Audio
Oral History Interview with Robert McKnight
Transcript
Abstract: In this oral history interview, Robert McKnight speaks about growing up in Miami, Florida visiting the beaches. He recalls visiting Matheson Hammock, Virginia Key, and Black Point frequently; remarking that Matheson was integrated by the mid 1970’s. He also spoke about attending the integrated Miami Killian High School while they still had the “rebel” mascot, noting the racial tensions present. McKnight also recalled the inherent dangers at Virginia Key Beach where consistent rip currents drowned even experienced swimmers.
AISHA LOMAN: This is Aisha Loman, intern with Biscayne National Park. Master’s student at University of South Florida. I am interviewing Robert McKnight. Robert, um, this proj—this recording is just going to be used for Biscayne National Park, for their internship for their interpretation program as well as my Master’s thesis. Do you consent to that?
ROBERT MCKNIGHT: Yes.
LOMAN: Uh, if you would just start off with some information about yourself, uh, your name, age and where this, uh, interview is taking place.
MCKNIGHT: Uh, my name is Robert McKnight, uh, I’m, uh, 61 years old, uh, with—conducting this interview in, uh, Miami. Uh—
LOMAN: Um, so do you mind stating what, uh, racial group you identify with?
MCKNIGHT: Um, African—African American.
LOMAN: And you can—just face me; don’t worry about that.
MCKNIGHT: Oh, oh. Okay.
LOMAN: Okay, um, so first of all, tell me about your experiences at, uh, Homestead Bayfront Beach.
MCKNIGHT: Um, I grew up in—in my—we moved to, uh, the south in, uh, Richmond Heights back in, uh, I think around 1950, uh, actually—actually it was around 1960. Um, we, uh, stayed pretty much in the—the—the Richmond Heights area. Uh, we, you know, we kind of ventured out of that area, um, and go down south, uh, um. As we got older, uh, especially when I was with—with my parents and I was in school, um, so that was in the area we used to go to, uh, get out of school and go down south. Uh, the actually, the, uh, uh, the beach. And when I was in high school, um, and we used to—we—we would go there just to—just to get away from, uh, uh, the Richmond Heights area. LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know, and—and, uh, it was—that—that was—hold on, let me just go ahead and—[telephone ringing]. [Answered call.]
LOMAN: That’s okay; I understand. I almost forgot to turn mine off too. All right, well, um, you were talking about your experiences.
MCKNIGHT: Oh, uh, okay. Okay, um, yeah, um, when—when—when I was in high school, like I said, that was like in the are that—that—that we used to venture there down south.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Uh, weekends and sometimes during the week to kind of like get away from the Richmond Heights area, you know—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —kind of, um, getting away from the parents.
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: And whatnot. Um, uh, and—and—and it was the difference then that that beach was more, um, uh, let’s use the—the—the like, uh, we didn’t go to [unintelligible] within the Key Beach. The other side of Key Beach was further away and the only time I used to go [inaudible] Key was with—with—with parents.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm MCKNIGHT: And we would find a way to get down to—to Homestead because the beach, I mean, it was all on the—up on the—off the beaten path.
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: You know, you have to go down, uh, the roads, uh, um, the—the—the—the, uh, basically follow the canals down to—out to the—out to the—out to the bay.
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: And because it was—it was—it was isolated.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know. And—and—and—and you go through like the, um, the, uh, fields but the plant fields and then sometimes the summers we used to work at those fields. And then from there, we go to [inaudible]. What we used to do was cut, um, sticks for pole bean.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: It’s, you know, that was like the little side job, little job during the summer that we did and—and—and—and then what you would do—what we would do was go to the beach—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —uh, and like it—guys, I remember the beach. It was basically it was a small hole. It was a hole in the, uh, away from the—the bay.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Uh, and—and [inaudible] the same way. Because of the—the—to get to—to get to deep water, I mean, water above your, uh, to your waist—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —if you had to go into the—the bay, you had to walk out, you know, a couple miles out in there to—to—to get to—especially at low—at low—even at, uh, uh, high tide.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You’d have to walk so far out and then you had the chance of—of stepping on, uh, uh, uh, um, uh, a [inaudible]. Especially what the, um, uh, the little spikes—
LOMAN: Urchins?
MCKNIGHT: Urchins.
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: Sea urchins and stuff. So you had this, um, well basically a swimming pool—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —to—off to the side and that was like the little—the, uh, swimming hole.
LOMAN: Okay. Can you tell me, uh, what’s your earliest memory of the beach?
MCKNIGHT: The earliest memory.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: The earliest memory would be—be like—like really around high school. You know, um, uh, I didn’t really remember going out to that beach as—as—as a child. Um, uh, with the family, we used—we would—we would go to—to the Key Beach.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: Um, and that’s—we used to walk—we used to go past Matheson Hammock but, um, as I was growing up and until, uh, until like the late 60’s, actually in the 70’s—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —that—that—that we started going out to Matheson Hammock. And then—then we started going to—it’s—it’s—it’s—I was in I’d say—actually yeah, junior high. Uh, that we used to venture down south to go to—to go to, uh, we called it back then I think we called it, uh, Black Point.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: Yeah.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm. And what did you, like, what are some of the things that you all did when you all were at the beach?
MCKNIGHT: Uh—
LOMAN: At Homestead?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, played games, you know, and swim and—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —uh, I wouldn’t say drinking beer, we didn’t drink beer that much in high school. Uh, but basically it was like go there to swim and—and—and, uh, um, sit on the beach and you know.
LOMAN: Okay. What kind of games did you all play?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, football, uh, basically.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: When, you know, baseball. The only thing we could do out there was play a little touch football and—and—and—and then have like, um, you know, dance.
LOMAN: Dance?
MCKNIGHT: Yeah, have dances out there.
LOMAN: Oh, they did?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, yeah. But then, you know, I mean, the whole idea was go out there—go out there with—with some—with a young lady and hang out and, you know, enjoy the sun and dance and play some sports and, you know.
LOMAN: So like would you all have was it formal dances or you all just went out there and—
MCKNIGHT: No, it was just—you would just—you would just, you know, somebody would—somebody would bring a radio and, uh, you know, everything was there and it was informal because, uh, basically, we wasn’t even supposed to be there. You know, we were—you know, you couldn’t—you couldn’t really plan a whole lot.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know, because there was some, you know, if you planned it, you know, the person that had the car usually got—had to stay home. You got wind that—somebody got wind that we were trying to—trying to get away from home.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know, so it was like, uh, it was like impromptu. You know, it was, uh, um, um, time—you know, sometimes I used to say I’m going out to work and I had use of the car and you know, uh, I was off and we would go. We would go out there and see who—see who would show up. You know, and it was always, like I say, it was always impromptu, you know, no plans.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: The only time I started planning to go out there was when I got a little older. Actually when I came back from—from school, I was, uh, I go there just because, uh, coming down to Miami, uh, in—in—in Miami area there’s a lot of, um, lot more, uh, things going on that—that you get into—into trouble. You know, there’s a lot more trouble to get into down in Miami. So to keep from getting into trouble, you go down, uh, on the south end, you know, in the—I called it in—in—in the country. You know.
LOMAN: All right. Um, do you know the, um, like when you started going to the beach, like what dates, like what years that was?
MCKNIGHT: Oh, that would’ve been like ’68, ’70. Uh, the ‘70’s, uh, um, uh, up until ’76 I started—I was, um, uh, came back from school. So ’76 there’s times up until about ‘80’s I used to go, you know—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —go there. Matter of fact, when I worked for the county, I—I got a job and worked for the county and I used to go, uh, um, just part—sometimes it’s part of the job—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —they’ll—they’ll—they’ll send you. Reason for me to go down there to get supplies or get, uh, materials to get with a, uh, a county park.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: In the—in the late ‘70’s and ‘80’s. I think it still is now.
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: Uh—
LOMAN: When’s the last time you’ve been to the beach?
MCKNIGHT: That beach? The last time I would say would—would’ve been in the—in the ‘80’s.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm.
MCKNIGHT: Yeah, when I left Dade County. I left, uh, I quit Dade County and I left to—I left—I went from, um, Miami to Orlando and when I came back here, uh, you know, in my 40—in my 50’s—40’s/50’s I wasn’t into going to the beach that much.
LOMAN: Okay. You said you went to Virginia Key and [inaudible].
MCKNIGHT: Yeah.
LOMAN: Uh, what were those beaches like? Like compared to Homestead?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, Mathes—Matheson Hammock was similar to—to—to—to, um, uh, Black Point.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Um, uh, it was more—there was more people at—at Matheson Hammock because it was a mixed beach. Yeah, after—after the, uh, ‘70’s—after—yeah, actually around the ‘70’s—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —um, Virginia Key was always a black beach.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: And you know, we’d go to Virginia Key because, uh, um, most people can—from our community, the black communities went to Virginia Key.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: You know, there’s a lot of parties and things at Virginia Key. There’s always like the things between the—baseball games between the community, Liberty City and—and—and South Dade. You know, and you got a chance of meeting more—more—different people from different parts of Miami and down—down south. You go down south, the only people that—really that—that—the ones that—most of the people that went—that—that went to that beach was—were from—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: —uh, down in the south—south end. You know, so, you know, it was like you can go there but you won’t meet any people from, uh, the north end.
LOMAN: So, like how were the people down there and then how were the people at Virginia Key? Like were they like were they different or anything like that?
MCKNIGHT: Well you know, back then it was like the—the only difference it was being called the country. The people just called it, you know, you were like, you know, that’s the cou—that’s—that’s—that’s country and, you know, they’re slow and they’re backwards and you know, I mean, it’s—it’s—it’s—it’s people think—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —you know. And, uh, and—and, uh, um, it was a lot less, uh, when you go—when you go to those beaches, go to that beach, it was a lot less hassle. You didn’t have the—you didn’t have—you didn’t have the hassle between the—you come from—from— from—from—from—from, uh, uh, Liberty City or Coconut Grove, you know, it didn’t, you know, there wasn’t no—no—no—no—especially the—the—the—the blacks. You know, you—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: No separation between where came from. It was like just, you know, because it was all from Homestead.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Homestead, you know, and there wasn’t [inaudible] that much that kind of, um, um, separation.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know. Um, because it was—that was the—the little community, uh, uh, uh, beach.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm. Okay. Did—did you and your friends have any issues going to that beach with the, uh—
MCKNIGHT: No.
LOMAN: —from the community?
MCKNIGHT: No. No. No. No.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: No. No.
LOMAN: So they were kind of welcoming—
MCKNIGHT: It was all—yeah. It was always welcome in there, uh, uh, you know, like I say, it wasn’t never—it was—I never felt, uh, you know, that it was a like, I’m from Richmond Heights.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know, I got to hang with you up in Richmond Heights.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: That was—it was real—kind of open beach.
LOMAN: And were there places you could not go on the beach?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, on the beach, uh—
LOMAN: Yeah, Homestead.
MCKNIGHT: I didn’t—I didn’t recognize because the only—the only place we used to go was to the—to the—the swimming area.
LOMAN: Okay. MCKNIGHT: You know, we never went—I know they had like a—the boat areas and stuff like that. We never had boats, so we, you know, it’s like, you don’t think about going over there because you don’t have a boat.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: You know, you—you [inaudible] go and swim. You know, we didn’t want to go walking in the—in the, uh, in—into the—the water, the bay because the one time—one time when you step on a—a urchin or a shell or something and you cut your foot—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: —you know, the whole day is blown. So—
LOMAN: That’s true.
MCKNIGHT: —we just pull up, go in there and swim and it seemed to me like, I mean, it always like it was always like the black people.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Blacks in the—in the swimming hole.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: We never—I never paid attention to what—what anybody else was doing and, um, and like I say, the boats, the—the—the little boat dock, the only time I—the only time I really paid attention to any of the things happening out there was when I was, uh, I was, uh, working with the county.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: I was park service, so I used to have to go there to, you know, to—to check and see if the—the docks, the—the—if they needed repairs or something.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: To document what would be done and other than that—
LOMAN: Okay. So you never saw anybody of any other races, you just—
MCKNIGHT: Uh, I didn’t pay attention.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: Yeah, I mean, uh, uh, uh, it didn’t, you know, the ti—uh, times I came there, um, especially in—in—in my younger years was more—how to say, you—you, um, [unintelligible].
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: You know, and I never got a—I never got—I never got hassled about, um, uh, being there. I went to the—right there and swam and played on the beach and played on the—down in the sandy area there. Uh, um, and they—they, you know, this was—this was like ’67, well ’68, ’69, ’70.
LOMAN: Mm-hm
MCKNIGHT: So—so—so—so there was little bit of integration—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —you know and—and—and—and—and during that time, I found that it, uh, that—that—that—that—that—that unless you like kind of look like a problem, there wasn’t a problem.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know, I mean, it’s that—that—that same way and—and—and—and high school and the high school that I went to was integrated.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Had just integrated and I was like the third class.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: And, um, we had a riot there because, uh, somebody was walking through the—the parking lot and mean—and meanwhile, a white guy was driving his car and doing donuts in the parking lot. And the—the brother decided to walk in front of the car. So you see that the, you know, you look at—he was looking to start an issue.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: And the guy stopped his car and told him to get out of the way and then there was a confrontation.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: And, uh, the two, you know, two groups and everything turned into a free-for-all and, you know, we—and we had a riot. They threatened to bring the KKK down and we threatened to bring them, you know, we said bring them on and we seen people rioting—coming down to Homestead and calling themselves KKK. You know, it’s like, I know you. You know. Oh, but it was like that—that was the way it was. If you—if you went out and looked for a problem, you will find a problem. If you just kind of, um, did your thing and you know, uh, uh, every—you know, it’s going to be like the—the—that, um, bad apple in your group—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —that’s going to—that—that—that’s not going to like the way somebody’s, uh, uh, walking that day. You know. Uh, and then there’s going to be the others that, you know, just take it. It’s like, you’re here, I’m over here. You’re not doing anything with me, so I’m not, you know, I don’t have no problem with you.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: And—and—and—and that was—that was the way, you know, during my time there.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm. What high school did you go to?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, Miami-Killian.
LOMAN: Miami—
MCKNIGHT: Miami-Killian.
LOMAN: Killian.
MCKNIGHT: Yeah. Like, uh, the—the—the South Dade—South Dade back them was called Rebels.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: Um, so you know, so you know, they used to wear the grey and blue. Grey—grey, yeah, the Jackson area, red, grey and blue with a Confederate flag on their—on their helmet. It was, you know, and they were integrated. And two years into the integration—no three years, we—three years, that’s ’70. Like four years into the integration, they had to change their name because they’re saying—it was like come on, man, what’s—you know, somebody, uh, go hey, you know, lets—let’s, uh, uh, took—took that, um, name. Well they felt about—you know, every time we was playing, you know, we would—you know, you was [inaudible]. And that was, uh, that was the—that time. The way the youngsters dealt with it. You either—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: —you either—either—either we’re going to make some changes or we, you know, if you—if you’re all right with me the way—what I’m doing, you’re, you know—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —I’m all right with you. But if there’s things—that—that—that—that you want to hold over me or—or—or—or—or I need to—I want to hold over you, then we going—we’re either going to have to change it or come down and look at it the same way. LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know, um. So that’s—
LOMAN: Okay. Well you, um, have you ever like gone into Homestead, the city itself?
MCKNIGHT: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, the—back then, actually, back in the—actually, you think about it, back in the ‘70’s, in the—in—in—in—when I was in high school, I didn’t really go into—into Homestead.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: I went into Florida City. Um, because Homestead just wasn’t, you know, wasn’t the place, I don’t—I don’t know if I’d call it comfortable, I just, you know how you—it’s just like—it’s not a place I want to be. The people, I don’t know nobody there.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: I know people that are in—in Florida City. So we avoided Homestead.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: You know. Now—now later on, when, like I say, I came back from college, uh, Homestead was different place. It was more Mexicans there than—than there were rednecks.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: So it was like, you go there, you know—
LOMAN: So it would be a different feel?
MCKNIGHT: Different—different—different feel, yeah.
LOMAN: Okay. MCKNIGHT: But I know—know I never went into Homestead as—even if I—I—I never [inaudible]. Matter of fact, I don’t got—you know, like—like [inaudible] you know, when we lived in Miami, there’s places we never went to. I—this—this part of—this part of town I’m living in right now, uh, we never came here.
LOMAN: Why?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, we would come as far as 7th Avenue, uh, um, and—and, uh, I mean, it’s like yeah, after 7th Avenue, you didn’t come on the—you didn’t come on the other side of 7th Avenue.
LOMAN: Why not?
MCKNIGHT: Huh [what]?
LOMAN: Why—
MCKNIGHT: You just didn’t. It just wasn’t—it wasn’t—you know, our people wasn’t over on this side.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: So—so we stayed on the other side of—used to have like the, uh, orange blossoms already.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Where now 7th Avenue.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: When they did the expressway, um, um, we stayed on the west side of the expressway. You know as far as when it got—when the expressway got down into—into, uh, over town, now you know, you on both sides of it. But this area here, uh, uh, yeah, that—only knew one—one kid that went to school during the ‘70’s at—at—at black, uh, at, um, at Mission [inaudible]. And he was like—that was like rare—rare thing but, uh, uh, somebody to go—somebody black can go to school there. Anderson—Anderson was, uh, a white school. Uh, Northwestern was all black. Um, same, you know, when you go down south and towards Homestead, it was [inaudible] High School. Uh, and that was it. The rest of the schools down that way, Palmetto, uh, um, South Dade were all—all white schools. You know, and—and—and South Dade really didn’t—didn’t—didn’t integrate until, um, I know Killian—Killian—Killian, when it opened up, it was integrated, ’60—in “66. Um, Palmetto integrated like ’60—60, uh, I think 4, no, my brother went there. Um, but South Dade, South Dade stayed—stayed, uh, relatively unintegrated until like ’68. You know, and then—then there was—there was still not that much—not that many, um, blacks going to school there.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Uh, uh, uh, and then they held onto that, uh, held onto that South Dade Rebels thing for a while and, uh, after—had the riot, a bunch of riot—riot in Killian, they had riots there, then they changed it and then—then they decided to change the name of the school. You know and then they did—wasn’t, uh, it wasn’t, um, like any kind of real violent, violent, uh, riots down there but, uh, they were just like, you know, you know, people just, you know, didn’t get along.
LOMAN: Yeah. MCKNIGHT: You know, they made it known that there was certain things, you know, they didn’t like, you didn’t like, they didn’t like.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: And then they started out with changing the name of the school, uh, I can’t think of what the name is, something, something that they just, uh, pirates or something, you know. But as far as on the beach, that—that little beach, um, you know, you didn’t—you just didn’t—you didn’t really pay attention that there was some—there was an area with— with—with—with—with where the whites went. But from what I always remember, they always had all the—the boats though. It was like, you know, we had—we had the [inaudible], the—the—the—the water area.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm.
MCKNIGHT: You know. And plus because—because down there, there’s—there’s, uh, um, there’s, uh, the island, um, Elliott Key, you know, and they would take the boats and go out to—to the beach on Elliott Key. We couldn’t go—we didn’t have boats, so we didn’t—we didn’t take a boat anywhere, we just, you know, uh, scram. In that little—in that little, uh, tidal—tidal basin. And that’s all it is. They—they dug down a little—the water level and the—the sea water, the same water that’s in the—in the bay when high tide come—comes in.
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: You know, the water in there rises and when—when it goes out, it goes down. It’s deep enough that, you know, you’d always—you’d always be, um, at—at—at—at neck level.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Um, either—especially at low tide, you know, at high tide and then you, you know, you know, you be a little bit more careful about what, uh, who’s swimming in there and you know, because it’s—it’s going to be deeper.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm. Can you, um, describe any other things about the beach that you notice like, uh, buildings or, um, little play areas or anything like that? MCKNIGHT: Uh, kind of spots. Kind of spots, you know, they had—it had coconut trees.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Uh, didn’t have, um, uh, I don’t remember them having, uh, any kind of concession stands. I mean, because every time you came there, you had to bring your own. Uh, I know that the beach that—the—the—the—the dock area had like the, uh, uh, buildings, uh, but I remember—I remember it being pretty—pretty much, um, spot and like kind of—kind of—kind of, uh, a beach where you made sure you brought everything you—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —you needed to—to—to enjoy yourself there.
LOMAN: Okay. So there was nobody who works there, anything like that?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, no, there wasn’t until—till—until—until the county really took it over. Uh, there was—there was, um, it was almost a—it was almost a, uh, uh, you’re on your own. You know what I’m saying?
LOMAN: Mm-hmm.
MCKNIGHT: They had—they had lifeguards.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: They had lifeguards. They had lifeguards. Uh, but then they still—it was almost a, you know, uh, um, because they was—they would—they would—they would, um, yeah, the only—the only thing I remember, you know, there was lifeguards.
LOMAN: Okay. Uh, when did the county take it over; do you know?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, I really—I started with the county in ’76. Um, and I know I only moved to the south in the county until—until ‘80’s.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: And then ’80—‘83/’84, I was assigned some of the—to—to—to some of the, uh, the park areas.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: So—so I’m pretty sure, I would say county took it over that they—they had the—the—the, uh, ’78 decade of progress. They had—they had—because they—they redid—they redid, um, the docks—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —uh, and I think they dredged, uh, the canals and the ro—and—and fixed the roadway because there was no roadway out there. There was a—there was a just dirt road. And they put in a paved road. So I think there’s like, I would say, you know, roughly without, I mean, I’m—I’m thinking probably like around the—the last ‘70’s.
LOMAN: Okay. Mm-hmm . Um, is there, um, what do you think about this project that—what are your thoughts on it?
MCKNIGHT: Um, I think it’s—I think it’s—it’s—it’s—it’s needed. Uh, so it—that—that—that we kind of like tell the history of, uh, uh, how we used the resources, how we—how the resources, uh, served everybody.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Um, and then it’s also there’s—it—if you shed some light onto—on—on how people either shared or didn’t share—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —uh, land and how they made—they restricted other people’s use to the land or how they—or how they, you know, either shared it and—and—and it was—it will shed some light on—on how—how we either have moved ahead as a people—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —as pe—not only as a people but—but as a—humans, as a race.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know, um, and because we had this thing—we had this thing with different beaches, uh, you had the right—right—in—in—in—right on Key Biscayne, you know, uh, you had three different—three different groups of beaches. You know, and one was dedicated to one group of people, one race. You know, uh, then you had to—you had to go past all the other beaches to get—
LOMAN: Really?
MCKNIGHT: —to—to—yeah.
LOMAN: So it was like a white, black?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, yeah, you didn’t go to Hobey Beach, uh, right along the Key. You could come acro—you had—you—you allowed to come across the bridge—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: And then keep driving and go to that other gate, then go to Key Biscayne, I mean, uh, uh, go to Virginia Key. I didn’t go—we didn’t go—we didn’t go to—to—to—to—to, uh, Crandon Park. Uh, I don’t really know—going to Crandon Park as a child.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm MCKNIGHT: I always went, you know, as a child, we always went to Virginia Key. And then we used to cross at, uh, what do they call it, the [inaudible].
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: And see the, you know, the white people on—on—on the other side with the boats and the, you know—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —the—everything, you know. On this side, you had the black people that had, you know, everybody that had, uh, they had, you know, a lot of us had our own boats, doing the same thing but it was all on this side. You know, it was like—there was an unmentioned dividing line right there in, uh—
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: You know.
LOMAN: What beach was the white beach called?
MCKNIGHT: Huh [what]?
LOMAN: What was the white beach called?
MCKNIGHT: They called it, uh, uh, on the other side is [inaudible].
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: And then they [inaudible] all the way around to Crandon Park. And like I said, we didn’t go to—I didn’t go to—never go—never go—go to like Crandon Park until like the—the late, uh, actually, until I came back from school.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Would go there in the summer, uh, um, yeah, about—about ’72/’73. LOMAN: Was that a black beach or a—just—
MCKNIGHT: Uh, it wasn’t a black beach. It wasn’t dedicated, you know what I mean? It was—we used it—we—we had no problems going to—well let’s call it this way, nobody chose that was the beach. Okay. My parents, that was the only beach they took us to.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Okay. Now you know how you say, um, they know something that we didn’t know?
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: That’s why sometimes we, you know, we would venture and look and wonder like, what the hell is going on over there? Now they knew that there was unspoken or that word from their generation, knew that this was the beach for us.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm.
MCKNIGHT: And we go there.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm.
MCKNIGHT: You know, um, our generation was—it was keep looking across there and—and then you eventually like went over there and then they tell you you got to get out and then you’re like no, man. You know. It’s just like—just like the—just like on the—the older bus, I mean, you sure you got to—you can’t—you got to sit in the seat and sit in the seat and sit in the seat and sit in the seat.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: And it’s going to take one person that says, question why.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know and—and—and—and—and—and—and—and—and then it—and then it’s like a—it’s like a snowball after that because, you know, everybody say well [inaudible]. Yeah, we go over to that beach there, why, you know, we come—go—go—come—go over there to find out, wow, this is pretty nice beach. You know. It’s got another view of the ocean, uh, um, we go across—we got like this—this--this beach and it’s got like this channel that drops down I think like 60 feet with the water running through it at—at 30 miles an hour. And if you—and if you—and if you get caught up in it, you’re dead. And so you don’t go out and swim. LOMAN: Oh, is that Virginia Key? MCKNIGHT: Yeah. You know, the lifeguard tell you, don’t go past the buoy. Don’t go past the buoy because if you—if you weren’t strong enough or a—a weak swimmer, no, matter of fact, no, you couldn’t—you could be a strong swimmer, the—the—the—the—the— the—the—the current take you away. People drown like crazy because they in trouble and they can’t, you know, like—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: —can get to you.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: They can try to get to you but you know, when you’re dealing with like—like—like—like that strong of a current, um, they taking their life at risk to go after you. You know.
LOMAN: You—so you saw people drown like at— MCKNIGHT: I mean, I’ve been there when people drown. I haven’t, you know, I—I—I wouldn’t say that I saw them, you know what I mean, you know, they gather—gather around somebody and—and they put a cloth over their head.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know. I mean, uh, I didn’t see, uh, you know, you see the thing when—when the ambulance—ambulance is coming out there. Uh, you know, you know that something—something happened to somebody. They bit the bullet.
LOMAN: Wow.
MCKNIGHT: And they had, I mean, there was, you know, that was one of the—one of the reasons the beach was end up—end up closed for a while, because it was, you know, uh, with that, such a treacherous, um—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: —current—current through there. You know, there a lot, you know, there—there—there—there—there—there—there—there—there—the risk of having a lot of people killed or die—or dying was easier to just say close the beach and go swimming—because right now they got no swimming.
LOMAN: Oh, really?
MCKNIGHT: You can go to the beach but they tell you—it’s posted, swim at your own risk.
LOMAN: Oh, okay.
MCKNIGHT: You know. I mean, after—if you don’t—you don’t—don’t swim. You know, uh, uh, and—and not to say that the other side, uh, look across and basically, the whites—whites on the other side, they had the—it was the same problem but—
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: So, they—but the only—the only—they—they had the luxury of going around to the front to Crandon Park. Um, Virginia Beach, even though it’s on it’s own little island there, uh, you know, a certain point that that was not the beach that we went to.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: So we didn’t go past, uh, there’s a curve that comes around to keep the—to—to, uh, Miami Beach—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —that was, uh, that was a—a separate beach.
LOMAN: Oh, okay.
MCKNIGHT: Yeah. And—and go down the—you can go down the same road and go to this beach. But if you took a walk around—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —to another beach, to—to the one facing the Miami Beach. This was when there wasn’t no signs saying, you know, I don’t remember seeing the sign that said it but—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —every time well you should know that people would tell you that—that—that—not—you can’t go past—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: —past this point.
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: You know. And everything facing, uh, that would be, uh, east—southeast on—on, uh, um, Virginia Key.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know, it was—was black and then—the facing Miami Beach, uh, there was, uh, basically the ‘70’s and ‘80’s, uh, and at one time, the beach would be a nude beach. Uh, you know, uh, but that was, uh, the unspoken, you know, uh, up until a point, an unspoken word.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: You know, uh, rule.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and do you ever remember seeing any signs, anything like that?
MCKNIGHT: No, I ain’t, no. I mean, I—I—you know, the—the—the—the—the generation that I came up in, the si—we used to hear signs, you know.
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: I remember hearing the signs. I never—I never saw the signs.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm.
MCKNIGHT: You know, uh, my—that, you know, the—I’d say that people 10 years older than me probably saw the signs.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm MCKNIGHT: Me, my—my generation, we—we just—[inaudible] of—of—of that, you know.
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: Of that—that, um, [inaudible] you know.
LOMAN: Um, is there anything else you would like to say about Homestead Beach or anything that you think is interesting?
MCKNIGHT: I mean, one thing—one thing that always stood out to me was—was, uh, on the back side of the agricultural—the—the—the agricultural area there that—that—that was—use the word the fields and, uh, uh, go, if I remember, called it—we used to call it cutting sticks. We used to cut the—the—the, uh, poles for the pole—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: So then we [inaudible] we—we—we would be able to go cool off at the—at the beach after work.
LOMAN: Oh, the—the place where you cut [inaudible] is right there by the beach?
MCKNIGHT: The—it was—yeah, because it—the—all of the fields, the fields, those fiel—or the plants fields on the—the—what do you call that area, that—that— that—that—that—that’s the canal where the racetrack is and—
LOMAN: Oh, yeah. I know the area. I don’t know the name though.
MCKNIGHT: Yeah. Yeah, all of that back then was—was—was real. Go down—and then you go down the road to Homestead Airforce Base and all of that around Homestead Base—Airforce Base but then you—in the middle of all of that—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: But then you can, you know, the—when you—when you—when—when we used to go out in the mornings and the—the—the—the thought was that, you know, let’s cut this stuff, let’s cut it because the deal we had was, the faster you can get the—the amount—the quota, then you can go, uh, to the beach
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: And 17, back 16/17, it was like, yeah. You know. And then the older people would go like this, slow down. We’re like, slow down? You know, you’re trying to get out of here and get to the beach. No, you can make more money if you go faster. No, but I get [inaudible]. I didn’t—you know, I—didn’t rationalize because I was making, you know, just making—I was making enough for me.
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: You know. Uh, uh, that’s about my—my recollection back in those times. I mean, uh, uh, you know, the—the—there’s the generations, like I say, there was the generations that saw the heavy, uh, Jim Crow—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: —and then there was the gen—generation that when this thing started making—people started making sense about the way things was and I think that—that—that was like the generation that I came up in where—where—where you, uh, the beneficiaries of my parents, um, like to change, you know, because I remember going—going to Killian’s and going in the—going in the gym, you know, and you had the—the white guys on this side and the black guys on this side. And you say well, you know, coach coming in, black coach coming in—I was going to play—I was going to play a [inaudible] and you all—you all sitting over there—you all sitting over there. And then there’s a Philippino in the middle of it sitting there trying to catch flies and everybody’s looking at him like, what you doing? And basically, by—by doing something, um, ridiculous, you know, everybody kind of like—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: —relaxed and pulled together. You know, and that was—that was—that was—that was the generation. I mean, it was, you know, you do maybe sometime you took, uh, something stupid to pull—
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: And the other way—you know, you’re didn’t really put out those—pay attention to all those ridiculous that were there—
LOMAN: Mm-hmm
MCKNIGHT: —you know, in the—were changing, so you had to go with the flow, you know?
LOMAN: Yeah. Um, is there anybody else you think I should talk to about this project, anybody with some information?
MCKNIGHT: Um, I can ask my brother but he don’t like to—he doesn’t like to do this, do interviews, uh, uh, that kind of stuff. Uh, uh, right off hand, uh, right off hand, I don’t have anybody, uh. I could, like I say, I could talk to some people and see if they would be—would be willing to—to. And I think—and—and I think sometimes some of it—some of the—the—the—the—the people that, um, uh, that I know that live right down the—that—that have lived in—in—in there for a long time. I got a few guys, a few friends, uh, uh, that I can ask and see if they would be able to—
LOMAN: Okay.
MCKNIGHT: —if I can find ones that—that are willing to talk. Uh, but I got—it got one in mind. I just have to find out if he’s, uh, he’s willing to. There’s another guy, David White is the name. Um, he’s from my [inaudible]. Who else, you know.
LOMAN: Yeah. And anybody, I would, you know, uh, very much appreciate it, um, you know, I just thank you for, you know, doing this interview here because we don’t have a lot of information on this right now.
MCKNIGHT: Yeah.
LOMAN: So you’ve given me a lot of information. So—
MCKNIGHT: That’s what I—that’s what I would do is, uh, start talking to a few, uh, you know, I got a person to talk to and a few other people and that—that are from—from my—in my group. And then there are—can find some of the—you know, well and you know, I mean, like my—my brother just got a pass the last month. So those, you know, those older—that older generation is like going—not the—not the—not, you know, uh, uh, but now there’s a different generation. You know, so the—so the—people are, uh, uh, some of the—there’s a lot of the good information and, uh, dying out. Uh, uh, the only thing I can do is try to talk to some people to—to see who would know who could do it, the interviews or the research. And—and—and actually you need to record basically the stories.
LOMAN: Yeah.
MCKNIGHT: You know.
LOMAN: Make sure they’re not lost.
MCKNIGHT: Yea.
LOMAN: All right. Well that’s, uh, all the questions I have for you. Is there anything else you would like to say?
MCKNIGHT: Uh, I think with the—[audio ends]
Description
In this oral history interview, Robert McKnight speaks about growing up in Miami, Florida visiting the beaches. He recalls visiting Matheson Hammock, Virginia Key, and Black Point frequently; remarking that Matheson was integrated by the mid 1970’s. McKnight also recalled the inherent dangers at Virginia Key Beach where consistent rip currents drowned swimmers. Interviewed by Aisha Loman on February 25, 2019.
Credit
Biscayne National Park
Date Created
02/25/2019
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