Oral History Interview with William Boarders Jr.

William Boarders Jr. is interviewed as part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historical Park Oral History Project.

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ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH William Boarders Jr.
JULY 24, 2001
INTERVIEWED BY OLOYE ADEYEMON
The transcript below corresponds to the media embedded on this page

BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

EDITORIAL NOTICE

The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. Due to the sensitive nature of the interview, it may contain inflammatory language that some find offensive. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition.

ABSTRACT

William Boarders Jr. was born in Sumner, Georgia, in 1939. His parents, William and Alberta Boarder, had three children, two girls and William. Boarder attended Maryland State College, now called University of Maryland, Eastern Shore, before attending Howard University School of Law. Boarders was appointed to a committee responsible for selecting judges for the District of Columbia by President Jimmy Carter, and later served as the president of the National Bar Association. Boarders was jailed for a one-man conspiracy to bribe Alcee Hastings, who was a federal judge at the time, before receiving a pardon from President Bill Clinton January 20, 2001. Boarders was a close friend of Spottswood Bolling, the plaintiff in the Bolling v. Sharpe case. Boarders recounts his time with Bolling, his experiences growing up in a segregated school system, and meeting several attorneys involved in the Brown v. Board case during his time at Howard University.

People mentioned: William Boarders Sr., Alberta Boarders, Spottswood Bolling, George E.C. Hayes, Julian R. Dugas, James Nabrit Jr., Spottswood Robinson III, Thurgood Marshall, Murial Alexander, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Alcee Hastings, Earl Hilliard, Sarah Bolling, Othelus Savoy, Reginald “Kiya” Ballot, Gardner Bishop Jr., Eglin Baylor,

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Transcript

[Pause 00:00 - 00:09]

Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board oral history collection. Washington, DC, school segregation desegregation interviews. Interviewee, Mr. William Boarder, Jr.—William Boarders, Jr. Interviewee—interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon from the National Park Service. Interview conducted on Capitol Hill on July 24, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown versus Board oral history research project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic Site oral history project. Mr. Boarders, what is your full name for me?

William B. Jr: William Arthur Boarders, Jr.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthday?

William B. Jr: 3/9/39.

Oloye Adeyemon: And which place?

William B. Jr: Summer, Georgia.

Oloye Adeyemon: Who were your parents?

William B. Jr: Alberta Boarders and William Arthur Boarders, Sr.

Oloye Adeyemon: And your mother's maiden name?

William B. Jr: Uh, her m-maiden name is Best 01:15.

Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, are they from—also from Summer, some town—

William B. Jr: Summer, Georgia.

Oloye Adeyemon: Summer.

William B. Jr: My mother was from Metter, Georgia.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: My father was from North Carolina.

Oloye Adeyemon: And they—what-what was their occupation?

William B. Jr: Uh, my father worked for Pepco as a construction person. My mother was what they then called a ch-child [unintelligible 01:38]. She, uh, worked in, first, people's home, and then she later worked as, um, worked for Pullman Railroad cleaning the cars.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And then at a later time, she worked at the Pentagon cleanin' rooms in the Pentagon.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What year did you move to Washington, DC?

William B. Jr: Uh, my mother came in the '30s. My father came about the same time. I-I really don't—

Oloye Adeyemon: They met here?

William B. Jr: Yeah, they met here.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, uh, uh, now what were your brothers and sisters' names?

William B. Jr: I have no brothers. I have no sisters.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. When you arrived in—how old were you when—

William B. Jr: Well my mother and father were living here, but she went back home to give birth to me because her mother had a lot experience in having children because she had 18 children, so she knew more about it than my mother did.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay. And so at what age did you come to live in Washington, DC?

William B. Jr: Well almost at birth. She just went down, uh, to give birth to me and then came right back.

Oloye Adeyemon: Then she came right back.

William B. Jr: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what area of the city did you live in at that time?

William B. Jr: Uh, I've always lived in the Northeast area. E—my mother and father, at a very early age, before they bought a house, they lived in the Southeast and Southwest area, but as a little kid, I-I grew up in Northeast, Wash—far Northeast, Washington.

Oloye Adeyemon: What street?

William B. Jr: Uh, Foote. F-O-O-T-E.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And was that where the Black communities was concentrated in Northeast and far Northeast?

William B. Jr: Well it was interestin'. During tha-that time, the city was segregated. Uh, my mother and father never went to college. They never finished high school, but the city was so segregated that living right next door to us was a professor at Howard University 'cause he could not buy—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - a home any other place. Blacks live where they could live.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right. But, like, what I'm asking you is, in the residential patterns of the Northeast section—

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - of the city, was it the far Northeast where most of the Blacks in that section of the city?

William B. Jr: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now would that-would that-have bordered, um, Maryland?

William B. Jr: Yeah. I lived two blocks from Maryland.

Oloye Adeyemon: What part of Maryland?

William B. Jr: Uh, Seat Pleasant, Chapel Oaks and all of that area.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you know historically why it happened that Blacks were in that strip of, uh, Northeast at the time?

William B. Jr: Well if you know anything about this country, we were put where they wanted to put us. And, uh, at one time, if you look at the history, we as a race were, most of us were in Georgetown—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - but they moved us out of Georgetown and made it a, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Exclusive—

William B. Jr: - exclusive area.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that-was that section of Maryland that you bordered a area that had Blacks?

William B. Jr: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So that might've had something to do with the [unintelligible 04:36]?

William B. Jr: I can't speak to why it was done, but it was the area where they let us buy homes.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Uh, did your family [unintelligible 04:43]?

William B. Jr: Yes. I have been very fortunate in my life, which is highly unusual. I've never lived in an apartment.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So as a child growing up, uh, you attended schools here in the Northeast.

William B. Jr: Yes, I did.

Oloye Adeyemon: What elementary school?

William B. Jr: I went to Burrville Elementary School, transferred to Maury Elementary School. Then I went to Kelly Miller Junior High and then Spingarn High School.

Oloye Adeyemon: When you graduated from there, uh, what did you do?

William B. Jr: I left Spingarn, I worked for a year, and then I went to what it was then called Maryland State College. It's now called University of Maryland, Eastern Shore.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where is that?

William B. Jr: That's in Princess Anne borough. A hundred and thirty-four miles from Washington on the eastern shore.

Oloye Adeyemon: And, um, after, uh, going there, what did you do?

William B. Jr: Uh, when I graduated from Maryland State College, I went to Howard University School of Law.

Oloye Adeyemon: You graduated from there what year?

William B. Jr: I graduated from School—uh, Howard University School of Law in 1965.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So that would have been approximately 10 years after the Supreme Court decision.

William B. Jr: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Were there a-attorneys that had been involved in that litigation that you knew at Howard?

William B. Jr: Uh, yes. Just about the whole faculty because what would happen wa-was that when cases were to be [unintelligible 06:03] for Supreme Court dealin' with desegregation all over the country, they would come to Howard University and have mock trials. And some of the, uh, professors up there had helped write the briefs a-and helped to shape their argument, and it was like a canvas for the desegregation cases at Howard University School of Law.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I understand that a-attorney Hayes and attorney Dugas were both, uh, they were actually with the firm that pled the case. Uh, didn't both of them have a-a connection to Howard?

William B. Jr: Yes. Both of them graduated from Howard. Both of them, uh, had a great love for Howard, and they, uh, were involved in helping students in wh-whatever way they could. And they also participated in the trial practice course for the second-year students.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did you know either one?

William B. Jr: I knew Julian Dugas very well. I knew Mr. Hayes. Uh, when I got there, Mr. Nabrit had just changed from bein' dean of the law school and gone on the be president of, uh, Howard University. And Spottswood [unintelligible 07:14]—Spottswood Robinson became the dean of the law school, and they all had something to do with it. Spottswood helped write, uh, Spotts—Dean Robinson helped write a lot of the briefs.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Um, I believe that, um, attorney Hayes and, um, and, uh, attorney Nabrit were the, uh, the consults for the Washington, DC, uh, contingent and did, uh, argue that case. And I think, uh, if I remember correctly, uh, attorney Dugas and, uh, and, uh, attorney Robinson were both, uh, also part of their team.

William B. Jr: Yeah, they helped to write the briefs and there were quite a few. And, uh, if you see that picture of-of the case when it was decided, you see Mr. Hayes and Mr. Nabrit—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - among Thurgood Marhsall and other standing on the steps of the Supreme Court.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. When you, uh, came through, um, was-wa-was there opportunities to discuss the Supreme Court case with any of them? Did any of them talk about it with you?

William B. Jr: Um, [unintelligible 08:28] always in an intellectual setting such as Howard University discussed the law of the day, the passed law—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - and it was, uh, a place where they talked about what they had done and-and gave us some of the background, what happened in the case.

Oloye Adeyemon: Can you share with us a little bit of that insight, uh, understanding the [unintelligible 08:49] and the importance of the case?

William B. Jr: Well it's self-explanatory in one sense because this Brown versus Board of Education, Bolling vs. Sharpe enabled Afro-American, who were called Negroes then, to be able to be educated right alongside of Whites and have equal opportunity. They had—it was no longer a situation where Afro-Americans or Negroes, as they were called then, had hand-me-down books, got schools that, uh, had been used by Whites and then was turned over to Blacks and they built a new school for the Whites. And it was a time that turned this country around.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. In addition to the challenge to school segregation, uh, weren't there constitutional issues that were involved in that case?

William B. Jr: Well that's what the case was all about. That's the only—

Oloye Adeyemon: Explain it to us.

William B. Jr: Well there was a document on the Plessy versus Ferguson and other cases that were separate but equal. There's no such thing as separate but equal. Uh, if the Wh—uh, Blacks had been the majority, they probably would have had more than the Whites. So you can't have—you gotta have a level playin' field, and we still don't have a total level playin' field in this country, but it is better than it was then.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was it the case that, uh, the District of Columbia case was the only one that was based in [unintelligible 10:10] as opposed to 14?

William B. Jr: Uh, well you gotta understand, the District of Columbia is not a state. It's a, uh, territory. And these legals minds crafted a case to get all of them in court so that they wouldn't be found out and to go forward and to help our people move forward.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. After, uh, graduating from Howard, what did you do?

William B. Jr: Uh, I taught school, and I-and I began to practice law.

Oloye Adeyemon: Here in the DC system?

William B. Jr: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, what school?

William B. Jr: Uh, I taught in Kelly Miller extended day school program, which is a school that I had gone to—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - that it wa—when I was in junior high school. And, uh, for—and the principal of the extended day school was one of my former teachers.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.

William B. Jr: And the principal of the junior high school was still there. Muriel Alexander 11:04 was a great lady who come from Atlanta, and she believed in young kids, and she did a lot for 'em. Did a lot for me.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.

William B. Jr: And, uh, she was the principal of that school then.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where'd you go from teaching?

William B. Jr: Uh, I taught school in the evening, and I started practicing law in the daytime.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And I did both until I could have a substantial practice.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And then, as you developed, you know, your-your-your law practice, did you, at some point, uh, work with the Carter Administration?

William B. Jr: Well I got involved in politics through someone who had been in Howard, uh, who is now deceased. [Unintelligible 11:49] civil rights movement from the state of Georgia, he had gone to Clark University, which is Clark College, called Benjamin Brown, who was a deputy, uh, director of Carter's campaign. He got me involved. And I became involved from fu-fund raising and other areas and dealing with that. And also, I became-became involved in the National Bar Association, which I later became president of the National Bar Association, and I later became president [unintelligible 12:18].

Oloye Adeyemon: And were you involved in, um, the process of, uh, selecting the judges?

William B. Jr: At-at one point, I was on the committee that selected judges. Um, I—

Oloye Adeyemon: For the District of Columbia.

William B. Jr: For the District of Columbia. For what is now the Supreme Court.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that with the Carter Administration?

William B. Jr: Uh, well President Carter was so gracious enough to appoint me to that committee.

Oloye Adeyemon: And how long did you serve there?

William B. Jr: I was a five-year term, but I didn't serve up to five years because, um, although I had a-a great life and did a lot of things, that was what you might call a black time in my life because, uh, if you're familiar with the, uh, Alcee Hastings case, who's a congressman now, he and I were—

Oloye Adeyemon: Explain that case. Some people may not know.

William B. Jr: Well he and I were charged—I was charged with bribing him.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was his role in—

William B. Jr: Well he was a federal judge at the time.

Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.

William B. Jr: And—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where?

William B. Jr: In, uh, Florida.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

William B. Jr: Now in terms of the facts of the case and what happened, you-you-your constituents would have to read what they want 'cause I have taken a position all this time not to talk about whether that did or did not happen.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

William B. Jr: And—

Oloye Adeyemon: But both of you were charged, and he was found innocent?

William B. Jr: He was found not guilty. And I—

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

William B. Jr: - I was found guilty on one-man conspiracy, but I was found guilty.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what happened after that?

William B. Jr: Uh, I went to jail.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And when you came out?

William B. Jr: I came out, I made my own business, and after that, uh, at a later time, I, um, a friend of mine wa-was at Howard University and is now a congressman, Congressman Earl Hilliard, was so gracious to ask to, uh, and I taught school for a while. But Congress Earl Hilliard was so gracious to give me a job in his general counsel, and you don't have to remember the bar to do a general counsel.

Oloye Adeyemon: But you-you have a full pardon.

William B. Jr: I got a pardon on January, the 20th of this year.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: President Bill Clinton was gracious enough to give me a pardon, and I'm eternally grateful for him to have the foresight to give me a second chance [unintelligible 14:35].

Oloye Adeyemon: And now I understand that you've met Spottswood Bolling, um, in the 10th grade. When he came into high school, he-he arrived at high school as a freshman at the same time you did.

William B. Jr: We-we arrived February of 1954. Uh, at that time, you could graduate from, um, junior high school mid-year, and we both graduated, we met, and we were in same homeroom. Uh, we were friend up until he died of cancer. In fact, I saw him the night before he died. I used to go see him every day.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what year was that?

William B. Jr: Uh, it's been a few years ago. Um, four-four years.

Oloye Adeyemon: And I understand he has a wife and daughter?

William B. Jr: He has a wife and a-a daughter. That daughter's name after his mother. Uh, Sarah Bolling.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you also-you also knew Sarah Bolling.

William B. Jr: Yes, and I was, uh, fortunate enough to be a pole bearer at, um, her funeral.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were you a little concerned about, uh, because of the-the, I guess, the meeting and everything. Were you-were you a little concerned about being the pole bearer, and if so, why?

William B. Jr: Well I was a convicted felon at the time, and I had just gotten out of, um, jail. And Spotts, who supported me all the time was a vo—very close, one of my closest friends, called me and asked—

Oloye Adeyemon: Spottswood Bolling.

William B. Jr: Yes. Spottswood Bolling. Excuse me. I [crosstalk 15:58]—

Oloye Adeyemon: No, it's all right.

William B. Jr: - [unintelligible 15:59]. He had called me to, uh, be a pole bearer, and I said, "Spotts, the news media is gonna be there, and all of that." And I just gotten out of jail. You don't need this. This is in honor of your mother. And she—and he said, "My mother would want you to be a pole bearer, and I'm asking you because I don't care about. You-you're my friend You hear me?" And I-I was a pole bearer.

Oloye Adeyemon: In addition to, um, being classmates, you also were Catholic.

William B. Jr: Yeah, we belonged to, uh, [unintelligible 16:26].

Oloye Adeyemon: So going back, um, when you went to elementary school in, uh, Northeast—

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - um, again, what was the school?

William B. Jr: Uh, I started at Burrville. I did the first three years at Burrville. I—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where was that?

William B. Jr: That's in far Northeast in, uh, they've torn down the building I went to and rebuilt the buildin', but it's still in the Northeast on Grand Street.

Oloye Adeyemon: On Grand Street. And the other schools?

William B. Jr: Maury Elementary School, which was right down the street. They had some—

Oloye Adeyemon: On the same street?

William B. Jr: No, not on the same street, but it's-it's about three blocks away, and—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where was [unintelligible 17:03]?

William B. Jr: Uh, yes. Forty-ninth Street.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Forty-ninth and—

William B. Jr: Uh, hm. The street escapes me.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And you went t-to two elementary schools [crosstalk 17:17]—

William B. Jr: Two elementary schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 17:17].

William B. Jr: One, one to three, and then three through six.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What was the, um, school system, elementary education?

William B. Jr: Well I think I got a good education. You gotta understand, the system was segregated but it worked to the kids' advantage for this reason. Those [unintelligible 17:35] Afro-Americans who had [unintelligible 17:38] through college and gotten master's and other degrees couldn't do anything but go in the post office, teach, be lawyers and have unlimited practice, or be a doctor. So all those people with education, the-they were there, and we had the best of the best.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And they were—they motivated you. They-they were concerned about your—

William B. Jr: They did more than—

Oloye Adeyemon: - education.

William B. Jr: - motivated. They would not let you do bad. Uh, during that time they had corporal punishment, and they knew how to use it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were-were any of them, at that early point, uh, they inspired you?

William B. Jr: Uh, yes. There was a Mr. Burke 18:16 who inspired me in elementary school. There was, in my junior high school, there was so many, and, um—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 18:24]?

William B. Jr: - oh, I [unintelligible 18:26]. Muriel Alexander, the principal. Mrs. Wells, the math teacher. Uh, Othelus Savoy 18:30, who was the printing teacher. Uh, Mr. Weatherson 18:35 was a history teacher. Uh, Mr. Temple and, uh, Mr. Bridges who were the gym teachers. And I could go on and on. All of them were-were like family to us, and they took care of us. And even in the recreation room 'cause we had a man named Kiya Ballot 18:52, who was my—

Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell that?

William B. Jr: K-I-Y-A. Kiya. Ballot. His real name was Reginald Ballot, but he coached me basketball 'til the 12 and under, which I played on 2 years and won the city championship one year. In 13, 14, that he played on when he was [unintelligible 19:13]. And, um, I played baseball for a man named Mr. Brooks, and all those people were-were role models for us.

Oloye Adeyemon: And they encouraged you.

William B. Jr: Oh, yeah. They encouraged—it's interesting. I never, in elementary school, junior high school or senior high school, saw a male teacher without a tie until he was in the gym. And then a lot of them had ties on. You didn't see teachers come to school with, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Casual.

William B. Jr: - casual. They-they-they did not do that at––and in my junior high school, Muriel Alexander would not let you in the school if you didn't have a tie on, the kids. And—

Oloye Adeyemon: What [unintelligible 19:55]?

William B. Jr: That was at 49th and Brooks.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now this was junior high in Northeast. And my understanding is that Spottswood Bolling graduated from Brownsburg 20:08 school and—in Southeast, but there were not—it was not a large Black community, and so they did not have their own junior high and high school. And he had, um, he had—there had been a group, uh, concerned 20:23 parents group that lived, uh, [unintelligible 20:26] enroll in the school [unintelligible 20:29] which is the White school in the Southeast.

William B. Jr: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: And then I think five of them and two—and three parents, they were going to be [unintelligible 20:36]—

William B. Jr: [Crosstalk 20:38].

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 20:38] be, uh-be, uh, other—her two children. Uh, five of them—eight of them, sorry, um, filed a-a complaint through [unintelligible 20:50]. Um—

William B. Jr: They filed a lawsuit.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yes, I'm sorry. Lawsuit. Um, and that, you know, led to the Supreme Court. But my understanding is that the closest school, he had to travel all the way through the Southeast section of the city and then to the far Northeast part of the city to go to, uh, Brown junior high school.

William B. Jr: Yes. Um—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where is that located?

William B. Jr: Brown Jun-Junior High was at 24th and Benning, and there-there were 4 schools there. Um, an elementary school, Brown Junior High, Phelps location. And in the-in the early '50s, Spingarn High School was built, and that's where I went to high school.

Oloye Adeyemon: But at this time, you're both in junior high school in the Northeast.

William B. Jr: Yes, but I didn't know Spottswood.

Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause you were-'cause you were at—

William B. Jr: Kelly Miller.

Oloye Adeyemon: Kelly Miller. How far was Kelly Miller from, uh, Brown?

William B. Jr: Uh, it was not in walking distance.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, and there was a third junior high school in Northeast?

William B. Jr: Uh, no.

Oloye Adeyemon: Just two.

William B. Jr: There was two in the Northeast.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 21:52]. Okay. So he went to one of those two.

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, and when you entered high school, he entered the same high school. It was-it was only one high school in the Northeast.

William B. Jr: It was one high school. One—well, let's put it this way. There was only one Black high school for Afro-Americans.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. One high school.

William B. Jr: Hm.

Oloye Adeyemon: There was a White high school as well.

William B. Jr: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And so—but he still lived in Southeast.

William B. Jr: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you have an idea of how long it took him to get to school? Travel all across from-from [unintelligible 22:24] to—

William B. Jr: Well he had to catch the bus and hitchhike, and I don't know, but he may have had to transfer.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 22:29] this-this [unintelligible 22:31] across the entire town.

William B. Jr: Not across the entire town 'cause he was living in Southeast. We went from Southeast to Northeast. But—

Oloye Adeyemon: But he had to go all the way to the-to the northern part of Northeast.

William B. Jr: Yeah, but that-that was everybody. In-in, uh, high schools, people had to go farther than that because there were only, until Spingarn was built, there were only four Afro-American high schools in the city.

Oloye Adeyemon: One of those was in Northeast.

William B. Jr: Well when Spingarn was built, but prior to that, none was in the Northeast.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. Where was Phelps?

William B. Jr: Well I'm sorry. Phelps. Phelps was there. I'm sorry.

Oloye Adeyemon: And that was technical school.

William B. Jr: It was a—

Oloye Adeyemon: Trading school.

William B. Jr: - trading school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And the other three were—

William B. Jr: Uh, there was, uh, Cardozo High School, which was in Northwest. There was Dunbar High School, which was in Northwest. There was, um, Martha Washington, which was basically for females.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And that was, um, and Armstrong, which was across the street from Dunbar.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, Dunbar was a pretty famous school.

William B. Jr: Yes. Yes. It-it-it was reported to be, durin' the '30s and the '40s, the 2nd best Afro-American high school in the country.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was the first?

William B. Jr: Uh, Dunbar in Chicago.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And it specialized in academics.

William B. Jr: Yes, it did. Uh, uh, kids left there and went to Amherst—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - Dartmouth, um, all the Ivy League schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: Across the street was Armstrong. Did it have a different [unintelligible 23:58]?

William B. Jr: Uh, yes. It was a technical school, and they had-they had some academics there, and-and-and they did well. But all the schools did well. The school system was very—and people went to college from all the high schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: And the parents were involved, teachers were involved in children's education [crosstalk 24:17].

William B. Jr: Of course.

Oloye Adeyemon: Much different than now.

William B. Jr: Uh, I-I'm not so sure. Some, uh, parents are involved now, and I'm sure some teachers are involved with parents, but this was everybody.

Oloye Adeyemon: Everybody. Mm-hmm. So when you, uh, went to the high school, did you, uh, meet Spotts early? In freshman year?

William B. Jr: I met him the first day I was there 'cause we were in the same homeroom.

Oloye Adeyemon: Same homeroom.

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: And, um, at that time, did you know who he was? Did you know about the case?

William B. Jr: No. Uh, Spotts was a very reserved person. He didn't brag about anything. He was a very nice person. He didn't talk about—we really knew about the case only in 1955 when the, uh, decision was made.

Oloye Adeyemon: How did you find out [unintelligible 25:04]?

William B. Jr: Well—

Oloye Adeyemon: Well I know everybody knew, but I'm saying, you're saying you found out he was involved.

William B. Jr: Yeah. I had.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: There was another individual in class, Gardner Bishop, who-who-who was also in my homeroom when we started. Uh, but we [crosstalk 25:18]—

Oloye Adeyemon: That's Gardner Bishop, Jr.

William B. Jr: Yeah. Gardner Bishop, Jr.

Oloye Adeyemon: His father was the [unintelligible 25:21]?

William B. Jr: Yes, he was. He was a barber, and he was very instrumental and helpful to move forward, uh, the Afro-American agenda.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: Uh, I remember the day that the case came out, we had a principal who's name was Dr. Purvis Jay Williams 25:39, who was, uh, actually was a man who's still living. You might wanna interview him. But all these reporters, these reporters [unintelligible 25:47] on the school, wanna come in and just interview, uh, Spottswood Bolling. And the principal told him and said, "No, you have to make an appointment, and he's in class. And I'm not gonna take any student out of class to just talk to you."

Oloye Adeyemon: So they came immediately after the Supreme Court [crosstalk 26:04]—

William B. Jr: No, I don't—I-I can't answer that.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 26:06]. They just showed up.

William B. Jr: Just showed up. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: And he, you know, had to wait.

William B. Jr: Yes. If you knew Dr. Williams, you-you worked on his time frame.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And he did that because of his, uh—

William B. Jr: Caring for—

Oloye Adeyemon: - caring for—

William B. Jr: - the kids.

Oloye Adeyemon: - the kids and their education.

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, so Bishop, uh, uh, Gardner Bishop—

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, did you know his father?

William B. Jr: I met his father, uh, years later. Uh, and I had seen his father on the PTA meetings and things of that nature.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: But I didn't know who he was.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: But years later, uh, I was in the barbershop where we worked. And he may—I'm not sure, but he may have even cut my hair at some point. I'm not sure.

Oloye Adeyemon: So did-did, uh, Gardner Bishop and Spottswood Bolling know each other from the period when, uh, Mr. Bishop led the students, including, uh—

William B. Jr: I would—

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 27:12] to-to [unintelligible 27:14]?

William B. Jr: I would assume so, but I-I can't answer that question because, um, when we were in, um, we were in homeroom on that first day. Everybody got to know everybody quite well.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 27:26].

William B. Jr: Nah.

Oloye Adeyemon: So did, um, how did Spottswood feel about, uh, things that had happened? I mean, I understand you didn't talk about it, but did you have any, uh, sense of how he felt about the school systems?

William B. Jr: Well we all knew that the school system that we had was good, but we also knew it was wrong that, when we were in junior high school and we needed books, we would get the books that White schools had. We'd see names and stamped in from White school. We also knew that, um, uh, they had, in the athletics, they had division one and division two, and Black athletes, the Afro-Americans couldn't play White—although they played on the playground, some of them, the better ones played at Turkey-Turkey Thicket in terms of dealing with basketball.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

William B. Jr: But it was—

Oloye Adeyemon: Now explain to me. Turkey—

William B. Jr: That was a place where they went to play basketball.

Oloye Adeyemon: It's not-it's not [unintelligible 28:36].

William B. Jr: No. No. This was recreation.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Okay. But-but that was integrated.

William B. Jr: Well when you have a pickup game—

Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. I see.

William B. Jr: - and people are tryin' their skills and they wanna play the best.

Oloye Adeyemon: This is basketball.

William B. Jr: Yeah, it's basketball.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now Elgin Baylor went to [unintelligible 28:51].

William B. Jr: Yes. He was ahead of me. Elgin Baylor was a senior and was there for one semester while I was there.

Oloye Adeyemon: At the high school.

William B. Jr: At the high school. And, um, he—I used to watch Elgin Baylor practice because, before he went to Spingarn, he went to Phelps.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And they didn't have a gym.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And they used to have to travel everyday from Phelps all the way to Kelly Miller to practice basketball.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And that's to—

Oloye Adeyemon: They didn't even have a White school [crosstalk 29:17].

William B. Jr: Of course. Some of 'em had swimmin' pools.

Oloye Adeyemon: But despite that obstacle, um, [crosstalk 29:22].

William B. Jr: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So they would come out and practice, uh, and-and we used to watch 'em, when I was going to Kelly Miller, [unintelligible 29:29] practice. Some of the other, um, Afro-American high schools had, uh, gyms, but Phelps didn't have one, and then he trained with the coach, uh, Dave Brown was transferred to Spingarn, he transferred to Spingarn too.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did, uh, there were integrated games?

William B. Jr: Oh, no. I attended the first integrated basketball game when I was in the 10th grade, and that was between Spingarn High School and John Carroll High School. That's the school that John Thompson later went to, but it was a White school, Catholic school, and so black school 30:01.

Oloye Adeyemon: So you-you integrated sports between public school [unintelligible 30:05].

William B. Jr: No.

Oloye Adeyemon: But the Catholic school integrated.

William B. Jr: Yeah. That was the first school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that—that was in––there on that 30:09 too?

William B. Jr: Yeah. Exactly.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 30:11].

William B. Jr: No. No. No.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, uh, it sounds as if, uh, from your experience, the schools were good and you felt good about your education.

William B. Jr: Well, let me tell you—

Oloye Adeyemon: But you just didn't feel good about the situation.

William B. Jr: Yeah. Yeah. Let me tell you why, and let me tell you somethin'. Some of my junior high school teachers and later my high school teachers became college professors and, uh, at a later time, but they had to wait 'til someone moved on, and—

Oloye Adeyemon: Some of them had master's at that time.

William B. Jr: Master's? A lot of 'em had PhDs.

Oloye Adeyemon: And were teaching school 'cause that's all the—public schools 'cause that's all—

William B. Jr: I had in my high school, two members of the athletic department, so-so they PhDs. One had a PhD from Springfield.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: That school. They had and they were goin' to some-some of the, uh, teachers—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 31:03].

William B. Jr: Yeah. Uh, some of the teachers would go study in France and Germany if they were, uh, uh dealin' with a language. And they had a lot, and a lot of them later became professors at Howard.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And so we had great teachers, great disciplinarians. And they—but they couldn't be—and if-if the system had been fair, they would have had, uh, jobs in the state department and other places like that. But-but because of their color, they had to teach school.

Oloye Adeyemon: And so in your relationship with Spottswood, would you be able to speak for how he felt about the education he received?

William B. Jr: He thought it was an excellent education. We all did.

Oloye Adeyemon: But all of you would have—would-would—

William B. Jr: We would never say—

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 31:46]—

William B. Jr: No.

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 31:47]—

William B. Jr: We would not have changed our education system.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: But we didn't wanna be second class citizens.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

William B. Jr: And that's the difference.

Oloye Adeyemon: And that was partly what resulted after you graduated but also in the resources that were made available to you.

William B. Jr: We made it in spite of.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I understand.

William B. Jr: Yeah. So we didn't have the resources that, uh, uh, the other schools had.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you didn't have opportunities when you graduated as well.

William B. Jr: Uh, no. No. Not when we graduated.

Oloye Adeyemon: How much change do you think took place, uh, when did you graduate from high school?

William B. Jr: 1957.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, did you see any change in the school system during those two years after the Supreme Court decision?

William B. Jr: Well they began to integrate, and, uh, teams began to play, and as this—and a lot of Whites began to move out of the city, and-and the schools became more and more Afro-American.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now when you say integrate, some Blacks went to White schools. Whites didn't come to Black schools during that year [unintelligible 32:43].

William B. Jr: There was one White female that came to Spingarn, stayed for two weeks and left. For what reason? I don't know.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did the teaching staff integrate after the Supreme Court case?

William B. Jr: I never had a White teacher until I went to college.

Oloye Adeyemon: Is there anything that you would like to, uh, say in closing? Uh, your feelings about the education system? Your feelings about the importance of the case?

William B. Jr: Well I would like to say that Sarah Bolling, Gardner Bishop, Sr., and those people made a great contribution to the city of Washington and to the country at large by putting their kids on the line to integrate schools because that wasn't an easy thing, and everybody was against it. And they were pioneers, and they led, and they instilled in their kids as did the teachers. For example, I was involved in the civil rights movement in Maryland State College, but I had learned about it from high school. I learned about it from junior high. These people were giants. They were legends in their own time. And I was privileged to be taught by them, and I was privileged to know them. And I did my student teachin' at Spingarn after I got the [unintelligible 34:12].

And I have no regrets about the people who taught me, but I-I have regrets about this country in terms of what it does and has done to people in terms of dealing with race. Um, I think every person should-should have the same opportunity to move forward, be Black, be Asian, Italian, whatever. And we have to get away from it. We've come a long way, but we have still not reached the finish line. Martin Luther King did a lot of things, and there are things that still need to be done.

And this was a part of the educational system, and it was instilled in us, and we will always have it. And I'm proud to have gone to the schools in the District of Columbia. I'm proud to have known Sarah Bolling, and I'm proud that Spottswood Bolling was a very close personal friend of mine. And the only thing, I don't think Spotts ever got his due in terms of position that he holds in history, nor did his mother. And I think—

Oloye Adeyemon: I understand his mother was very influential.

William B. Jr: Yes, she was. Yes, she was. A very eloquent lady.

Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you so much.

William B. Jr: [Unintelligible 35:24].

[Pause 35:25 - 35:34]

[End of Audio]

Duration:

35 minutes, 34 seconds

Boarders was appointed to a committee responsible for selecting judges for the District of Columbia by President Jimmy Carter, and later served as the president of the National Bar Association. Boarders was jailed for a one-man conspiracy to bribe Alcee Hastings, who was a federal judge at the time, before receiving a pardon from President Bill Clinton January 20, 2001. Boarders was a close friend of Spottswood Bolling, the plaintiff in the Bolling v. Sharpe case.

Brown v. Board of Education Oral Histories

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Oral History Interview with William Boarders Jr.

Oloye Adeyemon: Brown v, Board oral history collection. Washington, DC, school segregation desegregation interviews. Interviewee, Mr. William Boarder, Jr.—William Boarders, Jr. Interviewee—interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon from the National Park Service. Interview conducted on Capitol Hill on July 24, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown v, Board oral history research project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown v, Board of Education National Historic Site oral history project. Mr. Boarders, what is your full name for me?

William B. Jr: William Arthur Boarders, Jr.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthday?

William B. Jr: 3/9/39.

Oloye Adeyemon: And which place?

William B. Jr: Summer, Georgia.

Oloye Adeyemon: Who were your parents?

William B. Jr: Alberta Boarders and William Arthur Boarders, Sr.

Oloye Adeyemon: And your mother's maiden name?

William B. Jr: Uh, her m-maiden name is Best 01:15.

Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, are they from—also from Summer, some town—

William B. Jr: Summer, Georgia.

Oloye Adeyemon: Summer.

William B. Jr: My mother was from Metter, Georgia.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: My father was from North Carolina.

Oloye Adeyemon: And they—what-what was their occupation?

William B. Jr: Uh, my father worked for Pepco as a construction person. My mother was what they then called a ch-child [unintelligible 01:38]. She, uh, worked in, first, people's home, and then she later worked as, um, worked for Pullman Railroad cleaning the cars.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And then at a later time, she worked at the Pentagon cleanin' rooms in the Pentagon.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What year did you move to Washington, DC?

William B. Jr: Uh, my mother came in the '30s. My father came about the same time. I-I really don't—

Oloye Adeyemon: They met here?

William B. Jr: Yeah, they met here.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, uh, uh, now what were your brothers and sisters' names?

William B. Jr: I have no brothers. I have no sisters.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. When you arrived in—how old were you when—

William B. Jr: Well my mother and father were living here, but she went back home to give birth to me because her mother had a lot experience in having children because she had 18 children, so she knew more about it than my mother did.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay. And so at what age did you come to live in Washington, DC?

William B. Jr: Well almost at birth. She just went down, uh, to give birth to me and then came right back.

Oloye Adeyemon: Then she came right back.

William B. Jr: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what area of the city did you live in at that time?

William B. Jr: Uh, I've always lived in the Northeast area. E—my mother and father, at a very early age, before they bought a house, they lived in the Southeast and Southwest area, but as a little kid, I-I grew up in Northeast, Wash—far Northeast, Washington.

Oloye Adeyemon: What street?

William B. Jr: Uh, Foote. F-O-O-T-E.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And was that where the Black communities was concentrated in Northeast and far Northeast?

William B. Jr: Well it was interestin'. During tha-that time, the city was segregated. Uh, my mother and father never went to college. They never finished high school, but the city was so segregated that living right next door to us was a professor at Howard University 'cause he could not buy—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - a home any other place. Blacks live where they could live.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right. But, like, what I'm asking you is, in the residential patterns of the Northeast section—

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - of the city, was it the far Northeast where most of the Blacks in that section of the city?

William B. Jr: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now would that-would that-have bordered, um, Maryland?

William B. Jr: Yeah. I lived two blocks from Maryland.

Oloye Adeyemon: What part of Maryland?

William B. Jr: Uh, Seat Pleasant, Chapel Oaks and all of that area.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you know historically why it happened that Blacks were in that strip of, uh, Northeast at the time?

William B. Jr: Well if you know anything about this country, we were put where they wanted to put us. And, uh, at one time, if you look at the history, we as a race were, most of us were in Georgetown—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - but they moved us out of Georgetown and made it a, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Exclusive—

William B. Jr: - exclusive area.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that-was that section of Maryland that you bordered a area that had Blacks?

William B. Jr: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So that might've had something to do with the [unintelligible 04:36]?

William B. Jr: I can't speak to why it was done, but it was the area where they let us buy homes.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Uh, did your family [unintelligible 04:43]?

William B. Jr: Yes. I have been very fortunate in my life, which is highly unusual. I've never lived in an apartment.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So as a child growing up, uh, you attended schools here in the Northeast.

William B. Jr: Yes, I did.

Oloye Adeyemon: What elementary school?

William B. Jr: I went to Burrville Elementary School, transferred to Maury Elementary School. Then I went to Kelly Miller Junior High and then Spingarn High School.

Oloye Adeyemon: When you graduated from there, uh, what did you do?

William B. Jr: I left Spingarn, I worked for a year, and then I went to what it was then called Maryland State College. It's now called University of Maryland, Eastern Shore.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where is that?

William B. Jr: That's in Princess Anne borough. A hundred and thirty-four miles from Washington on the eastern shore.

Oloye Adeyemon: And, um, after, uh, going there, what did you do?

William B. Jr: Uh, when I graduated from Maryland State College, I went to Howard University School of Law.

Oloye Adeyemon: You graduated from there what year?

William B. Jr: I graduated from School—uh, Howard University School of Law in 1965.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So that would have been approximately 10 years after the Supreme Court decision.

William B. Jr: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Were there a-attorneys that had been involved in that litigation that you knew at Howard?

William B. Jr: Uh, yes. Just about the whole faculty because what would happen wa-was that when cases were to be [unintelligible 06:03] for Supreme Court dealin' with desegregation all over the country, they would come to Howard University and have mock trials. And some of the, uh, professors up there had helped write the briefs a-and helped to shape their argument, and it was like a canvas for the desegregation cases at Howard University School of Law.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I understand that a-attorney Hayes and attorney Dugas were both, uh, they were actually with the firm that pled the case. Uh, didn't both of them have a-a connection to Howard?

William B. Jr: Yes. Both of them graduated from Howard. Both of them, uh, had a great love for Howard, and they, uh, were involved in helping students in wh-whatever way they could. And they also participated in the trial practice course for the second-year students.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did you know either one?

William B. Jr: I knew Julian Dugas very well. I knew Mr. Hayes. Uh, when I got there, Mr. Nabrit had just changed from bein' dean of the law school and gone on the be president of, uh, Howard University. And Spottswood [unintelligible 07:14]—Spottswood Robinson became the dean of the law school, and they all had something to do with it. Spottswood helped write, uh, Spotts—Dean Robinson helped write a lot of the briefs.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Um, I believe that, um, attorney Hayes and, um, and, uh, attorney Nabrit were the, uh, the consults for the Washington, DC, uh, contingent and did, uh, argue that case. And I think, uh, if I remember correctly, uh, attorney Dugas and, uh, and, uh, attorney Robinson were both, uh, also part of their team.

William B. Jr: Yeah, they helped to write the briefs and there were quite a few. And, uh, if you see that picture of-of the case when it was decided, you see Mr. Hayes and Mr. Nabrit—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - among Thurgood Marhsall and other standing on the steps of the Supreme Court.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. When you, uh, came through, um, was-wa-was there opportunities to discuss the Supreme Court case with any of them? Did any of them talk about it with you?

William B. Jr: Um, [unintelligible 08:28] always in an intellectual setting such as Howard University discussed the law of the day, the passed law—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - and it was, uh, a place where they talked about what they had done and-and gave us some of the background, what happened in the case.

Oloye Adeyemon: Can you share with us a little bit of that insight, uh, understanding the [unintelligible 08:49] and the importance of the case?

William B. Jr: Well it's self-explanatory in one sense because this Brown v. Board of Education, Bolling v. Sharpe enabled Afro-American, who were called Negroes then, to be able to be educated right alongside of Whites and have equal opportunity. They had—it was no longer a situation where Afro-Americans or Negroes, as they were called then, had hand-me-down books, got schools that, uh, had been used by Whites and then was turned over to Blacks and they built a new school for the Whites. And it was a time that turned this country around.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. In addition to the challenge to school segregation, uh, weren't there constitutional issues that were involved in that case?

William B. Jr: Well that's what the case was all about. That's the only—

Oloye Adeyemon: Explain it to us.

William B. Jr: Well there was a document on the Plessy v. Ferguson and other cases that were separate but equal. There's no such thing as separate but equal. Uh, if the Wh—uh, Blacks had been the majority, they probably would have had more than the Whites. So you can't have—you gotta have a level playin' field, and we still don't have a total level playin' field in this country, but it is better than it was then.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was it the case that, uh, the District of Columbia case was the only one that was based in [unintelligible 10:10] as opposed to 14?

William B. Jr: Uh, well you gotta understand, the District of Columbia is not a state. It's a, uh, territory. And these legals minds crafted a case to get all of them in court so that they wouldn't be found out and to go forward and to help our people move forward.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. After, uh, graduating from Howard, what did you do?

William B. Jr: Uh, I taught school, and I-and I began to practice law.

Oloye Adeyemon: Here in the DC system?

William B. Jr: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, what school?

William B. Jr: Uh, I taught in Kelly Miller extended day school program, which is a school that I had gone to—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - that it wa—when I was in junior high school. And, uh, for—and the principal of the extended day school was one of my former teachers.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.

William B. Jr: And the principal of the junior high school was still there. Muriel Alexander 11:04 was a great lady who come from Atlanta, and she believed in young kids, and she did a lot for 'em. Did a lot for me.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.

William B. Jr: And, uh, she was the principal of that school then.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where'd you go from teaching?

William B. Jr: Uh, I taught school in the evening, and I started practicing law in the daytime.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And I did both until I could have a substantial practice.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And then, as you developed, you know, your-your-your law practice, did you, at some point, uh, work with the Carter Administration?

William B. Jr: Well I got involved in politics through someone who had been in Howard, uh, who is now deceased. [Unintelligible 11:49] civil rights movement from the state of Georgia, he had gone to Clark University, which is Clark College, called Benjamin Brown, who was a deputy, uh, director of Carter's campaign. He got me involved. And I became involved from fu-fund raising and other areas and dealing with that. And also, I became-became involved in the National Bar Association, which I later became president of the National Bar Association, and I later became president [unintelligible 12:18].

Oloye Adeyemon: And were you involved in, um, the process of, uh, selecting the judges?

William B. Jr: At-at one point, I was on the committee that selected judges. Um, I—

Oloye Adeyemon: For the District of Columbia.

William B. Jr: For the District of Columbia. For what is now the Supreme Court.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that with the Carter Administration?

William B. Jr: Uh, well President Carter was so gracious enough to appoint me to that committee.

Oloye Adeyemon: And how long did you serve there?

William B. Jr: I was a five-year term, but I didn't serve up to five years because, um, although I had a-a great life and did a lot of things, that was what you might call a black time in my life because, uh, if you're familiar with the, uh, Alcee Hastings case, who's a congressman now, he and I were—

Oloye Adeyemon: Explain that case. Some people may not know.

William B. Jr: Well he and I were charged—I was charged with bribing him.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was his role in—

William B. Jr: Well he was a federal judge at the time.

Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.

William B. Jr: And—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where?

William B. Jr: In, uh, Florida.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

William B. Jr: Now in terms of the facts of the case and what happened, you-you-your constituents would have to read what they want 'cause I have taken a position all this time not to talk about whether that did or did not happen.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

William B. Jr: And—

Oloye Adeyemon: But both of you were charged, and he was found innocent?

William B. Jr: He was found not guilty. And I—

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

William B. Jr: - I was found guilty on one-man conspiracy, but I was found guilty.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what happened after that?

William B. Jr: Uh, I went to jail.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And when you came out?

William B. Jr: I came out, I made my own business, and after that, uh, at a later time, I, um, a friend of mine wa-was at Howard University and is now a congressman, Congressman Earl Hilliard, was so gracious to ask to, uh, and I taught school for a while. But Congress Earl Hilliard was so gracious to give me a job in his general counsel, and you don't have to remember the bar to do a general counsel.

Oloye Adeyemon: But you-you have a full pardon.

William B. Jr: I got a pardon on January, the 20th of this year.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: President Bill Clinton was gracious enough to give me a pardon, and I'm eternally grateful for him to have the foresight to give me a second chance [unintelligible 14:35].

Oloye Adeyemon: And now I understand that you've met Spottswood Bolling, um, in the 10th grade. When he came into high school, he-he arrived at high school as a freshman at the same time you did.

William B. Jr: We-we arrived February of 1954. Uh, at that time, you could graduate from, um, junior high school mid-year, and we both graduated, we met, and we were in same homeroom. Uh, we were friend up until he died of cancer. In fact, I saw him the night before he died. I used to go see him every day.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what year was that?

William B. Jr: Uh, it's been a few years ago. Um, four-four years.

Oloye Adeyemon: And I understand he has a wife and daughter?

William B. Jr: He has a wife and a-a daughter. That daughter's name after his mother. Uh, Sarah Bolling.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you also-you also knew Sarah Bolling.

William B. Jr: Yes, and I was, uh, fortunate enough to be a pole bearer at, um, her funeral.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were you a little concerned about, uh, because of the-the, I guess, the meeting and everything. Were you-were you a little concerned about being the pole bearer, and if so, why?

William B. Jr: Well I was a convicted felon at the time, and I had just gotten out of, um, jail. And Spotts, who supported me all the time was a vo—very close, one of my closest friends, called me and asked—

Oloye Adeyemon: Spottswood Bolling.

William B. Jr: Yes. Spottswood Bolling. Excuse me. I [crosstalk 15:58]—

Oloye Adeyemon: No, it's all right.

William B. Jr: - [unintelligible 15:59]. He had called me to, uh, be a pole bearer, and I said, "Spotts, the news media is gonna be there, and all of that." And I just gotten out of jail. You don't need this. This is in honor of your mother. And she—and he said, "My mother would want you to be a pole bearer, and I'm asking you because I don't care about. You-you're my friend You hear me?" And I-I was a pole bearer.

Oloye Adeyemon: In addition to, um, being classmates, you also were Catholic.

William B. Jr: Yeah, we belonged to, uh, [unintelligible 16:26].

Oloye Adeyemon: So going back, um, when you went to elementary school in, uh, Northeast—

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - um, again, what was the school?

William B. Jr: Uh, I started at Burrville. I did the first three years at Burrville. I—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where was that?

William B. Jr: That's in far Northeast in, uh, they've torn down the building I went to and rebuilt the buildin', but it's still in the Northeast on Grand Street.

Oloye Adeyemon: On Grand Street. And the other schools?

William B. Jr: Maury Elementary School, which was right down the street. They had some—

Oloye Adeyemon: On the same street?

William B. Jr: No, not on the same street, but it's-it's about three blocks away, and—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where was [unintelligible 17:03]?

William B. Jr: Uh, yes. Forty-ninth Street.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Forty-ninth and—

William B. Jr: Uh, hm. The street escapes me.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And you went t-to two elementary schools [crosstalk 17:17]—

William B. Jr: Two elementary schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 17:17].

William B. Jr: One, one to three, and then three through six.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What was the, um, school system, elementary education?

William B. Jr: Well I think I got a good education. You gotta understand, the system was segregated but it worked to the kids' advantage for this reason. Those [unintelligible 17:35] Afro-Americans who had [unintelligible 17:38] through college and gotten master's and other degrees couldn't do anything but go in the post office, teach, be lawyers and have unlimited practice, or be a doctor. So all those people with education, the-they were there, and we had the best of the best.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And they were—they motivated you. They-they were concerned about your—

William B. Jr: They did more than—

Oloye Adeyemon: - education.

William B. Jr: - motivated. They would not let you do bad. Uh, during that time they had corporal punishment, and they knew how to use it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were-were any of them, at that early point, uh, they inspired you?

William B. Jr: Uh, yes. There was a Mr. Burke 18:16 who inspired me in elementary school. There was, in my junior high school, there was so many, and, um—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 18:24]?

William B. Jr: - oh, I [unintelligible 18:26]. Muriel Alexander, the principal. Mrs. Wells, the math teacher. Uh, Othelus Savoy 18:30, who was the printing teacher. Uh, Mr. Weatherson 18:35 was a history teacher. Uh, Mr. Temple and, uh, Mr. Bridges who were the gym teachers. And I could go on and on. All of them were-were like family to us, and they took care of us. And even in the recreation room 'cause we had a man named Kiya Ballot 18:52, who was my—

Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell that?

William B. Jr: K-I-Y-A. Kiya. Ballot. His real name was Reginald Ballot, but he coached me basketball 'til the 12 and under, which I played on 2 years and won the city championship one year. In 13, 14, that he played on when he was [unintelligible 19:13]. And, um, I played baseball for a man named Mr. Brooks, and all those people were-were role models for us.

Oloye Adeyemon: And they encouraged you.

William B. Jr: Oh, yeah. They encouraged—it's interesting. I never, in elementary school, junior high school or senior high school, saw a male teacher without a tie until he was in the gym. And then a lot of them had ties on. You didn't see teachers come to school with, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Casual.

William B. Jr: - casual. They-they-they did not do that at––and in my junior high school, Muriel Alexander would not let you in the school if you didn't have a tie on, the kids. And—

Oloye Adeyemon: What [unintelligible 19:55]?

William B. Jr: That was at 49th and Brooks.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now this was junior high in Northeast. And my understanding is that Spottswood Bolling graduated from Brownsburg 20:08 school and—in Southeast, but there were not—it was not a large Black community, and so they did not have their own junior high and high school. And he had, um, he had—there had been a group, uh, concerned 20:23 parents group that lived, uh, [unintelligible 20:26] enroll in the school [unintelligible 20:29] which is the White school in the Southeast.

William B. Jr: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: And then I think five of them and two—and three parents, they were going to be [unintelligible 20:36]—

William B. Jr: [Crosstalk 20:38].

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 20:38] be, uh-be, uh, other—her two children. Uh, five of them—eight of them, sorry, um, filed a-a complaint through [unintelligible 20:50]. Um—

William B. Jr: They filed a lawsuit.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yes, I'm sorry. Lawsuit. Um, and that, you know, led to the Supreme Court. But my understanding is that the closest school, he had to travel all the way through the Southeast section of the city and then to the far Northeast part of the city to go to, uh, Brown junior high school.

William B. Jr: Yes. Um—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where is that located?

William B. Jr: Brown Jun-Junior High was at 24th and Benning, and there-there were 4 schools there. Um, an elementary school, Brown Junior High, Phelps location. And in the-in the early '50s, Spingarn High School was built, and that's where I went to high school.

Oloye Adeyemon: But at this time, you're both in junior high school in the Northeast.

William B. Jr: Yes, but I didn't know Spottswood.

Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause you were-'cause you were at—

William B. Jr: Kelly Miller.

Oloye Adeyemon: Kelly Miller. How far was Kelly Miller from, uh, Brown?

William B. Jr: Uh, it was not in walking distance.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, and there was a third junior high school in Northeast?

William B. Jr: Uh, no.

Oloye Adeyemon: Just two.

William B. Jr: There was two in the Northeast.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 21:52]. Okay. So he went to one of those two.

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, and when you entered high school, he entered the same high school. It was-it was only one high school in the Northeast.

William B. Jr: It was one high school. One—well, let's put it this way. There was only one Black high school for Afro-Americans.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. One high school.

William B. Jr: Hm.

Oloye Adeyemon: There was a White high school as well.

William B. Jr: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And so—but he still lived in Southeast.

William B. Jr: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you have an idea of how long it took him to get to school? Travel all across from-from [unintelligible 22:24] to—

William B. Jr: Well he had to catch the bus and hitchhike, and I don't know, but he may have had to transfer.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 22:29] this-this [unintelligible 22:31] across the entire town.

William B. Jr: Not across the entire town 'cause he was living in Southeast. We went from Southeast to Northeast. But—

Oloye Adeyemon: But he had to go all the way to the-to the northern part of Northeast.

William B. Jr: Yeah, but that-that was everybody. In-in, uh, high schools, people had to go farther than that because there were only, until Spingarn was built, there were only four Afro-American high schools in the city.

Oloye Adeyemon: One of those was in Northeast.

William B. Jr: Well when Spingarn was built, but prior to that, none was in the Northeast.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. Where was Phelps?

William B. Jr: Well I'm sorry. Phelps. Phelps was there. I'm sorry.

Oloye Adeyemon: And that was technical school.

William B. Jr: It was a—

Oloye Adeyemon: Trading school.

William B. Jr: - trading school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And the other three were—

William B. Jr: Uh, there was, uh, Cardozo High School, which was in Northwest. There was Dunbar High School, which was in Northwest. There was, um, Martha Washington, which was basically for females.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And that was, um, and Armstrong, which was across the street from Dunbar.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, Dunbar was a pretty famous school.

William B. Jr: Yes. Yes. It-it-it was reported to be, durin' the '30s and the '40s, the 2nd best Afro-American high school in the country.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was the first?

William B. Jr: Uh, Dunbar in Chicago.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And it specialized in academics.

William B. Jr: Yes, it did. Uh, uh, kids left there and went to Amherst—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: - Dartmouth, um, all the Ivy League schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: Across the street was Armstrong. Did it have a different [unintelligible 23:58]?

William B. Jr: Uh, yes. It was a technical school, and they had-they had some academics there, and-and-and they did well. But all the schools did well. The school system was very—and people went to college from all the high schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: And the parents were involved, teachers were involved in children's education [crosstalk 24:17].

William B. Jr: Of course.

Oloye Adeyemon: Much different than now.

William B. Jr: Uh, I-I'm not so sure. Some, uh, parents are involved now, and I'm sure some teachers are involved with parents, but this was everybody.

Oloye Adeyemon: Everybody. Mm-hmm. So when you, uh, went to the high school, did you, uh, meet Spotts early? In freshman year?

William B. Jr: I met him the first day I was there 'cause we were in the same homeroom.

Oloye Adeyemon: Same homeroom.

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: And, um, at that time, did you know who he was? Did you know about the case?

William B. Jr: No. Uh, Spotts was a very reserved person. He didn't brag about anything. He was a very nice person. He didn't talk about—we really knew about the case only in 1955 when the, uh, decision was made.

Oloye Adeyemon: How did you find out [unintelligible 25:04]?

William B. Jr: Well—

Oloye Adeyemon: Well I know everybody knew, but I'm saying, you're saying you found out he was involved.

William B. Jr: Yeah. I had.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: There was another individual in class, Gardner Bishop, who-who-who was also in my homeroom when we started. Uh, but we [crosstalk 25:18]—

Oloye Adeyemon: That's Gardner Bishop, Jr.

William B. Jr: Yeah. Gardner Bishop, Jr.

Oloye Adeyemon: His father was the [unintelligible 25:21]?

William B. Jr: Yes, he was. He was a barber, and he was very instrumental and helpful to move forward, uh, the Afro-American agenda.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: Uh, I remember the day that the case came out, we had a principal who's name was Dr. Purvis Jay Williams 25:39, who was, uh, actually was a man who's still living. You might wanna interview him. But all these reporters, these reporters [unintelligible 25:47] on the school, wanna come in and just interview, uh, Spottswood Bolling. And the principal told him and said, "No, you have to make an appointment, and he's in class. And I'm not gonna take any student out of class to just talk to you."

Oloye Adeyemon: So they came immediately after the Supreme Court [crosstalk 26:04]—

William B. Jr: No, I don't—I-I can't answer that.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 26:06]. They just showed up.

William B. Jr: Just showed up. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: And he, you know, had to wait.

William B. Jr: Yes. If you knew Dr. Williams, you-you worked on his time frame.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And he did that because of his, uh—

William B. Jr: Caring for—

Oloye Adeyemon: - caring for—

William B. Jr: - the kids.

Oloye Adeyemon: - the kids and their education.

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, so Bishop, uh, uh, Gardner Bishop—

William B. Jr: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, did you know his father?

William B. Jr: I met his father, uh, years later. Uh, and I had seen his father on the PTA meetings and things of that nature.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: But I didn't know who he was.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: But years later, uh, I was in the barbershop where we worked. And he may—I'm not sure, but he may have even cut my hair at some point. I'm not sure.

Oloye Adeyemon: So did-did, uh, Gardner Bishop and Spottswood Bolling know each other from the period when, uh, Mr. Bishop led the students, including, uh—

William B. Jr: I would—

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 27:12] to-to [unintelligible 27:14]?

William B. Jr: I would assume so, but I-I can't answer that question because, um, when we were in, um, we were in homeroom on that first day. Everybody got to know everybody quite well.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 27:26].

William B. Jr: Nah.

Oloye Adeyemon: So did, um, how did Spottswood feel about, uh, things that had happened? I mean, I understand you didn't talk about it, but did you have any, uh, sense of how he felt about the school systems?

William B. Jr: Well we all knew that the school system that we had was good, but we also knew it was wrong that, when we were in junior high school and we needed books, we would get the books that White schools had. We'd see names and stamped in from White school. We also knew that, um, uh, they had, in the athletics, they had division one and division two, and Black athletes, the Afro-Americans couldn't play White—although they played on the playground, some of them, the better ones played at Turkey-Turkey Thicket in terms of dealing with basketball.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

William B. Jr: But it was—

Oloye Adeyemon: Now explain to me. Turkey—

William B. Jr: That was a place where they went to play basketball.

Oloye Adeyemon: It's not-it's not [unintelligible 28:36].

William B. Jr: No. No. This was recreation.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Okay. But-but that was integrated.

William B. Jr: Well when you have a pickup game—

Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. I see.

William B. Jr: - and people are tryin' their skills and they wanna play the best.

Oloye Adeyemon: This is basketball.

William B. Jr: Yeah, it's basketball.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now Elgin Baylor went to [unintelligible 28:51].

William B. Jr: Yes. He was ahead of me. Elgin Baylor was a senior and was there for one semester while I was there.

Oloye Adeyemon: At the high school.

William B. Jr: At the high school. And, um, he—I used to watch Elgin Baylor practice because, before he went to Spingarn, he went to Phelps.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And they didn't have a gym.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And they used to have to travel everyday from Phelps all the way to Kelly Miller to practice basketball.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And that's to—

Oloye Adeyemon: They didn't even have a White school [crosstalk 29:17].

William B. Jr: Of course. Some of 'em had swimmin' pools.

Oloye Adeyemon: But despite that obstacle, um, [crosstalk 29:22].

William B. Jr: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So they would come out and practice, uh, and-and we used to watch 'em, when I was going to Kelly Miller, [unintelligible 29:29] practice. Some of the other, um, Afro-American high schools had, uh, gyms, but Phelps didn't have one, and then he trained with the coach, uh, Dave Brown was transferred to Spingarn, he transferred to Spingarn too.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did, uh, there were integrated games?

William B. Jr: Oh, no. I attended the first integrated basketball game when I was in the 10th grade, and that was between Spingarn High School and John Carroll High School. That's the school that John Thompson later went to, but it was a White school, Catholic school, and so black school 30:01.

Oloye Adeyemon: So you-you integrated sports between public school [unintelligible 30:05].

William B. Jr: No.

Oloye Adeyemon: But the Catholic school integrated.

William B. Jr: Yeah. That was the first school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that—that was in––there on that 30:09 too?

William B. Jr: Yeah. Exactly.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 30:11].

William B. Jr: No. No. No.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, uh, it sounds as if, uh, from your experience, the schools were good and you felt good about your education.

William B. Jr: Well, let me tell you—

Oloye Adeyemon: But you just didn't feel good about the situation.

William B. Jr: Yeah. Yeah. Let me tell you why, and let me tell you somethin'. Some of my junior high school teachers and later my high school teachers became college professors and, uh, at a later time, but they had to wait 'til someone moved on, and—

Oloye Adeyemon: Some of them had master's at that time.

William B. Jr: Master's? A lot of 'em had PhDs.

Oloye Adeyemon: And were teaching school 'cause that's all the—public schools 'cause that's all—

William B. Jr: I had in my high school, two members of the athletic department, so-so they PhDs. One had a PhD from Springfield.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: That school. They had and they were goin' to some-some of the, uh, teachers—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 31:03].

William B. Jr: Yeah. Uh, some of the teachers would go study in France and Germany if they were, uh, uh dealin' with a language. And they had a lot, and a lot of them later became professors at Howard.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: And so we had great teachers, great disciplinarians. And they—but they couldn't be—and if-if the system had been fair, they would have had, uh, jobs in the state department and other places like that. But-but because of their color, they had to teach school.

Oloye Adeyemon: And so in your relationship with Spottswood, would you be able to speak for how he felt about the education he received?

William B. Jr: He thought it was an excellent education. We all did.

Oloye Adeyemon: But all of you would have—would-would—

William B. Jr: We would never say—

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 31:46]—

William B. Jr: No.

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 31:47]—

William B. Jr: We would not have changed our education system.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

William B. Jr: But we didn't wanna be second class citizens.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

William B. Jr: And that's the difference.

Oloye Adeyemon: And that was partly what resulted after you graduated but also in the resources that were made available to you.

William B. Jr: We made it in spite of.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I understand.

William B. Jr: Yeah. So we didn't have the resources that, uh, uh, the other schools had.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you didn't have opportunities when you graduated as well.

William B. Jr: Uh, no. No. Not when we graduated.

Oloye Adeyemon: How much change do you think took place, uh, when did you graduate from high school?

William B. Jr: 1957.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, did you see any change in the school system during those two years after the Supreme Court decision?

William B. Jr: Well they began to integrate, and, uh, teams began to play, and as this—and a lot of Whites began to move out of the city, and-and the schools became more and more Afro-American.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now when you say integrate, some Blacks went to White schools. Whites didn't come to Black schools during that year [unintelligible 32:43].

William B. Jr: There was one White female that came to Spingarn, stayed for two weeks and left. For what reason? I don't know.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did the teaching staff integrate after the Supreme Court case?

William B. Jr: I never had a White teacher until I went to college.

Oloye Adeyemon: Is there anything that you would like to, uh, say in closing? Uh, your feelings about the education system? Your feelings about the importance of the case?

William B. Jr: Well I would like to say that Sarah Bolling, Gardner Bishop, Sr., and those people made a great contribution to the city of Washington and to the country at large by putting their kids on the line to integrate schools because that wasn't an easy thing, and everybody was against it. And they were pioneers, and they led, and they instilled in their kids as did the teachers. For example, I was involved in the civil rights movement in Maryland State College, but I had learned about it from high school. I learned about it from junior high. These people were giants. They were legends in their own time. And I was privileged to be taught by them, and I was privileged to know them. And I did my student teachin' at Spingarn after I got the [unintelligible 34:12].

And I have no regrets about the people who taught me, but I-I have regrets about this country in terms of what it does and has done to people in terms of dealing with race. Um, I think every person should-should have the same opportunity to move forward, be Black, be Asian, Italian, whatever. And we have to get away from it. We've come a long way, but we have still not reached the finish line. Martin Luther King did a lot of things, and there are things that still need to be done.

And this was a part of the educational system, and it was instilled in us, and we will always have it. And I'm proud to have gone to the schools in the District of Columbia. I'm proud to have known Sarah Bolling, and I'm proud that Spottswood Bolling was a very close personal friend of mine. And the only thing, I don't think Spotts ever got his due in terms of position that he holds in history, nor did his mother. And I think—

Oloye Adeyemon: I understand his mother was very influential.

William B. Jr: Yes, she was. Yes, she was. A very eloquent lady.

Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you so much.

William B. Jr: [Unintelligible 35:24].