Oral History Interview with Carol Nutter

Carol Nutter

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ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH CAROL NUTTER
SEPTEMBER 18, 2001
INTERVIEWED BY OLOYE ADEYEMON
The transcript below corresponds to the media embedded on this page

BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

EDITORIAL NOTICE

The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. Due to the sensitive nature of the interview, it may contain inflammatory language that some find offensive. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition.

ABSTRACT

Carol Nutter was born in Topeka, Kans., in 1942. Her parents were Richard William Lawton Maude Sudduth Lawton who had nine children; Richard, Constance, Gloria, Carol, Calvin, Melvin, Marvin, Tellie and Phyllis. Nutter was one of the plaintiffs of the Brown v. Board of Education case. Nutter attended the segregated Buchanan Elementary in Topeka, Kans., and was her mother signed the Brown petition on her behalf. She would go on to Topeka High and Clark Business School before becoming a licensed cosmetologist. Nutter explains the discrimination in Topeka children of color faced in Topeka, such as her grades being changed from A’s to D’s after the fact when she transitioned from elementary school to high school.

People mentioned: Richard Lawton, Maude Lawton, Constance Lawton, Gloria Lawton, Calvin Lawton, Melvin Lawton, Tellie Lawton, Phyllis Lawton, Linda Brown, David Torbet Nutter, Mamie Williams, Floyd King, Isaac Nutter.

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Transcript

Oloye Adeyemon:        Brown v. Board Oral History Collection, Topeka, Kansas school segregation. The segregation interviews, interviewer—interviewee Mrs. Carol K. Nutter, interviewer Oloye Adeyemon for the National Parks Service. Interview conducted at the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic site in Topeka, Kansas on September 18, 2001.

These interviews are made possible through the Brown v. Board of Education Oral History research project funded by the National Parks Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic site, Oral History project. Mrs. Nutter, what is your full name?

Carol Nutter:               Ms. Carol K. Nutter, N-U-T-T-E-R.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And your maiden name?

Carol Nutter:               It was Carol K. Lawton, L-A-W-T-O-N.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And what is your birth date?

Carol Nutter:               June 8, 1942.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And where you were born?

Carol Nutter:               I was born in Topeka, Kansas at Christ Hospital.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And what are your parents’ names?

Carol Nutter:               Maude E. Sudduth Lawton and Richard William Lawton.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And where your parents born?

Carol Nutter:               My father was born in Clay Center, Kansas. Uh, it was a pioneer place where he was born. My mother was born in Coweta, Oklahoma, Creek Territory Indian Nation, uh, Native American.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. So, she was born on the reservation?

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And so, she, uh—they were part of the Creek Nation?

Carol Nutter:               Well, she has two or three nations.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, some of the Sudduth’s are Creek.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Was she—

Carol Nutter:               But hers was Citizens Band.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - I see. And she came—do you know what age she was when she came to Topeka?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, about four years old.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. So, she was raised in Topeka?

Carol Nutter:               She was raised in Topeka.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Your father was not?

Carol Nutter:               My father was raised in Clay Center.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. He came as an adult?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, he came here as an adult.

Oloye Adeyemon:        All right. So, your parents met here in Topeka?

Carol Nutter:               I think it was Topeka. My Aunt Ella I believe introduced my—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               - my-my mother to dad.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What did your father do for a living?

Carol Nutter:               My father was a contractor/turned carpenter.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And your mother?

Carol Nutter:               My mother was a housewife but, uh, mainly she helped in the neighborhood different people. She would babysit with people’s children. And she’d also go out west of town and work for doctors and judges, uh, to dust and clean the houses.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. What church did your family belong to?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, I belonged to, uh, 12th Street Church of God.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Is that what—is that the church that your parents belonged to?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, yes. Uh, actually my grandparents founded that church, which is now Lane Street Chapel. Uh, Dora Culpepper, uh, Sudduth, which was a Black-Black Hawk Indian, um, uh, founded that church with my, uh, grandfather who was, uh, German, French, and Indian.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, and I didn’t know later years that I had German but, uh, we’re just Heinz 57. And I think the United States now is Heinz 57.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm, that’s so true.

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, you, um, you-you were a member of that church.

Carol Nutter:               Yes, I was.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. And what neighborhood—uh, now you were a member of this church, but so were your parents. They were a member of that same church?

Carol Nutter:               Uh-uh, yes, yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter:               My—well, dad was Methodist. He-he belonged to the Methodist Church.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What church?

Carol Nutter:               He—and that would be the one in Clay Center. He did not attend church much. He believed it in his heart, but he believed he read the bible, and he’s—a lotta times I think he was attending church, and we didn’t know it. [Crosstalk 03:42].

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, your mother was the active participant?

Carol Nutter:               My mother was the active person.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. What neighborhood did your family live in?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, we lived in West Topeka. I think they call it Tennessee Town, or something.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               Yeah, Tennessee Town.

Oloye Adeyemon:        You’re on Bush Street?

Carol Nutter:               Uh-uh, yes, 14, uh-uh, in Munson there on-on 14-14th and Munson. She moved later to 14, what was it, 1417—1422 was the original.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, it’s—the house is not there anymore. They demolished it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, these-these two locations were close together?

Carol Nutter:               Yes, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Um, what school did students that lived in that neighborhood go to?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, the students lived, um—the students that, uh—well, they lived all around. It’s depending on what students you’re talking about. Some of 'em lived on [crosstalk 04:20].

Oloye Adeyemon:        No, the students that lived, um, in Tennessee Town.

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What elementary school did they attend?

Carol Nutter:               Oh, you’re asking me about the school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Yes.

Carol Nutter:               Oh, Buchanan School.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Buchanan School.

Carol Nutter:               Buchanan School we attended. Well, and, uh, the address was wrong. I said 1470. It’s 1414 Munson is what it is now where mother lived when she passed away. I’m sorry.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, during the time you were in school, that was the area your family lived in.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        How far did you have to go to get to elementary school?

Carol Nutter:               Well, it wasn’t very far from our home. Because we lived on Munson, and it was on Buchanan, 1195 Buchanan as I remember. Uh-huh. And, uh, it was about two, I’d say, one, two—two and a half almost three blocks.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. Did other students that went to-that went to Buchanan with you have to travel a longer distance?

Carol Nutter:               Yeah, some of 'em did. But most of 'em lived in the area.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Most of 'em.

Carol Nutter:               That I knew.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. In your case, you didn’t have to pass a white school to get to school did you?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, no. But, uh, no, not really.

Oloye Adeyemon:        But there were some students that did?

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. When you were going to school, did some of the students that you went to school with catch buses?

Carol Nutter:               Yeah. They did have bussing then. There were several buses that would come.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, they had buses [fading voice 05:23].

Oloye Adeyemon:        But there were some students that either had to walk a long distance—

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - or catch the bus.

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Only because they could not go to the white school that was closest to their house.

Carol Nutter:               Yes. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. Before we talk about the lawsuit that your mother was a petitioner who had signed your name to—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - uh, that became the local Brown v. Board of Education, Topeka case that was heard in Federal District Court, Topeka. Then went on to became a part-part of the class action suit, um, that was heard by the Supreme Court.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh, I wanna talk a little bit about your early memories of living in Topeka as a segregated city.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What were your earliest memories of segregation?

Carol Nutter:               Well, um, me myself, I really didn’t have too many problems. I-I know now they have a, uh—we used to go out and eat sometimes, and they would serve you in sacks, uh, and they would—

Oloye Adeyemon:        You said they—

Carol Nutter:               - tell you—they would say, “You couldn’t sit here, but you could take it to.”

Oloye Adeyemon:        - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Now that used to be the old Bobo’s. I’m not trying to give them a bad name. Because I still know a-a lot of nice people that are Bobo. Nice Bobo people. They never told me that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        This was a restaurant you’re saying?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, this is a restaurant.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Owned by?

Carol Nutter:               It’s not too far from the Buchanan School.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, it was owned by the Bobo people.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Um, however, they always treated me pretty nice. However, I knew that when I came in, you know, they were gonna serve us in sacks. They also did Mexicans like that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               It wasn’t just people that were Indian or black.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               They also did Mexican, anybody that was a minority.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh. And, um—

Oloye Adeyemon:        What about the movie theater?

Carol Nutter:               - uh, the movie theaters I remember, uh, the Grand Theater, all of the, um, the black people, uh, would sit upstairs.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And then the-then the whites would sit down.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Well, at that particular time there was a man named Dr. Johnson, who was a black doctor here in town.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I heard him say one day when they told him to go upstairs, he says, and I was about, let me see, eight or nine then.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Were you in the movie house at that time?

Carol Nutter:               Uh-uh, yes. And he says, uh, “I’m Dr. Johnson, and I’m gonna sit downstairs.” I said-I said, “You know what Dr. Johnson, I’m gonna sit here with ya.”

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               So, I went and sat right next to Dr. Johnson. And I was a person that would not let anybody hold me back.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Because of color of your skin, or anything like that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I would always sit where I wanted. And they wouldn’t say anything to me.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Did they say anything to you and Dr. Johnson as you [crosstalk 0741]?

Carol Nutter:               No, they didn’t.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Did you watch the movie [crosstalk 07:43]?

Carol Nutter:               Because I went and sat right down there with him, and watched it till it was over. And I forgot what the movie was, but I remember I was sitting there watching.

Oloye Adeyemon:        All eyes were on you I’m sure.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, that-that, uh—

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - so, were—there were segregated conditions.

Carol Nutter:               Yes. If you were black, you sat up in the [unintelligible 08:04] up there, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Now what was—

Carol Nutter:               It’s on the second floor, wasn’t it, Tommy?

Oloye Adeyemon:        - was there anything that your parents had instilled in you that caused you to sit with Dr. Johnson? Was it anything that your parents?

Carol Nutter:               Well, the way my parents raised me, and it’s the same that I’ve done with my children, I never raised my children to be inferior. That’s why I have a daughter that’s a news commentator today. That’s why-why my daughter, Porsha, is the same way, and all of my children that I raised. I have another daughter, Monica. Uh, they-they just don’t have that, uh—she lives out in Kansas City here. Uh, they don’t have that feeling of, uh, being, uh, left out. You should never raise your children to be inferior, whatever-whatever nationality they are, black.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What contributed to your attitude, to your feeling? Was it something your parents?

Carol Nutter:               Because my father and mother never talked about color much unless the condition came up, and dad said, “You could be whatever you wanna be, and if somebody asks you what nationality you are, you don’t have to be ashamed of that. But always put down American citizen. Because that’s what you are.” See, there’s only one race, and that’s the human race. That’s the way I’ve always believed about everybody.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Is that the way your parents taught you?

Carol Nutter:               That’s the way I was taught. I was taught that way not to think you’re better than somebody because you’re black, or whether a person’s white.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And because I have so many colors in my family, I cannot be prejudiced, you know, [crosstalk 09:24].

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, you know, it was not only that you shouldn’t—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - uh, feel you-you—so, I’m hearing you say that you-you were taught to not feel ashamed.

Carol Nutter:               Not ashamed of anything.

Oloye Adeyemon:        But also—

Carol Nutter:               Whatever race you are.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - but also—

Carol Nutter:               You shouldn’t be ashamed of that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - not to be prejudiced against others.

Carol Nutter:               Not to be prejudiced against others. No, dad never taught us to be prejudiced at all.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, when this court case came about, your family’s involvement in it would you say that it had as much to do with changing the conditions in the schools as also changing people’s attitudes?

Carol Nutter:               Yes. My mother had a lot to do with it. She felt that people that no matter what, uh, nationality they are, she’d be able to go to a black school. And I—as I remember, my brother and my sister, Gloria, were the first two, uh, minority people to attend the, um, uh, what’s that, the name of that school over there, uh, next to our house. It’s—I’m trying to recall it now. The children went there to that school, the grade school, the white grade school over there. Was it Lowman? Was it Lowman Hill?

Female Voice:             Lowman Hill.

Carol Nutter:               Yeah, yeah. The Lowman Hill School, as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, these would’ve been younger brothers and sisters of you?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, well, Gloria is older. But I think Gloria was the first person to go to, uh, Boswell Junior High. That’s what I’m trying to say. And Marvin was the one for Lowman Hill, as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. He was a younger one?

Carol Nutter:               Yes. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. How many brothers and sisters do you have?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, well there was—altogether there’s nine of us. It was five girls, and four boys.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What are their names?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, Richard was my oldest brother. He died in 1973. And then Constance just died almost three years ago in February. She’s been dead about two and a half years now. That’s my oldest sister.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And, uh, she helped to raise us, a very good sister, and I do miss her.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I love all my family, but I was-I was very close with my sister, Constance.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. And the other brothers and sisters you mentioned?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, yes. There’s Calvin, uh, Melvin, Marvin. And then, um, Calvin, Melvin, Marvin, and Richard. Richard’s the one that’s-that’s dead.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And then there’s, uh-uh, Tellie, they call her Tellie, Phyllis, uh, Constance as I said before, she’s deceased. Gloria, and then Vic-Victoria.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And you said Melvin?

Carol Nutter:               Melvin. Now he lives out in, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon:        There were two, Melvin.

Carol Nutter:               - Melvin and Marvin, and then Calvin.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               Calvin is the one that’s the artist in the family. He’s a great artist. Everybody knows him.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               He can draw you in about three minutes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So-so, all but two of them were younger than you?

Carol Nutter:               Yes. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. And you entered elementary school in what year?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, well I went—it was the Brown, uh, v., uh, '54 decision. So, it was '54 and '55 that I was in there with, uh, Linda Brown, as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What year did you enter elementary school?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, I entered when I was four going on five years old.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What year would that have been?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, that was—see, I was born in '42, so that’d be '43, '44, '45, '46, or 7.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, about '46?

Carol Nutter:               '47, about '46 or [crosstalk 12:04].

Oloye Adeyemon:        '47. Okay. Uh-huh. So, you had two siblings that were already in school at that point.

Carol Nutter:               Yes. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        When did the last of the youngest of your siblings, can you approximate when they entered school, the youngest of your brothers and sisters?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, yeah. Well, they entered school probably the same time I did, 5. And then, uh, Marvin was about 5 when he entered.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What year would your youngest brother or sister have entered?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, okay.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Approximately.

Carol Nutter:               Let’s see. Marvin is 51. So, that would be—I don’t keep up with them too much.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               He doesn’t-he doesn’t—they don’t [crosstalk 12:32].

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, he was born in 1950s. So, he probably would enter school about 1955.

Carol Nutter:               Well, it must be a little later than that wouldn’t it?

Oloye Adeyemon:        Um, okay. 50, well around there, '56. 'Cause he was born—you say he’s 51?

Carol Nutter:               Yeah. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, he would’ve been born in 1950.

Carol Nutter:               Yeah. See I’m-I’m 59. I was born in '42.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               So, he would’ve been in—he’d been in later than that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, you had some children that graduated before the case?

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And you had some that were in school during the case.

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And you’re saying that some of your younger siblings actually experienced the outcome.

Carol Nutter:               Yes, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Where they actually were the integrations.

Carol Nutter:               Yes, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, for you, you were right there in the middle—

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - during the time that it happened.

Carol Nutter:               Yes. I was in the fifth or sixth grade with, uh, Linda Brown. She was in my class.

Oloye Adeyemon:        She was in your class—

Carol Nutter:               Yes, she was. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - at that time at Buchanan?

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm, at Buchanan School. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. Now what was the education like, putting-putting aside segregation conditions and so on, what was it like, you know, [crosstalk 13:37]?

Carol Nutter:               I-I do believe that I got good education at Buchanan. I’ll tell you one thing that I didn’t particularly care for because it many-many times I—my math, I always liked add-adding, subtracting, multiplication, and division. But when it came to fractures—fractions, I believe that the black people did not teach-teach it well. And I was very confused until I went to, uh, like about the 12th or maybe the first year of college when I had the technical college—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               - in the business education at Clarks Business School, I learned the fractions then.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Because fractions somehow confused me. I don’t know what it was about fractions.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Did—

Carol Nutter:               But the reading I-I found out that I had the best principal, Ms. Montgomery. She was very strict, but she was very—I-I really liked Ms. Montgomery.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, our black teacher, you know. Um, I thought she—it was just great, but I think that they themselves didn’t know very much about fractions.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, was this—

Carol Nutter:               And so, I was very confused about fractions—

Oloye Adeyemon:        - was this a problem—

Carol Nutter:               - by the time I was 12th—in the 12th grade, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - was this a problem that you noticed other black students having? It wasn’t just you?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, well, I don’t know—

Oloye Adeyemon:        [Crosstalk 14:36].

Carol Nutter:               - about that. There was a lot of black people that didn’t like math. Most of 'em would like to read. You know what I mean? I-I think so.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, you-you think of all the areas—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - the area that you felt you did not—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - the education that you got was not up to the standard of everything else [crosstalk 14:54]?

Carol Nutter:               I think it was up to the standard. Yes, I do believe that the black school was up to the standard.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               But I think it was something in fractions that they didn’t—couldn’t explain.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               And maybe in those days they probably kept thinking only know so much.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter:               Because you know how you weren’t allowed to read many years before that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Right. Right.

Carol Nutter:               If they caught you looking at a book, you know, in those days.

Oloye Adeyemon:        But in general you-you thought pretty highly of the teachers that you had?

Carol Nutter:               Oh, I thought the teachers were superb.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I thought I learned a lot about reading there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               The reading and all I thought it was so beautiful, and I love to read.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Now, right now, even though I didn’t like math [unintelligible 15:24] when I went and took the business math, I feel a lot better about math than I did. It’s because it was taught wrong.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               But that’s the only thing I found that was wrong about it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               And I think it was because something that they did themselves and didn’t realize it. 'Cause they weren’t allowed to do these things.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see.

Carol Nutter:               You understand? That-that was way back.

Oloye Adeyemon:        No, I understand.

Carol Nutter:               And people in their day would—you could hardly even read in certain eras.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Right.

Carol Nutter:               Before the 1900s, or even in the 1900s it was bad, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Sure, sure. Sure. So—

Carol Nutter:               So, it’s no—I think it was a good school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I’m proud to have gone to that school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm, good.

Carol Nutter:               I’m proud to have gone there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now, what do you think about the attitude of the teachers about teaching, forgetting the subjects for a minute?

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What do you think about their attitude about teaching? Uh, what do you think about, uh, their concern or lack of concern for the students?

Carol Nutter:               I think in that day if we had more schools like Buchanan as far as having morals, these people really taught morals. That’s what I liked about 'em. Uh, me myself, they used to have electric paddles, and they really wanted me to be something. I’m gonna tell you, what-what was the teacher’s name, Mr. Ross. I was in the—about the fourth grade at that time. And he came along with a book and hit me on top of my head.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And then made Mamie Williams, she would come up and say, “Get to work, Carol K. This is the way you make your As. This is the way you make your Os. Get to work.” And she’d be standing me up there, you know, and everything. And so, they got this electric paddle. I was about in the sixth grade then with Linda, fifth or sixth grade. And they tried the-the electric paddle out on me. I was the first person they tried out. And my sister said, “You must not have told mother about it. 'Cause she sure would’ve came up to that school.” I said, “Well, they did that to let me know that if I did anything wrong, this is what I was gonna get this electric paddle.”

And I-I think taking the old hickory stick out of the school system, I think that’s why the children are so—God said spare the rod, and spoil the child. But now some people don’t know how to whip children. I chastised my children. I didn’t beat them, but I chastised, and I believe it was a little switch, you know, every once in a while I’d take it around for the girls. The boy I didn’t have to do anything with him. He was spoiled. Uh, he-he—of course, he died when he was very young, my son.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm, sorry.

Carol Nutter:               And, uh, mom had some leaky furnaces, and they could not save my son. Uh, three weeks later I got sick. They rushed me to St. Francis. I was under oxygen for eight hours.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What was his-what was [crosstalk 17:40]?

Carol Nutter:               His name was David Torbet Nutter. And he would’ve been 30 if he’d lived.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What was the illness that you said?

Carol Nutter:               The—my-my, uh, son, uh, was asphyxiated by gas.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Oh.

Carol Nutter:               Because the [unintelligible 17:50] had put something in, uh, crooked or something. And the guy that put 'em in it was a combustion chamber, and when they did the autopsy they found out that’s what it was [crosstalk 17:57].

Oloye Adeyemon:        Put it in crooked in what?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, in the—it was, uh, a furnace. It was—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Your furnace in your home?

Carol Nutter:               - it was in my mom’s home, mom and dad’s home.

Oloye Adeyemon:        That’s why you also got sick.

Carol Nutter:               Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        For as children you—y’all got sick from this [crosstalk 18:07].

Carol Nutter:               Uh, well the-well the kids slept-slept in a separate room. The other children weren’t hurt.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see.

Carol Nutter:               I didn’t get hurt until a later time, which they had [crosstalk 18:14].

Oloye Adeyemon:        But your mother got sick?

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And your-your brother?

Carol Nutter:               Um—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Wait, your-your son.

Carol Nutter:               - and my son. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Your son.

Carol Nutter:               It’s what my son died from it. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               He would’ve, uh, see—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Your mother was—

Carol Nutter:               - we found-we found him dead. I thought he was just-he was just woke up, and he was just smiling.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - your mother was living with—

Carol Nutter:               - I thought he was smiling. Because he had, you know, his teeth were showing and everything.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - so your mother was living with you.

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh. Yeah, my mother. I was—

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see.

Carol Nutter:               - living with my mother. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. I understand.

Carol Nutter:               And so, we found him dead that morning. But it was just sad, and sometimes I think about him, you know—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm, sure.

Carol Nutter:               - very much. But this-this time he would be about 30 years old if he lived.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Right. So, during the time of the, uh, court case—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - one of the things that was different in the elementary schools that you attended them, I take it would be true of other black elementary schools here in Kansas—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - uh, Topeka.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        There was discipline.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And the teachers really I guess didn’t—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - take any nonsense from the students.

Carol Nutter:               No, they didn’t. Uh-huh, they—uh, Warren Johnson was also in my class, uh, Barry Johnson’s brother.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I always thought that, uh, Ms., uh, what I’m trying to say, what did I say her name was, Ms. McGovern. I’m trying to get back to Ms. McGovern now.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I always thought she was a little hard on Warren with the spanking she gave him.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               But in those days, those kind of spankings they didn’t make any difference.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               You’d go home, and you’d get another spanking if you did something.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. You sometimes wouldn’t wanna tell your parents you got spanked.

Carol Nutter:               Yeah. They would take—no.

Oloye Adeyemon:        'Cause then they’d check into it, and it’d be time for you to bend over again.

Carol Nutter:               Yes. Well, mother didn’t really like 'em to whip us much.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               She’d be up there, you know. She was pretty tough.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               She didn’t want 'em touch her kids, you know. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. But you—I think I’m hearing-I’m hearing you say—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - that the children didn’t misbehave.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And the teachers took an active interest in them learning. Is that true?

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh. Yeah. I went—uh-huh. I remember that one day when my sister, there was a lady named Ms. Oglesby that was a teacher there. And, uh, Gloria did something. And she grabbed her around the throat. And, of course, mother turned the school out because Gloria couldn’t talk for three days. And she came up and turned the school out, and they closed the school. So, that to me is why I know that mother was—that was the only incident that had happened. And, uh-uh, my mother was very tough.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Sounds like it.

Carol Nutter:               She didn’t get the credit that she should’ve had. You understand what I’m saying?

Oloye Adeyemon:        Your mother’s name is?

Carol Nutter:               Is Maude E. Lawton.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh. But she was the person—

Oloye Adeyemon:        When you’re looking through her record—

Carol Nutter:               - that would turn something out. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - so, is she—

Carol Nutter:               She was [distorted audio 20:33].

Oloye Adeyemon:        - she was—she-she made a name for herself then.

Carol Nutter:               Yes. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Not only in—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - terms of this particular case—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - but she has been fighting anything—

Female Voice:             For hurting her child.

Carol Nutter:               Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - that she felt was an injustice—

Carol Nutter:               That’s right.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - in the schools before that.

Carol Nutter:               She was like that. Yeah. She was like that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               My mother was just that way.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Wow.

Carol Nutter:               Hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So—

Carol Nutter:               That was the only incident that was wrong. And then they didn’t let her teach anymore after that. I think she went to California.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - they—

Carol Nutter:               'Cause they were-they were strict about the rules at that school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - uh-huh.

Carol Nutter:               They taught morals.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter:               And I don’t have anything bad to say about Buchanan School.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Carol Nutter:               A lot of things that I know now I know that I learned it from Buchanan. I was taught that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Good. That’s good.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, yes. I think it was a great school, and I’m proud to have gone there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. So, the problem that your mother had initially—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - was the inequity—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - that the schools were not—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - equal, the services were not equal.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And children were being forced to go to schools in many cases that were not—

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - the schools closes to their homes.

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        When you got to junior high school—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - and high school, the conditions were much different weren’t they?

Carol Nutter:               Yes. Yes, they were.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Because now you were in an environment where you were a minority.

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And the teaching staff was entirely white.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What was that like?

Carol Nutter:               Well, I’m gonna tell you what happened to me, and I thought it was very strange. I never told anybody about it. Because my grades were pretty good in grade school. I wasn’t the greatest, but I was above an average student, B, A, or A, B, C. Uh, the odd part about it I always made As in English. When I got to, uh, junior high school, Mrs. Gunther was my teacher. So, I remember she-she really liked me. She was a white teacher.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               But when I got to Topeka High, and they transferred my grades—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               - they had all Ds on 'em. And I don’t understand why they did.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I think it was out of prejudice. Because I always made As, you know, in, uh, in the English and stuff. Even though I didn’t like math, but I never failed anything. You understand what I’m saying? Then I went on into, um—then I took, uh, tailoring, and different things in the 11th grade. And then I went on and I married my husband—my ex-husband, Floyd King is deceased now. Because I had a second husband, uh, Isaac Nutter. And we’re divorced. I’ve been divorced now since '81.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Um, he was a serviceman 25 years. Uh, so basically, uh, I think that they were so prejudiced they were even giving you the wrong grades at that time. If you made an A, they’d lower it a little—a notch. But there’s other people that [crosstalk 23:00].

Oloye Adeyemon:        When you went to high school?

Carol Nutter:               Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               My—all my grades that were transferred from junior high, which I did very good, was just transferred to Topeka High, and how could one person that’s always made As, uh-uh, you understand what I’m saying, and Bs in English, come up with all Ds when they transferred to-to the 10th grade.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And as a result of—

Carol Nutter:               Yes. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - as a result of your junior high transcripts—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - were you put in a different class than you would’ve been put in had you come in with As, Bs, and Cs?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, yes, probably. I mean, uh, no, I-I never—I was always in the same class with anybody. Never was in a lower grade of a class.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, they didn’t have—

Carol Nutter:               I went to the regular classes with other people.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - so, they didn’t have—

Carol Nutter:               You understand what I’m saying.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - special classes for those that were advanced in their studies—

Carol Nutter:               Hm-mmm. Hm-mmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - or special classes for those that were slow in respects in Topeka High?

Carol Nutter:               Yeah. They—yeah, they did have that. They had that I think.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. Did they have an advanced class?

Carol Nutter:               Yes, they did.

Oloye Adeyemon:        In Topeka High?

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Were you a member of that advanced class?

Carol Nutter:               Now, I did—I was in the glee club. 'Cause the-the grade started changing. I got the Cs and Bs then.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               But, you know, to raise 'em. And I was in the glee club, uh, when I was in 11th grade I believe. And then my picture were taken in the 10th grade. I still have that picture I think. Um, then, uh, I had, uh, what do you call, hay fever. Uh, latter years I had to get out earlier. So, I had to take a GED, but then I went on to college. And my grades came up to Bs and Cs.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I became a licensed cosmetologist in my late years, and those grades were very high.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I, uh, graduated with a, uh, a 100 percent in anatomy, and 90 percent, uh, in the written, and the-and the overall score was like 86 with all the technical things that I had to do.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Yeah. Going back to Topeka High—

Carol Nutter:               [Crosstalk 24:35].

Oloye Adeyemon:        - the reason I asked that—

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - uh, there were school systems—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - uh, DC school system was one of 'em.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Where when, uh—well, in the case of DC, the high schools, junior highs, and elementaries were segregated unlike here—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - Topeka where it was only elementary.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        But when they integrated the high schools, which was early on in DC, many students experienced things similar to what you’re describing.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        But in those students experience it was a way of segregating the black students—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - into certain classes.

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        While the students that were getting better grades—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - who might’ve been black, did not—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - get put in the classes with the white students that had been getting better grades.

Carol Nutter:               Yes. Because it was a matter of prejudice.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Because their grades were changed. Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And that’s-that’s [crosstalk 25:25].

Oloye Adeyemon:        And I just wondered if you felt that that had anything to do with why your grades were changed?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, yes, I think something had—I do think that had something to do with it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I do. I really do believe it had something to do with it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Because there were a lot of whites—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - even though the Topeka Junior Highs and High Schools had been—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - uh, integrated—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - I understand there were many whites—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - who didn’t—would’ve-would’ve preferred to not be integrated. Would you say that was true from your experience? There was-there was evidence that some-some of the white teachers—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - and white students, and white parents—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - were not in favor of black students being in junior high and high school?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, well, I’m gonna say it. When we got to high school, it was a little bit different that—I mean, you could see the prejudice, but they hid it, you know. It was like, uh-uh, in the south they don’t hide their prejudices. So, I think in this part of the country you don’t know who’s prejudiced. They-they say they’re on your jobs. You don’t know where they are.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               But they’re like undercover. And I noticed that in Kansas especially there’s a lot undercover things that go on here. You understand what I’m saying. And they say they’re not prejudiced, but I know all the time that they are because of the things that they do, and how they treat people. So—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Other than—go ahead.

Carol Nutter:               Okay. So, you know, anymore questions or whatever?

Oloye Adeyemon:        Yeah. Just about the grades. 'Cause I’m stuck on that [crosstalk 26:41].

Carol Nutter:               Oh, the grades. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Yeah. Were there other things that you experienced in junior high or high school like that, that you felt were—

Carol Nutter:               Yes. I was coming home—

Oloye Adeyemon:        - [crosstalk 26:51] prejudiced?

Carol Nutter:               - from high school one day, and I had dyed my hair blonde. I mean, I had—I was probably one of the first minorities that ever dyed their hair platinum. And, um, I had platinum hair, and this, uh, white boy, him-him and his friend they were in this, uh, car. They ran down the street, “Black nigger with blonde hair.” They called me. And they didn’t know that I was part Indian. You know what I mean. They-they were telling me what they thought I was. Now this has a very—this is very bad in Topeka. They do—they have a bad habit of asking people what nationality they are.

Now there were a few Indians that went to that school at Buchanan. I don’t remember 'em. But there were a few Indians by choice that went to that school. So, it wasn’t just black people in the school. It was—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now you said by choice.

Carol Nutter:               - you could come-you could come to Buchanan. Buchanan was not prejudiced. They didn’t care what nationality you are. You could go to that school if you wanted to.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Right. And so, the point you’re making is—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - now at that time, students that were identified as Indian could go to the white school.

Carol Nutter:               Yes, they could. But-but—

Oloye Adeyemon:        But this particular—

Carol Nutter:               - now they had-they had a problem though. Most of 'em lived on reservations. They really probably didn’t wanna accept them either because that, uh, that restaurant I was telling you about.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, they would—any kind of minority was served in a sack.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see.

Carol Nutter:               It didn’t make any difference if you were black or not then. They were prejudiced toward other people.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, when you said by choice, this would have been children that a might’ve been able to go to the white school, but they chose—

Carol Nutter:               Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - to come to Buchanan.

Carol Nutter:               Yes, they chose to come to Buchanan. I-I can’t remember their names, but I remember there were two or three Indians that went to that school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, other than those two examples, the grades and the students calling you a name, were there any other things that you felt made it more difficult for blacks to get their education?

Carol Nutter:               Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Or that-that would’ve prevented them from getting the-the education that was comparable at the white school?

Carol Nutter:               - well, that-that’s the only thing that I can really remember myself. Uh, I really didn’t have too much trouble. I was a quiet person, and-and I just went on to do my studies. And I treat-treated everybody nice. The only problem was I do know that after getting out of high school, I would go to Stewarts Beauty Academy to get my hair done. And my sister, Victoria, she’s one of the greatest beauticians in Topeka. She does hair. She did my hair this morning. I wanna give her credit for that. She wasn’t able to come.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And, uh, she’s gonna be interviewed on Thursday I think Honey said. Um, she does hair beautifully. She does doctors’ and lawyers’ hair, all races of people because she went to a white beauty-beauty school, which is Stewarts, and I give 'em credit. But if you were black in Stewarts, you would have to wait all minority, Indian, whatever, you would have to wait an hour before they did your hair.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now only white school in here [crosstalk 29:28]?

Carol Nutter:               And—yeah. And, you know, at that particular time, black people weren’t really allowed to get their hair done, but I had the kind of hair that they could do my hair. Because of the mixture that I have.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               So, they—I would wait an hour, but I’d get my hair done. So, finally they opened it up for black people to go to-to go to beauty school. And they started, uh, you know, they didn’t have to go to Madam Walker-Walker’s. I think I’m the one that integrated the beauty schools out here.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. Now—

Carol Nutter:               Because—uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - now you said Madam Walker. She had a place here?

Carol Nutter:               Now that’s a-that’s a black school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        She had a [crosstalk 29:53].

Carol Nutter:               That’s in Kansas City.

Oloye Adeyemon:        It’s in Kansas City.

Carol Nutter:               And so, a lot of people didn’t wanna go to Kansas City. So, they wanted to go to these schools, and they couldn’t get in I don’t think.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And then later on I just kept going till the people decided, you know, that they would let the-the, uh, minorities in.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And your sister was one of those?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, my sister was the first minority to go to Stewarts Beauty Academy. And she can really do hair. Victoria is—she’s a very good beautician. I’m a licensed cosmetologist myself. We’re both licensed cosmetologists. Uh, but my health, however, has declined. So, I don’t have my job, but I used to have a couple beauty salons [crosstalk 30:22].

Oloye Adeyemon:        'Cause those chemicals can be harmful, especially if you have hay fever and things.

Carol Nutter:               Well, uh, yes. Well, I have a disease called Thrombophlebitis now. And then I just recently had an auto accident. So, uh, I haven’t been feeling good from that. But I-I drive them around when I’m able to do that, and take them where they wanna go on their drive for their cosmetics and stuff like that that she needs to get for the shops, and all that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        [Distorted audio 30:39] talked about some of the problems in the schools. You mentioned that you were very pleased with the educations you got from your teachers in elementary school. But one thing that I would like to talk about you mentioned that there was a white teacher that took time with you.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        During the years that this existed, this was kind of the status quo of segregation—

Carol Nutter:               Yes, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - the inequities in the schools. And I think that it’s important to recognize that it wasn’t necessarily all whites.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Do—did you find that there were whites who might’ve spoken out against these things privately, but not have done it publicly because they might be ostracized? Did you-you find that [crosstalk 31:28]?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, it’s-it’s a possibility that it was a private thing with them. Because, uh, even segregation can be—I mean, even, uh, prejudices can be hidden. I mean, right at this very day there are those things that are hidden.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I think, in my opinion, if everybody would just start treating everybody like sisters and brothers, our world wouldn’t be like it is now. I think that if everybody realizes that there’s only one race, and that’s the human race.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And everybody gets together and help. Uh, because we all came from Africa in the first place. There are the four rivers-rivers, the Guyan River, the Euphrates, uh, the Ethiopian, uh, the Nile River, or whatever. All of these rivers, uh, I forget exactly. I-I may not be saying one of 'em right. But, uh, I do know there were four rivers. And you’ve got these four, I think the nationalities came from when Nimrod built the tower to Babylon.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And God scattered the languages because they were being-being disobedient by trying to make this tower to go to heaven.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               So, it’s just like in a plane, when a person is flying in a plane, I’ve always been afraid to fly. My ex-husband was in the military. I do fly. I fly—flew through with my son-in-law, who is a black pilot. Uh, he’s one of the few black-black pilots in the United States. His name is Ron Thornton.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What airline?

Carol Nutter:               Um, Northwest.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And, uh, my daughter, Crystal, is a news commentator on WB33. Uh, she is going to be nominated in January, or she has already been nominated for one of the greatest, uh, anchors across America, and is going to come up in January. I’d like to go see it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Was she a [distorted audio 32:57] school?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, yes. She-she was. She never went to Buchanan. But, uh, she went to—she was the homecoming queen at Topeka High, and, uh, this—I don’t know exactly what year. It’s been a long, long time ago.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now when you were—

Carol Nutter:               But she’s 35.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - when you were at Topeka High, blacks couldn’t even, uh, there was no—that was out of the question, right, to be the homecoming queen?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, well I don’t know whether you could. I don’t think anybody ever tried out. But they did have some black cheerleaders, as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               They might’ve had one or two.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Yeah.  

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh. Because I was in the glee club. So, I know they had one or two black cheerleaders.

Oloye Adeyemon:        But earlier on they hadn’t even had black cheerleaders.

Carol Nutter:               No, no. But I was in the glee club, but then that’s where you yell for the teams and stuff like that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I wanna go back. Um, because in a lot of these interviews, um, there’s a lot of emphasis placed on, uh, some of the things that were done to handicap, or that ended up, or had the-the consequence of handicapping blacks. But I wanted to talk a little bit about the white teacher that you spoke about.

Carol Nutter:               Mrs. Gunther.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Yes, um.

Carol Nutter:               I think she’s still living, and, um, but she’s an older woman.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Would you say that—

Carol Nutter:               Or very, very old.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - she was unusual in terms of the white teachers that were teaching full-time?

Carol Nutter:               I think she was. I think she was so nice. I could never say anything bad about that woman. She was kind of a blonde lady.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I think she was married, and had children, or something at that time.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               But she-she, um, tried to understand me. She knew that I liked English. And she tried to help me. And, um—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Do you think that many of the students did not get that from the white teachers for whatever reason?

Carol Nutter:               - I think a lot of 'em didn’t get it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. But it did exist?

Carol Nutter:               It did exist.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, when we talk about that being absent—

Carol Nutter:               I think they treated Warren kind of bad, Warren Johnson—

Oloye Adeyemon:        - mm-hmm. Why?

Carol Nutter:               - junior high. Uh, he would come out with Fs on his grade card. And I don’t think [distorted audio 34:35] problem. Warren was dumb. I never thought that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Why do you think that he might’ve singled out?

Carol Nutter:               Um, but he said, “They gave me an F, Kay, and I don’t why.” That’s what he told me.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I know that Ron—that he was not dumb. You know what I mean. I just wondered why. Just like they gave me those Ds.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               That, you know—and he-he believed, uh, at that time, he’s not here, but I think he thought that he shouldn’t have gotten it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               You know what I mean.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And you agreed based—

Carol Nutter:               I agreed—

Oloye Adeyemon:        - on [crosstalk 34:58].

Carol Nutter:               - that he shouldn’t have got that. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. 'Cause you knew what kind of student he was.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Did the parents get involved when that happened?

Carol Nutter:               I don’t know whether he—I never got to talk to the parents, or I didn’t see Warren after that for a while, so.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What did your mother say or do when you got these Ds on your transcripts [crosstalk 35:12]?

Carol Nutter:               I didn’t even tell my mother.

Oloye Adeyemon:        You were afraid to.

Carol Nutter:               Because she knew I didn’t—wouldn’t make nothing like that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        You were afraid she was gonna shutdown Topeka High?  

Carol Nutter:               I didn’t tell her. I didn’t. No, I didn’t-I didn’t tell her. But I knew it was a prejudiced thing. I said, “Well, I’ll let it go.” I’m the type of person, God always has a soft word [distorted audio 35:26].

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And that’s in the bible. So, uh, my father always said that too, “Don’t, because anger stirs up strife.” So, my father said, “Don’t-don’t holler at anybody. Just be soft spoken.” Well, I have a tendency to talk loud because I have a bad ear from an accident I had a long time ago.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I don’t need to talk loud, or try to scare somebody with my voice, or anything like that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        It could also be maybe some of that fire that your mother had.

Carol Nutter:               Well, it may be that I’ve taken [distorted audio 35:51]. She had quite a bit of fire. I’ll never compare to her.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               But I had a praying grandmother who was a black lady, the Black-Black Hawk Indian I was telling you about. Now too bad I didn’t bring her book. She wrote a book called, “Miracles and Visions of Today,” by Mother Dora Culpeper Sudduth. Her name was Culpeper, which in Indian means mountain. It—also it’s with one P is Jewish. So, I kind of think she—because of those miracles that she wrote, she had a little black jew in her. Because of the fact, oh, she goes back to Moses. I traced her family history back to Moses. I mean, way back to biblical times.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I don’t know whether you’d say Moses, but that far back.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Let’s put it like that. And I couldn’t find anything bad on my grandmother at all.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               She would touch people, and through Jesus they’d be healed. And she wore white every Sunday with a big [distorted audio 36:37].

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And that-that book, what she did is that there was a man that was supposed to been pronounced dead that she brought back to life through Jesus.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Or through Jesus, this man was brought back to life.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               That wasn’t supposed to live and, uh, the first thing she did is that when she was about 15 years old, she was in Salem, Georgia. And she fell over backwards in this woman’s arms in the book it told this.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And said God took her to heaven for three days, and she saw these doves. And when she come back, she could start healing people.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Well, I asked God to do the same thing for me. I said, “Would you give me that gift that my grandmother used to have?” So, he gave me some other kind of gift. But I still have some gift to help others, you know, with the healing and all, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               So, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, what-what I think I’m getting from what you’re saying now is that—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - you know, this is something that’s very much a part, it’s like a-a-a theme that’s running through your family history.

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And that to understand your mother doing this, and how you feel about it—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - you know, you really have to understand, you know, the place that God plays in your life.

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And in your family’s-your family’s life. Going back to the church that you belong to, uh, was that a church—was that one of the churches were they end up [fading voice 37:52]?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, now I don’t know whether they’ve ever held meetings there, or anything like that. But I-I do know that my church—our church was a mixed church. They would invite anybody in. It made no difference what—'cause we have white people in that church now that’s been changed over to Capital City.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Um, it’s Lane Chapel-Chapel now. But, uh, Pastor Marshall is—Robert Marshall is our pastor that I belong to—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               - with the church I belong to right now.

Oloye Adeyemon:        The reason I ask is because I understood that when petition got started—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - that there were a lot of meetings in the [crosstalk 38:24].

Carol Nutter:               They-they could’ve been held there. Uh, I don’t remember that part of it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. You would’ve been kind of young.

Carol Nutter:               Because I had—I was kind of young then. So, I don’t remember that part. But at that particular time, the NAACP I do remember mother at one time joined the NAACP. 'Cause they used to have the colored Y. It used to be a Y, they called it the colored Y.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Where was that at?

Carol Nutter:               In those days, they didn’t say black. They said colored.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Where was that located?

Carol Nutter:               Um, it’s, uh, right down here. Uh, it’s past the police station.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               It was on the righthand side there with the—uh, that’s on Kansas Avenue I think. It would be on the righthand side.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see. Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And we used to go up there to the Y a lot.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now—

Carol Nutter:               It was a segregated Y is what it was.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               It should’ve been-it should’ve been segregated, but they had to call it the YMCA, which is what I’m saying, the colored Y.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, was your mother involved in—

Carol Nutter:               In NAACP.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - getting that integrated?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, yes. I think she ended up getting that integrated where other people you could mix and stuff like that as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, the Trice girls used to go down there. I don’t know where they are now, but they-they used to belong to that Y down there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, when-when the case went to trial, uh, and the Supreme Court decision was granted, were you—are—were you old enough at that time to have conversations with your mother about it?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, I just heard them talking about it. Me myself, I didn’t know. I just know that it was about the segregation in the schools and stuff.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And my mother was trying to, you know, get that, you know, taken care of where people could go, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And she would do this.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Were you clear that your brother was able to go to the white elementary school because of that case?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, yes. Yes. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What would you say about the changes that came about as a result of that?

Carol Nutter:               Well, I think that, uh-uh, the black people in the community and, uh, minority people were able to get a better education. And, uh, after that, I don’t think it was really any problem, you know, with the—if it was a problem, nobody knew it. I know my daughter had a-a few problems. Uh, she’s, as I say, Crystal was kind of blonde haired, blue eyed. And she had a little problem with the people blackening her eyes. Because, “Oh, you’re not black. You’re white,” you know.

And she-she never would say she was white. She married a black husband, you know. 'Cause I didn’t teach her to be prejudiced. I never did teach my daughter to do that. But she had a lot of problems because of the color of her skin being light.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Was she getting these problems from blacks or whites?

Carol Nutter:               Uh, well I think the majority I can’t really say. This particular time it was a black person. But I just—I don’t know. I never taught 'em that. She came home—of course, Porsha, she was brown skinned, the other daughter. And she had green eyes. And she’d come and beat 'em up. That’s what she did. She beat up somebody. I don’t remember what it was. But Porsha would take no stuff if somebody messed with-with her sister.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And, uh, she’s a gourmet cook. And she didn’t have many problems when she was going through school, Porsha didn’t.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What about the education they received? Were you satisfied?

Carol Nutter:               I think-I think-I think they received a good—a very good, uh, education. I really believe that. I think that they did. And I still, like I say, Buchanan School I wouldn’t trade it for a hill of beans. Because I tell you the truth, it-it was a good school. I learned a lot from it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I really did. But I wanted to tell you this too, since you have me here today, uh, I was in an auto accident four years ago. And I knew there was something that God wanted me to do for the people. And, um, in this accident, this drunken driver hit me. I was in Tulsa coming from the reservation in Oklahoma, going back to see about mom’s records.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               So, that we could see about our Indian, you know, money and so forth, and just Indian inheritance together, whether it’s money or not. But this man hit me, and cut the car in half. The car that—I had just bought this car. And like a tunnel of light came in. I was in this tunnel of light, and they pronounced me dead. Here I was totally unconscious for about I guess it must’ve been 15 minutes. I woke up. This man was saying, “She’s dead, she’s dead. She’s gotta be dead.” I said, “Oh, my God.” And I thought about my grandmother.

I said—and then I said to myself, I said, “Jesus brought Lazarus back.” I said, “Lazarus come forth.” And I came out of that, and you know that trooper gave me three tickets because he still proceeded that I was dead, and was telling the people that he was—that I was dead. And had told my sister, Vicky, on the phone, “She’s dead. I don’t know why she’s standing here.” And, uh, God bought me out of this tunnel of-of light for something.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               So, what happened is a year after that I got, uh, a hold of this Egyptian bus that’s very valuable, it’s worth millions of dollars, at a garage sale. It was from Egypt.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And I’ve tried to sell it and everything. Uh, and then I went to school, Dawson’s Jewelry sitting here to go to Geological Institute of America, and I now am, uh, what I call a student-student jeweler. And I have had everything, uh, tested and everything through this rockhound gemologist. That is John Peck. He’s German, but he was a rockhound gemologist. And I’m trying to sell this to help the people in the community, you know. Every-everybody that’s in need, whatever color they are, whatever nationality.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I have not been able to sell it. It is all platinum, and does have some seiridium, uh, iridium in it. If I’d known that I was gonna be on TV like this, I would’ve probably brought it so you could’ve seen it. But I keep it in the Common Bank.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               It’s very, very valuable. And I hope some day to get it sold right away.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               I have a whole book on it, a whole thing on it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Hmm.

Carol Nutter:               And, uh, I knew there was something that God wanted me to do. Uh, and so, I think that’s one of the things that he gave this to me for. I don’t know who’s gonna buy it, but he’s revealed to me that somebody is gonna buy it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Any advice to students—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - that might be listening to this about, you know—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - because after all—

Carol Nutter:               Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - you know, opportunities exist today that didn’t exist—

Carol Nutter:               Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        - before? Anything that you [crosstalk 43:53]?

Carol Nutter:               My advice is to, uh, to any student, no matter what nationality they are, blacks, or whatever, 'cause the black people now has-has more chances than the people in my mom’s day had.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               You know what I mean. Um, to at least just believe that, you know, you’re just as good as anybody else. Don’t grow up with this inferiority complex. I’m black, I can’t do it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Just say that you’re an American, and you can do it. You’re born in America, be proud of that, you know, and just be proud to be American. Everybody’s got these flags out here.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               It’s not just America. God loves all nations.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter:               Uh, it makes no different what nationality they are, and hopefully we can just have an all-nations flag, you know-you know. That’s what I’m saying, just be with Jesus.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Thank you.

Carol Nutter:               'Cause I think one day all of us are gonna be like Jesus. That’s all I can say I think.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Thank you.

Duration:

44 minutes, 45 seconds

Nutter explains the discrimination in Topeka children of color faced in Topeka, such as her grades being changed from A’s to D’s after the fact when she transitioned from elementary school to high school.

Brown v. Board of Education Oral Histories

Download a copy here (.doc 160KB)

Oral History Interview with Carol Nutter

Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board Oral History Collection, Topeka, Kansas school segregation. The segregation interviews, interviewer—interviewee Mrs. Carol K. Nutter, interviewer Oloye Adeyemon for the National Parks Service. Interview conducted at the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic site in Topeka, Kansas on September 18, 2001.

These interviews are made possible through the Brown versus Board of Education Oral History research project funded by the National Parks Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic site, Oral History project. Mrs. Nutter, what is your full name?

Carol Nutter: Ms. Carol K. Nutter, N-U-T-T-E-R.

Oloye Adeyemon: And your maiden name?

Carol Nutter: It was Carol K. Lawton, L-A-W-T-O-N.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birth date?

Carol Nutter: June 8, 1942.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where you were born?

Carol Nutter: I was born in Topeka, Kansas at Christ Hospital.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what are your parents’ names?

Carol Nutter: Maude E. Sudduth Lawton and Richard William Lawton.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where your parents born?

Carol Nutter: My father was born in Clay Center, Kansas. Uh, it was a pioneer place where he was born. My mother was born in Coweta, Oklahoma, Creek Territory Indian Nation, uh, Native American.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, she was born on the reservation?

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: And so, she, uh—they were part of the Creek Nation?

Carol Nutter: Well, she has two or three nations.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Uh, some of the Sudduth’s are Creek.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was she—

Carol Nutter: But hers was Citizens Band.

Oloye Adeyemon: - I see. And she came—do you know what age she was when she came to Topeka?

Carol Nutter: Uh, about four years old.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. So, she was raised in Topeka?

Carol Nutter: She was raised in Topeka.

Oloye Adeyemon: Your father was not?

Carol Nutter: My father was raised in Clay Center.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. He came as an adult?

Carol Nutter: Uh, he came here as an adult.

Oloye Adeyemon: All right. So, your parents met here in Topeka?

Carol Nutter: I think it was Topeka. My Aunt Ella I believe introduced my—

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: - my-my mother to dad.

Oloye Adeyemon: What did your father do for a living?

Carol Nutter: My father was a contractor/turned carpenter.

Oloye Adeyemon: And your mother?

Carol Nutter: My mother was a housewife but, uh, mainly she helped in the neighborhood different people. She would babysit with people’s children. And she’d also go out west of town and work for doctors and judges, uh, to dust and clean the houses.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. What church did your family belong to?

Carol Nutter: Uh, I belonged to, uh, 12th Street Church of God.

Oloye Adeyemon: Is that what—is that the church that your parents belonged to?

Carol Nutter: Uh, yes. Uh, actually my grandparents founded that church, which is now Lane Street Chapel. Uh, Dora Culpepper, uh, Sudduth, which was a Black-Black Hawk Indian, um, uh, founded that church with my, uh, grandfather who was, uh, German, French, and Indian.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Uh, and I didn’t know later years that I had German but, uh, we’re just Heinz 57. And I think the United States now is Heinz 57.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm, that’s so true.

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, you, um, you-you were a member of that church.

Carol Nutter: Yes, I was.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And what neighborhood—uh, now you were a member of this church, but so were your parents. They were a member of that same church?

Carol Nutter: Uh-uh, yes, yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter: My—well, dad was Methodist. He-he belonged to the Methodist Church.

Oloye Adeyemon: What church?

Carol Nutter: He—and that would be the one in Clay Center. He did not attend church much. He believed it in his heart, but he believed he read the bible, and he’s—a lotta times I think he was attending church, and we didn’t know it. [Crosstalk 03:42].

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, your mother was the active participant?

Carol Nutter: My mother was the active person.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. What neighborhood did your family live in?

Carol Nutter: Uh, we lived in West Topeka. I think they call it Tennessee Town, or something.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: Yeah, Tennessee Town.

Oloye Adeyemon: You’re on Bush Street?

Carol Nutter: Uh-uh, yes, 14, uh-uh, in Munson there on-on 14-14th and Munson. She moved later to 14, what was it, 1417—1422 was the original.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter: Uh, it’s—the house is not there anymore. They demolished it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, these-these two locations were close together?

Carol Nutter: Yes, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, what school did students that lived in that neighborhood go to?

Carol Nutter: Uh, the students lived, um—the students that, uh—well, they lived all around. It’s depending on what students you’re talking about. Some of 'em lived on [crosstalk 04:20].

Oloye Adeyemon: No, the students that lived, um, in Tennessee Town.

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: What elementary school did they attend?

Carol Nutter: Oh, you’re asking me about the school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yes.

Carol Nutter: Oh, Buchanan School.

Oloye Adeyemon: Buchanan School.

Carol Nutter: Buchanan School we attended. Well, and, uh, the address was wrong. I said 1470. It’s 1414 Munson is what it is now where mother lived when she passed away. I’m sorry.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, during the time you were in school, that was the area your family lived in.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: How far did you have to go to get to elementary school?

Carol Nutter: Well, it wasn’t very far from our home. Because we lived on Munson, and it was on Buchanan, 1195 Buchanan as I remember. Uh-huh. And, uh, it was about two, I’d say, one, two—two and a half almost three blocks.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Did other students that went to-that went to Buchanan with you have to travel a longer distance?

Carol Nutter: Yeah, some of 'em did. But most of 'em lived in the area.

Oloye Adeyemon: Most of 'em.

Carol Nutter: That I knew.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. In your case, you didn’t have to pass a white school to get to school did you?

Carol Nutter: Uh, no. But, uh, no, not really.

Oloye Adeyemon: But there were some students that did?

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. When you were going to school, did some of the students that you went to school with catch buses?

Carol Nutter: Yeah. They did have bussing then. There were several buses that would come.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Uh, they had buses [fading voice 05:23].

Oloye Adeyemon: But there were some students that either had to walk a long distance—

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: - or catch the bus.

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Only because they could not go to the white school that was closest to their house.

Carol Nutter: Yes. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Before we talk about the lawsuit that your mother was a petitioner who had signed your name to—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, that became the local Brown versus Board of Education, Topeka case that was heard in Federal District Court, Topeka. Then went on to became a part-part of the class action suit, um, that was heard by the Supreme Court.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, I wanna talk a little bit about your early memories of living in Topeka as a segregated city.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: What were your earliest memories of segregation?

Carol Nutter: Well, um, me myself, I really didn’t have too many problems. I-I know now they have a, uh—we used to go out and eat sometimes, and they would serve you in sacks, uh, and they would—

Oloye Adeyemon: You said they—

Carol Nutter: - tell you—they would say, “You couldn’t sit here, but you could take it to.”

Oloye Adeyemon: - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Now that used to be the old Bobo’s. I’m not trying to give them a bad name. Because I still know a-a lot of nice people that are Bobo. Nice Bobo people. They never told me that.

Oloye Adeyemon: This was a restaurant you’re saying?

Carol Nutter: Uh, this is a restaurant.

Oloye Adeyemon: Owned by?

Carol Nutter: It’s not too far from the Buchanan School.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

Carol Nutter: Uh, it was owned by the Bobo people.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Um, however, they always treated me pretty nice. However, I knew that when I came in, you know, they were gonna serve us in sacks. They also did Mexicans like that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: It wasn’t just people that were Indian or black.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: They also did Mexican, anybody that was a minority.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh. And, um—

Oloye Adeyemon: What about the movie theater?

Carol Nutter: - uh, the movie theaters I remember, uh, the Grand Theater, all of the, um, the black people, uh, would sit upstairs.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And then the-then the whites would sit down.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Well, at that particular time there was a man named Dr. Johnson, who was a black doctor here in town.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I heard him say one day when they told him to go upstairs, he says, and I was about, let me see, eight or nine then.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were you in the movie house at that time?

Carol Nutter: Uh-uh, yes. And he says, uh, “I’m Dr. Johnson, and I’m gonna sit downstairs.” I said-I said, “You know what Dr. Johnson, I’m gonna sit here with ya.”

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: So, I went and sat right next to Dr. Johnson. And I was a person that would not let anybody hold me back.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Because of color of your skin, or anything like that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I would always sit where I wanted. And they wouldn’t say anything to me.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did they say anything to you and Dr. Johnson as you [crosstalk 0741]?

Carol Nutter: No, they didn’t.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did you watch the movie [crosstalk 07:43]?

Carol Nutter: Because I went and sat right down there with him, and watched it till it was over. And I forgot what the movie was, but I remember I was sitting there watching.

Oloye Adeyemon: All eyes were on you I’m sure.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, that-that, uh—

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: - so, were—there were segregated conditions.

Carol Nutter: Yes. If you were black, you sat up in the [unintelligible 08:04] up there, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now what was—

Carol Nutter: It’s on the second floor, wasn’t it, Tommy?

Oloye Adeyemon: - was there anything that your parents had instilled in you that caused you to sit with Dr. Johnson? Was it anything that your parents?

Carol Nutter: Well, the way my parents raised me, and it’s the same that I’ve done with my children, I never raised my children to be inferior. That’s why I have a daughter that’s a news commentator today. That’s why-why my daughter, Porsha, is the same way, and all of my children that I raised. I have another daughter, Monica. Uh, they-they just don’t have that, uh—she lives out in Kansas City here. Uh, they don’t have that feeling of, uh, being, uh, left out. You should never raise your children to be inferior, whatever-whatever nationality they are, black.

Oloye Adeyemon: What contributed to your attitude, to your feeling? Was it something your parents?

Carol Nutter: Because my father and mother never talked about color much unless the condition came up, and dad said, “You could be whatever you wanna be, and if somebody asks you what nationality you are, you don’t have to be ashamed of that. But always put down American citizen. Because that’s what you are.” See, there’s only one race, and that’s the human race. That’s the way I’ve always believed about everybody.

Oloye Adeyemon: Is that the way your parents taught you?

Carol Nutter: That’s the way I was taught. I was taught that way not to think you’re better than somebody because you’re black, or whether a person’s white.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And because I have so many colors in my family, I cannot be prejudiced, you know, [crosstalk 09:24].

Oloye Adeyemon: So, you know, it was not only that you shouldn’t—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, feel you-you—so, I’m hearing you say that you-you were taught to not feel ashamed.

Carol Nutter: Not ashamed of anything.

Oloye Adeyemon: But also—

Carol Nutter: Whatever race you are.

Oloye Adeyemon: - but also—

Carol Nutter: You shouldn’t be ashamed of that.

Oloye Adeyemon: - not to be prejudiced against others.

Carol Nutter: Not to be prejudiced against others. No, dad never taught us to be prejudiced at all.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, when this court case came about, your family’s involvement in it would you say that it had as much to do with changing the conditions in the schools as also changing people’s attitudes?

Carol Nutter: Yes. My mother had a lot to do with it. She felt that people that no matter what, uh, nationality they are, she’d be able to go to a black school. And I—as I remember, my brother and my sister, Gloria, were the first two, uh, minority people to attend the, um, uh, what’s that, the name of that school over there, uh, next to our house. It’s—I’m trying to recall it now. The children went there to that school, the grade school, the white grade school over there. Was it Lowman? Was it Lowman Hill?

Female Voice: Lowman Hill.

Carol Nutter: Yeah, yeah. The Lowman Hill School, as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, these would’ve been younger brothers and sisters of you?

Carol Nutter: Uh, well, Gloria is older. But I think Gloria was the first person to go to, uh, Boswell Junior High. That’s what I’m trying to say. And Marvin was the one for Lowman Hill, as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. He was a younger one?

Carol Nutter: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. How many brothers and sisters do you have?

Carol Nutter: Uh, well there was—altogether there’s nine of us. It was five girls, and four boys.

Oloye Adeyemon: What are their names?

Carol Nutter: Uh, Richard was my oldest brother. He died in 1973. And then Constance just died almost three years ago in February. She’s been dead about two and a half years now. That’s my oldest sister.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And, uh, she helped to raise us, a very good sister, and I do miss her.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: I love all my family, but I was-I was very close with my sister, Constance.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And the other brothers and sisters you mentioned?

Carol Nutter: Uh, yes. There’s Calvin, uh, Melvin, Marvin. And then, um, Calvin, Melvin, Marvin, and Richard. Richard’s the one that’s-that’s dead.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And then there’s, uh-uh, Tellie, they call her Tellie, Phyllis, uh, Constance as I said before, she’s deceased. Gloria, and then Vic-Victoria.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you said Melvin?

Carol Nutter: Melvin. Now he lives out in, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: There were two, Melvin.

Carol Nutter: - Melvin and Marvin, and then Calvin.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: Calvin is the one that’s the artist in the family. He’s a great artist. Everybody knows him.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: He can draw you in about three minutes.

Oloye Adeyemon: So-so, all but two of them were younger than you?

Carol Nutter: Yes. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And you entered elementary school in what year?

Carol Nutter: Uh, well I went—it was the Brown, uh, versus, uh, '54 decision. So, it was '54 and '55 that I was in there with, uh, Linda Brown, as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon: What year did you enter elementary school?

Carol Nutter: Uh, I entered when I was four going on five years old.

Oloye Adeyemon: What year would that have been?

Carol Nutter: Uh, that was—see, I was born in '42, so that’d be '43, '44, '45, '46, or 7.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, about '46?

Carol Nutter: '47, about '46 or [crosstalk 12:04].

Oloye Adeyemon: '47. Okay. Uh-huh. So, you had two siblings that were already in school at that point.

Carol Nutter: Yes. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: When did the last of the youngest of your siblings, can you approximate when they entered school, the youngest of your brothers and sisters?

Carol Nutter: Uh, yeah. Well, they entered school probably the same time I did, 5. And then, uh, Marvin was about 5 when he entered.

Oloye Adeyemon: What year would your youngest brother or sister have entered?

Carol Nutter: Uh, okay.

Oloye Adeyemon: Approximately.

Carol Nutter: Let’s see. Marvin is 51. So, that would be—I don’t keep up with them too much.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: He doesn’t-he doesn’t—they don’t [crosstalk 12:32].

Oloye Adeyemon: So, he was born in 1950s. So, he probably would enter school about 1955.

Carol Nutter: Well, it must be a little later than that wouldn’t it?

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, okay. 50, well around there, '56. 'Cause he was born—you say he’s 51?

Carol Nutter: Yeah. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, he would’ve been born in 1950.

Carol Nutter: Yeah. See I’m-I’m 59. I was born in '42.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: So, he would’ve been in—he’d been in later than that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, you had some children that graduated before the case?

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you had some that were in school during the case.

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you’re saying that some of your younger siblings actually experienced the outcome.

Carol Nutter: Yes, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Where they actually were the integrations.

Carol Nutter: Yes, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, for you, you were right there in the middle—

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: - during the time that it happened.

Carol Nutter: Yes. I was in the fifth or sixth grade with, uh, Linda Brown. She was in my class.

Oloye Adeyemon: She was in your class—

Carol Nutter: Yes, she was. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - at that time at Buchanan?

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm, at Buchanan School. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now what was the education like, putting-putting aside segregation conditions and so on, what was it like, you know, [crosstalk 13:37]?

Carol Nutter: I-I do believe that I got good education at Buchanan. I’ll tell you one thing that I didn’t particularly care for because it many-many times I—my math, I always liked add-adding, subtracting, multiplication, and division. But when it came to fractures—fractions, I believe that the black people did not teach-teach it well. And I was very confused until I went to, uh, like about the 12th or maybe the first year of college when I had the technical college—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: - in the business education at Clarks Business School, I learned the fractions then.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Because fractions somehow confused me. I don’t know what it was about fractions.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did—

Carol Nutter: But the reading I-I found out that I had the best principal, Ms. Montgomery. She was very strict, but she was very—I-I really liked Ms. Montgomery.

Oloye Adeyemon: - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Uh, our black teacher, you know. Um, I thought she—it was just great, but I think that they themselves didn’t know very much about fractions.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, was this—

Carol Nutter: And so, I was very confused about fractions—

Oloye Adeyemon: - was this a problem—

Carol Nutter: - by the time I was 12th—in the 12th grade, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon: - was this a problem that you noticed other black students having? It wasn’t just you?

Carol Nutter: Uh, well, I don’t know—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 14:36].

Carol Nutter: - about that. There was a lot of black people that didn’t like math. Most of 'em would like to read. You know what I mean? I-I think so.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, you-you think of all the areas—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - the area that you felt you did not—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - the education that you got was not up to the standard of everything else [crosstalk 14:54]?

Carol Nutter: I think it was up to the standard. Yes, I do believe that the black school was up to the standard.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: But I think it was something in fractions that they didn’t—couldn’t explain.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: And maybe in those days they probably kept thinking only know so much.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter: Because you know how you weren’t allowed to read many years before that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Right.

Carol Nutter: If they caught you looking at a book, you know, in those days.

Oloye Adeyemon: But in general you-you thought pretty highly of the teachers that you had?

Carol Nutter: Oh, I thought the teachers were superb.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: I thought I learned a lot about reading there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: The reading and all I thought it was so beautiful, and I love to read.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Now, right now, even though I didn’t like math [unintelligible 15:24] when I went and took the business math, I feel a lot better about math than I did. It’s because it was taught wrong.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: But that’s the only thing I found that was wrong about it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: And I think it was because something that they did themselves and didn’t realize it. 'Cause they weren’t allowed to do these things.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

Carol Nutter: You understand? That-that was way back.

Oloye Adeyemon: No, I understand.

Carol Nutter: And people in their day would—you could hardly even read in certain eras.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right.

Carol Nutter: Before the 1900s, or even in the 1900s it was bad, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon: Sure, sure. Sure. So—

Carol Nutter: So, it’s no—I think it was a good school.

Oloye Adeyemon: - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I’m proud to have gone to that school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm, good.

Carol Nutter: I’m proud to have gone there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, what do you think about the attitude of the teachers about teaching, forgetting the subjects for a minute?

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: What do you think about their attitude about teaching? Uh, what do you think about, uh, their concern or lack of concern for the students?

Carol Nutter: I think in that day if we had more schools like Buchanan as far as having morals, these people really taught morals. That’s what I liked about 'em. Uh, me myself, they used to have electric paddles, and they really wanted me to be something. I’m gonna tell you, what-what was the teacher’s name, Mr. Ross. I was in the—about the fourth grade at that time. And he came along with a book and hit me on top of my head.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: And then made Mamie Williams, she would come up and say, “Get to work, Carol K. This is the way you make your As. This is the way you make your Os. Get to work.” And she’d be standing me up there, you know, and everything. And so, they got this electric paddle. I was about in the sixth grade then with Linda, fifth or sixth grade. And they tried the-the electric paddle out on me. I was the first person they tried out. And my sister said, “You must not have told mother about it. 'Cause she sure would’ve came up to that school.” I said, “Well, they did that to let me know that if I did anything wrong, this is what I was gonna get this electric paddle.”

And I-I think taking the old hickory stick out of the school system, I think that’s why the children are so—God said spare the rod, and spoil the child. But now some people don’t know how to whip children. I chastised my children. I didn’t beat them, but I chastised, and I believe it was a little switch, you know, every once in a while I’d take it around for the girls. The boy I didn’t have to do anything with him. He was spoiled. Uh, he-he—of course, he died when he was very young, my son.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm, sorry.

Carol Nutter: And, uh, mom had some leaky furnaces, and they could not save my son. Uh, three weeks later I got sick. They rushed me to St. Francis. I was under oxygen for eight hours.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was his-what was [crosstalk 17:40]?

Carol Nutter: His name was David Torbet Nutter. And he would’ve been 30 if he’d lived.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was the illness that you said?

Carol Nutter: The—my-my, uh, son, uh, was asphyxiated by gas.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh.

Carol Nutter: Because the [unintelligible 17:50] had put something in, uh, crooked or something. And the guy that put 'em in it was a combustion chamber, and when they did the autopsy they found out that’s what it was [crosstalk 17:57].

Oloye Adeyemon: Put it in crooked in what?

Carol Nutter: Uh, in the—it was, uh, a furnace. It was—

Oloye Adeyemon: Your furnace in your home?

Carol Nutter: - it was in my mom’s home, mom and dad’s home.

Oloye Adeyemon: That’s why you also got sick.

Carol Nutter: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: For as children you—y’all got sick from this [crosstalk 18:07].

Carol Nutter: Uh, well the-well the kids slept-slept in a separate room. The other children weren’t hurt.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

Carol Nutter: I didn’t get hurt until a later time, which they had [crosstalk 18:14].

Oloye Adeyemon: But your mother got sick?

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: And your-your brother?

Carol Nutter: Um—

Oloye Adeyemon: Wait, your-your son.

Carol Nutter: - and my son. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Your son.

Carol Nutter: It’s what my son died from it. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: He would’ve, uh, see—

Oloye Adeyemon: Your mother was—

Carol Nutter: - we found-we found him dead. I thought he was just-he was just woke up, and he was just smiling.

Oloye Adeyemon: - your mother was living with—

Carol Nutter: - I thought he was smiling. Because he had, you know, his teeth were showing and everything.

Oloye Adeyemon: - so your mother was living with you.

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh. Yeah, my mother. I was—

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

Carol Nutter: - living with my mother. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. I understand.

Carol Nutter: And so, we found him dead that morning. But it was just sad, and sometimes I think about him, you know—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, sure.

Carol Nutter: - very much. But this-this time he would be about 30 years old if he lived.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So, during the time of the, uh, court case—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - one of the things that was different in the elementary schools that you attended them, I take it would be true of other black elementary schools here in Kansas—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, Topeka.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: There was discipline.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: And the teachers really I guess didn’t—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - take any nonsense from the students.

Carol Nutter: No, they didn’t. Uh-huh, they—uh, Warren Johnson was also in my class, uh, Barry Johnson’s brother.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I always thought that, uh, Ms., uh, what I’m trying to say, what did I say her name was, Ms. McGovern. I’m trying to get back to Ms. McGovern now.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: I always thought she was a little hard on Warren with the spanking she gave him.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: But in those days, those kind of spankings they didn’t make any difference.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: You’d go home, and you’d get another spanking if you did something.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. You sometimes wouldn’t wanna tell your parents you got spanked.

Carol Nutter: Yeah. They would take—no.

Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause then they’d check into it, and it’d be time for you to bend over again.

Carol Nutter: Yes. Well, mother didn’t really like 'em to whip us much.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: She’d be up there, you know. She was pretty tough.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: She didn’t want 'em touch her kids, you know. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. But you—I think I’m hearing-I’m hearing you say—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - that the children didn’t misbehave.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: And the teachers took an active interest in them learning. Is that true?

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh. Yeah. I went—uh-huh. I remember that one day when my sister, there was a lady named Ms. Oglesby that was a teacher there. And, uh, Gloria did something. And she grabbed her around the throat. And, of course, mother turned the school out because Gloria couldn’t talk for three days. And she came up and turned the school out, and they closed the school. So, that to me is why I know that mother was—that was the only incident that had happened. And, uh-uh, my mother was very tough.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Sounds like it.

Carol Nutter: She didn’t get the credit that she should’ve had. You understand what I’m saying?

Oloye Adeyemon: Your mother’s name is?

Carol Nutter: Is Maude E. Lawton.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh. But she was the person—

Oloye Adeyemon: When you’re looking through her record—

Carol Nutter: - that would turn something out. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - so, is she—

Carol Nutter: She was [distorted audio 20:33].

Oloye Adeyemon: - she was—she-she made a name for herself then.

Carol Nutter: Yes. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Not only in—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - terms of this particular case—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - but she has been fighting anything—

Female Voice: For hurting her child.

Carol Nutter: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: - that she felt was an injustice—

Carol Nutter: That’s right.

Oloye Adeyemon: - in the schools before that.

Carol Nutter: She was like that. Yeah. She was like that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: My mother was just that way.

Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.

Carol Nutter: Hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: So—

Carol Nutter: That was the only incident that was wrong. And then they didn’t let her teach anymore after that. I think she went to California.

Oloye Adeyemon: - they—

Carol Nutter: 'Cause they were-they were strict about the rules at that school.

Oloye Adeyemon: - uh-huh.

Carol Nutter: They taught morals.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter: And I don’t have anything bad to say about Buchanan School.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Carol Nutter: A lot of things that I know now I know that I learned it from Buchanan. I was taught that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Good. That’s good.

Carol Nutter: Uh, yes. I think it was a great school, and I’m proud to have gone there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. So, the problem that your mother had initially—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - was the inequity—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - that the schools were not—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - equal, the services were not equal.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: And children were being forced to go to schools in many cases that were not—

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: - the schools closes to their homes.

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: When you got to junior high school—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - and high school, the conditions were much different weren’t they?

Carol Nutter: Yes. Yes, they were.

Oloye Adeyemon: Because now you were in an environment where you were a minority.

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: And the teaching staff was entirely white.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was that like?

Carol Nutter: Well, I’m gonna tell you what happened to me, and I thought it was very strange. I never told anybody about it. Because my grades were pretty good in grade school. I wasn’t the greatest, but I was above an average student, B, A, or A, B, C. Uh, the odd part about it I always made As in English. When I got to, uh, junior high school, Mrs. Gunther was my teacher. So, I remember she-she really liked me. She was a white teacher.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: But when I got to Topeka High, and they transferred my grades—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: - they had all Ds on 'em. And I don’t understand why they did.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I think it was out of prejudice. Because I always made As, you know, in, uh, in the English and stuff. Even though I didn’t like math, but I never failed anything. You understand what I’m saying? Then I went on into, um—then I took, uh, tailoring, and different things in the 11th grade. And then I went on and I married my husband—my ex-husband, Floyd King is deceased now. Because I had a second husband, uh, Isaac Nutter. And we’re divorced. I’ve been divorced now since '81.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Um, he was a serviceman 25 years. Uh, so basically, uh, I think that they were so prejudiced they were even giving you the wrong grades at that time. If you made an A, they’d lower it a little—a notch. But there’s other people that [crosstalk 23:00].

Oloye Adeyemon: When you went to high school?

Carol Nutter: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: My—all my grades that were transferred from junior high, which I did very good, was just transferred to Topeka High, and how could one person that’s always made As, uh-uh, you understand what I’m saying, and Bs in English, come up with all Ds when they transferred to-to the 10th grade.

Oloye Adeyemon: And as a result of—

Carol Nutter: Yes. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - as a result of your junior high transcripts—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - were you put in a different class than you would’ve been put in had you come in with As, Bs, and Cs?

Carol Nutter: Uh, yes, probably. I mean, uh, no, I-I never—I was always in the same class with anybody. Never was in a lower grade of a class.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, they didn’t have—

Carol Nutter: I went to the regular classes with other people.

Oloye Adeyemon: - so, they didn’t have—

Carol Nutter: You understand what I’m saying.

Oloye Adeyemon: - special classes for those that were advanced in their studies—

Carol Nutter: Hm-mmm. Hm-mmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - or special classes for those that were slow in respects in Topeka High?

Carol Nutter: Yeah. They—yeah, they did have that. They had that I think.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Did they have an advanced class?

Carol Nutter: Yes, they did.

Oloye Adeyemon: In Topeka High?

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were you a member of that advanced class?

Carol Nutter: Now, I did—I was in the glee club. 'Cause the-the grade started changing. I got the Cs and Bs then.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: But, you know, to raise 'em. And I was in the glee club, uh, when I was in 11th grade I believe. And then my picture were taken in the 10th grade. I still have that picture I think. Um, then, uh, I had, uh, what do you call, hay fever. Uh, latter years I had to get out earlier. So, I had to take a GED, but then I went on to college. And my grades came up to Bs and Cs.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: I became a licensed cosmetologist in my late years, and those grades were very high.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: I, uh, graduated with a, uh, a 100 percent in anatomy, and 90 percent, uh, in the written, and the-and the overall score was like 86 with all the technical things that I had to do.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Going back to Topeka High—

Carol Nutter: [Crosstalk 24:35].

Oloye Adeyemon: - the reason I asked that—

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, there were school systems—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, DC school system was one of 'em.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Where when, uh—well, in the case of DC, the high schools, junior highs, and elementaries were segregated unlike here—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - Topeka where it was only elementary.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: But when they integrated the high schools, which was early on in DC, many students experienced things similar to what you’re describing.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: But in those students experience it was a way of segregating the black students—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - into certain classes.

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: While the students that were getting better grades—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - who might’ve been black, did not—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - get put in the classes with the white students that had been getting better grades.

Carol Nutter: Yes. Because it was a matter of prejudice.

Oloye Adeyemon: Because their grades were changed. Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And that’s-that’s [crosstalk 25:25].

Oloye Adeyemon: And I just wondered if you felt that that had anything to do with why your grades were changed?

Carol Nutter: Uh, yes, I think something had—I do think that had something to do with it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: I do. I really do believe it had something to do with it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Because there were a lot of whites—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - even though the Topeka Junior Highs and High Schools had been—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, integrated—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - I understand there were many whites—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - who didn’t—would’ve-would’ve preferred to not be integrated. Would you say that was true from your experience? There was-there was evidence that some-some of the white teachers—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - and white students, and white parents—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - were not in favor of black students being in junior high and high school?

Carol Nutter: Uh, well, I’m gonna say it. When we got to high school, it was a little bit different that—I mean, you could see the prejudice, but they hid it, you know. It was like, uh-uh, in the south they don’t hide their prejudices. So, I think in this part of the country you don’t know who’s prejudiced. They-they say they’re on your jobs. You don’t know where they are.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: But they’re like undercover. And I noticed that in Kansas especially there’s a lot undercover things that go on here. You understand what I’m saying. And they say they’re not prejudiced, but I know all the time that they are because of the things that they do, and how they treat people. So—

Oloye Adeyemon: Other than—go ahead.

Carol Nutter: Okay. So, you know, anymore questions or whatever?

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Just about the grades. 'Cause I’m stuck on that [crosstalk 26:41].

Carol Nutter: Oh, the grades. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Were there other things that you experienced in junior high or high school like that, that you felt were—

Carol Nutter: Yes. I was coming home—

Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 26:51] prejudiced?

Carol Nutter: - from high school one day, and I had dyed my hair blonde. I mean, I had—I was probably one of the first minorities that ever dyed their hair platinum. And, um, I had platinum hair, and this, uh, white boy, him-him and his friend they were in this, uh, car. They ran down the street, “Black nigger with blonde hair.” They called me. And they didn’t know that I was part Indian. You know what I mean. They-they were telling me what they thought I was. Now this has a very—this is very bad in Topeka. They do—they have a bad habit of asking people what nationality they are.

Now there were a few Indians that went to that school at Buchanan. I don’t remember 'em. But there were a few Indians by choice that went to that school. So, it wasn’t just black people in the school. It was—

Oloye Adeyemon: Now you said by choice.

Carol Nutter: - you could come-you could come to Buchanan. Buchanan was not prejudiced. They didn’t care what nationality you are. You could go to that school if you wanted to.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right. And so, the point you’re making is—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - now at that time, students that were identified as Indian could go to the white school.

Carol Nutter: Yes, they could. But-but—

Oloye Adeyemon: But this particular—

Carol Nutter: - now they had-they had a problem though. Most of 'em lived on reservations. They really probably didn’t wanna accept them either because that, uh, that restaurant I was telling you about.

Oloye Adeyemon: - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Uh, they would—any kind of minority was served in a sack.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

Carol Nutter: It didn’t make any difference if you were black or not then. They were prejudiced toward other people.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, when you said by choice, this would have been children that a might’ve been able to go to the white school, but they chose—

Carol Nutter: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: - to come to Buchanan.

Carol Nutter: Yes, they chose to come to Buchanan. I-I can’t remember their names, but I remember there were two or three Indians that went to that school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, other than those two examples, the grades and the students calling you a name, were there any other things that you felt made it more difficult for blacks to get their education?

Carol Nutter: Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Or that-that would’ve prevented them from getting the-the education that was comparable at the white school?

Carol Nutter: - well, that-that’s the only thing that I can really remember myself. Uh, I really didn’t have too much trouble. I was a quiet person, and-and I just went on to do my studies. And I treat-treated everybody nice. The only problem was I do know that after getting out of high school, I would go to Stewarts Beauty Academy to get my hair done. And my sister, Victoria, she’s one of the greatest beauticians in Topeka. She does hair. She did my hair this morning. I wanna give her credit for that. She wasn’t able to come.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And, uh, she’s gonna be interviewed on Thursday I think Honey said. Um, she does hair beautifully. She does doctors’ and lawyers’ hair, all races of people because she went to a white beauty-beauty school, which is Stewarts, and I give 'em credit. But if you were black in Stewarts, you would have to wait all minority, Indian, whatever, you would have to wait an hour before they did your hair.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now only white school in here [crosstalk 29:28]?

Carol Nutter: And—yeah. And, you know, at that particular time, black people weren’t really allowed to get their hair done, but I had the kind of hair that they could do my hair. Because of the mixture that I have.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: So, they—I would wait an hour, but I’d get my hair done. So, finally they opened it up for black people to go to-to go to beauty school. And they started, uh, you know, they didn’t have to go to Madam Walker-Walker’s. I think I’m the one that integrated the beauty schools out here.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Now—

Carol Nutter: Because—uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - now you said Madam Walker. She had a place here?

Carol Nutter: Now that’s a-that’s a black school.

Oloye Adeyemon: She had a [crosstalk 29:53].

Carol Nutter: That’s in Kansas City.

Oloye Adeyemon: It’s in Kansas City.

Carol Nutter: And so, a lot of people didn’t wanna go to Kansas City. So, they wanted to go to these schools, and they couldn’t get in I don’t think.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And then later on I just kept going till the people decided, you know, that they would let the-the, uh, minorities in.

Oloye Adeyemon: And your sister was one of those?

Carol Nutter: Uh, my sister was the first minority to go to Stewarts Beauty Academy. And she can really do hair. Victoria is—she’s a very good beautician. I’m a licensed cosmetologist myself. We’re both licensed cosmetologists. Uh, but my health, however, has declined. So, I don’t have my job, but I used to have a couple beauty salons [crosstalk 30:22].

Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause those chemicals can be harmful, especially if you have hay fever and things.

Carol Nutter: Well, uh, yes. Well, I have a disease called Thrombophlebitis now. And then I just recently had an auto accident. So, uh, I haven’t been feeling good from that. But I-I drive them around when I’m able to do that, and take them where they wanna go on their drive for their cosmetics and stuff like that that she needs to get for the shops, and all that.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Distorted audio 30:39] talked about some of the problems in the schools. You mentioned that you were very pleased with the educations you got from your teachers in elementary school. But one thing that I would like to talk about you mentioned that there was a white teacher that took time with you.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: During the years that this existed, this was kind of the status quo of segregation—

Carol Nutter: Yes, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - the inequities in the schools. And I think that it’s important to recognize that it wasn’t necessarily all whites.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do—did you find that there were whites who might’ve spoken out against these things privately, but not have done it publicly because they might be ostracized? Did you-you find that [crosstalk 31:28]?

Carol Nutter: Uh, it’s-it’s a possibility that it was a private thing with them. Because, uh, even segregation can be—I mean, even, uh, prejudices can be hidden. I mean, right at this very day there are those things that are hidden.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I think, in my opinion, if everybody would just start treating everybody like sisters and brothers, our world wouldn’t be like it is now. I think that if everybody realizes that there’s only one race, and that’s the human race.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And everybody gets together and help. Uh, because we all came from Africa in the first place. There are the four rivers-rivers, the Guyan River, the Euphrates, uh, the Ethiopian, uh, the Nile River, or whatever. All of these rivers, uh, I forget exactly. I-I may not be saying one of 'em right. But, uh, I do know there were four rivers. And you’ve got these four, I think the nationalities came from when Nimrod built the tower to Babylon.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And God scattered the languages because they were being-being disobedient by trying to make this tower to go to heaven.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: So, it’s just like in a plane, when a person is flying in a plane, I’ve always been afraid to fly. My ex-husband was in the military. I do fly. I fly—flew through with my son-in-law, who is a black pilot. Uh, he’s one of the few black-black pilots in the United States. His name is Ron Thornton.

Oloye Adeyemon: What airline?

Carol Nutter: Um, Northwest.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And, uh, my daughter, Crystal, is a news commentator on WB33. Uh, she is going to be nominated in January, or she has already been nominated for one of the greatest, uh, anchors across America, and is going to come up in January. I’d like to go see it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was she a [distorted audio 32:57] school?

Carol Nutter: Uh, yes. She-she was. She never went to Buchanan. But, uh, she went to—she was the homecoming queen at Topeka High, and, uh, this—I don’t know exactly what year. It’s been a long, long time ago.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now when you were—

Carol Nutter: But she’s 35.

Oloye Adeyemon: - when you were at Topeka High, blacks couldn’t even, uh, there was no—that was out of the question, right, to be the homecoming queen?

Carol Nutter: Uh, well I don’t know whether you could. I don’t think anybody ever tried out. But they did have some black cheerleaders, as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: They might’ve had one or two.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh. Because I was in the glee club. So, I know they had one or two black cheerleaders.

Oloye Adeyemon: But earlier on they hadn’t even had black cheerleaders.

Carol Nutter: No, no. But I was in the glee club, but then that’s where you yell for the teams and stuff like that.

Oloye Adeyemon: I wanna go back. Um, because in a lot of these interviews, um, there’s a lot of emphasis placed on, uh, some of the things that were done to handicap, or that ended up, or had the-the consequence of handicapping blacks. But I wanted to talk a little bit about the white teacher that you spoke about.

Carol Nutter: Mrs. Gunther.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yes, um.

Carol Nutter: I think she’s still living, and, um, but she’s an older woman.

Oloye Adeyemon: Would you say that—

Carol Nutter: Or very, very old.

Oloye Adeyemon: - she was unusual in terms of the white teachers that were teaching full-time?

Carol Nutter: I think she was. I think she was so nice. I could never say anything bad about that woman. She was kind of a blonde lady.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I think she was married, and had children, or something at that time.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: But she-she, um, tried to understand me. She knew that I liked English. And she tried to help me. And, um—

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you think that many of the students did not get that from the white teachers for whatever reason?

Carol Nutter: - I think a lot of 'em didn’t get it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. But it did exist?

Carol Nutter: It did exist.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, when we talk about that being absent—

Carol Nutter: I think they treated Warren kind of bad, Warren Johnson—

Oloye Adeyemon: - mm-hmm. Why?

Carol Nutter: - junior high. Uh, he would come out with Fs on his grade card. And I don’t think [distorted audio 34:35] problem. Warren was dumb. I never thought that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Why do you think that he might’ve singled out?

Carol Nutter: Um, but he said, “They gave me an F, Kay, and I don’t why.” That’s what he told me.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I know that Ron—that he was not dumb. You know what I mean. I just wondered why. Just like they gave me those Ds.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: That, you know—and he-he believed, uh, at that time, he’s not here, but I think he thought that he shouldn’t have gotten it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: You know what I mean.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you agreed based—

Carol Nutter: I agreed—

Oloye Adeyemon: - on [crosstalk 34:58].

Carol Nutter: - that he shouldn’t have got that. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. 'Cause you knew what kind of student he was.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did the parents get involved when that happened?

Carol Nutter: I don’t know whether he—I never got to talk to the parents, or I didn’t see Warren after that for a while, so.

Oloye Adeyemon: What did your mother say or do when you got these Ds on your transcripts [crosstalk 35:12]?

Carol Nutter: I didn’t even tell my mother.

Oloye Adeyemon: You were afraid to.

Carol Nutter: Because she knew I didn’t—wouldn’t make nothing like that.

Oloye Adeyemon: You were afraid she was gonna shutdown Topeka High?

Carol Nutter: I didn’t tell her. I didn’t. No, I didn’t-I didn’t tell her. But I knew it was a prejudiced thing. I said, “Well, I’ll let it go.” I’m the type of person, God always has a soft word [distorted audio 35:26].

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And that’s in the bible. So, uh, my father always said that too, “Don’t, because anger stirs up strife.” So, my father said, “Don’t-don’t holler at anybody. Just be soft spoken.” Well, I have a tendency to talk loud because I have a bad ear from an accident I had a long time ago.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I don’t need to talk loud, or try to scare somebody with my voice, or anything like that.

Oloye Adeyemon: It could also be maybe some of that fire that your mother had.

Carol Nutter: Well, it may be that I’ve taken [distorted audio 35:51]. She had quite a bit of fire. I’ll never compare to her.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: But I had a praying grandmother who was a black lady, the Black-Black Hawk Indian I was telling you about. Now too bad I didn’t bring her book. She wrote a book called, “Miracles and Visions of Today,” by Mother Dora Culpeper Sudduth. Her name was Culpeper, which in Indian means mountain. It—also it’s with one P is Jewish. So, I kind of think she—because of those miracles that she wrote, she had a little black jew in her. Because of the fact, oh, she goes back to Moses. I traced her family history back to Moses. I mean, way back to biblical times.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: I don’t know whether you’d say Moses, but that far back.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Let’s put it like that. And I couldn’t find anything bad on my grandmother at all.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: She would touch people, and through Jesus they’d be healed. And she wore white every Sunday with a big [distorted audio 36:37].

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: And that-that book, what she did is that there was a man that was supposed to been pronounced dead that she brought back to life through Jesus.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Or through Jesus, this man was brought back to life.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: That wasn’t supposed to live and, uh, the first thing she did is that when she was about 15 years old, she was in Salem, Georgia. And she fell over backwards in this woman’s arms in the book it told this.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And said God took her to heaven for three days, and she saw these doves. And when she come back, she could start healing people.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: Well, I asked God to do the same thing for me. I said, “Would you give me that gift that my grandmother used to have?” So, he gave me some other kind of gift. But I still have some gift to help others, you know, with the healing and all, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: So, uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, what-what I think I’m getting from what you’re saying now is that—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - you know, this is something that’s very much a part, it’s like a-a-a theme that’s running through your family history.

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: And that to understand your mother doing this, and how you feel about it—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - you know, you really have to understand, you know, the place that God plays in your life.

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: And in your family’s-your family’s life. Going back to the church that you belong to, uh, was that a church—was that one of the churches were they end up [fading voice 37:52]?

Carol Nutter: Uh, now I don’t know whether they’ve ever held meetings there, or anything like that. But I-I do know that my church—our church was a mixed church. They would invite anybody in. It made no difference what—'cause we have white people in that church now that’s been changed over to Capital City.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Um, it’s Lane Chapel-Chapel now. But, uh, Pastor Marshall is—Robert Marshall is our pastor that I belong to—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: - with the church I belong to right now.

Oloye Adeyemon: The reason I ask is because I understood that when petition got started—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - that there were a lot of meetings in the [crosstalk 38:24].

Carol Nutter: They-they could’ve been held there. Uh, I don’t remember that part of it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. You would’ve been kind of young.

Carol Nutter: Because I had—I was kind of young then. So, I don’t remember that part. But at that particular time, the NAACP I do remember mother at one time joined the NAACP. 'Cause they used to have the colored Y. It used to be a Y, they called it the colored Y.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Where was that at?

Carol Nutter: In those days, they didn’t say black. They said colored.

Oloye Adeyemon: Where was that located?

Carol Nutter: Um, it’s, uh, right down here. Uh, it’s past the police station.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: It was on the righthand side there with the—uh, that’s on Kansas Avenue I think. It would be on the righthand side.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Hmm.

Carol Nutter: And we used to go up there to the Y a lot.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now—

Carol Nutter: It was a segregated Y is what it was.

Oloye Adeyemon: - mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: It should’ve been-it should’ve been segregated, but they had to call it the YMCA, which is what I’m saying, the colored Y.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, was your mother involved in—

Carol Nutter: In NAACP.

Oloye Adeyemon: - getting that integrated?

Carol Nutter: Uh, yes. I think she ended up getting that integrated where other people you could mix and stuff like that as I remember.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Uh, the Trice girls used to go down there. I don’t know where they are now, but they-they used to belong to that Y down there.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, when-when the case went to trial, uh, and the Supreme Court decision was granted, were you—are—were you old enough at that time to have conversations with your mother about it?

Carol Nutter: Uh, I just heard them talking about it. Me myself, I didn’t know. I just know that it was about the segregation in the schools and stuff.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And my mother was trying to, you know, get that, you know, taken care of where people could go, you know.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And she would do this.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were you clear that your brother was able to go to the white elementary school because of that case?

Carol Nutter: Uh, yes. Yes. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: What would you say about the changes that came about as a result of that?

Carol Nutter: Well, I think that, uh-uh, the black people in the community and, uh, minority people were able to get a better education. And, uh, after that, I don’t think it was really any problem, you know, with the—if it was a problem, nobody knew it. I know my daughter had a-a few problems. Uh, she’s, as I say, Crystal was kind of blonde haired, blue eyed. And she had a little problem with the people blackening her eyes. Because, “Oh, you’re not black. You’re white,” you know.

And she-she never would say she was white. She married a black husband, you know. 'Cause I didn’t teach her to be prejudiced. I never did teach my daughter to do that. But she had a lot of problems because of the color of her skin being light.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was she getting these problems from blacks or whites?

Carol Nutter: Uh, well I think the majority I can’t really say. This particular time it was a black person. But I just—I don’t know. I never taught 'em that. She came home—of course, Porsha, she was brown skinned, the other daughter. And she had green eyes. And she’d come and beat 'em up. That’s what she did. She beat up somebody. I don’t remember what it was. But Porsha would take no stuff if somebody messed with-with her sister.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: And, uh, she’s a gourmet cook. And she didn’t have many problems when she was going through school, Porsha didn’t.

Oloye Adeyemon: What about the education they received? Were you satisfied?

Carol Nutter: I think-I think-I think they received a good—a very good, uh, education. I really believe that. I think that they did. And I still, like I say, Buchanan School I wouldn’t trade it for a hill of beans. Because I tell you the truth, it-it was a good school. I learned a lot from it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: I really did. But I wanted to tell you this too, since you have me here today, uh, I was in an auto accident four years ago. And I knew there was something that God wanted me to do for the people. And, um, in this accident, this drunken driver hit me. I was in Tulsa coming from the reservation in Oklahoma, going back to see about mom’s records.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: So, that we could see about our Indian, you know, money and so forth, and just Indian inheritance together, whether it’s money or not. But this man hit me, and cut the car in half. The car that—I had just bought this car. And like a tunnel of light came in. I was in this tunnel of light, and they pronounced me dead. Here I was totally unconscious for about I guess it must’ve been 15 minutes. I woke up. This man was saying, “She’s dead, she’s dead. She’s gotta be dead.” I said, “Oh, my God.” And I thought about my grandmother.

I said—and then I said to myself, I said, “Jesus brought Lazarus back.” I said, “Lazarus come forth.” And I came out of that, and you know that trooper gave me three tickets because he still proceeded that I was dead, and was telling the people that he was—that I was dead. And had told my sister, Vicky, on the phone, “She’s dead. I don’t know why she’s standing here.” And, uh, God bought me out of this tunnel of-of light for something.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: So, what happened is a year after that I got, uh, a hold of this Egyptian bus that’s very valuable, it’s worth millions of dollars, at a garage sale. It was from Egypt.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: And I’ve tried to sell it and everything. Uh, and then I went to school, Dawson’s Jewelry sitting here to go to Geological Institute of America, and I now am, uh, what I call a student-student jeweler. And I have had everything, uh, tested and everything through this rockhound gemologist. That is John Peck. He’s German, but he was a rockhound gemologist. And I’m trying to sell this to help the people in the community, you know. Every-everybody that’s in need, whatever color they are, whatever nationality.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: I have not been able to sell it. It is all platinum, and does have some seiridium, uh, iridium in it. If I’d known that I was gonna be on TV like this, I would’ve probably brought it so you could’ve seen it. But I keep it in the Common Bank.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: It’s very, very valuable. And I hope some day to get it sold right away.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: I have a whole book on it, a whole thing on it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.

Carol Nutter: And, uh, I knew there was something that God wanted me to do. Uh, and so, I think that’s one of the things that he gave this to me for. I don’t know who’s gonna buy it, but he’s revealed to me that somebody is gonna buy it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Any advice to students—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - that might be listening to this about, you know—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - because after all—

Carol Nutter: Mm-hmm.

Oloye Adeyemon: - you know, opportunities exist today that didn’t exist—

Carol Nutter: Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: - before? Anything that you [crosstalk 43:53]?

Carol Nutter: My advice is to, uh, to any student, no matter what nationality they are, blacks, or whatever, 'cause the black people now has-has more chances than the people in my mom’s day had.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: You know what I mean. Um, to at least just believe that, you know, you’re just as good as anybody else. Don’t grow up with this inferiority complex. I’m black, I can’t do it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Just say that you’re an American, and you can do it. You’re born in America, be proud of that, you know, and just be proud to be American. Everybody’s got these flags out here.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: It’s not just America. God loves all nations.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Carol Nutter: Uh, it makes no different what nationality they are, and hopefully we can just have an all-nations flag, you know-you know. That’s what I’m saying, just be with Jesus.

Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.

Carol Nutter: 'Cause I think one day all of us are gonna be like Jesus. That’s all I can say I think.

Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.