So, uh, we are here today. This is March
31st, 2021. It is the last
day of Women's History Month.
So very important month indeed.
And we're here today with a very,
very important woman and we would
like to have a discussion with a
lady who is incredibly resilient.
And inspiring Miss Maude Burroughs Jackson.
And my name is Ted Johnson and I'm a park
Ranger with the National Park Service.
I work at Timucuan Ecological
and Historic Preserve,
but working with several different
projects that are investigating
African American history and
I'm working with the the region,
the Southeast region,
and so this is an extension of
that and I'm working on a project
with Castillo de San Marcos in
Saint Augustine and so I research.
Will be the basis for for several
different initiatives and one
is that we are nominated now,
not meeting the site to be included
in the National Park Service.
African American Civil Rights Network and
so that will entail several different.
Will say.
And several different ways of
connecting with the individuals
in the community and individuals
who have a recollection of what.
Will say the climate was like doing
the civil rights demonstrations
in Saint Augustine,
and particularly around the
time period 1963 and 1964.
And so we're honored to have you
mod to speak with us and share
some some recollections.
And if if you are ready,
I have a a series of questions I'd
like to ask and we can go right on
ahead if you already if you're sad.
Alright,
first I do want to thank again
Maureen for sending me a copy of this
incredible anthology embedded in Clay.
This really helped me to get a better
understanding more of your your
background and your early life experience,
and I just want to share this.
This photograph is adorable.
Back in there. And, uh,
how old Al would you have been
at that time period about?
What did you say?
I would laugh so I didn't hear Oh well,
how would you been at that time period?
Five years old.
OK, excellent my God
and so just researching a bit
understanding that you know you
grew up in the hilltop area.
There in middleburgh. Is that correct?
That's correct, yeah, anything you can
you would like to share with us and
tell us about your your early years,
your early rearing and kind
of how you were prepared.
Will say for the later period
that we're going to discuss.
In the 1960s.
Well, in the early years of our hilltop,
so I was born and read out there in Newburgh,
and we called Milberg or Cross the Creek.
It was so. Turpentine quarters and the.
Our people worked very hard in
turpentine and say whatever they could.
And their service they could.
They got a chance to move up on the
hill that keeps Macclesfield talk.
That's an area where Grant
Foreman was granted back in 1892.
And he had to farm that land and.
Received the deeds on that. So.
Hilltop has been in existence since 1892.
Wow. We have grown from five or
six families to what they are now.
They're decreasing again.
Everybody moving away from the hill,
yeah, but it has been an enjoyable
place to grow up in.
Very few problems, but yeah,
we had some as every area did and.
Yeah,
our problems and we continue to keep
growing with caring and loving community.
No, that that's great to hear.
And are you there close to
that area now again,
are you back in that similar
location or that area again?
From time to time and lived other
places in my travel and my education
and everything like that in the
60s I was in Saint Augustine,
the place speak for me.
Yeah, I received my degree in education
from Florida Memorial College,
which is not.
Memorial University, yes,
somebody with that trying to.
I had to keep trying to grow and learn more.
And do more.
Never give up. Yeah, and it seems as though
from my reading that that was something
that was instilled and you by your parents.
Maybe your father self reliance, yeah,
and so so that's that's good to know.
As far as the kind of a foundation
and then moving to the Florida
Memorial and and you know,
the time period that we're covering here.
Starting in the early 1960s,
I think you began there in in 1960.
Attending there.
Is that correct? Yes, yeah.
I finished high school in 1959,
but I didn't have money to go to school with,
so I stayed out one year and worked.
Then I went to Saint Augustine. And.
I was so blessed that I met a family,
a loving family that had children
my age and invited me in with them,
and one of the one of her,
her son, Hank Thomas.
Everybody should know the name Henry top,
who was one of the first freedom writers and.
We all got along just fine and grew together.
Oh well, we tell the system brother,
yeah,
I I was had a pleasure of meeting
and interviewing Mr Thomas myself
for several years ago in Atlanta.
So very inspiring.
So then that brings me to my next question.
So again from my research I'm
understanding that there were there
was at least an early city and that
involved students from Florida Memorial
in 1960s at 60 had a Woolworths.
Yeah, I'm just trying to get an idea
of the general climate at that point.
As far as race relations and maybe you know,
student.
Motivation if you could share
with us some of that.
Well,
the students weren't really welcome downtown.
And but they went anyway.
We are would have mass meetings.
And come together and some of the
students from Florida Memorial
got together with some of the
students at Murray High School.
We would go out and walk them to downtown.
And.
Get involved because the field
there at that time was we must do
something to bring about change
and the young people were not
satisfied with the way things were.
And we just had to find out what
could we do to help things change and.
Through the meetings.
Mass meetings and workshops and.
Just getting together,
sitting out on the tree and
under on the ground and whatever.
We had to do but one thing for sure,
it had to be non violence that peacefully
done taking into consideration some of
the people were older people and this was
their home saying Augustine was their home.
So you didn't want disturbance.
Anybody getting killed there
or anything like that.
The also there were families that.
Beat up and burned up,
but their homes burned.
We made it through.
Yeah, there was one person there.
Doctor Robert Behaving and Doctor
Haynes and all the rest of them.
They always said never give up.
He believed in it.
Do your best and never
give up fighting again,
but not about $9 without keeping up.
So I'm sorry I know you said please,
please go ahead,
what would we we would meet and just
discuss about how things should be.
Do you commit it? And.
You follow through yeah,
and so that was led early
on by a doctor hailing.
And that was also along with the NAACP.
Is that correct?
It was a youth group.
Internal ACP started within
the homes in different homes,
but we didn't have a meeting place.
For many years,
blacks have a place that they
could come together and meet and
have our discussions of things.
So either you met in the homes or
in the churches, and most churches.
To the point that they were,
they were afraid because they
had to protect their people.
They had to protect their memberships
and stuff like that, yes?
Later in the 60s, like 6263,
when Doctor King was coming
to Saint Augustine,
so many of the black churches.
More afraid to open their doors
and let people in because.
They didn't want to be destroyed,
and they figured that if they had
these meetings and everything,
they may be growing,
as if some some of the homes are
already being burned and stuff like that,
so yeah.
Yeah, and with some of that result of again,
from my understanding the the
desegregation of some of the schools,
it seemed like there was a
significant backlash.
You spoke about the burning of the
homes and and early threats around
that period. Yeah yeah, yeah.
They didn't want. Integration.
Sorry in favor of a
separate equal but separate.
Know your price and stay in it.
That was one of those quotes,
so your place in it so. Yeah,
and then as far as your initial you know,
involvement in trying to get an idea
of your age and and say you are role.
You know in in early activism you know what.
What was the what were you doing?
Kind of what was your role?
How did you participate? Well?
I participated very much in the
activities between classes.
I went to school.
Classes I went down to the office.
It started one day I went to the
dentist office and from that one day
on in 1960 I would work in the office.
Have organized and everything and
getting how many people were getting
ready for the when we saw the feeling.
The jail and stuff like this or who
were going to sit in and who would
go to the mass meetings who go and
visit schools and talk to the people
at the school and in the community.
So we were very active in doing
these things and spreading the word.
That's really what it was because we
didn't have all this modern day activities.
That we use today.
Yeah, we had to walk around and then do this.
It wasn't that easy,
yeah?
And you were doing that through
through the neighborhoods.
Or you know how were you
spreading that that work?
I mean, you know this is obviously it's a.
It's a very.
It's a courageous move especially,
you know with the organization
and then just to share that
with as you've shared already,
a community that had some
fears and some trepidation.
So you know how well you did,
you find it.
Motivated, yeah,
yet as we walked around with signs.
And we got young people involved in
activities that we were trying to make
sure that everybody knew what was going
on and everybody knew about non violence.
That was one of the key things we had to make
sure that we were going to integrate St.
Augustine, but it was going to
be done peacefully. Not down.
And we may sign saying mass meeting tonight,
mass meeting tonight and will tell
where the mass meeting would be and
tell everybody to come to that church,
that particular church.
Whatever small group we would have really
great there at Doctor Haider's office.
That's where we used to have most of
our meetings that there in the office.
And, uh.
At Saint Paul and Saint Peter Church
needed those churches and yeah,
good mass meetings and after word
got around it was no problem
and especially when it said.
That the king is coming to town,
right,
got ain't got to come into Saint Augustine.
He would, uh,
mostly arrived in Saint Augustine
at night and.
One thing I felt really happy about it,
I just felt like I was somebody real
special because one night when Doctor
King was coming to town one afternoon.
This is well that came has to have
something to eat when he gets into town.
And we can't take in at each restaurant,
even though you had to go to
the bank during the daytime.
But you better not go in when I.
So Doctor Hanus asked me if
I could prepare him a meal.
And that was the highlight of
my time there you know,
I've gotta look for Doctor King.
Oh my gosh I got 2021 then yeah,
chances stay back and prepared a meal I
didn't get to go in the meeting that night.
I stayed back and prepared him a meal.
Wow A2 burner toaster.
So start up. And, uh, this is an
experience that I treasured for a long time
because to me it was something special.
They're especially to be asked to cook
and prepare something for someone to eat.
I've always considered myself a servant.
Yeah. Here. Yeah, I had.
I had again in reading.
I learned that that you very early on
had to learn to cook and prepare meals,
and you know in in your home and help
everyone had to work as you expressed,
yeah so so again, that was part of it.
There are at the age of nine
I had my first job.
Cleaning someone's house and I didn't even
have to know how to clean house myself,
but my sister-in-law would
take me to work with her and.
I've got about $0.75 a day.
Wow, I could work and out of that
$0.75 I was able to do a lot.
You know,
back in the day we accomplished a lot.
Sometimes it's upsetting to hear
people say that black folks won't work.
And I've been working here since I was nine.
So now, if I may say I'm 79.
So and I probably and I have been working,
and when I'm not working I don't feel right.
I feel like I should be doing something,
even if it's going out volunteer,
and that's what I do a lot.
So that it must be your secret.
Then as far as how you look so 79.
It's hard to believe.
Can say useful now that's good.
Yeah yeah no,
that's a that's great to hear and
then one other thing you did mention.
You know the non violence.
Our where you prepared and you
know it sounds like just the idea.
The thought of confronting individuals,
even if you're out there demonstrating
with signs and knowing just the
general climate and some of the
violence that even had to what
was how were you instructed with?
So before the meetings taught to expect.
You know there gonna be people
out there that's not in agreement
with what you're doing.
And they are going to tag you in Word
will get out from the other side what
they were gonna do to us that night.
See if we might.
What was going to happen to them
and even one group went out?
And was captured by the other
group and they were their lives
would really threaten they were
going to burn these people up.
Doctor Heylens Jimmy Jackson,
Big Jim analogy and it carried
him out in the woods.
And,
uh.
Lay them out like you would a
log or something and sent to get
some gasoline to pull home there.
But with the gasoline?
Some troopers said come in and.
They saved them.
But many things happened during the day,
but we we were taught not to turn to God.
We cared a list to go out so we would
know who all went out that day.
Deal that list was prepared by some
of us that were working in the office
there and working from the office.
Try to keep a handle on
everything that was going on.
Yeah, you want to just get lost on the way.
Right keep keeping track of
folks that were involved.
Yeah, that were there and wanted to know,
yeah?
Feel the jail which would take quite 500,
but then we we knew who are
gone and we knew how long
they were going to stay there.
I'm at three guys with the longest.
I have a state was like seven days one
time and my mother came to Get Me Out.
You were arrested.
Oh, that was really yeah, yeah.
Three three, different times.
Three different times.
Oh my gosh, I had not told my
family back in Milberg that I was
even participating in the movement.
Well, that was a question of a good *** next.
I did not tell them that
I was participating and.
Easter Monday, my mother and
my oldest brother came to Saint
Augustine to Get Me Out of jail
because they had been watching TV.
And they saw somebody that
looked like it should be more.
Say no more, as fast as she is,
that's probably. And when they got
to get there to Get Me Out of jail,
I told them I was there for a
purpose and I could not go.
So we then went to jail. We knew.
That we were there for a purpose.
Just leave just because we could and we
stayed in there and serve that purpose
to help Field gym and get as many
people there and try to make a change.
We were there to make a change.
Yeah, changes or slow coming sometimes?
Yeah yeah that's why I was wondering
how you guess the solidarity
you know of having others.
You know in the group and even if you
were incarcerated, in addition to.
You know being encouraged by Doctor,
King, and some of the other leaders,
Dr Hayling.
So I just wonder if it helps
to explain you know what?
How you,
you know we had that courage to to do
that and I guess the solidarity was
a very seems like it was an important
aspect of being active, you know?
And.
Was trying to get an idea of when
most of the activity was going on.
You said sometimes there are things
you were doing between classes,
but the demonstrations.
Did they happen during the day and
with a night market and night?
And go in through the night we've been late.
Sometime down at the old slave market.
We will need it there.
Either we will meet at Doctor
Hayden's office and walked to the
slave market and evening meetings
with also be done that way and we
even had a trip out to vote Mosaic.
As we will follow.
Yeah, and we just went everywhere we go.
Round we were seeing. And, uh.
We need our own fault.
Sometimes we just sit out there on the grass.
It wasn't wanted that wasn't wanted, but.
We did. Yeah. Yeah, well, that was.
So that's part of, you know,
some of them were really trying to.
To concentrate on that that
particular point with the research
is is activity that went on,
you know, on as you said,
the gatherings there on
the lawn of the Castillo.
And so could you elaborate on that.
That would be very helpful for us.
For our research.
You know when you would do that,
or or how those gatherings
you know to place there.
They have marching up and down
the streets in town, downtown,
Saint Augustine there and.
Being turned away from the different
stores and things like that,
we would just be there and just
to relax in a peaceful way,
we just go there and.
You just sit there and just
reflect on what could be.
Yeah yeah yeah.
Well with and with that come,
you know we were also wondering did you?
You know what made you choose that location?
Was it?
Was there a connection already
with the community was at a place
that you would visit and just
relax. In general, we're trying to
understand the significance of the Fort.
To, you know, to the community at
that time why you're choosing that.
Just trying to get an idea.
Or very few few places that you
could gather outside of that.
That was part of the protest to meet there.
Yeah, welcome there.
There anyway and by then and open place
I guess they couldn't say get out.
Right, right, yeah,
but you knew that you weren't
welcome to go to the water fountain.
Anything like that.
If you ventured off,
if you were scheduled to venture off
and go try to do a sit in software.
You still have chance of going to jail.
Yeah, I knew who was gonna go to
jail that particular day because we
had already made up the list of who
was going to participate in this
activity and that activity or other.
Who would go Weiden 'cause
we created the beaches too.
That's why I wonder,
did you take part in in those?
Did you?
Were you involved in any of
the way it ends or yes?
Wade in most so then going down to the
waiting and I was back at the office.
I have a nice.
She's passed away now in the boroughs.
That's always right.
There.
Another one that was a student
at Florida Memorial and.
She went,
she would go down to the beach and
there was actually in the pool
when they pulled the acid in food.
Oh wow.
Oh my gosh wow,
yeah we you know we just saw I know
there was a young lady Mimi Mimi Jones
who was in photos and I think she just.
She recently passed but she was, you know I
was reading some more information about her.
At that point.
You know doing that?
That particular situation,
and again I understand if you
can recall share where you also
involved with the situation there.
At the Monson I thought I was
reading something about you.
Favorite, can you tell us about that?
Yeah please. Well, one of the times.
Several times they wouldn't
even let us in the door.
We didn't make it in the door.
We could be there at the door to go in.
One time they turned the water
hose on and let us up from outside
so we never did get inside.
Then there was a time when
the place was almost packed.
We got in. And we say it.
And then the waitress came up and said.
Uh. Yeah, I can go to the back door.
And we serve. We think you are.
Can we just sit there? We wouldn't.
We would respond. They came back again.
Yo would have to leave.
We will not serve you all here.
And we didn't respond.
He came back with third time.
And. She said.
We do not serve and I'll
be respectful and safe.
The N word I understand.
Yep,
we don't serve the N word here.
Oh we didn't order any of those.
And everybody just burst out because
I said the actual word. Yeah and.
Everybody just burst out and,
well, we're calling for that.
They did call the police and
we will arrested and. To jail.
It was just that way, but we we were
talking in our training sessions in our
strategy session that we would not respond.
You don't respond, but that was just
one time I had to say something. Yeah,
yeah wagon and carrot on the jail and then.
Yeah, I mean I did the carriage that you
had to to with sand and and utilize that
technique in particular, but it's just.
It's it's incredible.
I mean very inspiring to hear that
that that that you you you were able
to you know to set your mind to.
You know, taking, listening,
and taking all that,
but understanding that that you're
the larger the greater cause.
As you've explained,
and that's that's really something to to
put all that together as to what kept it you,
you know the driving force.
I have a few things I'd like to share.
We we have, you know,
kind of getting back to the
to the Fort to Castillo.
There are few things that and I I
know we've been talking about them
and I'm going to try to show them
here 'cause I'd like to, you know,
have some footage of one of these
gatherings so our research has indicated,
believe it or not,
that that there were actual permits
that were granted to the SCLC.
You know?
So, just for context,
you know now we've moved to kind of
beyond the NAACP and initially and then,
from my understanding again.
Is SCLC under Doctor King sends
several individuals down?
You know,
and it helps to kind of lead these
nonviolent marches because things seem to.
At one point,
we're getting a little violent
in the even the African American
community was had enough.
And was, you know, really striking that.
So. So there's this period.
It seems that you know that
that that that group.
Else is down and so you know they.
They apparently did approach
the Superintendent.
Mr.
Reynolds of of the Castillo and
actually did secure official
permission to have these gatherings.
And so we did that we were able to get
some footage of one of the gatherings.
I'd just like to show it to you and
just see if it helps to recall any of
the activities or maybe a particular
time that that you may have been there.
I did give information without a memorandum.
It's a blast to some Christmas.
That's all just despitefully using remote
officials and leaders in this city.
OK, can you?
You can still see the Internet.
Is that correct? Yes, yes.
So before I go into the net,
I'd like if you could share.
First of all, do you remember
gathering such as this or anything?
There for me, yeah.
It's so hot in in your description
what is happening here?
I mean, we're seeing you know the folks
that are obviously singing around a tree,
and we believe it's called the freedom tree.
But but what else would be involved
in a gathering such as this?
Well, there's several reasons why.
Several times that we
would do this gathering.
Sometimes after a hard March
when I see a hard March,
they've been lots of things thrown at us.
Concerned nights days they would
throw everything at the protest,
including the kitchen sink.
And this was would be at the
one of those hard matches,
and we just go there and kind of
relax you saying your Freedom
songs and talk about some of the
events we couldn't talk about
everything that had gone on that day.
But we talked about some of the
events and even give out the
plans for the next activity.
This this is one place that we would meet.
Wow,
this is this is very powerful
and then again I don't.
I understanding is that tree that
you see there in the center that
everyones congregated around.
I'll show you this a moment but we
believe that was known as the Freedom tree.
Does that sound familiar to you?
Yes,
yes.
Come and do you know how that name
came about or who who gave it
was at NSCLC or name, but anyway,
that's where the freedom marchers.
That's where we would meet at and
that might be why they decided
calling it the freedom tree because
it was one of the places we could
come together that was downtown
Saint Augustine and we didn't have to fear.
Anyone running a soy or anything like
that we could meet here and we could talk.
Felt protected there you were
there and he felt was a safe place.
We felt very safe there yeah and and
the reason I'm bringing this up now
because you know you had mentioned
before that you know he felt perhaps
you weren't welcome there and and you know,
I'm not sure.
I don't know about that.
You know you would know
what you felt a sense,
but you know we're trying to
understand a bit more too as well.
What the government's role
was and and for us you know,
especially if we're trying to as
we as we are trying to commemorate,
you know the courage of you
folks and what and what you did.
We're also trying to share with
with others that story, you know,
so our plan is to commemorate,
you know,
all you literally the foot
soldiers that were involved,
and then this tree because it was.
It did seem to be kind of a,
you know, an iconic symbol for for the group,
specially with that name,
but then also trying to understand that
the government you know we felt well,
perhaps one of the reasons that you
met here was that it was out of the
jurisdiction saof the local police,
or you know, the the clan or any
other anti integrationist factions,
and so you know with the idea that we
found we were able to locate the permits
and I'll show you that in just a moment,
but I want to ask you one
other thing here so you have.
There's also seems you know there's prayer,
so that was a big part.
There's the religious or
church oriented aspect.
Can you explain that or talk about that work?
As far back as I can remember and
that's sometimes say I remember
things from two years old.
Uh, in the black gathering.
Everybody gather. Began with prayer.
Into this day, as far as I know most.
Blacks still do that.
And we did that same thing in.
In the movement we always had
our prayers because we knew.
That we needed protection and guardians.
So that was to see a group come together.
And not. After that meeting right there.
That's why I'm doing this goodbye my next
question, but I'll let you finish your.
I'm not gonna interrupt you.
Yeah. This is Boyd.
Let me tell you.
Let me tell you man, this this is very.
This is a momentous occasion,
because I think I've mentioned to you,
David Nolan,
you know that he's been assisting us.
Assuming familiar with him.
And so I'll tell you,
he loaned us this this footage and he
looked back at it after several years
when I bet began working with him
recently and we were talking about folks
that we were going to try to reach out to.
You know they're not many
that seemed to eat recall,
you know that those that are left and yeah,
Barbara Vickers and Pauline Gilliard.
But he said.
Well, you know what in this footage.
I believe I see Marlboros Jackson.
That's who that's who we are as
responsible for this meeting today.
So let me ask,
is it with the woman that's in
the stripes here in the centre?
Or you the way we're looking at it?
Are you to the left?
Or the right?
Yes, we thought Yep and it
looked like the shape. You know,
you're the shape of your head, your skirt.
We could tell there you are.
Goodness that face.
Oh yeah, beautiful beauty.
Beautiful and I'll tell you,
this is really this is Mandy.
I was talking about where is she right
next to the one that looks like me?
So to your left,
with the glasses to my left.
I'm shorter than me and she won't last.
Oh my gosh, do you know India and then
find the others that are here now?
I know it's not the best vantage point,
but anyone else you see that?
Let's see, I'll let it run a little.
Let's go back a little bit.
Now this this is really something
I'll tell you, this is a special.
Moment for us.
And Speaking of whether any
particular songs that you felt were.
You know that their most memorable or that
that were most encouraging. I know that.
I mean, here's we shall overcome.
I gonna let nobody turn me around.
OK, yeah OK not the Kings Highway.
Indeed, and there's me sitting right here
with the Plaid skirt on. Oh my gosh.
OK 'cause I'm gonna bring up these images so
you can see this PowerPoint correct, yeah.
C4. That, uh, yeah it is.
Yes, I know this team for over there
and they refused to sign there saying
they wouldn't participate anymore.
If they had signed that,
they would not participate.
And marches anymore.
They wouldn't have gotten the jail and
from the jail to the reformatory school.
Hey there.
Refuse to stop participating. Yeah,
and the parents wouldn't sign and all that.
Wow, so you were here. Yeah?
So you're here in this.
All of them are gone.
Wow, now there were nine of
this group initially.
From what I read.
I mean from the beginning it was a
logical problem and it got down to
the Saint Augustine for the others
were old enough to participate.
That's why you know he is much about
the other part of that group, right?
They were only to participate right
before they went to farmers school.
Yeah, and this is 63. Is that correct?
Yes yeah.
So then what were your parents you know?
I mean 'cause you were?
Were you arrested here at this time as well?
Ah no, not when they were arrested.
OK,
I didn't get arrested that particular day.
OK, but that's you there in that skirt that.
And then this looks like kind
of what you were talking about.
You were describing yesterday that would.
These maybe have been students
from Florida Memorial?
Or this is kind of the getting the
word out as you were talking about.
Yes and really.
We, the students from Florida Memorial,
were not supposed to be participating.
That's what one of our leaders said,
but appeared at that time.
Yeah, yeah, but uh,
we all went on in participated anyway,
yeah well, you had a,
you know you were guided by a
different force and that's,
uh,
yeah,
supposed to some of the things that
others may not have been exposed to
because I started going out on my own.
I I can remember when I was still
in high school and then I thought I
would get off on works on weekends.
I would get on the Greyhound
bus and go to other places.
And oh, 17 and 18 years old.
Just get on the bus and ride and
then you see all these signs.
You have found the water fountain
here colored only no blacks allowed
and stuff like that, you know.
So you're seeing that throughout the South?
I see, yeah, let's see if this is everywhere.
Yes, yes.
With my family no on that part.
About me.
I was always just going off and.
Doing things on my own and not telling
them that I got back and stuff like that.
It was your spirit, they knew.
Some of them in figured it out.
Wow that is not say at that time
in Saint Augustine I could not
say more borrows from Millburn.
I couldn't use my hometown.
Oh, because of a threat to the family?
Or why would that fear
of a threat to my family?
Yes, yeah, never threaten but.
Your leaders in Saint Augustine feared that.
Because of some of the people
that lived in Clay County,
they had a bad reputation, other places.
But right there in Clay County,
some of the same people that they
were trying to protect my name from.
Sit on my porch and talk with
my dad and my dad going.
Then cook some fish.
Come on here and get something to eat.
I know you're hungry.
And nothing ever happened there in Newburgh.
Yeah, they were, you know,
we all got down there and still
do to this day. We still do.
Even though some things have been said
differently but not too many people know me.
Wow, and it's great that you're
able to be back there again.
I mean that that that to me is just it's
it's a beautiful part of the story is
that you are back where you know where
your roots are and and you're still.
You're still here and you know
you're able to reflect and and your
assisting us and others to learn.
You know even through an interview like this.
I mean, this is invaluable,
you know, and sharing with with,
you know our visitors and and you know
the others throughout the agency.
So I mean. You're still working at this,
and that's to me,
is is what's really it's it's so
admirably and I wanted to share this
with you just as we had discussed.
So, you know, these are two.
I know these are the clearest,
but we went back through and looked at.
These were basically the they were
called the Superintendent's report for
the month so you can see here, April.
You know that, says Ellie Taylor,
of of the SCLC, who,
when he was as well, Ellie Taylor, right?
Yeah,
was issued a permit to hold meetings
on the Fort Greene on April 24th,
25th and 26th.
The meetings were quite orderly
on the 24th and 25th.
The meetings lasted about 30 minutes,
with 75 in attendance.
There were approximately 100
present on the 26th and the meeting.
Lasted one hour so that helps us to
understand and then you know how this
whole process worked and that the
permission was granted but you see here,
this was from Barbara Vickers
collection this leaflet.
So do you remember leaflets like these this?
That was just saying that looked
like my handwriting.
My print handwriting right there.
He would do that looks just
like put my handwriting.
You should look back.
Well, well, well credit indeed.
Because my buddy yeah.
Can you elaborate on that on on your
relationship with Jose or some of the others?
Yeah,
he just made it so so real so and
we just enjoyed doing what we were
doing and it was so worthwhile.
It wasn't just. Playing fun all the time.
We actually got down serious sometimes and.
Hey, this is this.
Some of the things that people
would not realize about even Doctor
King all of them.
Whiting, walk all of them.
They were so down to Earth,
such down to Earth people.
That ready to do our strategizing for
the next day we would meet in that
office will be sitting on the floor.
We didn't care.
We didn't have a chair that came,
didn't care if he had a chair,
he would be right there
with all the rest of us,
and we will be making the
plans for the next day.
And what was going to happen and
making sure that we knew how to.
Observe the people that may not have
been there for a good cause because,
just like in probably that
it's still doing today.
Infiltrators would be sent in.
And we had to know how to see that person
that wasn't there for any good so they
could taken out of the group that was
going out the next day to demonstrate.
So no, you you don't know something is wrong.
You stay here.
Yes, you don't go out there because you can
cause people to get stir it up and get hurt.
That's very interesting. I did.
I know I had no idea that
that was part of the movement.
Wow, uhm, and then you know,
even with this, even that second listing
that I have here from the report,
it actually lists this particular meeting.
So Sunday May 17th, 1964.
And you see it says here at the freedom tree.
So there it is, you know.
And freedom, justice,
equality so these are obviously,
you know, universal concepts that that
that obviously resonated with you folks.
You're fighting for them for your lives,
and they still resonate with folks today.
But you know,
you see there to the left and that listing.
It says right there.
The second sentence on May 10th
meeting lasted about an hour,
probably 75 people in attendance
on this 17th.
This is the one right there.
The meeting lasted 2 hours.
With approximately 150 in attendance,
so this is really something to to be able
to piece this history all this together.
And then there is again just a
still shot of any recollections,
particularly of Ambassador Young.
Being there yeah.
Or interactions with time you got
beat up so bad. Like I said earlier.
I was there, yeah?
Yeah,
I was in a distance from him
and as a matter of fact.
When they were throwing all
the things they they got the.
The other group had gone up on top
of some buildings across the street.
And they must have worked all
day care and material up on that
building to throw us at night.
Get all kind of bugs and bricks and.
Stuff to throw at us.
And if it had not been the
person that I was marching with
that pushed me out of the way,
I would have gotten hit and hurt that night.
But we always we always
had a partner with us.
You always had partners that
you would walk with, right?
We had to lookout for each other.
We we knew to look up in jail.
If you see something come and hurt somebody
else, you don't try to get them out.
Yeah. And that's what saved him right?
Because I think it was a
really bold and or one of the.
Yeah, yeah, I'm doing that.
No, it's really interesting.
Just, you know,
understanding the the strategy,
the tactics that were utilized, you know.
And again,
the term footsoldiers really is what it is,
'cause it's you know you you can you can.
It's a parallel to military. I mean it is,
it's battle and so you have to use strategic.
Almost military esque strategies,
and I mean it with the.
It's really incredible. And then here.
Of course this is another.
Or other groups that want to come in.
And give us some pointers,
some instruction on how to do what
to do out there, but then there was
some groups that we could not let.
Help us.
Because it would have been balance.
Miller, yeah,
and we were not Apple about throughout
the improvement but not about weight.
Right, yeah?
Yeah, I had read that.
Strong enough to handle that down
in sales team so they had people
coming from everywhere also.
Yes,
yeah.
I mean I heard that I had read
somewhere where Malcolm X and he had
even they even offered to come down.
They did come down but they
didn't participate.
So that was one of the groups that came down.
Yeah wow.
And then of course the the way it ends
and you you have already talked about
about that and I guess they were, you know,
these were significant obviously.
And and from my understanding I meant
to ask you as well with the prey ends.
There were also praying.
We will just go kneel and pray.
Yeah.
Wow.
And of course,
this is the last last image here last series.
You know,
we've already.
We've talked a bit about the mountain
and James Brock and and the acid,
and you know how significant these
images were when folks saw these all
across the country, the impact, you know?
And then, of course,
I think right after this,
we had the Civil Rights Act was signed.
Yeah.
And any reflections on on either of
those two events that you mentioned a
little bit about the pool where you were.
You there present at that
time or not cold stuff.
The money she was in the pool
when he pulled that acid in it.
Gosh yeah.
And then yeah,
any reflections on the the signing of you
know of the the Civil Rights Act into law?
How did that effect not really?
God.
Yeah.
Yeah,
so meaning that it wasn't as as
effective as it may have seemed to be.
Is that what that what you mean?
Or I was out of place at
that time when they actually
signed the civil rights?
Yeah, I see, yeah.
Can't remember right now, that's OK.
Yeah, that's alright.
You know what you have done has been,
you know, just incredible.
And then just the last image I
wanted to share with you folks
again and will keep you posted.
Modum, you know as this as I said,
we we have nominated the site
Castillo for this civil rights.
You know the African American
Civil Rights Network,
one of the locations that has
already been added to the list
is is here in Jacksonville, the.
You know the heading having
square or Hemming park?
Which course was the axe handle
Saturday and now it's been named
after James Weldon Johnson,
but that is analysed site that's
on this network and so we'll work
through the National Park Service.
They'll help us to develop these
stories and figure out ways that we can
connect more with the the community.
But to get these these essential stories
you know out out to the public that
they're either lesser known or unknown.
Unknown,
so that's part of the work and you know
you're contributing to that even with this.
This interview,
so I I really appreciate that, UM.
And let me just get you back
on the actual screen here,
let me get back.
I wanna make sure. You're on.
OK, so, uh. And then I also just wanted
to chat a little bit about your teaching.
Would you tell us a little bit about that?
Because that's a very significant career
that you moved into and you tell us about
that and what inspired you to teach.
Oh, I was inspired to teach when I was a
youngster in the little one room schoolhouse.
And we had nine grades in one room.
And sometimes we head up to 47 children in.
And one teacher teaching all nine grades.
If you paid attention,
even though when you were in second
and third grade, you learn those off,
you learn what some of the older
students should be learning and.
I guess since the beginning of
time some students have been more
advanced than other students.
I can recall one particular
student that I fell in love with.
And I always wanted her to be
smart and to be able to do things,
and that was my partner. Uh.
So I would always work with
with Super Foods gone on, but.
I haven't worked with her and I
guess that's part of what inspired
me to really go and pursue becoming
a teacher that in finances.
Uhm, because really I wanted to be a nurse.
I wanted to be a pediatric nurse,
but I had my little job.
Add on weekends I would go
to the store and buy books.
The coloring books with blue golden rule.
Read the new Golden Reading book 39 times.
And I will go to Brewster's hospital,
there in Jacksonville and go
to the pediatric ward and read
with the kids or he's out.
Have coloring print coloring
books and I said I grow up.
I want to be a nurse and
work with Pediatrics.
But then I couldn't stand
to see children suffering.
I had to change that.
And I said, well, I will be a teacher.
That's what I consider doing,
and even though we'd be at on
the dirt building a Playhouse
in the grass and dirt.
And I would always have my little
school stuck right there in the dirt.
Teaching children had it right in the dirt.
In the grass, yeah.
Find any kind of anything old made
dolls from balls and put this up.
A court district, the thing they
tried the court would up with their.
And we would make her with that.
Made up to. And we had school with the
lion those balls up. You're teaching.
You might have old shoebox.
Anything and you made something
from there and you cheat.
So yeah. Developing in ingenuity.
Uhm, you know from from what you have on
a base level yeah and so how long did
you teach your career teaching career was?
35 years wow.
Now, because I did some traveling,
I had the opportunity to bury my
childhood sweetheart. Oh, wait.
It was my first marriage.
We were supposed to get married twice
that we had set the wedding date.
But when that day came.
I was locked up in jail then say no.
This team my gosh.
There he was in the military
with the top secret clearance.
Was locked in jail in Saint Augustine, oh.
So that's just the wedding.
This Council then?
They had graduated from Florida Memorial.
My niece called me.
And called the house where I was
staying and said that she was in jail.
As soon as the ceremony was over that Monday.
I pull off my robe. Put my diploma down.
Miller wow. So you went and serious
about what I was doing very is, yeah.
So you said you took your room I,
I couldn't, we couldn't hear you.
You took off your college.
Yes, got out of the great
immigration service we had.
You know, we had our graduation service.
Yes, I had a call saying from the Nissan
that she had gone to jail that day in prison.
Movement yes. I took off my robe
handed to my brother I believe and.
Gave him my department and
I want to tell you went wow,
that's that's a lot. As that again,
the the individual that was next to
you in that in that was that to your
niece that was in the footage as well.
Same individual,
let's say when I'm talking, yeah, yeah, wow.
Well, and that's that's amazing.
I know you've been working with the,
you know, various.
You know initiatives there and
in Clay County to preserve and
promote African American history
there and from my understanding,
the Middleburgh Colored School,
which is the one I think
you were talking about.
Correct?
Yeah,
there's I've seen photos of you
and you know a lot less previously
seated there legally and I just
think that that work I want
to commend you on that too.
OK, because again,
you,
you're it's just the drive you know
to to get these important stories
you know out out to you know the
public to a greater and larger public
and and that's we have a shared
goal with that with that mission.
So I just wanted to thank you again.
I I just want as a kind of a last question.
You know,
I think you and I have talked about
some of the challenges that have,
you know,
continued even in in some
of the schools today.
And of course,
obviously this past year you know
they've been all kinds of hardships
involving race relations and and
just trying to just want to get
your reflections at this point,
especially knowing what would you have done?
Uhm,
but but just some of your thoughts
now on what you're seeing and
experiencing if you will.
Well, there's still room for a lot of growth.
And understanding.
I think understanding the situation.
Is very important.
No one what went on in the past
will help people to understand
what we're going through today,
because so much of today.
Has been done in the past.
There's the saying about that,
so if we didn't learn from the past.
Then it's gonna be even harder.
Not the future.
Only thing I can say is let's try to
spend some time trying to understand.
And do the best that we can.
And don't look for the. Children.
And put that the part that concerns me most.
Nowadays they are.
Looking at the little children.
But not giving them credit for
having a mind that they can think to.
And they see things happening.
And they learn from these things.
But we have to be very,
very careful and still work without children.
And the keyword is.
Say some keywords.
Love, concern and understanding.
Because we first have to teach them
to love and respect themselves,
and then they can have love
and respect for others.
Yes, it's probably even more important.
After a while.
'cause there's certain things that's
going on right now today. Yep.
The elderly people, but not. Careful.
We want to lose another generation.
You just have to work hard
and understanding and love,
love and care and understanding.
Yeah. No, those are invaluable
words that incite, and you know,
that's what my colleagues had also wanted.
If you know to know if you if you,
you know if you had a chance and and and
hopefully we will be able to do that.
But if you know if you had,
you know, a last,
say C one statement 22A Group of children.
If they were seated around you
again knowing how you were active
is and driven in your youth.
If you had a group of children.
There is, there may be one thing.
I mean, you've touched on it,
but is there any one thing you would say
or anything he would share with with a
group of kids that are less than DU?
I would probably share with
them what I shared with a group
of kids I had back in 2000,
which has been one of my better years
for working with the youth around here.
Do the right thing the first
time and every time.
Because you are responsible.
But every one of your actions and
your reactions will be recorded
for your first action.
So do the right thing. Deadpool.
Expect yourself.
Space.
Wow, well thank you so much for that
and and again, thank you for your time.
I don't know if there's anything
else I would spend all day and the
next day and talking about history.
I love this well and will be back.
I mean, we're going to work again.
I'm looking forward to opportunities and
I've already talked to some of my colleagues.
I just want to let you know that and
and we'll figure out, you know some ways
that we can continue to collaborate.
I've also spoken with Lynn whom
I want to thank them.
Caps thank you so much and and
the Fleming Island.
Library for enabling us to, you know,
to to conduct this interview you know.
And maybe down the line when they
get their facility up and running,
we can, you know,
'cause there's so much more that
we can talk about and maybe work
with the teachers as I mentioned.
But I also want to thank Maureen.
Thank you so much as well.
Maureen Young, for.
I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
Yes, uh, for yes,
for all your administrative and logistical,
you know,
work here again and in assisting
us and enabling this to take place.
So what we'll do is we'll get
this prepared and will keep you
posted on how will be utilized.
But there are several ways again
will be utilizing it for research.
Again could be with.
Uhm,
you know social media video
productions that we may use,
but we'll keep you posted.
Speaking of posts, I wanted to check
in with you and if you still had,
you've had a chance,
but we were again so so proud and
happy to be able to honor you.
This month.
Women,
Women's History Month with a
post there on Castile website
and if you haven't seen it,
but that's fine,
we will make sure that you do but.
Did you say you have or you haven't yet?
No, I have not seen it.
Yeah, yeah, we'll make.
We'll make sure later will make sure.
Yeah, I understood lucky ladies
have been all over the place,
but it was an honor to to do that and
I'll tell you you had so many different
likes and loves so I'm letting you know
that people are getting to know you.
And and you work,
you know your courage and you know
your hopes to continue the work you
know to to better the situations
that that you know they're taking
place now and then for the future.
So I'm just letting you know that
that you're still reaching folks
and work is still very significant.
So thank you for all that you have
done and for being a true inspiration.
And thank you for your time today.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you for keeping in touch.
I, I'm just so glad that I'm here.
And so my it,
it has been indeed a real pleasure,
real pleasure and an honor.
So thank you again.