on them,
so I thought
I really want to, I like the frog,
but I, let's go ahead and
go with the bird, because the
one side has the bird and the
original has a bird there. So this bird
doesn't look like the bird in there,
those in there,
you can't really tell what they are.
They kind of look like baby birds to me
because of the giant bulging eyes but you
don't have any detail for the rest,
so I turned, mine's a kingfisher.
And a kingfisher,
because this is a Waasgo lake monster
you'll see kingfishers around,
yout got to, to get from the lake to the ocean,
You have to go through the River to
you have to go through the river and so, kingfishers make sense.
So that's what I did there.
That's where I was last week,
but as far as now, this whole piece is, such a,
well, to begin with,
out of all the poles in this park,
this, this one here with this story is
the most complex design, the most complex,
not the biggest,
but it's, as far as what's going on there, and
the opportunity to go through
all these historic photos and look and
researching on my own and,
seeing and then, having
people come in with information,
it is so much fun to do.
So, this is, I'm, out of all
the poles in this park,
I'm glad it's this one.
And then, after this,
I'm sure you're focused on this
project right now,
are there any, future projects, things
you've always wanted to do, in wood,
that you have planned for the future?
There are things I've always wanted to do,
I don't have this studio
space, shop space, right now,
but I'm working on it.
I think by springtime I'll have a new studio.
To do some of the things that but, I
just recently had a couple,
since being out here,
I had a couple of people come by and want to
commission me to do them some artwork after
this job is done,
so it's stuff,
yeah, totally customized.
So there are things in the works.
And before COVID, I was
talking with two different people, NOTE Confidence: 0.77397305
two different businesses over, in Georgia
for a forty foot pole and a twenty foot pole,
but then, COVID hit and that all went
away. And then, this one came along,
I had no idea this was even in the works,
but so fortunate that it's all worked out.
But there's one other local business
that had approached me before this job,
came along about a pole for them so,
there are things out there.
And then, are there any
final thoughts that you have
about your Waasgo Legend Pole or
carving, anything related to that?
Well, I don't know. That's always
the end where,I get asked that and
I always come up with a blank, I don't
Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah, well, thanks for talking with us today.
We really appreciate it. Absolutely.
And we are looking forward to seeing
it when you're finished.
It already so amazing, so. Getting there.
Well, thank you.