Last updated: April 6, 2024
Article
Oral History Interview with Edmond Carpenter
AUGUST 12, 2001
INTERVIEWED BY OLOYE ADEYEMON
The transcript below corresponds to the media embedded on this page
BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
EDITORIAL NOTICE
The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. Due to the sensitive nature of the interview, it may contain inflammatory language that some find offensive. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition.ABSTRACT
Edmond Carpenter was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. His Parents, Walter and Mary Black had three children, W. Sam, John and Edmond. Carpenter attended Princeton University before enlisting in U.S. Army, then obtained is law degree from Harvard University. He eventually became the Deputy Attorney General under Attorney General H. Albert Young. Carpenter speaks about the political landscape and demographics of northern and southern Delaware prior to the Belton (Bulah) v. Gebhart court case.Persons mentioned: Walter S. Carpenter Jr., Mary Carpenter (Wootten), W. Sam Carpenter III, John Wilton Carpenter, Aaron Finger, Robert Richards Sr., Lewis Finger, Charles Richards, Robert Richards Jr., Caleb Layton, Rodney Laton, Henry Canby, H. Albert Young, Pierre DuPont, TC DuPont, Alfred I DuPont, Harry G. Haskell Jr., Kale Fox,
Transcript
[Pause 00:00 - 00:35]
Oloye Adeyemon: It's August 12th, 2001, and we're on the Fisher Island Ferry, leaving New London, Connecticut near the Rhode Island border on our way to Fisher Island, which is about a 45-minute ride in the ferry. And we're adding this to the beginning of the tape, uh, audio—the video tape of, uh, interview that we're going to do with Mr. Edmund Carpenter, who previously served as Deputy Attorney General of the State of Delaware.
And we're adding this to the beginning of the, um, interview to give some indication, for those at the Park Service that be looking at this, as to the amount of enthusiasm there is about the interviews we're doing, and also, uh, the willingness and even, uh, in some cases anxiousness, uh, that we've found both among Whites and Blacks to be interviewed.
Uh, this is a result of a interview that we did in, uh, Wilmington, uh, Delaware on, uh, Friday or actually Thursday evening with, uh, Mr. Lewis Finger, who also served as—one time as a Deputy, uh, Attorney General of Delaware. And after a full evening with him in three interviews, three tapings, uh, he was so excited about it that he—without our knowing it, Paul, uh, Deputy—uh, previous Deputy, uh, Attorney General, Carpenter, who has a—has resort property on the island, who is away from Delaware to not be bothered by anybody or anything. He called him, uh, uh, Thursday night, told him what we were doing.
And, uh, both of them served, uh, during that period. Uh, Lewis Finger actually represented Delaware in South in, uh, in Supreme Court in Washington. But as a result of that call, uh, Lewis Finger called me back, told me to call Carpenter right away. I did. And, uh, without any hesitation, uh, Mr. Carpenter said, uh, that not only, uh, was he prepared to interview if we could come to him, but that, uh, we would not have to drive. He would drive to meet us at the, uh, other end of the ferry ride, and he'd be happy to do, uh, whatever he could as—and, you know, do more than—multiple tapes if necessary.
And as you'll see later, he had—he played an important role, but the fact that he would have us come, uh, I think is very significant. And the fact, um, in their minds that we would be willing to come is equally significant 'cause they're all taking notes that, uh, we're willing to do—to go to this extent, to get the story. And I think it's a testimony to, uh, both the Park Service as well as both the Whites and Blacks that were involved in this story.
[Pause 03:36 - 04:04]
Oloye Adeyemon: We are arriving on Fisher's Island.
[Pause 04:09 - 04:14]
Child: Hi.
Oloye Adeyemon: We're here.
Male Voice: We're here.
[Extraneous Conversation 04:20 - 04:42]
Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board Oral History Collection. New Castle County Segregation and Segregation Interviews. Interviewee, Mr. Edmond Carpenter. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted on August 12th, 2001 on Fisher's Island, off the coast of Connecticut, in the home of Mr. Carpenter. These interviews are made possible through the Brown V Board Oral History research project, funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001, as part of a Brown versus Board of Education, National Historic Site or History Collection. Mr. Carpenter, what is your full name?
Edmond Carpenter: My full name is Edmond Nelson Carpenter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Nelson. And when you were born?
Edmond Carpenter: I was born in January of 1921.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were born?
Edmond Carpenter: I was actually born in Philadelphia, though my family was living in Wilmington at the time, [unintelligible 06:04] where I was born, but my mother's doctor lived in Philadelphia, and I was born en route to Philadelphia in a hill.
Oloye Adeyemon: Who were your-who were your parents?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, my father was Walter S. Carpenter Jr. And my mother was Mary Wootten, uh, W-O-O-T-T-E-N, Carpenter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Where were they born? 1 Edmond Carpenter: My mother was born in Laurel, Delaware, and my father was born in Wilkesboro, Pennsylvania, and in fact, came down from Wilkesboro to, uh, Burlington.
Oloye Adeyemon: That's Pennsylvania coast.
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, well sort of, it's, uh, a rather impoverished section of, uh, Pennsylvania now, noted, uh, I guess principally for coal mining.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when were they born?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, my-my father was born in 1888, and my-my mother was born about that time, 1988 or '89.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you have brothers and sisters?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I had two brothers. They're both deceased.
Oloye Adeyemon: Older or younger?
Edmond Carpenter: Both older.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were their names?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, W. Sam Carpenter, third, uh, named after my father and John Wilton Carpenter here.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did your, uh, father do in Wilmington?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, my f-father, uh, spent his entire business career with a DuPont company. Uh, he actually left college, he didn't graduate from college in order to take a job with the DuPont company, uh, in Chile, uh, where the DuPont company was then buying its nitrates for the manufactured explosives.
Uh, my mother actually was a, uh, governess with, uh, one of the DuPont families. She had, uh, wanted to leave, [unintelligible 08:09], which is a very tiny town in the southern part of Delaware, uh, and see more of the world. And she had an opportunity to work as a—what we would call a nanny today, uh, as a-as a part of the household of Irenee.
Oloye Adeyemon: Who?
Edmond Carpenter: Irenee.
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell it?
Edmond Carpenter: That's I-R-E-N-E-E.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And where did she live?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, she lived originally in Laurel and later out west, because her father was an Indian agent that was the person in charge of Indian reservation.
Oloye Adeyemon: Which reservation?
Edmond Carpenter: It was in South Dakota, but I don't really know which reservation.
Oloye Adeyemon: But as an adult, she worked as a governess?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Where-where did you say?
Edmond Carpenter: In Wilmington.
Oloye Adeyemon: In Wilmington.
Edmond Carpenter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And—
Edmond Carpenter: That's where my father met her.
Oloye Adeyemon: But he had been in Chile.
Edmond Carpenter: He was—yes. After he'd been in Chile for a couple of years, uh, he moved back to Wilmington and worked in the home office for DuPont company.
Oloye Adeyemon: When did he do that?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, uh, he was—DuPont company at that time was quite small, uh, compared to what it is today. And he was, uh, an executive with the company and later president.
Oloye Adeyemon: You say the President?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. And so, when you were born, they were both at that time, uh, working for DuPont [unintelligible 09:41]?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, when-when I was born, my mother had left to take care of my two older brothers. And, uh, so she was not working except as a homemaker.
Oloye Adeyemon: But your-your father—
Edmond Carpenter: My father was working until he passed.
Oloye Adeyemon: You, uh, yourself, uh, practiced law?
Edmond Carpenter: I did.
Oloye Adeyemon: With what firm?
Edmond Carpenter: With the firm, Richards, Layton & Finger in Wilmington.
Oloye Adeyemon: When did you start working?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I actually started my clerkship with them, uh, a clerkship was a mandatory requirement, uh, back in 1948. But I didn't really become a member of the bar until early 1939.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where'd you go to law school?
Edmond Carpenter: I went to Harvard Law School.
Oloye Adeyemon: And had you, uh, done your, uh—done any studies before going to law school-law school?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. Yeah, I was—I went to Princeton, uh, before the war, uh, and, uh, accelerated and ran into the Army, uh, and, uh, initially was a private in Texas, and then, uh, later as an officer in China.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what was your major at Princeton?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, well, I was in a program called Humanities Program, uh, and the principal said, that's my major, but it was really in English.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, in '49, you began working with the law firm with Wilmington?
Edmond Carpenter: Yeah. I really began in '48, uh, on the clerkship, I say, which was mandatory. And I met an—unpaid, at that time. It was considered a privilege to be a clerk for the law firm, uh, and most clerks were unpaid. Uh, and then I actually became employed with them at the end of my fellowship, which would've been after I passed the bar in, uh, ’49.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, the law firm was Bruce that you-that you joined, was considered under [unintelligible 12:00] law firm. Is that correct?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. But at that time, it was quite small office. There were nine of us, I think. And now it's over 100. Another thing, the story about that particular law firm was that, Aaron Finger was the first Jewish lawyer [unintelligible 12:16].
Aaron Finger had had an extraordinary career. First of all, his father was the mailman that delivered the mail to the man who became senior, uh, Robert Richard Senior, who died about 1952. Uh, and Aaron Finger, uh, as a younger, had to go to work. He had not graduated from high school when he left his father, the mailman, he knew Mr. Richards, who always delivered mail to him. Uh, asked if his son, who was proficient in shorthand, would come and work as a secretary for Mr. Richards.
So, he started there, uh, as a secretary. And then he asked Mr. Richards if he could a redo law, which at that time was an acceptable way of preparing for the bar exam. And, uh, he later took a, uh, college equivalency examination, and then the bar examination, passing both with flying colors and became the first, uh, Jewish lawyer in the state of Delaware. And shortly enough, which he became a judge. And this wasn't—he was the first-year judge too.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what year would those two events occur?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I think [crosstalk 13:36]. I think we're looking at about, uh, 1910, 1911, because I missed the book—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Edmond Carpenter: - for Mr. Finger. Uh, the reason I guessed that date is that I know that notwithstanding the fact that he was a judge, a-and therefore, except from the draft, and, uh, notwithstanding the fact that disposition to the judge was a matter of great pride for his family, uh, and for the Jewish community. Uh, he resigned to join the army when America entered the war in, uh, in the 19th century.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Edmond Carpenter: So, he was already a judge at that point. 1910 was the date [crosstalk 14:26]—
Oloye Adeyemon: Was a judge sometime later.
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And let me take this opportunity to say, uh, that many of the dates that we come to, uh, will be, uh, footnoted as part of the transcript, because it's only been a couple days since we first spoke.
Edmond Carpenter: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, um, you know, I come from Delaware, uh, straight to Connecticut without a lot of time to prepare myself really, uh, referred me to some historic society in Delaware. I'm not getting a chance to, which I wouldn't beginning this week. So, much of what we cannot, um, be specific about it this time will be including transcript [unintelligible 15:11].
Oloye Adeyemon: The—and I think it's also, uh, important to say here that it was through Aaron Finger's son—
Edmond Carpenter: [Unintelligible 15:22].
Oloye Adeyemon: - that I came to board, did an interview with us, and he, uh, served as, uh, Deputy Attorney General of the state Delaware during the time of Delaware case, and was asked to be a Special Deputy Attorney General or Deputy Specialist Counsel when they [unintelligible 15:42] court. Uh, but I understand that when he actually [unintelligible 15:46] Supreme Court during that time, you wrote a [unintelligible 15:50]—
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in that time. So, you-you, uh, succeeded?
Edmond Carpenter: I did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. And, um, I think it's, uh, you know, quite fortunate that not only [unintelligible 16:06] contact, you ensure [unintelligible 16:08] interview with this, especially that you're here [unintelligible 16:14] treatment.
Edmond Carpenter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: You get away from the officer. I think that's a lot about, you're-you're interested in this study [unintelligible 16:28] to help us. Uh, you never know when you're interviewing, what's not in the record, but I'm sure somewhat probably additional value. Uh, so getting back, uh, was Lewis Finger at that time also a member of [unintelligible 16:45], how did you do that?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. I-I should say that neither of us were really members of the firm. We were employees of the firm, the-the partners.
Oloye Adeyemon: Richard [unintelligible 16:55].
Edmond Carpenter: Richard, Layton & Finger and, uh, and, uh, Mr. Henry Canby.
Oloye Adeyemon: Those three.
Edmond Carpenter: Well, Richards, Layton & Finger plus a Henry Canby—
Oloye Adeyemon: Those are four.
Edmond Carpenter: - became a partner very soon after I joined.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what were the full names of the other partners?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, it was Robert Richards Senior. Uh, and there's a little confusion there because his son was also Robert Richards and became the primary player in the firm, uh, about the same time. Uh, the-the founder was Robert Richards, Sr. And the one I referred to Robert Richards, Jr became his successor, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: As Lewis Finger did his father.
Edmond Carpenter: As Lewis Finger did his father. There also was a Charles Richards I forgot, uh, about, Uh, Robert Richards, Sr. had two sons, uh, uh, brothers too, but two sons who were in the firm. Charles Richards and Robert Richards. And, uh, then there was a Caleb Layton, uh, who was the Layton in the firm. And he had a son, Rodney Layton, who joined the firm at the same time I did. Uh, and then, uh, Aaron Finger, uh, who had a son, Louis Finger.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you said who was an additional?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, Henry Canby, who was, uh, uh, a non-family member of the firm as I was, uh, and he became a partner about the time we're discussing, the early 1950s or late 40s.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, um, Lewis Fingers shared that his career was temporarily interrupted by the Korean war.
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, no. By World War II.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 18:46].
Edmond Carpenter: I was in the Korean War, but Lewis Finger, uh, was, uh, in the Air Force in World War II and actually was shot down over Yugoslavia.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 18:57]. And, um, yes, I—as a matter of fact, I do [unintelligible 19:02], it's shot down in World War II. So, you became Deputy Attorney General at under Attorney?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. Actually, the-the then Attorney General, H. Albert Young, had asked me if I would serve with him before, uh, I was recalled within, I remember a matter of days, or perhaps a week or so, uh, I received a telegram over back into the service.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you say back into the service, you had been in service—
Edmond Carpenter: In World War II.
Oloye Adeyemon: - for how long?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I-I actually enlisted in, uh, in 1942.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you were at Princeton.
Edmond Carpenter: I was at Princeton. Uh, I had, uh, previously signed up with the Canadian Air Force, but, uh, the United States had been to a treaty with Canada, transferred us all back into the draft bill. And, uh, so then I enlisted, uh, as a project in the Army in 1942. But they did not actually fall active duty until January of 1943. And I had accelerated. So, I had finished, uh, Princeton [unintelligible 20:23].
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, during the time prior to going off to school, uh, how, uh, seconded was the statement?
Edmond Carpenter: [Unintelligible 20:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: And that would include the school district? The school district [unintelligible 20:39].
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, is it correct that one difference between some areas of the south or particularly areas that are related to the stores of the South Carolina and Virginia, um, that Delaware, for the most part, had, uh, also segregated residential lands in South Carolina, for example, uh, Blacks and Whites lived pretty much in the same places in, uh—it's not an, it's not an integrated society, but I understand people in South Carolina, Virginia, that I spoken with yesterday, that, uh, picked South Carolina said that they did—growing up, they had White friends growing up.
Edmond Carpenter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And particularly those friendships might have been close until school.
Edmond Carpenter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then because of the Syria school system, their lives became more-more separate, you know, [unintelligible 21:45]. That did not exist in [unintelligible 21:50].
Edmond Carpenter: Well, in Wilmington, uh, my recollection is that the-the town was pretty well divided between the west side and the east side. And the east side was largely Black. And the, uh, the west side was largely White. But there-there were a number of separate communities within-within those areas. There was an Italian community, for example. It was a very large and prominent Polish community within Italian town of Wilmington.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, so, uh, there were those distinct areas. Herein lies another difference between Delaware and, uh, South Carolina, Virginia, in that, uh, there was a, uh, significant Polish community, immigrant, European immigrant community in the northern part of the state because of some of the industry.
Edmond Carpenter: Yes, I think-I think so.
Oloye Adeyemon: The Clark Company would've been one of those things?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: There also was a, uh, other jobs with people in the railroad and other—
Edmond Carpenter: There were.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were there any other major companies that they [unintelligible 22:53] in Northern Hemisphere?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, yeah. By that time, you mean, when I got back in 1948 [crosstalk 23:00]?
Oloye Adeyemon: Between 19 [unintelligible 23:01].
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, the DuPont Company, uh, as a result of an antitrust decision, was split into three companies. Uh, I would guess around 1911 and 1912, uh, the DuPont company, Hercules, Annapolis. And Hercules and Annapolis were large, substantial corporations.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. They were located there. Yes.
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, the, uh, the other industries there included a-a very substantial, uh, workshop of the company on the railroad. Uh, there was a-a leather industry, uh, and there were other, uh, perhaps smaller, but very active industries, and in the south of Delaware, very active agricultural industry.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is it safe to say that in many ways, uh, Northern Delaware is close to [unintelligible 24:06]?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, I think, uh, Northern Delaware, uh, always had, uh, a more industrialized and more northern oriented, uh, culture and atmosphere than southern Delaware, which was more agricultural and more southern [unintelligible 24:25]. And historically, in the Civil War, the north of Delaware sent troops to the Union forces, and the south of Delaware sent troops to the Confederacy, although the state itself remained union. And I think that, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Is-is that peninsula Delaware actually sits, uh, back there [crosstalk 24:49]—
Edmond Carpenter: About the Mason Dixon line, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Because it's not very far from that tip of Virginia here.
Interviewee 1: Well, it's Del—more of a peninsula city, Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, uh, all on the eastern shore. There's the eastern shore of Maryland, there's an eastern shore of Virginia.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, I asked that about, uh, the commission. 'Cause I understand a lot of the businesses that are operating in Delaware also operate in Pennsylvania, in some cases, southern Jersey. But even going back further, uh, I understand that there's a significant Quaker population in the [unintelligible 25:26] area—
Edmond Carpenter: There was.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that was connected to the Quaker population.
Edmond Carpenter: Absolutely.
Oloye Adeyemon: Whereas, uh, in the south [unintelligible 25:35], the-the culture developed quite differently. And is that cultural based in some cases, tobacco farm?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is it true from your understanding that, uh, most of the slaves that were held there, they were doing slavery in the southern part of the state?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, I think so. Uh, I've never really seen a rundown on that. Of course, the Quakers were very, uh, anti-slavery, and there were important stations of the Underground Railroad in, uh, in Delaware, particularly in Wilmington. On the other hand, there was also a reverse underground, [clears throat] excuse me. As you may know, Patty Cannon was a, uh, figure, uh, during slavery period, uh, who was kidnapping, uh, Blacks from the northern part of the country and selling them back in slavery in southern part. And she had an underground railroad.
Oloye Adeyemon: Fourteen miles of Bridgeville.
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And she was, uh, I think in southern Delaware.
Edmond Carpenter: She was near Bridgeville, Delaware, which is in the south, as I recall. It was a cannons ferry at that time she lived there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I've made accounts of people who were free being kidnapped in Philadelphia. Yeah.
Edmond Carpenter: Yeah. And she had a barn with a false ceiling, and she kept the-the kidnapped, uh, Blacks up there and sold 'em back in slavery.
Oloye Adeyemon: And some of 'em were—had never been—people she was capturing escaped these [unintelligible 27:08].
Edmond Carpenter: That's what I understand. I’ve heard about that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, I’ve heard about that. I'm glad you mentioned that [unintelligible 27:14], because it gives us a sense of what Delaware was like.
Edmond Carpenter: And in a-in a way, Delaware was somewhat of a microcosm of the entirety United States, in that, its southern portion was, as I mentioned, agricultural and oriented toward the south, and the northern part was industrial and, uh, and really oriented towards the North.
Oloye Adeyemon: I want to jump ahead just for a second and ask if the response to—initiative response to desegregation that differed so much from the northern part of the state, southern part of the state was in part due to, uh, a greater, uh, importance on education in north because of the industry. And also, the fact that aside from considering the Black population, the North is more diverse and perhaps a little bit more progressive, better educated [unintelligible 28:29].
Edmond Carpenter: Well, uh, I don't know that I would describe it that way. I just feel that the southern part of the state, uh, at that time, uh, had a different attitude toward the-the Black population, uh, than existed, at least among the more sophisticated members of the community in the northern part of the state. Uh, whereas in the northern part of the state, uh, at least when I moved there, uh, we did see, uh, a social intercourse between, uh, Blacks and Whites. I think that would've been very much disagree in the southern state.
Oloye Adeyemon: I had heard it said that even, uh, Whitesman times did not—in the south did not have the opportunity for education of Blacks, um, Blacks—Whites in the south of the state did not have the opportunity that Whites in the northern part of the state might have, because DuPont-DuPont h-himself worked hard to improve, uh, the education in the remote areas. Would you say that that's [unintelligible 29:48]?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, when you say DuPont, I-I don't whether you're talking about the company or the individuals. Uh, both. Is that right? Well, the DuPont company went through a dramatic change in the early part of the 1900s. And 1902, the company was failing badly and was about to be sold to its largest competitor. And at that time, three DuPonts, uh, got together. Uh, it's quite a long story, but just to abbreviated that, uh, Pierre DuPont, uh, TC DuPont, uh, and Alfred I DuPont, uh, got together and basically purchased the entire company, uh, because they purchased part of it, uh, the stock and a lot of their own leverage to buy out.
Uh, the stock was held widely by the other members of the family still. But, uh, these were the three prominent new members. And I think all of them were—all three of them were quite progressive. But, uh, TC DuPont, uh, wanted to unify the state, and, uh, he was reported to a state at one time, he was gonna build a-a monument to himself 100 miles high and lay it down the length of the state.
And he built his own personal expense and really under his own personal supervision, a highway from the northern part of the state to the southern part of the state, to help and-and to eliminate the isolation the southern part of the state had, uh, and to give the farmers, uh, access to the markets.
Pierre DuPont was very much involved personally in, uh, improving the school district. Uh, I mean, all the school districts, but particularly in Newcastle County. And he personally built out of his own pocket, a number of the schools. And, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: They include [unintelligible 31:48].
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. Uh, uh, and, uh, and not only that, but, uh, because there seemed to be, uh, insufficient funds to operate the schools, he is the one who established, uh, the income tax and actually became tax commissioner personally, uh, to raise the money to see that the [crosstalk 32:10]. He was very active in the political sphere, but mostly as a-as a financier, uh, of the school system. And because of him, uh, the school system did enormously improve, although I think it did—started from very low level.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would you say that, um, this effort to unify the s-state was not just geographical, but engulfed with politics as well? That the state was somewhat divided into two.
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I don't know that at that time, and then I really have to get that information from somebody else. I'm-I'm just not sure. Uh, I'm sure there was politics involved in the things that they did too, obviously you had to get state approval to go the highway, uh, and, uh, state approval will go the schools. But, uh, I don't know that it was Republican versus Democrat politics, but, uh, rather an effort by a man who had the most benevolent intentions to upgrade the state.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I'll-I'll have to, uh, do—add that to, uh, Mr. Footnote, but I-I had heard that one of the things that had been difficult until serious efforts made state was some of the vast vestiges of the—friction existed from the period [unintelligible 33:44]. Some families, some kids [unintelligible 33:51].
Well, that's, um, definitely, uh, very helpful. When you—well, you know, came back from World War II, uh, what would you say that the feelings were at that point in regards to segregation in the Black community? How did—was it something in the government [unintelligible 34:26]? Was it something that people—uh, did you have a sense, thinking back, that people were just accepting and taking it for granted? Um, were there any things that you noticed, uh, could feel in the White community that would suggest that without court legislation and other things that things were moving in the right direction?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, uh, shortly after, uh, I, uh, got back to Wilmington, uh, I joined the Active Young Republicans. And, uh, in the, uh, next campaign, which would've been, uh, the campaign of 1950, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 35:20].
Edmond Carpenter: - the Attorney Generals elected. Uh, the Active Young Republicans actually proposed that the platform for the Republican Party include, uh, the desegregation of the schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: This would've been the Republican Party of Delaware?
Edmond Carpenter: No, this was the Active Young Republicans, which was part of the Republican Party of Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: For Delaware. Okay.
Edmond Carpenter: For Delaware. Uh, so there was, uh, at that time, uh, a-a movement among some young people that were interested in politics in desegregating the schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: How was [unintelligible 36:03]?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, that was rejected. Uh, on-on the other hand, I think, uh, a number of people kept up that drum beat. And of course, uh, that rest the year of, uh, Chancellor [unintelligible 36:21] first decision—
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 36:23].
Edmond Carpenter: Yeah. Uh, yes. When he-when he was the first judge in the country to order the immediate desegregation of the previous of law in White University.
Oloye Adeyemon: During that period, uh, that it's safe to say the White community, and even in South Carolina, you surely know this, but there were more—there was more evidence in the White community in Delaware than perhaps in south [unintelligible 37:01], uh, of the desire to change. There would not have been something as much of a Black and White issue as it might be. [Unintelligible 37:11].
Edmond Carpenter: I think the desire for change was among young people. Uh, uh, at that time, uh, I was in my 20s. Uh, I had a very close associate in this, uh, effort to desegregate skills. Uh, Hal Haskell, uh, who, uh, later became, uh, a Congressman from Delaware and Mayor of Wilmington. Uh, and we advocated it, but I would say we were a minority at that time. But I-I want to emphasize that that feeling was abroad, that the—that this was wrong, the segregation.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what were some studies with you said the person's name is—
Edmond Carpenter: Hal. It's Haskell. It's actually Harry G Haskell Jr.
Oloye Adeyemon: And he held—what was his?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, he later—uh, first of all, he was very active also in the, uh, Active Young Republicans. I was the president. Uh, and he mainly later become president, but he did later run for and was elected to Congress, uh, full of district, [crosstalk 38:23]. Well-well, Delaware's only one district.
Oloye Adeyemon: District.
Edmond Carpenter: We have such a small, uh, population. We only have one, uh, representative. Uh, and then, uh, still later, surprisingly, uh, in later, the fact that it's overwhelmingly democratic, he was elected Mayor of Wilmington.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, the state was Republican by and large during the years around that time.
Edmond Carpenter: I would describe it as a swing state.
Oloye Adeyemon: A swing state.
Edmond Carpenter: Always a swing. We frequently had—and I think we had at that time a Republican Attorney General.
Oloye Adeyemon: He's elected. And a Governor.
Edmond Carpenter: And a governor who was a Democrat.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And what was the name?
Edmond Carpenter: I think Cavel, Governor Carvel came in, uh, about that time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Yes. So, there-there it—politically then it was a situation with a balance of power, democracy [unintelligible 39:19].
Edmond Carpenter: It switched back and forth. We had a Republican senator, uh, Senator Williams, and we had a Democratic Senator, Alan Freer. And we had, uh, at that time a Republican, uh, congressman, uh, Kale Fox, who was, uh, uh, later a senator and was replaced by, uh, a Senator Black.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, is it safe to say in that kind of environment that something as volatile as [unintelligible 39:47] just 'cause-'cause of the nature of the parties [unintelligible 39:51]?
Edmond Carpenter: Good question. It would've been politicized, but I-I would not say as a political Republican versus Democrat, but as candidate against candidate. So, even Republican candidates would use that as issue, might—well, and progress on-on either side.
Oloye Adeyemon: On either side, yeah. Was it much of an independent—was independent vote [unintelligible 40:17]?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. The independent vote was over-overwhelmed. It always has been.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 40:22].
Edmond Carpenter: E-exactly.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, this is real-real-real helpful. Um, is there anything in the last few minutes we have about the first part of the interview, is there anything else that you can add that you feel might be background before we focus our attention on just the court case [unintelligible 40:48]?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, I know we're gonna talk later about Chancellor [unintelligible 40:52], but I think we've got to, uh, realize that in making this initial decision, uh, in the University of Railroad case and also his related decision to sort of reinforce that in the school system, he was definitely, uh, killing any chance he had, of being confirmed for a position on the, uh, Supreme Court of Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, did that seem to [unintelligible 41:22]?
Edmond Carpenter: It did not.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you took a gold stand politically like [unintelligible 41:27]?
Edmond Carpenter: Absolutely. And I think this was recognized by everybody including him, that, uh, if he decided the case that way, that was the end of this career, uh, because the legislature under no circumstances, confirmed him, uh, for a higher position. So, I guess his opponent recognized that he was [unintelligible 41:49].
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
[Pause 41:53 - 42:15]
[End of Audio]
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- Duration:
- 42 minutes, 15 seconds
Carpenter eventually became the Deputy Attorney General under Attorney General H. Albert Young. Carpenter speaks about the political landscape and demographics of northern and southern Delaware prior to the Belton (Bulah) v. Gebhart court case.
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ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH EDMOND CARPENTER
Oloye Adeyemon: It's August 12th, 2001, and we're on the Fisher Island Ferry, leaving New London, Connecticut near the Rhode Island border on our way to Fisher Island, which is about a 45-minute ride in the ferry. And we're adding this to the beginning of the tape, uh, audio—the video tape of, uh, interview that we're going to do with Mr. Edmund Carpenter, who previously served as Deputy Attorney General of the State of Delaware.And we're adding this to the beginning of the, um, interview to give some indication, for those at the Park Service that be looking at this, as to the amount of enthusiasm there is about the interviews we're doing, and also, uh, the willingness and even, uh, in some cases anxiousness, uh, that we've found both among Whites and Blacks to be interviewed.
Uh, this is a result of a interview that we did in, uh, Wilmington, uh, Delaware on, uh, Friday or actually Thursday evening with, uh, Mr. Lewis Finger, who also served as—one time as a Deputy, uh, Attorney General of Delaware. And after a full evening with him in three interviews, three tapings, uh, he was so excited about it that he—without our knowing it, Paul, uh, Deputy—uh, previous Deputy, uh, Attorney General, Carpenter, who has a—has resort property on the island, who is away from Delaware to not be bothered by anybody or anything. He called him, uh, uh, Thursday night, told him what we were doing.
And, uh, both of them served, uh, during that period. Uh, Lewis Finger actually represented Delaware in South in, uh, in Supreme Court in Washington. But as a result of that call, uh, Lewis Finger called me back, told me to call Carpenter right away. I did. And, uh, without any hesitation, uh, Mr. Carpenter said, uh, that not only, uh, was he prepared to interview if we could come to him, but that, uh, we would not have to drive. He would drive to meet us at the, uh, other end of the ferry ride, and he'd be happy to do, uh, whatever he could as—and, you know, do more than—multiple tapes if necessary.
And as you'll see later, he had—he played an important role, but the fact that he would have us come, uh, I think is very significant. And the fact, um, in their minds that we would be willing to come is equally significant 'cause they're all taking notes that, uh, we're willing to do—to go to this extent, to get the story. And I think it's a testimony to, uh, both the Park Service as well as both the Whites and Blacks that were involved in this story.
[Pause 03:36 - 04:04]
Oloye Adeyemon: We are arriving on Fisher's Island.
[Pause 04:09 - 04:14]
Child: Hi.
Oloye Adeyemon: We're here.
Male Voice: We're here.
[Extraneous Conversation 04:20 - 04:42]
Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board Oral History Collection. New Castle County Segregation and Segregation Interviews. Interviewee, Mr. Edmond Carpenter. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted on August 12th, 2001 on Fisher's Island, off the coast of Connecticut, in the home of Mr. Carpenter. These interviews are made possible through the Brown V Board Oral History research project, funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001, as part of a Brown versus Board of Education, National Historic Site or History Collection. Mr. Carpenter, what is your full name?
Edmond Carpenter: My full name is Edmond Nelson Carpenter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Nelson. And when you were born?
Edmond Carpenter: I was born in January of 1921.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were born?
Edmond Carpenter: I was actually born in Philadelphia, though my family was living in Wilmington at the time, [unintelligible 06:04] where I was born, but my mother's doctor lived in Philadelphia, and I was born en route to Philadelphia in a hill.
Oloye Adeyemon: Who were your-who were your parents?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, my father was Walter S. Carpenter Jr. And my mother was Mary Wootten, uh, W-O-O-T-T-E-N, Carpenter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Where were they born?
1
Edmond Carpenter: My mother was born in Laurel, Delaware, and my father was born in Wilkesboro, Pennsylvania, and in fact, came down from Wilkesboro to, uh, Burlington.
Oloye Adeyemon: That's Pennsylvania coast.
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, well sort of, it's, uh, a rather impoverished section of, uh, Pennsylvania now, noted, uh, I guess principally for coal mining.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when were they born?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, my-my father was born in 1888, and my-my mother was born about that time, 1988 or '89.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you have brothers and sisters?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I had two brothers. They're both deceased.
Oloye Adeyemon: Older or younger?
Edmond Carpenter: Both older.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were their names?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, W. Sam Carpenter, third, uh, named after my father and John Wilton Carpenter here.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did your, uh, father do in Wilmington?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, my f-father, uh, spent his entire business career with a DuPont company. Uh, he actually left college, he didn't graduate from college in order to take a job with the DuPont company, uh, in Chile, uh, where the DuPont company was then buying its nitrates for the manufactured explosives.
Uh, my mother actually was a, uh, governess with, uh, one of the DuPont families. She had, uh, wanted to leave, [unintelligible 08:09], which is a very tiny town in the southern part of Delaware, uh, and see more of the world. And she had an opportunity to work as a—what we would call a nanny today, uh, as a-as a part of the household of Irenee.
Oloye Adeyemon: Who?
Edmond Carpenter: Irenee.
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell it?
Edmond Carpenter: That's I-R-E-N-E-E.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And where did she live?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, she lived originally in Laurel and later out west, because her father was an Indian agent that was the person in charge of Indian reservation.
Oloye Adeyemon: Which reservation?
Edmond Carpenter: It was in South Dakota, but I don't really know which reservation.
Oloye Adeyemon: But as an adult, she worked as a governess?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Where-where did you say?
Edmond Carpenter: In Wilmington.
Oloye Adeyemon: In Wilmington.
Edmond Carpenter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And—
Edmond Carpenter: That's where my father met her.
Oloye Adeyemon: But he had been in Chile.
Edmond Carpenter: He was—yes. After he'd been in Chile for a couple of years, uh, he moved back to Wilmington and worked in the home office for DuPont company.
Oloye Adeyemon: When did he do that?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, uh, he was—DuPont company at that time was quite small, uh, compared to what it is today. And he was, uh, an executive with the company and later president.
Oloye Adeyemon: You say the President?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. And so, when you were born, they were both at that time, uh, working for DuPont [unintelligible 09:41]?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, when-when I was born, my mother had left to take care of my two older brothers. And, uh, so she was not working except as a homemaker.
Oloye Adeyemon: But your-your father—
Edmond Carpenter: My father was working until he passed.
Oloye Adeyemon: You, uh, yourself, uh, practiced law?
Edmond Carpenter: I did.
Oloye Adeyemon: With what firm?
Edmond Carpenter: With the firm, Richards, Layton & Finger in Wilmington.
Oloye Adeyemon: When did you start working?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I actually started my clerkship with them, uh, a clerkship was a mandatory requirement, uh, back in 1948. But I didn't really become a member of the bar until early 1939.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where'd you go to law school?
Edmond Carpenter: I went to Harvard Law School.
Oloye Adeyemon: And had you, uh, done your, uh—done any studies before going to law school-law school?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. Yeah, I was—I went to Princeton, uh, before the war, uh, and, uh, accelerated and ran into the Army, uh, and, uh, initially was a private in Texas, and then, uh, later as an officer in China.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what was your major at Princeton?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, well, I was in a program called Humanities Program, uh, and the principal said, that's my major, but it was really in English.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, in '49, you began working with the law firm with Wilmington?
Edmond Carpenter: Yeah. I really began in '48, uh, on the clerkship, I say, which was mandatory. And I met an—unpaid, at that time. It was considered a privilege to be a clerk for the law firm, uh, and most clerks were unpaid. Uh, and then I actually became employed with them at the end of my fellowship, which would've been after I passed the bar in, uh, ’49.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, the law firm was Bruce that you-that you joined, was considered under [unintelligible 12:00] law firm. Is that correct?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. But at that time, it was quite small office. There were nine of us, I think. And now it's over 100. Another thing, the story about that particular law firm was that, Aaron Finger was the first Jewish lawyer [unintelligible 12:16].
Aaron Finger had had an extraordinary career. First of all, his father was the mailman that delivered the mail to the man who became senior, uh, Robert Richard Senior, who died about 1952. Uh, and Aaron Finger, uh, as a younger, had to go to work. He had not graduated from high school when he left his father, the mailman, he knew Mr. Richards, who always delivered mail to him. Uh, asked if his son, who was proficient in shorthand, would come and work as a secretary for Mr. Richards.
So, he started there, uh, as a secretary. And then he asked Mr. Richards if he could a redo law, which at that time was an acceptable way of preparing for the bar exam. And, uh, he later took a, uh, college equivalency examination, and then the bar examination, passing both with flying colors and became the first, uh, Jewish lawyer in the state of Delaware. And shortly enough, which he became a judge. And this wasn't—he was the first-year judge too.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what year would those two events occur?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I think [crosstalk 13:36]. I think we're looking at about, uh, 1910, 1911, because I missed the book—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Edmond Carpenter: - for Mr. Finger. Uh, the reason I guessed that date is that I know that notwithstanding the fact that he was a judge, a-and therefore, except from the draft, and, uh, notwithstanding the fact that disposition to the judge was a matter of great pride for his family, uh, and for the Jewish community. Uh, he resigned to join the army when America entered the war in, uh, in the 19th century.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Edmond Carpenter: So, he was already a judge at that point. 1910 was the date [crosstalk 14:26]—
Oloye Adeyemon: Was a judge sometime later.
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And let me take this opportunity to say, uh, that many of the dates that we come to, uh, will be, uh, footnoted as part of the transcript, because it's only been a couple days since we first spoke.
Edmond Carpenter: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, um, you know, I come from Delaware, uh, straight to Connecticut without a lot of time to prepare myself really, uh, referred me to some historic society in Delaware. I'm not getting a chance to, which I wouldn't beginning this week. So, much of what we cannot, um, be specific about it this time will be including transcript [unintelligible 15:11].
Oloye Adeyemon: The—and I think it's also, uh, important to say here that it was through Aaron Finger's son—
Edmond Carpenter: [Unintelligible 15:22].
Oloye Adeyemon: - that I came to board, did an interview with us, and he, uh, served as, uh, Deputy Attorney General of the state Delaware during the time of Delaware case, and was asked to be a Special Deputy Attorney General or Deputy Specialist Counsel when they [unintelligible 15:42] court. Uh, but I understand that when he actually [unintelligible 15:46] Supreme Court during that time, you wrote a [unintelligible 15:50]—
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in that time. So, you-you, uh, succeeded?
Edmond Carpenter: I did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. And, um, I think it's, uh, you know, quite fortunate that not only [unintelligible 16:06] contact, you ensure [unintelligible 16:08] interview with this, especially that you're here [unintelligible 16:14] treatment.
Edmond Carpenter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: You get away from the officer. I think that's a lot about, you're-you're interested in this study [unintelligible 16:28] to help us. Uh, you never know when you're interviewing, what's not in the record, but I'm sure somewhat probably additional value. Uh, so getting back, uh, was Lewis Finger at that time also a member of [unintelligible 16:45], how did you do that?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. I-I should say that neither of us were really members of the firm. We were employees of the firm, the-the partners.
Oloye Adeyemon: Richard [unintelligible 16:55].
Edmond Carpenter: Richard, Layton & Finger and, uh, and, uh, Mr. Henry Canby.
Oloye Adeyemon: Those three.
Edmond Carpenter: Well, Richards, Layton & Finger plus a Henry Canby—
Oloye Adeyemon: Those are four.
Edmond Carpenter: - became a partner very soon after I joined.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what were the full names of the other partners?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, it was Robert Richards Senior. Uh, and there's a little confusion there because his son was also Robert Richards and became the primary player in the firm, uh, about the same time. Uh, the-the founder was Robert Richards, Sr. And the one I referred to Robert Richards, Jr became his successor, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: As Lewis Finger did his father.
Edmond Carpenter: As Lewis Finger did his father. There also was a Charles Richards I forgot, uh, about, Uh, Robert Richards, Sr. had two sons, uh, uh, brothers too, but two sons who were in the firm. Charles Richards and Robert Richards. And, uh, then there was a Caleb Layton, uh, who was the Layton in the firm. And he had a son, Rodney Layton, who joined the firm at the same time I did. Uh, and then, uh, Aaron Finger, uh, who had a son, Louis Finger.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you said who was an additional?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, Henry Canby, who was, uh, uh, a non-family member of the firm as I was, uh, and he became a partner about the time we're discussing, the early 1950s or late 40s.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, um, Lewis Fingers shared that his career was temporarily interrupted by the Korean war.
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, no. By World War II.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 18:46].
Edmond Carpenter: I was in the Korean War, but Lewis Finger, uh, was, uh, in the Air Force in World War II and actually was shot down over Yugoslavia.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 18:57]. And, um, yes, I—as a matter of fact, I do [unintelligible 19:02], it's shot down in World War II. So, you became Deputy Attorney General at under Attorney?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. Actually, the-the then Attorney General, H. Albert Young, had asked me if I would serve with him before, uh, I was recalled within, I remember a matter of days, or perhaps a week or so, uh, I received a telegram over back into the service.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you say back into the service, you had been in service—
Edmond Carpenter: In World War II.
Oloye Adeyemon: - for how long?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I-I actually enlisted in, uh, in 1942.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you were at Princeton.
Edmond Carpenter: I was at Princeton. Uh, I had, uh, previously signed up with the Canadian Air Force, but, uh, the United States had been to a treaty with Canada, transferred us all back into the draft bill. And, uh, so then I enlisted, uh, as a project in the Army in 1942. But they did not actually fall active duty until January of 1943. And I had accelerated. So, I had finished, uh, Princeton [unintelligible 20:23].
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, during the time prior to going off to school, uh, how, uh, seconded was the statement?
Edmond Carpenter: [Unintelligible 20:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: And that would include the school district? The school district [unintelligible 20:39].
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, is it correct that one difference between some areas of the south or particularly areas that are related to the stores of the South Carolina and Virginia, um, that Delaware, for the most part, had, uh, also segregated residential lands in South Carolina, for example, uh, Blacks and Whites lived pretty much in the same places in, uh—it's not an, it's not an integrated society, but I understand people in South Carolina, Virginia, that I spoken with yesterday, that, uh, picked South Carolina said that they did—growing up, they had White friends growing up.
Edmond Carpenter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And particularly those friendships might have been close until school.
Edmond Carpenter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then because of the Syria school system, their lives became more-more separate, you know, [unintelligible 21:45]. That did not exist in [unintelligible 21:50].
Edmond Carpenter: Well, in Wilmington, uh, my recollection is that the-the town was pretty well divided between the west side and the east side. And the east side was largely Black. And the, uh, the west side was largely White. But there-there were a number of separate communities within-within those areas. There was an Italian community, for example. It was a very large and prominent Polish community within Italian town of Wilmington.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, so, uh, there were those distinct areas. Herein lies another difference between Delaware and, uh, South Carolina, Virginia, in that, uh, there was a, uh, significant Polish community, immigrant, European immigrant community in the northern part of the state because of some of the industry.
Edmond Carpenter: Yes, I think-I think so.
Oloye Adeyemon: The Clark Company would've been one of those things?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: There also was a, uh, other jobs with people in the railroad and other—
Edmond Carpenter: There were.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were there any other major companies that they [unintelligible 22:53] in Northern Hemisphere?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, yeah. By that time, you mean, when I got back in 1948 [crosstalk 23:00]?
Oloye Adeyemon: Between 19 [unintelligible 23:01].
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, the DuPont Company, uh, as a result of an antitrust decision, was split into three companies. Uh, I would guess around 1911 and 1912, uh, the DuPont company, Hercules, Annapolis. And Hercules and Annapolis were large, substantial corporations.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. They were located there. Yes.
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, the, uh, the other industries there included a-a very substantial, uh, workshop of the company on the railroad. Uh, there was a-a leather industry, uh, and there were other, uh, perhaps smaller, but very active industries, and in the south of Delaware, very active agricultural industry.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is it safe to say that in many ways, uh, Northern Delaware is close to [unintelligible 24:06]?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, I think, uh, Northern Delaware, uh, always had, uh, a more industrialized and more northern oriented, uh, culture and atmosphere than southern Delaware, which was more agricultural and more southern [unintelligible 24:25]. And historically, in the Civil War, the north of Delaware sent troops to the Union forces, and the south of Delaware sent troops to the Confederacy, although the state itself remained union. And I think that, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Is-is that peninsula Delaware actually sits, uh, back there [crosstalk 24:49]—
Edmond Carpenter: About the Mason Dixon line, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Because it's not very far from that tip of Virginia here.
Interviewee 1: Well, it's Del—more of a peninsula city, Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, uh, all on the eastern shore. There's the eastern shore of Maryland, there's an eastern shore of Virginia.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, I asked that about, uh, the commission. 'Cause I understand a lot of the businesses that are operating in Delaware also operate in Pennsylvania, in some cases, southern Jersey. But even going back further, uh, I understand that there's a significant Quaker population in the [unintelligible 25:26] area—
Edmond Carpenter: There was.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that was connected to the Quaker population.
Edmond Carpenter: Absolutely.
Oloye Adeyemon: Whereas, uh, in the south [unintelligible 25:35], the-the culture developed quite differently. And is that cultural based in some cases, tobacco farm?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is it true from your understanding that, uh, most of the slaves that were held there, they were doing slavery in the southern part of the state?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, I think so. Uh, I've never really seen a rundown on that. Of course, the Quakers were very, uh, anti-slavery, and there were important stations of the Underground Railroad in, uh, in Delaware, particularly in Wilmington. On the other hand, there was also a reverse underground, [clears throat] excuse me. As you may know, Patty Cannon was a, uh, figure, uh, during slavery period, uh, who was kidnapping, uh, Blacks from the northern part of the country and selling them back in slavery in southern part. And she had an underground railroad.
Oloye Adeyemon: Fourteen miles of Bridgeville.
Edmond Carpenter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And she was, uh, I think in southern Delaware.
Edmond Carpenter: She was near Bridgeville, Delaware, which is in the south, as I recall. It was a cannons ferry at that time she lived there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I've made accounts of people who were free being kidnapped in Philadelphia. Yeah.
Edmond Carpenter: Yeah. And she had a barn with a false ceiling, and she kept the-the kidnapped, uh, Blacks up there and sold 'em back in slavery.
Oloye Adeyemon: And some of 'em were—had never been—people she was capturing escaped these [unintelligible 27:08].
Edmond Carpenter: That's what I understand. I’ve heard about that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, I’ve heard about that. I'm glad you mentioned that [unintelligible 27:14], because it gives us a sense of what Delaware was like.
Edmond Carpenter: And in a-in a way, Delaware was somewhat of a microcosm of the entirety United States, in that, its southern portion was, as I mentioned, agricultural and oriented toward the south, and the northern part was industrial and, uh, and really oriented towards the North.
Oloye Adeyemon: I want to jump ahead just for a second and ask if the response to—initiative response to desegregation that differed so much from the northern part of the state, southern part of the state was in part due to, uh, a greater, uh, importance on education in north because of the industry. And also, the fact that aside from considering the Black population, the North is more diverse and perhaps a little bit more progressive, better educated [unintelligible 28:29].
Edmond Carpenter: Well, uh, I don't know that I would describe it that way. I just feel that the southern part of the state, uh, at that time, uh, had a different attitude toward the-the Black population, uh, than existed, at least among the more sophisticated members of the community in the northern part of the state. Uh, whereas in the northern part of the state, uh, at least when I moved there, uh, we did see, uh, a social intercourse between, uh, Blacks and Whites. I think that would've been very much disagree in the southern state.
Oloye Adeyemon: I had heard it said that even, uh, Whitesman times did not—in the south did not have the opportunity for education of Blacks, um, Blacks—Whites in the south of the state did not have the opportunity that Whites in the northern part of the state might have, because DuPont-DuPont h-himself worked hard to improve, uh, the education in the remote areas. Would you say that that's [unintelligible 29:48]?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, when you say DuPont, I-I don't whether you're talking about the company or the individuals. Uh, both. Is that right? Well, the DuPont company went through a dramatic change in the early part of the 1900s. And 1902, the company was failing badly and was about to be sold to its largest competitor. And at that time, three DuPonts, uh, got together. Uh, it's quite a long story, but just to abbreviated that, uh, Pierre DuPont, uh, TC DuPont, uh, and Alfred I DuPont, uh, got together and basically purchased the entire company, uh, because they purchased part of it, uh, the stock and a lot of their own leverage to buy out.
Uh, the stock was held widely by the other members of the family still. But, uh, these were the three prominent new members. And I think all of them were—all three of them were quite progressive. But, uh, TC DuPont, uh, wanted to unify the state, and, uh, he was reported to a state at one time, he was gonna build a-a monument to himself 100 miles high and lay it down the length of the state.
And he built his own personal expense and really under his own personal supervision, a highway from the northern part of the state to the southern part of the state, to help and-and to eliminate the isolation the southern part of the state had, uh, and to give the farmers, uh, access to the markets.
Pierre DuPont was very much involved personally in, uh, improving the school district. Uh, I mean, all the school districts, but particularly in Newcastle County. And he personally built out of his own pocket, a number of the schools. And, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: They include [unintelligible 31:48].
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. Uh, uh, and, uh, and not only that, but, uh, because there seemed to be, uh, insufficient funds to operate the schools, he is the one who established, uh, the income tax and actually became tax commissioner personally, uh, to raise the money to see that the [crosstalk 32:10]. He was very active in the political sphere, but mostly as a-as a financier, uh, of the school system. And because of him, uh, the school system did enormously improve, although I think it did—started from very low level.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would you say that, um, this effort to unify the s-state was not just geographical, but engulfed with politics as well? That the state was somewhat divided into two.
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, I don't know that at that time, and then I really have to get that information from somebody else. I'm-I'm just not sure. Uh, I'm sure there was politics involved in the things that they did too, obviously you had to get state approval to go the highway, uh, and, uh, state approval will go the schools. But, uh, I don't know that it was Republican versus Democrat politics, but, uh, rather an effort by a man who had the most benevolent intentions to upgrade the state.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I'll-I'll have to, uh, do—add that to, uh, Mr. Footnote, but I-I had heard that one of the things that had been difficult until serious efforts made state was some of the vast vestiges of the—friction existed from the period [unintelligible 33:44]. Some families, some kids [unintelligible 33:51].
Well, that's, um, definitely, uh, very helpful. When you—well, you know, came back from World War II, uh, what would you say that the feelings were at that point in regards to segregation in the Black community? How did—was it something in the government [unintelligible 34:26]? Was it something that people—uh, did you have a sense, thinking back, that people were just accepting and taking it for granted? Um, were there any things that you noticed, uh, could feel in the White community that would suggest that without court legislation and other things that things were moving in the right direction?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, uh, shortly after, uh, I, uh, got back to Wilmington, uh, I joined the Active Young Republicans. And, uh, in the, uh, next campaign, which would've been, uh, the campaign of 1950, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 35:20].
Edmond Carpenter: - the Attorney Generals elected. Uh, the Active Young Republicans actually proposed that the platform for the Republican Party include, uh, the desegregation of the schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: This would've been the Republican Party of Delaware?
Edmond Carpenter: No, this was the Active Young Republicans, which was part of the Republican Party of Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: For Delaware. Okay.
Edmond Carpenter: For Delaware. Uh, so there was, uh, at that time, uh, a-a movement among some young people that were interested in politics in desegregating the schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: How was [unintelligible 36:03]?
Edmond Carpenter: Uh, that was rejected. Uh, on-on the other hand, I think, uh, a number of people kept up that drum beat. And of course, uh, that rest the year of, uh, Chancellor [unintelligible 36:21] first decision—
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 36:23].
Edmond Carpenter: Yeah. Uh, yes. When he-when he was the first judge in the country to order the immediate desegregation of the previous of law in White University.
Oloye Adeyemon: During that period, uh, that it's safe to say the White community, and even in South Carolina, you surely know this, but there were more—there was more evidence in the White community in Delaware than perhaps in south [unintelligible 37:01], uh, of the desire to change. There would not have been something as much of a Black and White issue as it might be. [Unintelligible 37:11].
Edmond Carpenter: I think the desire for change was among young people. Uh, uh, at that time, uh, I was in my 20s. Uh, I had a very close associate in this, uh, effort to desegregate skills. Uh, Hal Haskell, uh, who, uh, later became, uh, a Congressman from Delaware and Mayor of Wilmington. Uh, and we advocated it, but I would say we were a minority at that time. But I-I want to emphasize that that feeling was abroad, that the—that this was wrong, the segregation.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what were some studies with you said the person's name is—
Edmond Carpenter: Hal. It's Haskell. It's actually Harry G Haskell Jr.
Oloye Adeyemon: And he held—what was his?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, he later—uh, first of all, he was very active also in the, uh, Active Young Republicans. I was the president. Uh, and he mainly later become president, but he did later run for and was elected to Congress, uh, full of district, [crosstalk 38:23]. Well-well, Delaware's only one district.
Oloye Adeyemon: District.
Edmond Carpenter: We have such a small, uh, population. We only have one, uh, representative. Uh, and then, uh, still later, surprisingly, uh, in later, the fact that it's overwhelmingly democratic, he was elected Mayor of Wilmington.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, the state was Republican by and large during the years around that time.
Edmond Carpenter: I would describe it as a swing state.
Oloye Adeyemon: A swing state.
Edmond Carpenter: Always a swing. We frequently had—and I think we had at that time a Republican Attorney General.
Oloye Adeyemon: He's elected. And a Governor.
Edmond Carpenter: And a governor who was a Democrat.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And what was the name?
Edmond Carpenter: I think Cavel, Governor Carvel came in, uh, about that time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Yes. So, there-there it—politically then it was a situation with a balance of power, democracy [unintelligible 39:19].
Edmond Carpenter: It switched back and forth. We had a Republican senator, uh, Senator Williams, and we had a Democratic Senator, Alan Freer. And we had, uh, at that time a Republican, uh, congressman, uh, Kale Fox, who was, uh, uh, later a senator and was replaced by, uh, a Senator Black.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, is it safe to say in that kind of environment that something as volatile as [unintelligible 39:47] just 'cause-'cause of the nature of the parties [unintelligible 39:51]?
Edmond Carpenter: Good question. It would've been politicized, but I-I would not say as a political Republican versus Democrat, but as candidate against candidate. So, even Republican candidates would use that as issue, might—well, and progress on-on either side.
Oloye Adeyemon: On either side, yeah. Was it much of an independent—was independent vote [unintelligible 40:17]?
Edmond Carpenter: Yes. The independent vote was over-overwhelmed. It always has been.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 40:22].
Edmond Carpenter: E-exactly.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, this is real-real-real helpful. Um, is there anything in the last few minutes we have about the first part of the interview, is there anything else that you can add that you feel might be background before we focus our attention on just the court case [unintelligible 40:48]?
Edmond Carpenter: Well, I know we're gonna talk later about Chancellor [unintelligible 40:52], but I think we've got to, uh, realize that in making this initial decision, uh, in the University of Railroad case and also his related decision to sort of reinforce that in the school system, he was definitely, uh, killing any chance he had, of being confirmed for a position on the, uh, Supreme Court of Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, did that seem to [unintelligible 41:22]?
Edmond Carpenter: It did not.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you took a gold stand politically like [unintelligible 41:27]?
Edmond Carpenter: Absolutely. And I think this was recognized by everybody including him, that, uh, if he decided the case that way, that was the end of this career, uh, because the legislature under no circumstances, confirmed him, uh, for a higher position. So, I guess his opponent recognized that he was [unintelligible 41:49].
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
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