Oral History Interview with Nathanial Briggs Pt 1

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH NATHANIAL BRIGGS
AUGUST 1, 2001
INTERVIEWED BY OLOYE ADEYEMON
The transcript below corresponds to the media embedded on this page
BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

EDITORIAL NOTICE

The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. Due to the sensitive nature of the interview, it may contain inflammatory language that some find offensive. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition.

ABSTRACT

Nathaniel Briggs was born in Summerton, South Carolina on October 29, 1947. His parents, Harry and Eliza (Campbell) Briggs were also born in Summerton. Harry and Eliza had children Harry Jr., Thomas, Catherine, Nathaniel, and Willy. All three of Nathaniel’s older siblings graduated from Scott’s Branch in Summerton. Nathaniel attended Scott’s Branch School through most of elementary school moving to Miami, Florida for two years followed by a return to Summerton/Scott’s Branch School for one school year (1961-1962). The family then moved to New York City where Nathaniel graduated from high school. Following Vietnam, Briggs joined the Ford Motor Company in New Jersey. Nathaniel is married to Octavia (Hilton) Briggs, also from Summerton, South Carolina.

Nathaniel’s father, Harry, was a part-time farmer and a gas station attendant in Summerton and mother Eliza was a maid at a Summerton motel. Prior to the opening of Interstate 95 in 1960, Highway 301, which ran directly through Summerton was a frequent stop for travelers from New York City to Miami, Florida as Summerton was known as midway point from either destination. Following the filing of Briggs v. Elliott, Harry Briggs, Sr. lost his job but his mother Eliza, who was employed by a Jewish motelier, kept her position. This interview provides keen insight into the life of an original plaintiff’s son and the challenges faced by family members following the filing of Briggs v. Elliott.

Persons mentioned: Harry and Eliza Briggs, Harry Jr., Thomas, Catherine and Willy Briggs, Octavia Briggs, Mitchell Reagan, and Anna Gibson.

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Transcript

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 00:04]. Brown v. Board Oral History Collection; Briggs v. Elliott court case interviews. Interviewee, Mr. Nathaniel Briggs. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon from the National Park Service. Interview conducted in the home of Mr. Briggs in Teaneck, New Jersey on August 1, 2001. These interviews were made possible through the Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site Oral History Project. Mr. Briggs, what is your full name? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Nathanial Briggs. Oloye Adeyemon: And when is your birthday? Nathaniel Briggs: October 29, 1947. Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born? Nathaniel Briggs: Summerton, South Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: And what-what were your parents' names? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Harry Briggs and Eliza Campbell 01:10 Briggs. Oloye Adeyemon: And where were they born? Nathaniel Briggs: Summerton, South Carolina, Clarendon County. Oloye Adeyemon: And what were their occupations? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, my mother worked as a maid for a hotel, and my father was at—during that particular time, was a gas station attendee and a small farmer. Oloye Adeyemon: And before that, what did he do? Before-before that period—you-you-you say that period, do you mean the period before this? Nathaniel Briggs: Prior to the court case, uh, father w-was a farmer. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. The—did either of their families own land? Nathaniel Briggs: My grandmother on my mother's side owned her own land. Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your occupation? Nathaniel Briggs: I work for the Ford Motor Company, um, inspectin'. Oloye Adeyemon: And that's here in New Jersey? Nathaniel Briggs: In New Jersey. Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: And are you married? Nathaniel Briggs: Married. My wife Octavia and-and two children. Oloye Adeyemon: What is her maiden name? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Hilton, Octavia Hilton. Oloye Adeyemon: Is she also from Summerton, South Carolina? Nathaniel Briggs: Summerton, South Carolina. Her parents are also from Summerton, South Carolina. And her father and parts of her family signed the original document. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. The—you-you were born in Summerton. You also went to school in Summerton? Nathaniel Briggs: I went to school up until the sixth grade in Summerton. Oloye Adeyemon: And then where did you go to school? Nathaniel Briggs: Then, during the, uh, case of, uh, 1954, we wind up movin' to Miami, Florida. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And how long did you live there? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, for two years. And the Cuban Crisis hit, and the-the work was scarce, and we wind up movin' back from Miami, Florida to South Carolina for a year, and then moved to New York. Oloye Adeyemon: So where did you graduate from high school? Nathaniel Briggs: New York City. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So what years did you go to school in Summerton the second time you were there? Nathaniel Briggs: Um, '61, '62 and then New York. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Got it. And what grade were you in at the time when you came back to Summerton? Nathaniel Briggs: Sixth grade. Yep. Oloye Adeyemon: The sixth grade? Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: And after graduating in New York, what did you do? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, military, Vietnam, and back to work at Ford Motor Company. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. You had started at Ford before you went to Vietnam? Nathaniel Briggs: No. No, I— Oloye Adeyemon: You came back to work at Ford— Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - and you've been here ever since? Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And during that period of time, uh, were your brothers and sisters also in school? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, in New York City School System? Oloye Adeyemon: No, in Summerton. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Did you have any brothers and sisters in [crosstalk 03:54]? Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, my older brother, Harry—th-th-they graduated from Scott's Branch High. My-my, uh, second older brother, Thomas, he graduated from Scott's Branch. And my sister, Catherine 04:04, also graduated from Scott's Branch. Oloye Adeyemon: So there's four of you? Nathaniel Briggs: And another—there's five. An-another brother, Willy, he-he graduated school in New York City. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So he was younger. Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. Well, he's a year older than I-I am. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, uh, your father was, uh, one of the petitioners. And before we talk about what you remember about the case, uh, I want to, uh, go back. You mentioned that your mother, uh, worked in a hotel. Uh, can you tell me, uh, what you know about the earlier period of, say, early 1900s, as far as Summerton being a resort city for people leavin' New York and goin' to Florida? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, my-my recollection a-as a kid is that, um, Summerton was in the area where the main highway, which is 301, came directly through Summerton. And that-that was—Summerton is halfway point between New York City and Miami, Florida. Oloye Adeyemon: Now at that time, there was no a-no a [unintelligible 05:18]. Nathaniel Briggs: No, just a, uh—State Highway 301. And-and they had a lotta hotels alo-along that particular drive. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now, it-it-it may not have been something, you know, was, uh, obvious at that time, as it was—perhaps you can tell me as a young person, what you saw. But was it the case that there had been a [background noise 05:52] by the '40s in terms of the-the significance of Summerton as a resort city in comparison to what it had been, say, 50 years or 40 years before? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, no. As far as a resort, uh, I-I don't—because my age, I don't know— Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 00:06:12]. Nathaniel Briggs: - anything about that part of Summerton bein' a resort town. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. But there's-there were still in the '40s, during that period—or the '50s, I guess. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: There still were a lot of hotels. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: You'd stop a lot comin' from New York. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, maybe because of the lake that's there, Summerton probably was as a restin' point because of—on the north side the lake, Summerton was the only, probably, commer-commercial town on-on that particular area of, uh, Clarendon County. And, uh, 301 brought people through there and across-across the [unintelligible 06:45] lake. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, you mentioned that your father, uh, worked at a gas station. Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, what was that—what was the name of that gas station? Do you remember? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, S—at that time, brand was, uh, Sinclair Gas Station. Oloye Adeyemon: It was called Sinclair Gas Station? And where was it located? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, in the town of Summerton. Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember— Nathaniel Briggs: [Crosstalk 07:09] Oloye Adeyemon: - what intersection? Nathaniel Briggs: Um, um, I'm tryin' to remember the proper, uh—[unintelligible 07:20] right across from the Piggly Wiggly card st—uh, hardware store. Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: N-now there's a Piggly Wiggly, uh, grocery store. Is that where the hardware store once was? Nathaniel Briggs: There's a hardware store right next to— Oloye Adeyemon: Right next to— Nathaniel Briggs: - that. Oloye Adeyemon: - that. Okay. So it was right there where that intersection, uh—Jim Bob's—there was a gas station right there? Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Which corner? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, it would be the north, uh-uh, northwest corner. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, good. And this, uh, gas station, wh—do you remember the owner's name? Nathaniel Briggs: No, I don't. I was too young. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. But, um, he-he was-he was a White owner of the gas— Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. Oloye Adeyemon: - station? And how long had he worked there? Do you know about when he started? Nathaniel Briggs: Um, no. I-I-I—when I grew up, I knew he—that's wh—part of the work that he did. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And how far back do your memories go? Because they started working on this in '49, so, you know, at what age— Nathaniel Briggs: Let me date myself. Oloye Adeyemon: Oh— Nathaniel Briggs: I'm-I'm 53, so— Oloye Adeyemon: What— Nathaniel Briggs: - fou—1947, so— Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So you were very young— Nathaniel Briggs: At the start of this case. Oloye Adeyemon: - at the start of this case. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: Was he still working there in your—y-you remember him working? Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, he's still working at that time. Oloye Adeyemon: So he did not get fired immediately from the job? Nathaniel Briggs: Well, i-it's '50—'49—immediately—um, no, not immediately. I-I think when-when they got fired was when the name that appeared to the public—whose name was on the petition—probably, hmm— Oloye Adeyemon: You couldn't have been more than four— Nathaniel Briggs: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: - or five. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, uh, but-but being the youngest you hear— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Yeah. Nathaniel Briggs: - people talkin' about— Oloye Adeyemon: But you do remember him working at the gas— Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So when—now, let's go back to things you heard because I wanna go back as early as possible in terms of things you heard maybe later from him— Nathaniel Briggs: Okay. Oloye Adeyemon: - and your brothers and sisters and from others. What is your understanding of how he got involved? Nathaniel Briggs: Um, that the, uh, kids that live out-out of town—that was in a mile—two, three miles from school—they had to walk to school. My understanding is that when he got involved was that the petition came around, and he had—some of his family filled it, uh, for—out in the country. They-they had to walk to school. So the petition came ar—I think it really s—came around out of the St. Mark church—uh, he was a member of that particular church, and his parents were—but that it was automatic that he participated in-in signing the petition. Oloye Adeyemon: Wh—in terms of your own family, how far did you have to walk? Nathaniel Briggs: Oh, we only had to walk, um—10 minutes, we'd-we'd be at the school. Oloye Adeyemon: So when he did this, he did this— Nathaniel Briggs: Basically— Oloye Adeyemon: For-for others. He was— Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - not just c-considering himself. He was qualified because he had children in the— Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - system, but—and I-and I understand that there were a lotta people who were afraid to sign and there, also, were a lotta people who, uh, some of the leaders of the petition movement urged not to sign, either because they were connected to the schools, or they were working on someone else's property, and they were—they didn't want these people to have to— Nathaniel Briggs: Move. Oloye Adeyemon: - move or-or suffer in other ways. So there was some people that wanted to sign that were told not to, and there were others who didn't wanna sign. Would you say, based on what's been told to you, that, uh, there were definitely risks that your father was taking to sign and that he— Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, b-because whe-when you're in a small, segregated community as a Summerton—as I look back now—there was a risk to everybody who signed. I mean, there's—your economic d-d-d-depends on the-on the power elite of that particular county at that particular time. And if you sign, you know there's consequence to be paid. And they all-they all knew the consequence to be paid. Uh, and they banded together [unintelligible 11:48]. Oloye Adeyemon: And he—even though he did not, himself, have children that were having to walk that distance, he was willing to take that risk for others. Nathaniel Briggs: For others and— Oloye Adeyemon: And in some cases, for some people that might've been afraid, themselves, to even sign. Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Did you ever, uh—I-I understand he obviously was prepared to do that, but did he ever, himself, um, say anything about that decision, just about havin' to make that choice? Was it a choice he had to think about? Was it, you know—had he—did he have a plan just in case, uh, there were repercussions? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I—i-if it was talked about, it was probably between, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 00:12:36]. Nathaniel Briggs: - his—yeah, they—his mother and-and, uh, his father and his—h—you know, his whole, immediate family. Oloye Adeyemon: As a child, did you ever get the feeling that there was any concern for the safety of the family? 'Cause there were obviously economic repercussions, but, um, I'm sure that, you know, there were at least threats, if not direct violence. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-uh, I remember a-as a child, you know, you-you liked to play through the window. And during this particular time of, uh—before the DeLaine houses got burned down, we was told—or I was told to stay away from the window at night because, you know, we didn't actually know what was gonna happen. Um, that's how, um, touchy the situation was during the '50s. And, um, that's only-only part that I we was warned about. And that we just couldn't go any and everywhere in town. Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. Um, I heard that there were, uh, a lotta threats against DeLaine and that some of the men in the community actually protected his house. Do you know anything about that? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-uh, that time, I-w-I-was-I was too young to know who was the protectors. That thing called an underground railroad i-is probably—was alive and well. It would probably still exist today, but it worked then. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: And, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Had you heard that there were people that were protecting his house at night? Nathaniel Briggs: Um, uh-uh, no, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Not who they were but just that it had-had— Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - happened. Okay. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Um, but surprisingly, to know that I had to walk past the DeLaine's house on my way to school every morning— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: - and as, uh-uh, as a second, third grader, you walked past a brick house and, all of a sudden, one morning you walk past this house, and all you see left was two chimneys standing. Oloye Adeyemon: So you-you were there the next day after the fire? Nathaniel Briggs: Physically, yeah. Phy—I saw it [crosstalk 14:32]. Oloye Adeyemon: Do you know if there was a resident across the street from the school? Nathaniel Briggs: Directly across the street? Probably 500 yards. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, at the point that it was burned, he was in Lake City himself, right? Nathaniel Briggs: Wow. Oloye Adeyemon: He had-he had gone up there to, um—the AME church had reassigned him to Lake City just prior to that. Nathaniel Briggs: Now, that I-I can't, because, again, I'm-I'm-I'm speaking of, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: New York. Nathaniel Briggs: - of-of, uh, yeah, of a set-set of [unintelligible 14:55]. Oloye Adeyemon: So, going back, uh, what were the-what were the hardships that your father suffered as a result of being a part of the case that you're aware of? Nathaniel Briggs: Well, first of all, he-he got, uh, let—uh, got fired from his job as a gas station attendant. And he decided to, uh, t—try farming. Um, my, uh-uh, grandparents had land, so he tried to farm and—uh, I'll [unintelligible 15:28] for the prime example; if a bale of cotton—when they fall—um, if a bale of cotton went for $100 at that particular time, he was probably offered $50 for that same bale of cotton because of— Oloye Adeyemon: Because he was a person— Nathaniel Briggs: - Harry Briggs. Um, that went on for-for-for a couple years and, at one point, that—[snapping] we couldn't sustain a livin' anymore. Um-um, so, we wind up movin' to Florida shortly—we, uh—and he—well, he went to Florida back in '58, so— Oloye Adeyemon: Now, help me understand, if you can—and I hope to talk with some of your own brothers and sisters, possibly. But help me understand, if you can, why there were some people—who were involved with the case—who were run out of town even earlier than that. Why was it that he was able to sustain himself as long as he did? Nathaniel Briggs: Um, lookin' back, I-I would think, um, he—I think he had financial help from-from his parents. Um, they-they also worked for-for-for White people and lived on White people land. But she was a strong, churchgoin' lady. She was strong-strong Christian, so that-that made 'em s—have stability there in Summerton. Oloye Adeyemon: Did he have a large family? Nathaniel Briggs: My father? He was an only child, so that—it's not that, um, that—I think that helped to sustain him quite a bit. Oloye Adeyemon: How much support did he have from the community itself? 'Cause, again, he had taken a risk for others. Did-did others, kind of, help support— Nathaniel Briggs: I think, in that time, there's more—and not financial—like a bartering, you know, "Wh-what you need that—what we got, we can exchange— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Nathaniel Briggs: - to-to—" Oloye Adeyemon: So other people in the community definitely, uh— Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - supported— Nathaniel Briggs: At the-at the time, to slaughter, uh-uh-uh-uh livestock and to-to—friends and family would come along and slaughter livestock. When you have something, everybody will have something. Uh, in that respect, when we ate—you know, if it was food—we had gardens—we ate. We didn't starve. We had our own house. Maybe because we were, uh, blessed that— Oloye Adeyemon: You said you had your own house. You owned your own house. Nathaniel Briggs: They owned their own house so, in that respect, we was kinda—we were stable enough to sustain some of that. Oloye Adeyemon: So that might've been a factor because so many people didn't own their own homes— Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - and when they got put off the property, they d—so, one of the things that might've helped him was the fact they couldn't put him out of his house. Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. Oloye Adeyemon: Y-you said that he was a member of St. Mark's church? Nathaniel Briggs: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember who the minister was during this time? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Reverend Seals. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Do you—can you tell me anything about Reverend Seals work in the school? Nathaniel Briggs: Um, he was one of the-one of the, uh, ministers that, uh, that signed the petition also. Uh, Reverend DeLaine was-was the second one. And, uh, they, uh—through-through they churches, s-spearhead the—helped spearhead the, uh, the-the petitions and, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Did you know of any meetings that occurred at St. Marks? Nathaniel Briggs: Quite a few meetings. A-again, I was young—to-to know that something was going on here that wasn't a Sunday service. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: - and, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: So this would happen after Sunday service? Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, or some-sometimes right, um, during Sunday services, so they can, uh, c-communicate with-with folks during Sunday service. Oloye Adeyemon: I know, again, you were young, but it seems to me that Thurgood Marshall came to St. Mark's church at one time. Nathaniel Briggs: He probably did. Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Do—you don't remember seeing him? Nathaniel Briggs: I don't remember seeing him there. Uh—um, you knew when somebody of that stature ca-came to town something was goin' on, 'cause people would start to dress up, people start— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: - that, uh, um—during that time, everybody wore white. I mean, I don't know why, but that's-that's what part of the dress code was. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. For church? Nathaniel Briggs: For church. Oloye Adeyemon: So when the case actually went to trial—you know, the d—w—it lost—how much were you aware of what happened between that point and the Supreme Court decision? Were you aware, at some point, that the Supreme Court decision had been d—was that something that you remember being told, or was there any talk about that at the time in 1954, the Supreme Court decision? Nathaniel Briggs: Th-th-th-that's somethin'—you as-you asked me the question before, wh-what helped sustain my-my-my father from not havin' to leave town. Uh, I think my mother was employed. She al—have always worked— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: - for the, um— Oloye Adeyemon: She was not fired? Nathaniel Briggs: Sh-she was not fired. I-I don't wanna blame it on—maybe because she-sh-sh-she worked for a Jewish gentleman— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: - uh, and it—and that situation probably didn't affect him as-as the rest of the people in town, so— Oloye Adeyemon: Do you happen to know, uh, what the name of that hotel was, by any chance? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Summerton Motel, I think. Oloye Adeyemon: And do you happen to remember where it's located? Nathaniel Briggs: On 301, on the south end of town. Oloye Adeyemon: On 301? Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: And you don't happen to remember the owners name? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Greenberg, I think. Oloye Adeyemon: So even though it might've been indirect, would you say that he in a sense, uh—was supported by not—uh, 'cause I'm sure there may have been other people that may have even approached him— Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah— Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 21:24]. Nathaniel Briggs: - I-I-I would— Oloye Adeyemon: - firin' him. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. I would imagine that he was approached but, um, she kept workin', so— Oloye Adeyemon: You assume— Nathaniel Briggs: - I-I assume that— Oloye Adeyemon: He was— Nathaniel Briggs: [Crosstalk 21:32]. Oloye Adeyemon: - somewhat supportive. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, or— Oloye Adeyemon: Or at least sympathetic. Nathaniel Briggs: - sympathetic. Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: That's good. So, uh—but I appreciate you addin' that 'cause that's important. Nathaniel Briggs: I-I figured if it affect some Black folks, well, it-it affect s-some of the Jewish, uh, people of-of that particular town. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. I understand. So, going back, uh—and-and-and just on that note, I understand that early on, uh, because of the business and whatnot, uh, there were, uh, businessmen in the Summerton area, included such groups as Lebanese and others. I don't know if you were, you know, familiar with that, but I'm-I'm saying that because a lot of areas at that time, the South did not have a lot of Jewish businesses. And I'm wondering if it was because of the number of, uh, Jewish people that would've been leaving New York and going to Florida and stopping. They might've made this a place where they could have worked in the south. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, probably somethin'—that probably would be the history that-that I can't answer. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. We'll have to do further research, but that's an interesting thing because up until this point, it's never come up. But that, in itself, uh, would need to be looked into with—you know, because, uh, Florida changed the law because of the Jewish people not able to go there 'cause— Nathanial Briggs: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - the hotels wouldn't receive them, then they bought the hotels. And, so, if they bought hotels in Florida to be able to go there, then it makes sense that they would buy hotels in Summerton, which is the midway point— Nathaniel Briggs: Along the way. Oloye Adeyemon: - and I can imagine that although there may have been, uh, plantations that didn't like that, you know-you know, presence, they probably benefitted in some way and just, you know, accepted, because the economy tie, you know, so that's gonna be interesting. But getting back— Nathaniel Briggs: If-if that Black farm was trailed from south to north then it-it—probably, it was a Jewish trail from north to the south— Oloye Adeyemon: Good point. Nathaniel Briggs: - so it-it's-it's that much. Oloye Adeyemon: [Laughter] That's a good point. Um, so, I-I wanna get back, um, to, um, a few, uh, small things that you may be able to help with. We were—I was about to ask you, uh, if you were aware—I guess you woulda been about six or seven but—when the Supreme Court case was decided, either in church or at home, what-wh—do you remember there being a reaction at that time that you'd be [unintelligible 24:19]? Nathaniel Briggs: If I'm not mistaken, it was—they have a celebration. I think it was around May Day. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, they call it May Day, and we all dressed in—as kids, dressed in white, and we-we played out—and we-we did some, uh, activities out in the, uh, the schoolyard that they—it's f-f-festivities, uh, [unintelligible 24:42]— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathanial Briggs: - in May. Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, it happened on May 17th, so would this have happened a year after as a-as a commemoration, or do you—are you sayin' that— Nathaniel Briggs: Um— Oloye Adeyemon: - there was somethin' done in '54— Nathaniel Briggs: - it-it was probably— Oloye Adeyemon: - to celebrate? Nathaniel Briggs: - it was probably the—lookin' back, it was probably done the year after. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Nathaniel Briggs: I remember they-they celebrated May for a number of years— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. [Unintelligible 25:02]. Nathaniel Briggs: - um, uh, festive about May Day and— Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was this just St. Mark's church or the county in general? Nathaniel Briggs: We did it at the-the Black, um, Scott's Branch, uh, school at— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Nathaniel Briggs: - one particular time. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Nathaniel Briggs: And, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Which was still segregated. Nathaniel Briggs: Still segregated. Oloye Adeyemon: But there was a celebration. Nathaniel Briggs: Celebration. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Um, and everybody was happy—teachers and everybody— even those who didn't sign the petition? Nathaniel Briggs: I assume they was happy, you know, 'cause they looked so—those who-who, uh, who was still hired, 'cause there were some teachers as far as—th-they never got their job back. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: A particular one is, uh, Mr. Mitchell Reagan 00:25:39, which never got his job back. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, he actually signed the petition? Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, I heard that he was—they-they urged him not to. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: - and he said, "I'm gonna do it, anyhow." Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Some folks risked it all. I mean— Oloye Adeyemon: I guess the reason I'm asking is because even though the, uh, school was a Black school, it's under a White ministry. And I just wonder how easy it was for the Black teachers and principal to host such a celebration at that time when the county is still—I mean, as I understand it, it wasn't 'til after the case was decided they burned DeLaine's house down. So it would seem, uh, to me that the Whites are still resenting this, and-and how was it, do you think, that they were able to do that at school? Nathaniel Briggs: I-I think that they-they do it in a disguise, that when they say, "May Day", it was, uh, maybe celebratin' the new crop. Oloye Adeyemon: [Laughter] Okay. Nathaniel Briggs: So, in that respect, it was just, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: That may be why it was called "May Day". Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Okay. So we—you do remember that happenin'. Were you aware that the Supreme Court decision had been rendered? Nathaniel Briggs: Um— Oloye Adeyemon: Did you ever hear anybody talkin' about it? Nathaniel Briggs: I-I knew a-a-at a young age that something was goin' on. I couldn't tell you whether it was Supreme Court—[unintelligible 27:04]. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Were there any other things that you remember that we haven't talked about, that occurred during this period, when the case was either being compared, or it had gone to trial and-and lost in South Carolina. And then goin' [background noise 27:25]? You know, because of your age, there's certain details you might not have, but is there anything-anything else you can remember, uh, o-of what might have happened to someone else other than your family members that you heard about or saw? Anything else connected to the case that you remember? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-uh, w—um, my godmother's Anna Gibson 00:27:45. She also worked at the— Oloye Adeyemon: She was a petitioner, as well? Nathaniel Briggs: Correct—at-at the Black high school. And, uh, my wife's mother, uh, Senovia Hilton, uh, she also worked at-at-at the high school in-in the, uh-uh, kitchen. They-they also got, uh—she-she got fired. Uh, that-that case, it was-it was, uh, those who dared to sign and dared to risk it all, well, they—th-they paid that price. They paid every price. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathanial Briggs: Um-um, so, Anna Gibson, without a husband, the only s—mean of, uh, makin' a living was to serve food at the high school or-or-or Scott's Branch at the time. Well she refused to take her name off and, lo and behold, without a job or any support, since her husband was dead, she still f-f—held out and didn't take her name off. So there-there is valor in that struggle. Oloye Adeyemon: Absolutely. And even though it seemed—I was-I was actually a little surprised because, uh, the Whites felt so strongly. Uh, th-they resisted it so strongly. I'm surprised there wasn't more violence. But when the people signed it, they didn't know, uh, what repercussions might've been taken—the economic ones taken—but they didn't—they had no way of knowin' that their houses wouldn't be, uh, burned, that they wouldn't be shot at, you know? I mean, this is-this is incredible courage that they had. Nathaniel Briggs: I-I think, uh, in the south, this is, uh, probably the first time the-the rule of law and the rule of power have ever been challenged. Oloye Adeyemon: I think so. Nathaniel Briggs: And they—the petitioners didn't know that— Oloye Adeyemon: What was gonna come from that. Nathaniel Briggs: - what was gonna happen. Th-they had thought that by—since some of them is, uh, and [unintelligible 29:40] community, where they had more gin houses than they had banks. Uh, more—uh, probably more gin houses than they had churches— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: - so you know what kind of rural community— Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 29:50] you mean cotton gin houses? Nathaniel Briggs: Yes. And it-it was just a rural community of just-just farmers. Um, people had thought that since we worked for—those who worked for-for the White farmers, that what they asked for they would be gettin'. 'Cause if they needed a pair of shoes, they can go to the [Unintelligible 30:10] commissary and sign off and-and get that. Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: And then have the-the money that they would be paid for their crop taken— Nathaniel Briggs: Taken— Oloye Adeyemon: - to pay for these shoes that were overpriced. Nathaniel Briggs: I remember certain stores, th-this little place called the commissary where people could go who work for-for White folks, and you can go and sign off for shoes or whatever. Well, White folk told us that places like that, I couldn't go. You know, you—I wasn't allowed to go in them stores maybe 'cause the attitude of the-of the owner. Oloye Adeyemon: Was it the case, also, at those p—those, uh—that merchandise was overpriced? Nathaniel Briggs: Probably so. But, uh, I guess, I don't—at-at a particular time, who owned that particular business, my father probably knew that this-this guy was definitely against the-the petitioners. Oloye Adeyemon: And in most cases, is it not true that some of the people who owned these commiss—these-these commissaries also were the people you would bring the cotton to? Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. Oloye Adeyemon: That they a—actually, it was all one— Nathaniel Briggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - operation. Nathaniel Briggs: One family, yeah. Um, and as a kid, you s—your father said, "Don't do that," and guess what? I had to sneak in there one day and— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh oh. Nathaniel Briggs: - and got to [crosstalk 31:12]— Oloye Adeyemon: Got to find out. Nathaniel Briggs: - and-and it was a nasty—very nasty—experience, and I've never went back. Oloye Adeyemon: Would you share that experience with us? Nathaniel Briggs: Well, he just talked to you like, you know, like— Oloye Adeyemon: Was this because you were a Briggs tryin'—did he know who you were? Nathaniel Briggs: I don't think-I don't think they knew who I was because— Oloye Adeyemon: This is just general behavior. Nathaniel Briggs: - the-the-the fact that I was a newspaper boy and my brother knew him-newspaper boy in town, and we had to deliver newspaper to White—everybody, community. Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 31:35]. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, it's—it was two newspaper. It was called, uh, during the Boy Scout was called The Grit— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nathaniel Briggs: - and the—later was the Charleston Evening Post we'd-we delivered through uptown. But m-most folks d-didn't know I was Harry and Eliza's son. You know, uh, they—White people just leave the money out there in the envelope. You know, you just never go get-get their money. So that-that part of the experience of ridin' through town and see how, uh, White folks live and how Black folks live, it's-it's a big experience. Pro—it still ex-exists today. Oloye Adeyemon: So when you went into this commissary, what happened? Nathaniel Briggs: Um, you was just treated badly and-and called names. Uh, but I just never went back. I mean, I-I just took it—I couldn't tell my father. I didn't tell nobody. I wasn't supposed to be there. Uh, but I never-I never went-went back there. Oloye Adeyemon: So all of this is-is-is part of what it is that people are wanting to see a change in. It just wasn't schools. It was the whole condition that they had to live with. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, it was-it was for a school bus. It wasn't for a movement or for rights. It started as a school bus. Uh, once the NACP [unintelligible 32:59] got-got involved, th-th-this went from school bus to just-just human rights. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, 'cause people began to-to understand. They had encouragement too. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. I-I just didn't think that-that—they didn't know so—Clarendon County was so bad. I think a lot of folks didn't even know there was—they had human rights problems. They thought that just that's the way it was. That's the way it is. And, um, the-the-the lawyers came in and-and the ministers stayed on board to encourage people, uh, this is not the way it-it is. Oloye Adeyemon: So I wanna go back to one thing. I don't know if you can help me with this. There were three petitions. There was one that was for equalization that was strung out in court in Charleston before it went to trial. Then there was the second petition preparing for the case, and I understand there may have been up to 104 that signed it, and Thurgood Marshall came in and said, "I just want 20." Your father was one of the final 20. Are you aware of those other petitions and who signed them? Nathaniel Briggs: No, I-I would l-love to, uh, get a hold of that-that particular person. Oloye Adeyemon: We're workin' on it. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: That's part of what we're tryin' to, uh, piece together. We've got a lot of it, but we're tryin' to get all that together. Nathaniel Briggs: If they can get it with Vietnam War with all the signatures down in Washington, I-I would love to— Oloye Adeyemon: Love to see the written— Nathaniel Briggs: - see that— Oloye Adeyemon: - signatures— Nathaniel Briggs: - same wall in-in freakin' Clarendon County, South Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: in South Cl—that's a good point. And that might be something that will not be that difficult to do. It might be hard—I mean, there could be a building built, but because the original school of Scott's Branch is gone, uh, that might be something that— Nathaniel Briggs: [Unintelligible 34:43] that— Oloye Adeyemon: -would-would be— Nathaniel Briggs: - particular goal. Oloye Adeyemon: And also some kind of a marker with the names of all the people and a little explanation 'cause I'm getting bits and pieces of this but, you know, I don't think it's really fully understood the stages that-that Brigg's-Brigg's case went through. The, um, fed— Nathaniel Briggs: The, um, fed—is—there's-there's some teachers that-that ultimately paid that price. Uh, those teachers are-are not in a, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: The ones that got fired, you mean? Nathaniel Briggs: Got fired, mm-hmm. It's just a sad case that the—even the Teacher's Association havin' to, uh, [crosstalk 35:19]— Oloye Adeyemon: Havin' it now. Nathaniel Briggs: - havin' it now. Oloye Adeyemon: It's true-it's true. Good point. Uh, in closing, uh, this part of the interview, what do you feel about, uh—let me back-back up and say—as best you can, uh, how do you feel your father—how do you think your father would feel about what resulted from the sacrifice he made? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I would think daddy would—and my-and my mother—would—w-would say, "There's still work to be done, number one." I mean, the-the issues are still pressin'. I-I-I would think—I've never really thought about what he would say. But I think he would be kind of pleased that, um, that the-the—s-some of the state and federal money has gotten down to the-to the place where they originally thought it—the money should-should be. Oloye Adeyemon: You're talking about an education in Summerton itself. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, um, s— Oloye Adeyemon: Is that what you mean? Nathaniel Briggs: Tryin' to get—try to equalize some of the state funding for the county of Clarendon County, uh, since it's probably still goin' to poorest community—poorest county—in the state; that it almost took all these years and all these lives and all these, uh, people to even acknowledge that-that there's a need there in Clarendon County. Um, I would think he would be-be kind of pleased. Oloye Adeyemon: Do you think he would do it again? Nathaniel Briggs: Without a doubt. Um, both parents, without a doubt. Um, it's-it's-it's—if—it's probably satisfaction on his case that-that-that he-he did what was in his heart to do, even though it didn't aff-affect him or his children directly as far as walkin' to school. In the original case they get transportation. That's gonna give you all of it. Oloye Adeyemon: And what do-what do you feel are the areas where his work [fading voice 37:28]? Nathaniel Briggs: Um, once you establish history, and y-y-you did it, and-and now you need some type of-of booklet to let White and Blacks children in that particular county know that there was a struggle that took-took place there in Clarendon County. Part of that work needs to be done, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Well, you're contributing to that today— Nathaniel Briggs: Well, I'm— Oloye Adeyemon: - by sharing your story. Nathaniel Briggs: I'm happy to do that. Um, there is—if-if there's an encyclopedia of all the cases that took place back in the '50s, and the Southland is the lead case, that [unintelligible 38:12] need to be in those children's h-hands today. But if you get a-a—even a 10th grader in Clarendon County today— Oloye Adeyemon: Doesn't know what it is. Nathaniel Briggs: - don't know what it is. Oloye Adeyemon: That's right. Nathaniel Briggs: Or probably a 10th grader in Kansas that don't know what it is. Oloye Adeyemon: We've talked to, uh—we actually interviewed superintendents of schools and, uh, it is our intention to share this collection with some to—not just on South Carolina but around the whole country—and he's already indicated that, uh, once that's done, they're gonna look at incorporating it into the curriculum, so the children can learn it. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Well, I-I think somethin' that my father would say, "Well, we did all of that. Now, what happened to your Black school administrators? What happened to those folks that had a professional job there in town?" Oloye Adeyemon: The ones that had the jobs at that time? Nathaniel Briggs: At that particular time. Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause many of them were fired, right? Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Now, he would actually say, "Well, who's gonna see their children? Who's gonna educate their children? Who's gonna pay for their children's education?" That's-that's—I would think, he-he would, uh, say at the end of this, uh, "W-w-we did the job." 'Cause some folks are st-still hurt. I mean, uh, 'cause they— Oloye Adeyemon: I understand that [Unintelligible 39:21] Wells wa-Wells was the leader of the high school class that helped to galvanize things. And he was hit—they-they sent a false transcript, and he wasn't able to go to college. So, he was pres—past president at [unintelligible 39:34] school. Um, I really appreciate, you know, you taking the time to share with us the things you have. And I guess, now, I-I wanna know what do you feel about it? What do you feel about the education, uh, the children received there in Summerton? Uh, is there anything you would add to what you've seen; your own feelings? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I would—I don't know how this could come about, but I would love to-to, uh—if I'm standing at this particular imaginary fence, and there's no White counterpart standing right next-right next to me with his grands 40:22 or standing, and I'm standing right next to him, and he—we lookin' at the same area through a fence, and he can say, "Well, grandson, all this was ours," and he can feel proud in saying that. And I can only stand there and say, "Well, son, we don't have anything to show you. Why the struggle? They had all of this, and we have nothin' on the other hand." There's-there's— Oloye Adeyemon: You'd like to have somethin' to point to. Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Th-there seems to be that, uh-uh, there's—in-in B-in Black cases, the history is-is erased quickly. Oloye Adeyemon: Do you feel that Whites benefit from this, and if so, how? Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, no. I-I think th—to set people free there's—it has to be done on both sides, uh, from the-from the economic standpoint and from the human soul point. I-I think the majority of Whites in Clarendon County are not free, they're not safe. Oloye Adeyemon: But they could've—this-this-this-this story can actually help them in that way. Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, yes, it probably can, um, if it's done properly. Uh, it will help their grand 'cause it—I think you just don't-you just don't change, uh, [unintelligible 41:44]. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Well thank you very much for takin' this time. Nathaniel Briggs: Okay. Oloye Adeyemon: It's been very helpful. [End of Audio]

Duration:

42 minutes, 40 seconds

Nathaniel attended Scott’s Branch School through most of elementary school moving to Miami, Florida for two years followed by a return to Summerton/Scott’s Branch School for one school year (1961-1962). This interview provides keen insight into the life of an original plaintiff’s son and the challenges faced by family members following the filing of Briggs v. Elliott.

Brown v. Board of Education Oral Histories

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Oral History Interview with Nathanial Briggs Pt. 1

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 00:04]. Brown v. Board Oral History Collection; Briggs v. Elliott court case interviews. Interviewee, Mr. Nathaniel Briggs. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon from the National Park Service. Interview conducted in the home of Mr. Briggs in Teaneck, New Jersey on August 1, 2001. These interviews were made possible through the Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site Oral History Project. Mr. Briggs, what is your full name?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Nathanial Briggs.

Oloye Adeyemon: And when is your birthday?

Nathaniel Briggs: October 29, 1947.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born?

Nathaniel Briggs: Summerton, South Carolina.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what-what were your parents' names?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Harry Briggs and Eliza Campbell 01:10 Briggs.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where were they born?

Nathaniel Briggs: Summerton, South Carolina, Clarendon County.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what were their occupations?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, my mother worked as a maid for a hotel, and my father was at—during that particular time, was a gas station attendee and a small farmer.

Oloye Adeyemon: And before that, what did he do? Before-before that period—you-you-you say that period, do you mean the period before this?

Nathaniel Briggs: Prior to the court case, uh, father w-was a farmer.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. The—did either of their families own land?

Nathaniel Briggs: My grandmother on my mother's side owned her own land.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your occupation?

Nathaniel Briggs: I work for the Ford Motor Company, um, inspectin'.

Oloye Adeyemon: And that's here in New Jersey?

Nathaniel Briggs: In New Jersey. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: And are you married?

Nathaniel Briggs: Married. My wife Octavia and-and two children.

Oloye Adeyemon: What is her maiden name?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Hilton, Octavia Hilton.

Oloye Adeyemon: Is she also from Summerton, South Carolina?

Nathaniel Briggs: Summerton, South Carolina. Her parents are also from Summerton, South Carolina. And her father and parts of her family signed the original document.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. The—you-you were born in Summerton. You also went to school in Summerton?

Nathaniel Briggs: I went to school up until the sixth grade in Summerton.

Oloye Adeyemon: And then where did you go to school?

Nathaniel Briggs: Then, during the, uh, case of, uh, 1954, we wind up movin' to Miami, Florida.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And how long did you live there?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, for two years. And the Cuban Crisis hit, and the-the work was scarce, and we wind up movin' back from Miami, Florida to South Carolina for a year, and then moved to New York.

Oloye Adeyemon: So where did you graduate from high school?

Nathaniel Briggs: New York City.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So what years did you go to school in Summerton the second time you were there?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um, '61, '62 and then New York.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Got it. And what grade were you in at the time when you came back to Summerton?

Nathaniel Briggs: Sixth grade. Yep.

Oloye Adeyemon: The sixth grade?

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: And after graduating in New York, what did you do?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, military, Vietnam, and back to work at Ford Motor Company.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. You had started at Ford before you went to Vietnam?

Nathaniel Briggs: No. No, I—

Oloye Adeyemon: You came back to work at Ford—

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: - and you've been here ever since?

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And during that period of time, uh, were your brothers and sisters also in school?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, in New York City School System?

Oloye Adeyemon: No, in Summerton.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Did you have any brothers and sisters in [crosstalk 03:54]?

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, my older brother, Harry—th-th-they graduated from Scott's Branch High. My-my, uh, second older brother, Thomas, he graduated from Scott's Branch. And my sister, Catherine 04:04, also graduated from Scott's Branch.

Oloye Adeyemon: So there's four of you?

Nathaniel Briggs: And another—there's five. An-another brother, Willy, he-he graduated school in New York City.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So he was younger.

Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. Well, he's a year older than I-I am.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, uh, your father was, uh, one of the petitioners. And before we talk about what you remember about the case, uh, I want to, uh, go back. You mentioned that your mother, uh, worked in a hotel. Uh, can you tell me, uh, what you know about the earlier period of, say, early 1900s, as far as Summerton being a resort city for people leavin' New York and goin' to Florida?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, my-my recollection a-as a kid is that, um, Summerton was in the area where the main highway, which is 301, came directly through Summerton. And that-that was—Summerton is halfway point between New York City and Miami, Florida.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now at that time, there was no a-no a [unintelligible 05:18].

Nathaniel Briggs: No, just a, uh—State Highway 301. And-and they had a lotta hotels alo-along that particular drive.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now, it-it-it may not have been something, you know, was, uh, obvious at that time, as it was—perhaps you can tell me as a young person, what you saw. But was it the case that there had been a [background noise 05:52] by the '40s in terms of the-the significance of Summerton as a resort city in comparison to what it had been, say, 50 years or 40 years before?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, no. As far as a resort, uh, I-I don't—because my age, I don't know—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 00:06:12].

Nathaniel Briggs: - anything about that part of Summerton bein' a resort town.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right. But there's-there were still in the '40s, during that period—or the '50s, I guess.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: There still were a lot of hotels.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: You'd stop a lot comin' from New York.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, maybe because of the lake that's there, Summerton probably was as a restin' point because of—on the north side the lake, Summerton was the only, probably, commer-commercial town on-on that particular area of, uh, Clarendon County. And, uh, 301 brought people through there and across-across the [unintelligible 06:45] lake.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, you mentioned that your father, uh, worked at a gas station.

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, what was that—what was the name of that gas station? Do you remember?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, S—at that time, brand was, uh, Sinclair Gas Station.

Oloye Adeyemon: It was called Sinclair Gas Station? And where was it located?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, in the town of Summerton.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember—

Nathaniel Briggs: [Crosstalk 07:09]

Oloye Adeyemon: - what intersection?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um, um, I'm tryin' to remember the proper, uh—[unintelligible 07:20] right across from the Piggly Wiggly card st—uh, hardware store. Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: N-now there's a Piggly Wiggly, uh, grocery store. Is that where the hardware store once was?

Nathaniel Briggs: There's a hardware store right next to—

Oloye Adeyemon: Right next to—

Nathaniel Briggs: - that.

Oloye Adeyemon: - that. Okay. So it was right there where that intersection, uh—Jim Bob's—there was a gas station right there?

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Which corner?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, it would be the north, uh-uh, northwest corner.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, good. And this, uh, gas station, wh—do you remember the owner's name?

Nathaniel Briggs: No, I don't. I was too young.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. But, um, he-he was-he was a White owner of the gas—

Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.

Oloye Adeyemon: - station? And how long had he worked there? Do you know about when he started?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um, no. I-I-I—when I grew up, I knew he—that's wh—part of the work that he did.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And how far back do your memories go? Because they started working on this in '49, so, you know, at what age—

Nathaniel Briggs: Let me date myself.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh—

Nathaniel Briggs: I'm-I'm 53, so—

Oloye Adeyemon: What—

Nathaniel Briggs: - fou—1947, so—

Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So you were very young—

Nathaniel Briggs: At the start of this case.

Oloye Adeyemon: - at the start of this case.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was he still working there in your—y-you remember him working?

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, he's still working at that time.

Oloye Adeyemon: So he did not get fired immediately from the job?

Nathaniel Briggs: Well, i-it's '50—'49—immediately—um, no, not immediately. I-I think when-when they got fired was when the name that appeared to the public—whose name was on the petition—probably, hmm—

Oloye Adeyemon: You couldn't have been more than four—

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: - or five.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, uh, but-but being the youngest you hear—

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Yeah.

Nathaniel Briggs: - people talkin' about—

Oloye Adeyemon: But you do remember him working at the gas—

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So when—now, let's go back to things you heard because I wanna go back as early as possible in terms of things you heard maybe later from him—

Nathaniel Briggs: Okay.

Oloye Adeyemon: - and your brothers and sisters and from others. What is your understanding of how he got involved?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um, that the, uh, kids that live out-out of town—that was in a mile—two, three miles from school—they had to walk to school. My understanding is that when he got involved was that the petition came around, and he had—some of his family filled it, uh, for—out in the country. They-they had to walk to school. So the petition came ar—I think it really s—came around out of the St. Mark church—uh, he was a member of that particular church, and his parents were—but that it was automatic that he participated in-in signing the petition.

Oloye Adeyemon: Wh—in terms of your own family, how far did you have to walk?

Nathaniel Briggs: Oh, we only had to walk, um—10 minutes, we'd-we'd be at the school.

Oloye Adeyemon: So when he did this, he did this—

Nathaniel Briggs: Basically—

Oloye Adeyemon: For-for others. He was—

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: - not just c-considering himself. He was qualified because he had children in the—

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: - system, but—and I-and I understand that there were a lotta people who were afraid to sign and there, also, were a lotta people who, uh, some of the leaders of the petition movement urged not to sign, either because they were connected to the schools, or they were working on someone else's property, and they were—they didn't want these people to have to—

Nathaniel Briggs: Move.

Oloye Adeyemon: - move or-or suffer in other ways. So there was some people that wanted to sign that were told not to, and there were others who didn't wanna sign. Would you say, based on what's been told to you, that, uh, there were definitely risks that your father was taking to sign and that he—

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, b-because whe-when you're in a small, segregated community as a Summerton—as I look back now—there was a risk to everybody who signed. I mean, there's—your economic d-d-d-depends on the-on the power elite of that particular county at that particular time. And if you sign, you know there's consequence to be paid. And they all-they all knew the consequence to be paid. Uh, and they banded together [unintelligible 11:48].

Oloye Adeyemon: And he—even though he did not, himself, have children that were having to walk that distance, he was willing to take that risk for others.

Nathaniel Briggs: For others and—

Oloye Adeyemon: And in some cases, for some people that might've been afraid, themselves, to even sign.

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did you ever, uh—I-I understand he obviously was prepared to do that, but did he ever, himself, um, say anything about that decision, just about havin' to make that choice? Was it a choice he had to think about? Was it, you know—had he—did he have a plan just in case, uh, there were repercussions?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I—i-if it was talked about, it was probably between, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 00:12:36].

Nathaniel Briggs: - his—yeah, they—his mother and-and, uh, his father and his—h—you know, his whole, immediate family.

Oloye Adeyemon: As a child, did you ever get the feeling that there was any concern for the safety of the family? 'Cause there were obviously economic repercussions, but, um, I'm sure that, you know, there were at least threats, if not direct violence.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-uh, I remember a-as a child, you know, you-you liked to play through the window. And during this particular time of, uh—before the DeLaine houses got burned down, we was told—or I was told to stay away from the window at night because, you know, we didn't actually know what was gonna happen. Um, that's how, um, touchy the situation was during the '50s. And, um, that's only-only part that I we was warned about. And that we just couldn't go any and everywhere in town.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. Um, I heard that there were, uh, a lotta threats against DeLaine and that some of the men in the community actually protected his house. Do you know anything about that?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-uh, that time, I-w-I-was-I was too young to know who was the protectors. That thing called an underground railroad i-is probably—was alive and well. It would probably still exist today, but it worked then.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: And, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Had you heard that there were people that were protecting his house at night?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um, uh-uh, no, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Not who they were but just that it had-had—

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: - happened. Okay.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Um, but surprisingly, to know that I had to walk past the DeLaine's house on my way to school every morning—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: - and as, uh-uh, as a second, third grader, you walked past a brick house and, all of a sudden, one morning you walk past this house, and all you see left was two chimneys standing.

Oloye Adeyemon: So you-you were there the next day after the fire?

Nathaniel Briggs: Physically, yeah. Phy—I saw it [crosstalk 14:32].

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you know if there was a resident across the street from the school?

Nathaniel Briggs: Directly across the street? Probably 500 yards.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, at the point that it was burned, he was in Lake City himself, right?

Nathaniel Briggs: Wow.

Oloye Adeyemon: He had-he had gone up there to, um—the AME church had reassigned him to Lake City just prior to that.

Nathaniel Briggs: Now, that I-I can't, because, again, I'm-I'm-I'm speaking of, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: New York.

Nathaniel Briggs: - of-of, uh, yeah, of a set-set of [unintelligible 14:55].

Oloye Adeyemon: So, going back, uh, what were the-what were the hardships that your father suffered as a result of being a part of the case that you're aware of?

Nathaniel Briggs: Well, first of all, he-he got, uh, let—uh, got fired from his job as a gas station attendant. And he decided to, uh, t—try farming. Um, my, uh-uh, grandparents had land, so he tried to farm and—uh, I'll [unintelligible 15:28] for the prime example; if a bale of cotton—when they fall—um, if a bale of cotton went for $100 at that particular time, he was probably offered $50 for that same bale of cotton because of—

Oloye Adeyemon: Because he was a person—

Nathaniel Briggs: - Harry Briggs. Um, that went on for-for-for a couple years and, at one point, that—[snapping] we couldn't sustain a livin' anymore. Um-um, so, we wind up movin' to Florida shortly—we, uh—and he—well, he went to Florida back in '58, so—

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, help me understand, if you can—and I hope to talk with some of your own brothers and sisters, possibly. But help me understand, if you can, why there were some people—who were involved with the case—who were run out of town even earlier than that. Why was it that he was able to sustain himself as long as he did?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um, lookin' back, I-I would think, um, he—I think he had financial help from-from his parents. Um, they-they also worked for-for-for White people and lived on White people land. But she was a strong, churchgoin' lady. She was strong-strong Christian, so that-that made 'em s—have stability there in Summerton.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did he have a large family?

Nathaniel Briggs: My father? He was an only child, so that—it's not that, um, that—I think that helped to sustain him quite a bit.

Oloye Adeyemon: How much support did he have from the community itself? 'Cause, again, he had taken a risk for others. Did-did others, kind of, help support—

Nathaniel Briggs: I think, in that time, there's more—and not financial—like a bartering, you know, "Wh-what you need that—what we got, we can exchange—

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

Nathaniel Briggs: - to-to—"

Oloye Adeyemon: So other people in the community definitely, uh—

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: - supported—

Nathaniel Briggs: At the-at the time, to slaughter, uh-uh-uh-uh livestock and to-to—friends and family would come along and slaughter livestock. When you have something, everybody will have something. Uh, in that respect, when we ate—you know, if it was food—we had gardens—we ate. We didn't starve. We had our own house. Maybe because we were, uh, blessed that—

Oloye Adeyemon: You said you had your own house. You owned your own house.

Nathaniel Briggs: They owned their own house so, in that respect, we was kinda—we were stable enough to sustain some of that.

Oloye Adeyemon: So that might've been a factor because so many people didn't own their own homes—

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: - and when they got put off the property, they d—so, one of the things that might've helped him was the fact they couldn't put him out of his house.

Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.

Oloye Adeyemon: Y-you said that he was a member of St. Mark's church?

Nathaniel Briggs: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember who the minister was during this time?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Reverend Seals.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Do you—can you tell me anything about Reverend Seals work in the school?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um, he was one of the-one of the, uh, ministers that, uh, that signed the petition also. Uh, Reverend DeLaine was-was the second one. And, uh, they, uh—through-through they churches, s-spearhead the—helped spearhead the, uh, the-the petitions and, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Did you know of any meetings that occurred at St. Marks?

Nathaniel Briggs: Quite a few meetings. A-again, I was young—to-to know that something was going on here that wasn't a Sunday service.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: - and, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: So this would happen after Sunday service?

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, or some-sometimes right, um, during Sunday services, so they can, uh, c-communicate with-with folks during Sunday service.

Oloye Adeyemon: I know, again, you were young, but it seems to me that Thurgood Marshall came to St. Mark's church at one time.

Nathaniel Briggs: He probably did. Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Do—you don't remember seeing him?

Nathaniel Briggs: I don't remember seeing him there. Uh—um, you knew when somebody of that stature ca-came to town something was goin' on, 'cause people would start to dress up, people start—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: - that, uh, um—during that time, everybody wore white. I mean, I don't know why, but that's-that's what part of the dress code was.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. For church?

Nathaniel Briggs: For church.

Oloye Adeyemon: So when the case actually went to trial—you know, the d—w—it lost—how much were you aware of what happened between that point and the Supreme Court decision? Were you aware, at some point, that the Supreme Court decision had been d—was that something that you remember being told, or was there any talk about that at the time in 1954, the Supreme Court decision?

Nathaniel Briggs: Th-th-th-that's somethin'—you as-you asked me the question before, wh-what helped sustain my-my-my father from not havin' to leave town. Uh, I think my mother was employed. She al—have always worked—

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: - for the, um—

Oloye Adeyemon: She was not fired?

Nathaniel Briggs: Sh-she was not fired. I-I don't wanna blame it on—maybe because she-sh-sh-she worked for a Jewish gentleman—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: - uh, and it—and that situation probably didn't affect him as-as the rest of the people in town, so—

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you happen to know, uh, what the name of that hotel was, by any chance?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Summerton Motel, I think.

Oloye Adeyemon: And do you happen to remember where it's located?

Nathaniel Briggs: On 301, on the south end of town.

Oloye Adeyemon: On 301?

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you don't happen to remember the owners name?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Greenberg, I think.

Oloye Adeyemon: So even though it might've been indirect, would you say that he in a sense, uh—was supported by not—uh, 'cause I'm sure there may have been other people that may have even approached him—

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 21:24].

Nathaniel Briggs: - I-I-I would—

Oloye Adeyemon: - firin' him.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. I would imagine that he was approached but, um, she kept workin', so—

Oloye Adeyemon: You assume—

Nathaniel Briggs: - I-I assume that—

Oloye Adeyemon: He was—

Nathaniel Briggs: [Crosstalk 21:32].

Oloye Adeyemon: - somewhat supportive.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, or—

Oloye Adeyemon: Or at least sympathetic.

Nathaniel Briggs: - sympathetic. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: That's good. So, uh—but I appreciate you addin' that 'cause that's important.

Nathaniel Briggs: I-I figured if it affect some Black folks, well, it-it affect s-some of the Jewish, uh, people of-of that particular town.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. I understand. So, going back, uh—and-and-and just on that note, I understand that early on, uh, because of the business and whatnot, uh, there were, uh, businessmen in the Summerton area, included such groups as Lebanese and others. I don't know if you were, you know, familiar with that, but I'm-I'm saying that because a lot of areas at that time, the South did not have a lot of Jewish businesses. And I'm wondering if it was because of the number of, uh, Jewish people that would've been leaving New York and going to Florida and stopping. They might've made this a place where they could have worked in the south.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, probably somethin'—that probably would be the history that-that I can't answer.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right. We'll have to do further research, but that's an interesting thing because up until this point, it's never come up. But that, in itself, uh, would need to be looked into with—you know, because, uh, Florida changed the law because of the Jewish people not able to go there 'cause—

Nathanial Briggs: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - the hotels wouldn't receive them, then they bought the hotels. And, so, if they bought hotels in Florida to be able to go there, then it makes sense that they would buy hotels in Summerton, which is the midway point—

Nathaniel Briggs: Along the way.

Oloye Adeyemon: - and I can imagine that although there may have been, uh, plantations that didn't like that, you know-you know, presence, they probably benefitted in some way and just, you know, accepted, because the economy tie, you know, so that's gonna be interesting. But getting back—

Nathaniel Briggs: If-if that Black farm was trailed from south to north then it-it—probably, it was a Jewish trail from north to the south—

Oloye Adeyemon: Good point.

Nathaniel Briggs: - so it-it's-it's that much.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Laughter] That's a good point. Um, so, I-I wanna get back, um, to, um, a few, uh, small things that you may be able to help with. We were—I was about to ask you, uh, if you were aware—I guess you woulda been about six or seven but—when the Supreme Court case was decided, either in church or at home, what-wh—do you remember there being a reaction at that time that you'd be [unintelligible 24:19]?

Nathaniel Briggs: If I'm not mistaken, it was—they have a celebration. I think it was around May Day.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, they call it May Day, and we all dressed in—as kids, dressed in white, and we-we played out—and we-we did some, uh, activities out in the, uh, the schoolyard that they—it's f-f-festivities, uh, [unintelligible 24:42]—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathanial Briggs: - in May.

Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, it happened on May 17th, so would this have happened a year after as a-as a commemoration, or do you—are you sayin' that—

Nathaniel Briggs: Um—

Oloye Adeyemon: - there was somethin' done in '54—

Nathaniel Briggs: - it-it was probably—

Oloye Adeyemon: - to celebrate?

Nathaniel Briggs: - it was probably the—lookin' back, it was probably done the year after.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.

Nathaniel Briggs: I remember they-they celebrated May for a number of years—

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. [Unintelligible 25:02].

Nathaniel Briggs: - um, uh, festive about May Day and—

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was this just St. Mark's church or the county in general?

Nathaniel Briggs: We did it at the-the Black, um, Scott's Branch, uh, school at—

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Nathaniel Briggs: - one particular time.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Nathaniel Briggs: And, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Which was still segregated.

Nathaniel Briggs: Still segregated.

Oloye Adeyemon: But there was a celebration.

Nathaniel Briggs: Celebration.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Um, and everybody was happy—teachers and everybody— even those who didn't sign the petition?

Nathaniel Briggs: I assume they was happy, you know, 'cause they looked so—those who-who, uh, who was still hired, 'cause there were some teachers as far as—th-they never got their job back.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: A particular one is, uh, Mr. Mitchell Reagan 00:25:39, which never got his job back.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, he actually signed the petition?

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, I heard that he was—they-they urged him not to.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - and he said, "I'm gonna do it, anyhow."

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Some folks risked it all. I mean—

Oloye Adeyemon: I guess the reason I'm asking is because even though the, uh, school was a Black school, it's under a White ministry. And I just wonder how easy it was for the Black teachers and principal to host such a celebration at that time when the county is still—I mean, as I understand it, it wasn't 'til after the case was decided they burned DeLaine's house down. So it would seem, uh, to me that the Whites are still resenting this, and-and how was it, do you think, that they were able to do that at school?

Nathaniel Briggs: I-I think that they-they do it in a disguise, that when they say, "May Day", it was, uh, maybe celebratin' the new crop.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Laughter] Okay.

Nathaniel Briggs: So, in that respect, it was just, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: That may be why it was called "May Day".

Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Okay. So we—you do remember that happenin'. Were you aware that the Supreme Court decision had been rendered?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um—

Oloye Adeyemon: Did you ever hear anybody talkin' about it?

Nathaniel Briggs: I-I knew a-a-at a young age that something was goin' on. I couldn't tell you whether it was Supreme Court—[unintelligible 27:04].

Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Were there any other things that you remember that we haven't talked about, that occurred during this period, when the case was either being compared, or it had gone to trial and-and lost in South Carolina. And then goin' [background noise 27:25]? You know, because of your age, there's certain details you might not have, but is there anything-anything else you can remember, uh, o-of what might have happened to someone else other than your family members that you heard about or saw? Anything else connected to the case that you remember?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh-uh, w—um, my godmother's Anna Gibson 00:27:45. She also worked at the—

Oloye Adeyemon: She was a petitioner, as well?

Nathaniel Briggs: Correct—at-at the Black high school. And, uh, my wife's mother, uh, Senovia Hilton, uh, she also worked at-at-at the high school in-in the, uh-uh, kitchen. They-they also got, uh—she-she got fired. Uh, that-that case, it was-it was, uh, those who dared to sign and dared to risk it all, well, they—th-they paid that price. They paid every price.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathanial Briggs: Um-um, so, Anna Gibson, without a husband, the only s—mean of, uh, makin' a living was to serve food at the high school or-or-or Scott's Branch at the time. Well she refused to take her name off and, lo and behold, without a job or any support, since her husband was dead, she still f-f—held out and didn't take her name off. So there-there is valor in that struggle.

Oloye Adeyemon: Absolutely. And even though it seemed—I was-I was actually a little surprised because, uh, the Whites felt so strongly. Uh, th-they resisted it so strongly. I'm surprised there wasn't more violence. But when the people signed it, they didn't know, uh, what repercussions might've been taken—the economic ones taken—but they didn't—they had no way of knowin' that their houses wouldn't be, uh, burned, that they wouldn't be shot at, you know? I mean, this is-this is incredible courage that they had.

Nathaniel Briggs: I-I think, uh, in the south, this is, uh, probably the first time the-the rule of law and the rule of power have ever been challenged.

Oloye Adeyemon: I think so.

Nathaniel Briggs: And they—the petitioners didn't know that—

Oloye Adeyemon: What was gonna come from that.

Nathaniel Briggs: - what was gonna happen. Th-they had thought that by—since some of them is, uh, and [unintelligible 29:40] community, where they had more gin houses than they had banks. Uh, more—uh, probably more gin houses than they had churches—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: - so you know what kind of rural community—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 29:50] you mean cotton gin houses?

Nathaniel Briggs: Yes. And it-it was just a rural community of just-just farmers. Um, people had thought that since we worked for—those who worked for-for the White farmers, that what they asked for they would be gettin'. 'Cause if they needed a pair of shoes, they can go to the [Unintelligible 30:10] commissary and sign off and-and get that. Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: And then have the-the money that they would be paid for their crop taken—

Nathaniel Briggs: Taken—

Oloye Adeyemon: - to pay for these shoes that were overpriced.

Nathaniel Briggs: I remember certain stores, th-this little place called the commissary where people could go who work for-for White folks, and you can go and sign off for shoes or whatever. Well, White folk told us that places like that, I couldn't go. You know, you—I wasn't allowed to go in them stores maybe 'cause the attitude of the-of the owner.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was it the case, also, at those p—those, uh—that merchandise was overpriced?

Nathaniel Briggs: Probably so. But, uh, I guess, I don't—at-at a particular time, who owned that particular business, my father probably knew that this-this guy was definitely against the-the petitioners.

Oloye Adeyemon: And in most cases, is it not true that some of the people who owned these commiss—these-these commissaries also were the people you would bring the cotton to?

Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.

Oloye Adeyemon: That they a—actually, it was all one—

Nathaniel Briggs: Right.

Oloye Adeyemon: - operation.

Nathaniel Briggs: One family, yeah. Um, and as a kid, you s—your father said, "Don't do that," and guess what? I had to sneak in there one day and—

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh oh.

Nathaniel Briggs: - and got to [crosstalk 31:12]—

Oloye Adeyemon: Got to find out.

Nathaniel Briggs: - and-and it was a nasty—very nasty—experience, and I've never went back.

Oloye Adeyemon: Would you share that experience with us?

Nathaniel Briggs: Well, he just talked to you like, you know, like—

Oloye Adeyemon: Was this because you were a Briggs tryin'—did he know who you were?

Nathaniel Briggs: I don't think-I don't think they knew who I was because—

Oloye Adeyemon: This is just general behavior.

Nathaniel Briggs: - the-the-the fact that I was a newspaper boy and my brother knew him-newspaper boy in town, and we had to deliver newspaper to White—everybody, community.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 31:35].

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, it's—it was two newspaper. It was called, uh, during the Boy Scout was called The Grit—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Nathaniel Briggs: - and the—later was the Charleston Evening Post we'd-we delivered through uptown. But m-most folks d-didn't know I was Harry and Eliza's son. You know, uh, they—White people just leave the money out there in the envelope. You know, you just never go get-get their money. So that-that part of the experience of ridin' through town and see how, uh, White folks live and how Black folks live, it's-it's a big experience. Pro—it still ex-exists today.

Oloye Adeyemon: So when you went into this commissary, what happened?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um, you was just treated badly and-and called names. Uh, but I just never went back. I mean, I-I just took it—I couldn't tell my father. I didn't tell nobody. I wasn't supposed to be there. Uh, but I never-I never went-went back there.

Oloye Adeyemon: So all of this is-is-is part of what it is that people are wanting to see a change in. It just wasn't schools. It was the whole condition that they had to live with.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, it was-it was for a school bus. It wasn't for a movement or for rights. It started as a school bus. Uh, once the NACP [unintelligible 32:59] got-got involved, th-th-this went from school bus to just-just human rights.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, 'cause people began to-to understand. They had encouragement too.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. I-I just didn't think that-that—they didn't know so—Clarendon County was so bad. I think a lot of folks didn't even know there was—they had human rights problems. They thought that just that's the way it was. That's the way it is. And, um, the-the-the lawyers came in and-and the ministers stayed on board to encourage people, uh, this is not the way it-it is.

Oloye Adeyemon: So I wanna go back to one thing. I don't know if you can help me with this. There were three petitions. There was one that was for equalization that was strung out in court in Charleston before it went to trial. Then there was the second petition preparing for the case, and I understand there may have been up to 104 that signed it, and Thurgood Marshall came in and said, "I just want 20." Your father was one of the final 20. Are you aware of those other petitions and who signed them?

Nathaniel Briggs: No, I-I would l-love to, uh, get a hold of that-that particular person.

Oloye Adeyemon: We're workin' on it.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: That's part of what we're tryin' to, uh, piece together. We've got a lot of it, but we're tryin' to get all that together.

Nathaniel Briggs: If they can get it with Vietnam War with all the signatures down in Washington, I-I would love to—

Oloye Adeyemon: Love to see the written—

Nathaniel Briggs: - see that—

Oloye Adeyemon: - signatures—

Nathaniel Briggs: - same wall in-in freakin' Clarendon County, South Carolina.

Oloye Adeyemon: in South Cl—that's a good point. And that might be something that will not be that difficult to do. It might be hard—I mean, there could be a building built, but because the original school of Scott's Branch is gone, uh, that might be something that—

Nathaniel Briggs: [Unintelligible 34:43] that—

Oloye Adeyemon: -would-would be—

Nathaniel Briggs: - particular goal.

Oloye Adeyemon: And also some kind of a marker with the names of all the people and a little explanation 'cause I'm getting bits and pieces of this but, you know, I don't think it's really fully understood the stages that-that Brigg's-Brigg's case went through. The, um, fed—

Nathaniel Briggs: The, um, fed—is—there's-there's some teachers that-that ultimately paid that price. Uh, those teachers are-are not in a, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: The ones that got fired, you mean?

Nathaniel Briggs: Got fired, mm-hmm. It's just a sad case that the—even the Teacher's Association havin' to, uh, [crosstalk 35:19]—

Oloye Adeyemon: Havin' it now.

Nathaniel Briggs: - havin' it now.

Oloye Adeyemon: It's true-it's true. Good point. Uh, in closing, uh, this part of the interview, what do you feel about, uh—let me back-back up and say—as best you can, uh, how do you feel your father—how do you think your father would feel about what resulted from the sacrifice he made?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I would think daddy would—and my-and my mother—would—w-would say, "There's still work to be done, number one." I mean, the-the issues are still pressin'. I-I-I would think—I've never really thought about what he would say. But I think he would be kind of pleased that, um, that the-the—s-some of the state and federal money has gotten down to the-to the place where they originally thought it—the money should-should be.

Oloye Adeyemon: You're talking about an education in Summerton itself.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah, um, s—

Oloye Adeyemon: Is that what you mean?

Nathaniel Briggs: Tryin' to get—try to equalize some of the state funding for the county of Clarendon County, uh, since it's probably still goin' to poorest community—poorest county—in the state; that it almost took all these years and all these lives and all these, uh, people to even acknowledge that-that there's a need there in Clarendon County. Um, I would think he would be-be kind of pleased.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you think he would do it again?

Nathaniel Briggs: Without a doubt. Um, both parents, without a doubt. Um, it's-it's-it's—if—it's probably satisfaction on his case that-that-that he-he did what was in his heart to do, even though it didn't aff-affect him or his children directly as far as walkin' to school. In the original case they get transportation. That's gonna give you all of it.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what do-what do you feel are the areas where his work [fading voice 37:28]?

Nathaniel Briggs: Um, once you establish history, and y-y-you did it, and-and now you need some type of-of booklet to let White and Blacks children in that particular county know that there was a struggle that took-took place there in Clarendon County. Part of that work needs to be done, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Well, you're contributing to that today—

Nathaniel Briggs: Well, I'm—

Oloye Adeyemon: - by sharing your story.

Nathaniel Briggs: I'm happy to do that. Um, there is—if-if there's an encyclopedia of all the cases that took place back in the '50s, and the Southland is the lead case, that [unintelligible 38:12] need to be in those children's h-hands today. But if you get a-a—even a 10th grader in Clarendon County today—

Oloye Adeyemon: Doesn't know what it is.

Nathaniel Briggs: - don't know what it is.

Oloye Adeyemon: That's right.

Nathaniel Briggs: Or probably a 10th grader in Kansas that don't know what it is.

Oloye Adeyemon: We've talked to, uh—we actually interviewed superintendents of schools and, uh, it is our intention to share this collection with some to—not just on South Carolina but around the whole country—and he's already indicated that, uh, once that's done, they're gonna look at incorporating it into the curriculum, so the children can learn it.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Well, I-I think somethin' that my father would say, "Well, we did all of that. Now, what happened to your Black school administrators? What happened to those folks that had a professional job there in town?"

Oloye Adeyemon: The ones that had the jobs at that time?

Nathaniel Briggs: At that particular time.

Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause many of them were fired, right?

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Now, he would actually say, "Well, who's gonna see their children? Who's gonna educate their children? Who's gonna pay for their children's education?" That's-that's—I would think, he-he would, uh, say at the end of this, uh, "W-w-we did the job." 'Cause some folks are st-still hurt. I mean, uh, 'cause they—

Oloye Adeyemon: I understand that [Unintelligible 39:21] Wells wa-Wells was the leader of the high school class that helped to galvanize things. And he was hit—they-they sent a false transcript, and he wasn't able to go to college. So, he was pres—past president at [unintelligible 39:34] school. Um, I really appreciate, you know, you taking the time to share with us the things you have. And I guess, now, I-I wanna know what do you feel about it? What do you feel about the education, uh, the children received there in Summerton? Uh, is there anything you would add to what you've seen; your own feelings?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I would—I don't know how this could come about, but I would love to-to, uh—if I'm standing at this particular imaginary fence, and there's no White counterpart standing right next-right next to me with his grands 40:22 or standing, and I'm standing right next to him, and he—we lookin' at the same area through a fence, and he can say, "Well, grandson, all this was ours," and he can feel proud in saying that. And I can only stand there and say, "Well, son, we don't have anything to show you. Why the struggle? They had all of this, and we have nothin' on the other hand." There's-there's—

Oloye Adeyemon: You'd like to have somethin' to point to.

Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Th-there seems to be that, uh-uh, there's—in-in B-in Black cases, the history is-is erased quickly.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you feel that Whites benefit from this, and if so, how?

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, no. I-I think th—to set people free there's—it has to be done on both sides, uh, from the-from the economic standpoint and from the human soul point. I-I think the majority of Whites in Clarendon County are not free, they're not safe.

Oloye Adeyemon: But they could've—this-this-this-this story can actually help them in that way.

Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, yes, it probably can, um, if it's done properly. Uh, it will help their grand 'cause it—I think you just don't-you just don't change, uh, [unintelligible 41:44].

Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Well thank you very much for takin' this time.

Nathaniel Briggs: Okay.

Oloye Adeyemon: It's been very helpful.