Oral History Interview with Barbara Dodson Walker

Barbara Dodson Walker

NPS

Oral History Interview with Barbara Dodson Walker
JULY 21, 2001

INTERVIEWED BY OLOYE ADEYEMON
The transcript below corresponds to the media embedded on this page

BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

EDITORIAL NOTICE

The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. Due to the sensitive nature of the interview, it may contain inflammatory language that some find offensive. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition.

ABSTRACT

Barbara Dodson Walker was born in Washington D.C., on January 18, 1930. Her parents, Dr. Joseph Nolan Dodson and Naomi Althea Neil Dodson had 2 children, Jean Marie Dodson Jackson, and Joanne Dodson Birch. Dodson grew up in Washington D.C. and attended Howard University for her undergraduate degree in education. She goes into detail about her families experience in the Maryland/Washington D.C. area and how they overcame their struggles using education. She later explains what she and her family went through over the course of the Bolling v. Sharpe Case.

People mentioned: Joseph Nolan Dodson, Naomi Althea Neil Dodson, Jean Marie Dodson Jackson, Joanne Dodson Birch, Dr. Reedy, Wendell Philips, James Wormley, Dr. Nixon, Dr. Russel, Betty Brooks.

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Transcript

Oloye Adeyemon:        Brown v. Board, Oral History Collection, Washington D.C. School Segregation-Desegregation Interviews. Interviewee, Mrs. Barbara Walker. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon, for the National Park Service. Interview conducted on July 21st, 2001, in the home of Mrs. Walker in Washington D.C. These interviews are made possible through Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project, funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001.

                                    As part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic site Oral History Project. Mrs. Walker, what is your full name?

Barbara Dodson:        Barbara Anne Dodson Walker.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And what is your birthdate?

Barbara Dodson:        January 18th, 1930.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And where were you born?

Barbara Dodson:        Washington D.C.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And who were your parents?

Barbara Dodson:        Our father is Joseph Nolan Dodson. We came up [unintelligible 01:13] doctor here in Washington who went through public schools here and went to Howard University in undergraduate and graduate school. My mother is—was—her name was Naomi Althea Neil. And married a Dodson. But everybody knew her by Althea. Um, she’s-she went to public school. She went—she went, uh, to public schools through what was then by the normal school. When I went to it, it was Teachers’ College.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. And did you have brothers and sisters?

Barbara Dodson:        I had a sister. Have—I had one sister who is two years younger than I am and one sister who is 19 years younger. The sisters 19-years younger than I, uh, we went to public school except for the, uh, Catholic School. We went to seventh, eighth, and ninth grade. Then we went to public school. [Unintelligible 02:14].

Oloye Adeyemon:        Both. What were your sisters’ names?

Barbara Dodson:        My sisters—the sister next to me is Jean Marie Dodson Jackson. And she married the boy next door, really.

Oloye Adeyemon:        [Laugh] And-and your younger sister?

Barbara Dodson:        My youngest sister is Joanne Dodson Birch.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. And what—I think I understood you to say your father was a medical doctor?

Barbara Dodson:        Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now, um, when he became a medical doctor, um, were there many medical—black medical doctors in Washington D.C.?

Barbara Dodson:        I don’t guess so. Uh, at that time, we’re talking about the turn—uh, the 1930s. Early 1930s. I guess I knew a lot of them, because that was—that was a group of people that my father associated with were his classmates, they were his contemporaries. So those are the people. Those were people that I knew.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Where did your father graduate?

Barbara Dodson:        From Howard.

Oloye Adeyemon:        He did go to Howard?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. He went to Howard as an undergraduate student and Howard as a grad in-in medical school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And he was from D.C. himself?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. Yeah. We can go back to 1832 there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Was there something about the work that his parents did that led him to become a doctor?

Barbara Dodson:        Not that I know of. Um, my-my grandmother Alwate was a wash lady.

Oloye Adeyemon:        His mother?

Barbara Dodson:        His mother was a wash lady.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And his father?

Barbara Dodson:        And his father, as my grandmother said, that he worked on the waterfront down in Georgetown, and that he spoke Hebrew very well. So that he could go to the store and bargain for his groceries and things like that all because he spoke Hebrew. I had no idea what he did. And just beginning to ramble out the different Josephs, A and Joseph B. I find in the different records.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Of the-of the Dodson’s?

Barbara Dodson:        Uh-huh. I think one is his—one was Josephs—one was a father and one was a son.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. And so he, um, was not—his parents did not, um, you know—

Barbara Dodson:        No. My grandma’s education—no my grandmother’s education stopped when she was in third grade. And if you look up—think about education in the third grade, and my grandmother said she remembered the, uh, soldiers coming up the road for the civil war. We figure that if she remembers that we talk about it. She might have been about three or four at that time. And that—no, she didn’t have—not—neither she nor her sisters were educated.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And was she born free?

Barbara Dodson:        Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Here in Washington.

Barbara Dodson:        Here—not Washington, but in Montgomery County.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Maryland?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. And was your father’s father from D.C.?

Barbara Dodson:        They were free. Identified they were free. They were free. I found that in the records at Holy Trinity Church; they were free.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Were they here in D.C.?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. They lived in Georgetown.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, wha-with your mother’s people—was she—

Barbara Dodson:        With my mother’s people.

Oloye Adeyemon:        -was a-was a housewife?

Barbara Dodson:        No. No. My mother’s people—my, uh, grandfather, uh, came to Washington to work. He-he was a lawyer. He had gone to North Carolina A and T. And I found him.

Oloye Adeyemon:        This is your grandfather?

Barbara Dodson:        My-my mother’s father. He’d gone to North Carolina A and T. He came from a family where his mother was a, uh, was a child of the master and she was educated. She did, uh, she taught school in North Carolina in the Winston/Salem era—area.

Oloye Adeyemon:        His mother, your great grandmother?

Barbara Dodson:        My great grandmother. And she—

Oloye Adeyemon:        What year would she have been teaching?

Barbara Dodson:        [Sigh] Well, papa finished in 18—we’re talking about early 1800s. I find—I don't know when Lina was born. I do know—I did find out 1820 will for a Low. And I find, uh, Lina’s mother, sister and brother mentioned in that will.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. So he would’ve gone to law school after being of slavery, though?

Barbara Dodson:        Oh yeah. Yeah. He fit—because papa—

Oloye Adeyemon:        And she was teaching during that?

Barbara Dodson:        Then the-no-pap-yeah. She-she went because her husband left her and went north. He worked in –uh, my grand—my great grandfather left Lina and went north to—he worked in the coalmines in West Virginia for a while, but he moved on to Detroit. And so—and all I-I can find—that he was a tobacco appraiser in North Carolina. I don’t have any idea what an appraiser was, but—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now, back to your grandfather on your mother’s side. He became a lawyer.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And he came to D.C. to practice law?

Barbara Dodson:        I guess so. Yeah. He was here. He-he—I find him here in the 1900 census. He lived—

Oloye Adeyemon:        He was already practicing at that time?

Barbara Dodson:        No. He was a young man. I don't know that he had started practicing.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see. Now, what about his wife? What did she do?

Barbara Dodson:        My grandmother—I-I find—as the more I talk to my aunt, the more I find out about her; she did, uh, she cooked. She cooked. She would go up to Howard. She would have special events. They would ask her to come up and help cook. She worked in the recreation department where she taught crafts and things that I saw. Uh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        When-when was she doing that?

Barbara Dodson:        She—grandma did that I guess until the early 30s.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        And then she went on, and the end of—up until the—after she did the recreation department, then she started—she was second cook at Madeira School out in Virginia.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. What did-what did your mother do?

Barbara Dodson:        My mother taught school. She-she finished, uh, minor when it was a normal school. When it was two years. And her field was home economics. And uh, she went south to teach. And I-I don’t know the history about what happened, why they didn’t need all of these home economic teachers. I don't know if around the—and she finished about—uh—she finished in 1928.

I don’t—or-or maybe about—a little earlier when she finished minor. Because they didn’t need—I don't know if they changed their curriculum so that every school didn’t have a home economics teacher or not. But she went south to teach. But she didn’t though. The principal was kind of fresh there, so she just caught the boat and came home. They were looking for her.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Where was this at?

Barbara Dodson:        This was—she says she caught the oyster boat and came up the Bay. The principal was looking for her. She had—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Where was—where was the school?

Barbara Dodson:        I don’t really know.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Oh. Where was it near?

Barbara Dodson:        I know—I do know she went to Goldsborough, and she went to Greensborough in North Carolina.

Oloye Adeyemon:        In North Carolina?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah, to teach.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Oh okay.

Barbara Dodson:        I know she did. Because I remember talking about things they did down there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        This was before she got married?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So wha—

Barbara Dodson:        Then she came back here, and she taught at Parker Gray School in Alexandria for a very short time. Because that was a Home Economics program. But then she changed over and she taught at Niles Crouch School, which was an elementary school where she taught first and second grade.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And that was in Washington?

Barbara Dodson:        That was in—no. That was in Alexandria, Virginia.

Oloye Adeyemon:        That was in Alexandria also, as well.

Barbara Dodson:        And uh, then when that—when she stopped that, then she began to substitute in the public schools.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Here in Washington?

Barbara Dodson:        Here in Washington.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. Okay. So, did she continue after you? After she got married and had a—had a family?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        She continued to substitute?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah, she continued to substitute. And then later, after a while, she went to teach at a private nursery school. Uh, Mrs. Howards Nursery School.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Was that at [unintelligible 10:50] Americas?

Barbara Dodson:        Huh? Yeah. This was a—this is a, um, a woman who started a nursery school and had it for many years. Uh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        When would she have started it?

Barbara Dodson:        She—well, that I don't know. Um. I know—I know when—in the 40s; she was—she’d stopped I guess about, let’s see—Joy was born in 49, so she stopped about in the 50s. And that nursery school was about—it was very old.

Oloye Adeyemon:        At that time.

Barbara Dodson:        At that time. This was a school. And she lived where this nursery school was. There was an area where there were judges, doctors, lawyers and teachers all live in that neighborhood.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What was that?

Barbara Dodson:        On S Street, uh, and-and, um—just above Dupont Circle.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Barbara Dodson:        There were—blacks live there. A record of Deans live there. They all lived between R and S Street, between New Hampshire Avenue and, I would say, 18 Street.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. When you were coming through the schools, uh, they were strictly segregated at that time?

Barbara Dodson:        Oh yeah. All the schools were very strictly segregated. It was so segregated that I had—in the corner from me, and I lived at 27th and P Street, and then, uh—there was a little girl, Barbara, who lived in the—uh, over a grocery store. She was white. She had to pass Philips. She—Philips School and walk another block to get to-get to Corprin School. So she had to go a block further than I did to get to school, because the schools were segregated.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. What year did you start school?

Barbara Dodson:        Thirty-five.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. And what—where did you live at the time you started school?

Barbara Dodson:        I lived 20—2443 P Street North West.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Which we would put in there 24th Street?

Barbara Dodson:        No. Uh-huh. I-I lived on this side of the bridge. Georgetown begins on the west side of the creek.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. What creek was that?

Barbara Dodson:        Rock Creek Park. Rock Creek.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, were you in Georgetown?

Barbara Dodson:        I was in Georgetown.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. There weren’t that many black in Georgetown at the time, hey?

Barbara Dodson:        Oh yeah, there were blacks there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Barbara Dodson:        Blacks lived in Georgetown. And as I look at—as I get older and look at where people live, blacks lived around a-a section. We-we bordered—we—it was like little ants go into the house and they come out. And that’s what a lot of blacks did. A lot of blacks did—were the domestics—they were, uh—the beginning—our-our grandparents were—a lot of them were domestics that worked in-in the homes. And they would go in and come out.

White people lived, basically, from 28th Street to 35th Street. From our street down to, uh, um, N Street, Olive Avenue, a little further south. And the black people went in. And if you go to Georgetown, make—take somebody with you. They could show you the houses. Because the houses that blacks lived in were big—were two rooms up and two rooms down. That was it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And they were close to the houses where they worked?

Barbara Dodson:        Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. Now, my grandmother worked for a Dr. Reedy who sa—who was a doctor, and his son became a physician. His son was head of the Veteran’s Hospital. Now my grandmother was a wash lady for-for him. And my grandmother, uh, I would—I would walk up from 2443 P Street up to Dr. Reedy’s house.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        And we would walk up there with her and she’d say, “All right. See you later”. Then she put us on the square. And my sister didn’t go. I did.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Yeah. Now, let me—let me make sure I’m clear. Uh, this is not the area where most blacks lived at the time?

Barbara Dodson:        Yes it is.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Because they were there. Was there also—where was Dunbar and Armstrong?

Barbara Dodson:        Dunbar—Dunbar and Armstrong are—are not in that neighborhood at all. Dunbar and Armstrong are in—I forget what—I don't know what they call it, Samson Town?

Oloye Adeyemon:        So that was at—

Barbara Dodson:        They had—at First Street, it had always been there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, this was a different African American community?

Barbara Dodson:        Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        From that, actually.

Barbara Dodson:        Yes, this was a different African American community. In fact, my father went to Dunbar and he wo-he-he rode a bicycle to get there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        To get from 36th Street to First Street. He would ride a bicycle. Because he said when he found out his father died, he came home on the, uh—he-he came home through the snow on his bicycle to get home. And uh, a lot of those two people walked to school from up there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        We only had—up in-in Georgetown. We had two elementary schools. That was it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        For African Americans?

Barbara Dodson:        For African Americans.

Oloye Adeyemon:        We had Philips, which was named for Wendell Philips. And we had Wormley, that was named for a black man, Wormley. Who was—you heard about Wormley in the last election where they held a meeting there to decide about the elections and things. Uh, James Wormley that, um, that was him. That’s-that’s who that school is named for. The Washington schools—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Wormley was involved in what election? What were you saying about him?

Barbara Dodson:        Again, I don’t know which election it was. But it was one of those back in the early 1800s.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And he was an African American?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        He was a legislator?

Barbara Dodson:        No. He was a—I will look in one of those books. He was a—he had a hotel at 15th and 8th Street Northwest.

Oloye Adeyemon:        How was he involved with the electoral process?

Barbara Dodson:        His hotel was made available for them to use it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Oh okay. Okay.

Barbara Dodson:        I think that’s it. If not, I got some stuff upstairs I can share with you.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So—

Barbara Dodson:        So we had two elementary schools—two elementary schools.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Two elementary schools, no junior highs?

Barbara Dodson:        No. To go to junior high school you had to—and there was no way to get there but to walk. You could—even though school tickets cost three cents, and it cost you six cents a day. That was a lot of money for-for people—and the children walked from 36th Street, across the bridge to Francis Junior High School.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see. Now that would mean, then, that um—what was it—the case that Georgetown did not have a high school because the-the African American community was a smaller community than the other one.

Barbara Dodson:        oh yeah. Yeah. We were set—the-the high—the elementary schools service a community. Um, we didn’t have—and there really weren’t enough black children in the—

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see, in that Georgetown area?

Barbara Dodson:        In that—in the Georgetown area to support-to support a Junior High School.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see. With the, um—when you entered elementary school, uh, what was the name of your elementary school for me?

Barbara Dodson:        I went-I went to—I went to Wormley, because my father didn’t like the kindergarten teacher. He was hitting people. Hitting—

Oloye Adeyemon:        At, um—

Barbara Dodson:        At Philips.

Oloye Adeyemon:        At Philips.

Barbara Dodson:        So I went to Wormley School first and then I went to-to Philips School.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And where was that school located?

Barbara Dodson:        Wormley is at 35th and Prospect, which is further. Which was further from my home. Then Philips is at 27 then N.

Oloye Adeyemon:        [Unintelligible 18:51]

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Is that school still standing?

Barbara Dodson:        Both-both of those schools are on the historic list. Um, Philips School—uh, Wormley School, I don’t—it was an administration school, and it was a school for, um, Americanization way over there. I don't know who they were. Who-who, uh—who came there. But that’s what that—that’s what it was, an Americanization school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        Philips School has now been sold. And they—

Oloye Adeyemon:        What do you mean when you say Americanization school?

Barbara Dodson:        A school for foreign—for—uh, for—um, assisting—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Back then it was?

Barbara Dodson:        No. Uh-huh. No. This is recent.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Oh, okay.

Barbara Dodson:        And I don't know what it is right now.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see. Uh, but Wormley is still attended by students?

Barbara Dodson:        No.

Oloye Adeyemon:        No.

Barbara Dodson:        No we’re—there—there are no children I don't think. There’s not enough children in that area to support a school. Uh, that school is night school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What happened to it?

Barbara Dodson:        Well, in, uh—in the 1950s, when Truman came in, Georgetown became the place—“the place to live”. And, consequently, what happened is that, uh, blacks did not own their homes. A lot of blacks were renting. And they came in and condemned the homes, renovated them so that a lot of them had electricity and gas and running water. Because a lot of – a lot of those places didn’t have those things.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Earlier on.

Barbara Dodson:        Early on. I’m talking about in—yeah, in early on. And so when they did that, the-the blacks were moved out.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. And what—and so there was not a need for a black school?

Barbara Dodson:        No. And population dwindled and dwindled. And then when—as-as we get further into the—uh—in-into the area, until later years when we had desegregation, then those children went to, uh, Jackson School. Which is up on our street.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see.

Barbara Dodson:        And they had to walk up there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. What was the elementary school education like that you received?

Barbara Dodson:        Well, I tell you it was a lot—it-it was good as far as I can remember. My father-my father had the idea that they were just passing us because he was the school physician.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        So he decided then I’m taking you out of there. That’s why we went to Parochial School for the seventh, eighth and ninth.

Oloye Adeyemon:        All three of—all three of these?

Barbara Dodson:        No. No. Just—well, to—yeah. I—my sister and I went. And then, later, my younger sister went for a whole different reason. Because her—her reason was—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Let me come back to that.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Because she’s so much younger than you.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Um, so you went to private school for your high school years?

Barbara Dodson:        No. Just for seventh, eighth and ninth grade.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Then you went back to public school?

Barbara Dodson:        You had to. Because there was no Catholic schools for black ch—no high school in Washington D.C. for blacks in high school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So there was a segregated Catholic junior high but no Catholic high school?

Barbara Dodson:        No Catholic high school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. So when you went back into the public school—

Barbara Dodson:        I went to Dunbar.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What did you—did you see a difference between the elementary education, public and then the junior high and then the public high school?

Barbara Dodson:        How did I know? I went—I was sent to school. But I wasn’t there to question.

Oloye Adeyemon:        But I just mean in terms of the—in terms of the teachers and the—and the—and the studies?

Barbara Dodson:        Oh, not at that time.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Were they more difficult? Or the same?

Barbara Dodson:        Not at that time. Not at that time. You know, I talk—I’m talk—I went to-I went to, uh, to high school at a time when my teachers were people who had been away to school. Who had—some of them had Ph.Ds. teaching in high school. So, we had people who were—uh, who came with a purpose. Their purpose was to help you learn and to help you move ahead. Now, people that—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Was that the case where it was the private school or the public school? The Catholic school board or—

Barbara Dodson:        Well the Cath—you know, I don't think you can compare those. The Catholic school had one seventh grade, one eighth grade and one ninth grade. That was it. And you got your lessons, and that was it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Did nuns teach, or?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. No. Oh yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So they were whites teaching?

Barbara Dodson:        No. these were black nuns.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Black nuns?

Barbara Dodson:        These were the Oblates Sisters of Providence.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What are they called?

Barbara Dodson:        Oblates Sisters of Providence.

Oloye Adeyemon:        How do you spell that?

Barbara Dodson:        O-B-L-A-T-E-S of Providence.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Barbara Dodson:        And their motherhouse is there still. They don’t have many, but their motherhouse is over in Baltimore on Gone Road.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So, in all of that education, you found that the teachers were well qualified and dedicated?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. I think that I came—I came along at a time when, um, black teachers, uh, in-in the high school, they had—um, I had Dr. Nixon. He was a biology teacher. Dr. Russel. These were high school teachers with Ph.Ds. And they-they didn’t have factories where you got them. These were people who did it. And I’m talking—I’m talking about in the 40s.

I finished high school in 47, so we’re talking about people who have been to college, and these were people who had degrees. And when I went to—when I went to teachers’ college, I found the same thing. And when we had—when the integration came, and we looked at the teachers’ colleges, Wilson Teachers’ College and Minor Teachers’ College, they found that the teachers at Minor had Ph.Ds.’ teaching, and the teachers at Wilson had certificates.

Oloye Adeyemon:        White teachers?

Barbara Dodson:        White teachers. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So white teachers were teaching with a certificate which you could get in less than two years?

Barbara Dodson:        Evidently. I don't know what the grounds were for-for getting it. But we-um, um, most of our teachers had Ph.Ds.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Um, is it the case that, um, you had teachers with Ph.Ds. teaching in your schools sometimes, because they were not able to do other kinds of work that Ph—or the kind of work that a Ph.D. might have qualified them for?

Barbara Dodson:        We’re talking about a time when blacks were just beginning to get somewhere. We’d be just beginning—there were jobs—there weren’t the kinds of company jobs that we have now. All these—you don’t have those kinds of places that did it. I think, uh, you know, a guy in my class came out, and he got a job with, uh, uh, by one of these companies. And we were really amazed.

He was—his—from the Teachers’ College he got-he got a job that he was able to, uh, go to a 500 company. But, uh, a lot of times those jobs we just didn’t have. You were a doctor, you were a lawyer, or you were a teacher. That was your job.

Here, in Washington, the other alternatives were—there—there—you worked at the, uh, Bureau of Printing. You worked at the—g—uh, government printing office, or the men worked at the Navy yard. Or-or you—don’t—I don’t hear women working at the Navy yard. I always hear of men working at the Navy yard. I don't know what they did. But that’s where they worked.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        Those were the jobs that were available. And even years before, when we had men who finished law school; a lot them did—a lot of them worked like waiters, and things of that sort. There was just nobody to hire them.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. So was there anything that happened during your elementary school years that you think shaped your later choices, in terms of career, in terms of education?

Barbara Dodson:        I think the teachers I had. The teachers I had were strong teachers, I think. Um, I have—uh, I had teachers who-who were there to teach us. People who were dedicated to what was going on. And, uh, I work—I worked with a teacher who did not teach me but taught in the building where I was.

And she said Georgetown was just different from teaching anywhere else. That she felt that in Georgetown she had more support from parents. And I think when teachers know you got support from parents, and parents are looking at what’s going on and participating, I think they’re—they just do their best.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        And we had a strong principal.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. So, when you went into the Catholic school and then onto high school, had you already decided you were going to be a schoolteacher?

Barbara Dodson:        I don't know what I wanted to be. I don’t—I don’t—I don't know. I guess I had. Because we played school all the time. Like, line the doll babies up on the truck and teach them. And that’s how I learned the—how the, uh, tenses of verbs, and things of that sort. We’d do those. We’d have, uh, schoolbooks that we’d get to do those kinds of things. But maybe that’s when I decided. I just don’t remember that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Did your mother want you to become a schoolteacher?

Barbara Dodson:        She didn’t say no.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        My fa—my sister wanted to be a physician. And my father said no. He said it’s too hard for women. And, um, we’re talking about the early 40s. And he said it was too hard for her.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What did she choose instead, to do?

Barbara Dodson:        She-she went to work at, uh, the state department as—and I will say a liaison person there with, um, uh, countries. Because she-she serviced the diplomatic core.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. And what about your other sister? Do you know?

Barbara Dodson:        My other sister’s a teacher.

Oloye Adeyemon:        That’s the younger one?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. The other younger one teaches school, too.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Yeah. So, when you graduated from high school, where did you go to?

Barbara Dodson:        I went to Minor.

Oloye Adeyemon:        You said—

Barbara Dodson:        Minor Teachers’ College.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Minor once had been a normal school.

Barbara Dodson:        Normal school. Now it as a Teachers’ College. And it was four—changed to four years. I don't know when that happened. But I know that’s—that it did happen. Uh, it was a four-year school. And, uh, I didn’t und—didn’t fully understand about the importance of what they did. But they give a—they give you a Bachelor of Science degree. Which means that—versus a Bachelor of Arts, you do more reading and writing.

And we did. We did do reading and research and papers and things of that sort that we had to do. Uh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. We had more science. It was—

Barbara Dodson:        We had the sci—I guess you mean the science of teaching.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Barbara Dodson:        -and that kind of thing. Because we did do that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see. So, when you graduated from there you went to work immediately as a schoolteacher?

Barbara Dodson:        I sure did.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Where?

Barbara Dodson:        I taught at Garrison, William Lord Garrison Elementary School.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Where was Minor located?

Barbara Dodson:        Minor was and still is on Georgia Avenue, right across the street from Howard University in Georgia.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And you went to what school when you graduated?

Barbara Dodson:        Garrison.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Where is that?

Barbara Dodson:        It’s—now, it’s, uh—I think it sits on, um, Aura Street. But when I taught, it was on 12th Street. But they closed 12th Street and filled it in with—closed in that hole. Locked the playground. And also, now, the school there goes from Vermont Avenue over to 13th Street. But it once—when it—the initial school, the original school opening was on 12th Street between Aura now.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So they tore it down and enlarged the area?

Barbara Dodson:        And made—yeah. Made it a modern school there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        It’s still got—still has the same name?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        Still the same name.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And what grade did you teach?

Barbara Dodson:        First grade.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. And how long did you teach?

Barbara Dodson:        Thirty years.

Oloye Adeyemon:        At that one school?

Barbara Dodson:        No. No. No.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Where did you go from there?

Barbara Dodson:        After-after I had a baby, I went to a different school for each baby. [Laugh]. Except the first time. I went out there with one baby and had two. So I taught—I taught at-at, um, I taught at, um, Garrison. And then I went out and had my son and a daughter. And then I went back. I went to Sumner School. Charles Sumner School. Which is no longer a school but a, um—

Oloye Adeyemon:        A museum.

Barbara Dodson:        Museum and archives.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. And Sumner was one of the oldest of all the African American schools there.

Barbara Dodson:        It-it is the oldest one. That one was built with, um, uh, they had to pass two laws there. When the school was initially to be built, they were going to collect taxes from the-from the free people. But we’re talking about right after the civil war. So there wasn’t enough money to support that. So then they had to pass two laws to get that—that, uh, school established. That school building was about to be torn down, um—

Oloye Adeyemon:        [Unintelligible 32:49].

Barbara Dodson:        No. After I left there, they rented it to a private school. And the—because there were no children in that area, they-they rebuilt—they tore down a lot of the houses, and people moved there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        For the African American families?

Barbara Dodson:        But wa—yeah. And uh, they, uh, put in a—a lot of apartments. And apartments for single people. And I taught there, uh, 56 to 58.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So it was almost 100 years when—old—90 years old when you taught there.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. When I got there. And-but, uh—but over the time when they had nobody in it, the roof had holes in it. And they were about to tear it down. And they um, they got it saved and restored and renovated. There was—they did a lot of renovations, believe me. A lot of reno-renovations from the time I was there teaching.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. So you were at—what school again, at first?

Barbara Dodson:        I was at Garrison.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Junior high. I mean, elementary.

Barbara Dodson:        Elementary. Then I went to, uh, Sumner.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Sumner Elementary.

Barbara Dodson:        Sumner as an elementary school. And that school, uh—Sumner School has served every grade from pre-school through college. Because Matilda Minor met there and held classes in Sumner School there—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Minor Teachers’ College you started off with?

Barbara Dodson:        Was-was-was—it was—had been in that building also.

Oloye Adeyemon:        That was when it was a normal school?

Barbara Dodson:        Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. So—

Barbara Dodson:        Then from there, I went to Scott Montgomery School at, um, New Jersey Avenue and, um, First Street.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And that’s where you retired from?

Barbara Dodson:        No. I’d been to more schools than that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        And then after that, I went to—uh, after that I had a baby. I went to, um, uh, Harrison School, which is now a private school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        Uh, that’s one of the charter schools.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        And then from there I went to—I went to Eugene Clark school for a hot month.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Which-which one is that?

Barbara Dodson:        It’s up-it’s up here, 7th and Wesley Street.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Private school.

Barbara Dodson:        No. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon:        What’s the name of it?

Barbara Dodson:        Eugene Clark.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay.

Barbara Dodson:        He had been—he had been the President of the Teachers’ College. That’s the 7th and Wesley. But then, uh, because I was working in a special program, working on my master’s degree, I went to J—J. L. Wilson at 8th and K.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Yeah.

Barbara Dodson:        Fifth and K, I mean.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Was that the last school?

Barbara Dodson:        No. Then I went to [Laugh]—then I went to Raw school, and I was there for about two years. And then I left there. And I went to, uh, Ruth Webb School out on Galley there. Out on the Nell Arby Road, Northeast.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Oh that—

Barbara Dodson:        That was it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        That was it.

Barbara Dodson:        [Laugh] That was it. That was it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Okay. Quite a career.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now—

Barbara Dodson:        All in the-in the city though. All but one school, Eugene. Where Eugene Clark was not on the—in the—in the city.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now, you started teaching in 49?

Barbara Dodson:        No. No, I started teaching 1951.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Fifty-one. And at what point were the schools integrated, or desegregated, I mean?

Barbara Dodson:        Desegregated; about 52. I answered the telephone and got-and got the Brown v. Board of Education.

Oloye Adeyemon:        It was before—it was before 54?

Barbara Dodson:        Well I started in 51. I don't know was it 54?

Oloye Adeyemon:        That’s then the Brown—

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        -decision was.

Barbara Dodson:        Okay. Yeah. Because yeah. Because that’s when I-I-I—that’s when I le—I left that June. Yeah. I answered the telephone. The telephone was ringing and ringing. And the principal’s office was in the middle, and we were having lunch. And the phone would ring. And I ran, went and answered the phone, and they said that that had been passed, The Brown v. Board of Education.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. So each school was notified?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Now, the schools were—were they immediately integrated or desegregated at that point?

Barbara Dodson:        Probably in the fall.

Oloye Adeyemon:        In the fall.

Barbara Dodson:        Probably in the fall. And people were waiting, you know. So much had happened. So much. So many things were happening with integration. Remember, the Catholic schools integrated the year before the public schools.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Did they—was that a year before public schools but still after Brown? Or was it before Brown?

Barbara Dodson:        This was before Brown. The Catholic schools were before Brown.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So now, black students could go to the high school?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        But you, uh—you know, as—you know what separates everything is the money. The cost of it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I know.

Barbara Dodson:        Uh, they, uh—they, uh—everybody was, uh, kind of on pins and needles wanting to know what was going to happen, because the schools were going to be integrated. But the neighborhoods were there to serve the schools. And children went to the school in their community. So even though you had desegregation, what was happening you went to the school in your community. So you’re—

Oloye Adeyemon:        So this is—after the [crosstalk 00:38:10] you were still in—

Barbara Dodson:        You’re still in a black school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        Now, my sis—my, uh, my, uh, sister was in a situation. And well she’ll tell you about her situation, where she had gone because she came in after that thing. Where she went to a, uh—she was in a different situation. But our communities were so—see Georgetown community is different from other communities because there were few black people there. They had moved them out. Out of there.

But most of the time, black communities had blacks—had most of their children were black. It’s still the same thing. The—most of the children are black in the black school. And the white schools, they still. That the problem was they said they had to integrate. So what did they do, they began to, um—how are we going to integrate the faculties.

And then began—you had to go to the interview for the job there, in the district of Columbia. I never got an interview. I protested one time about go—being transferred to another school and I was told, “Oh, Ms. Walker, I know you will do your best wherever you go”. And I was sent to the school that I—that they put the name on. And that was the end of it. But when they went-went—these teachers were handpicked to go over there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        And, you know, there’s one you should ta—he’s a prin—the woman was a principal. I mean if you’re interested in that part of the integration. Betty Brooks, who was in—who was a black principal in Georgetown. And in Western Park. Because that’s where—that’s where most of the white people lived. Now, on Capitol Hill, you had, um, a couple of schools.

But they handpicked the principals and the teachers. I-I just get the—I just think they—uh—they-they pick. The people had to put in their application. Well, you had to put in an application anyhow.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Now, what was the pr—what was the proce—what was the criteria? I mean, what were—what were they trying to achieve?

Barbara Dodson:        I don't know what. Well, trying to achieve integration. But, you know, the black—the white people didn’t want a teacher who was not up to snuff. That they—they did agree with. It’s like now, you know, you—they-they make out applications and you go in for an interview. And if they don’t particularly—your philosophy isn’t—doesn’t fit in with their philosophy, that could be so they might not hire you.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        So that could happen to you.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see.

Barbara Dodson:        It could still happen to you.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Sure.

Barbara Dodson:        Because they still do. They still do interviews for, uh, uh, schools. I heard they did one the other day, and, uh, the, uh, the black person came in, and they came in like she was ready to go. And presented a plan. And when it call came down, it came down to a racial matter.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        Whites for the white teachers, or white kids. And blacks were for the blacks. So it’s still there, because nothing has changed.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So how-how much change did you see in—when you were teaching? You know, you were teaching before this decision. You were teaching immediately afterwards. And continued to teach, you know, for—into the 70s.

Barbara Dodson:        Into the 80s.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Into the 80s.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        During that time, you started off teaching black children.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        When you came out of the system, what percentage of your students were black?

Barbara Dodson:        A hundred.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So when you started they were 100 percent black. And 30 years later they were still 100 percent?

Barbara Dodson:        Because I taught in black—I-I taught in the inner city, where the inner city is black. Now, you have one—I had—uh, I had one Chinese child in Sumner. I had one at, um, at Harrison. But no—but no white. Let’s see. I did have a little white girl. And we were wondering why she was there.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So what do you think the impact of that period was? Okay, the students did not—the students’ ratio did not change, uh, but the teacher ratio changed. There were—there became more white teachers in the system, didn’t it?

Interviewee                  Not in the black schools.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Not in the black schools.

Barbara Dodson:        I don’t—I know we—we had at—

Oloye Adeyemon:        So there was segregation in terms of students and teachers?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. We had—let me see. I think the first black—white teacher came in the 60s. We had a white—white girl. Um, I can’t even remember her name now. She taught kindergarten. Uh, had a white girl that taught kindergarten. And we got a white guy who was—they were—and this is—this is what made me make some decisions about my own children. Who—they needed a warm body.

And he was. He-he had—his field was political science. But—and-and he took—you took an education course, you know, to fill out your time. And he—but he—he said he wanted to be a lobbyist. That’s what he wanted to be. We did have a white man who was, uh, who had been a teacher for a while. And he came to-to, uh, Harrison.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So you said it made you—helped you make a decision about taking your children out?

Interviewee                  Yeah. Because I looked—look, we were at the—in the, um, 60s, we came up starting—come up with a shortage of teachers.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        And they began to go out—go around 10 people out to find teachers. And we were getting teachers in I did not think were—they didn’t come from the kind of school I came from.

Oloye Adeyemon:        In what way?

Barbara Dodson:        In that I don't think they were as well prepared as we were.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Were they as dedicated?

Barbara Dodson:        I don't know about dedication. But I don't think that some of their knowledges were as—their teaching experiences were as good as those people who have been prepared here in the District of Columbia.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. So you chose to take your children and put them—

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. I put them in Parochial school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Parochial school.

Barbara Dodson:        Some of the—let’s see. Susan I guess, uh, the only child who went to—

Oloye Adeyemon:        How many children did you have?

Barbara Dodson:        Four.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        Two of them—let me see—no. The boy—when did he start? He started—all of my children went to Parochial school the whole time.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. So looking back at it, given the fact that the schools remain segregated, what would you say about, you know, what was the impact of-of Brown v. Board on the schools here, here in Washington D.C.?

Barbara Dodson:        Basically, I don't think anything. Because we still had the neighborhood schools. We still have the neighborhood schools. We still have, uh, impact. Now, the only thing you can do now is—that the created middle schools. And I think middle school was a white man’s answer to not paying for their children to go to private schools. Because middle schools take care of seventh, eighth, and ninth grades. I told somebody that. I told some white people that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Why would they—why would they not have, um—why would they need to do that in order to avoid Parochial school?

Barbara Dodson:        They—you see, I’m talking about private school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Why? Why would they have to do that? Because—

Barbara Dodson:        Because you don’t pay anything to go to public schools. There’s no fee.

Oloye Adeyemon:        But why middle school?

Barbara Dodson:        Because they’re after the—because, see, middle school is also another answer for junior high school, so they saw what was happening in junior high schools and didn’t want their children to—

Oloye Adeyemon:        Oh, you’re talking about the—you’re talking about the discipline problems and that.

Barbara Dodson:        Discipline and curriculum, and things of that sort.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I got you. I got you. It’s a difficult period.

Barbara Dodson:        So yeah, difficult period.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I see.

Barbara Dodson:        So they decided, then we started having middle schools. I said, “Middle schools”.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I understand.

Barbara Dodson:        And we still—but we still had junior high school where black children went.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I understand.

Barbara Dodson:        But I-I told—I had a friend who put their children in a middle school.

Oloye Adeyemon:        So middle school is different than the junior high school?

Barbara Dodson:        Oh yes. They had a little different curriculum, and you had parents support. And you had parents putting money in.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Were the grades different?

Barbara Dodson:        No. the grades were the same.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I understand.

Barbara Dodson:        But see, you still had junior high school but you still got middle schools.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I understand. What, um—

Barbara Dodson:        And they were in the—they were only in a couple of neighborhoods, like Capitol Hill.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. At what point did you, um—you’re-you’re-you’re now the President of the African American Historical and Geological Society. By chance, how many chapters around the country?

Barbara Dodson:        Twenty.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And also there’s chapters in—outside the country, right?

Barbara Dodson:        Not really. Not yet. We’re working on it.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Oh, there was one in the West Indies being put up?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. They were talking about it. They were talking about that.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And what year was that founded?

Barbara Dodson:        1977.

Oloye Adeyemon:        By your husband?

Barbara Dodson:        And some other people.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson:        And some other people.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Uh-huh. He was one of the founders?

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And uh, he worked for a long time at the Archives?

Barbara Dodson:        National Archives.

Oloye Adeyemon:        And he’s considered by many to be the father of African American genealogy.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah. Because of his knowledge he had been recognized.

Oloye Adeyemon:        One of my mentors. My-my main mentor.

Barbara Dodson:        Yeah, you and 9 million other people. I haven’t finished grieving because you all—everybody says that. You all—so that be—everybody comes up. I don’t care where I go; somebody will come up and say, “Your husband helped me”. How did he help you?

Oloye Adeyemon:        Well, I’d like to thank you for this interview.

Barbara Dodson:        I don't think you learned too much.

Oloye Adeyemon:        I think I learned a lot.

Barbara Dodson:        I don't think you did.

Oloye Adeyemon:        Mm-hmm. I think I did.

Barbara Dodson:        You just saying that to be nice.

Oloye Adeyemon:        No I’m not. I know. You’re from DC—

[End of Audio]

Duration:

48 minutes, 18 seconds

Walker goes into detail about her families experience in the Maryland/Washington D.C. area and how they overcame their struggles using education. She later explains what she and her family went through over the course of the Bolling v. Sharpe Case.

Brown v. Board of Education NHP Oral History

Download a copy (114 kb)

Oral History Interview with Barbara Dodson

Oloye Adeyemon: Brown v. Board, Oral History Collection, Washington D.C. School Segregation-Desegregation Interviews. Interviewee, Mrs. Barbara Walker. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon, for the National Park Service. Interview conducted on July 21st, 2001, in the home of Mrs. Walker in Washington D.C. These interviews are made possible through Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project, funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001.

As part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic site Oral History Project. Mrs. Walker, what is your full name?

Barbara Dodson: Barbara Anne Dodson Walker.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthdate?

Barbara Dodson: January 18th, 1930.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born?

Barbara Dodson: Washington D.C.

Oloye Adeyemon: And who were your parents?

Barbara Dodson: Our father is Joseph Nolan Dodson. We came up [unintelligible 01:13] doctor here in Washington who went through public schools here and went to Howard University in undergraduate and graduate school. My mother is—was—her name was Naomi Althea Neil. And married a Dodson. But everybody knew her by Althea. Um, she’s-she went to public school. She went—she went, uh, to public schools through what was then by the normal school. When I went to it, it was Teachers’ College.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And did you have brothers and sisters?

Barbara Dodson: I had a sister. Have—I had one sister who is two years younger than I am and one sister who is 19 years younger. The sisters 19-years younger than I, uh, we went to public school except for the, uh, Catholic School. We went to seventh, eighth, and ninth grade. Then we went to public school. [Unintelligible 02:14].

Oloye Adeyemon: Both. What were your sisters’ names?

Barbara Dodson: My sisters—the sister next to me is Jean Marie Dodson Jackson. And she married the boy next door, really.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Laugh] And-and your younger sister? Barbara Dodson: My youngest sister is Joanne Dodson Birch.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what—I think I understood you to say your father was a medical doctor?

Barbara Dodson: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, um, when he became a medical doctor, um, were there many medical—black medical doctors in Washington D.C.?

Barbara Dodson: I don’t guess so. Uh, at that time, we’re talking about the turn—uh, the 1930s. Early 1930s. I guess I knew a lot of them, because that was—that was a group of people that my father associated with were his classmates, they were his contemporaries. So those are the people. Those were people that I knew.

Oloye Adeyemon: Where did your father graduate?

Barbara Dodson: From Howard.

Oloye Adeyemon: He did go to Howard?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. He went to Howard as an undergraduate student and Howard as a grad in-in medical school.

Oloye Adeyemon: And he was from D.C. himself?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. Yeah. We can go back to 1832 there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was there something about the work that his parents did that led him to become a doctor?

Barbara Dodson: Not that I know of. Um, my-my grandmother Alwate was a wash lady.

Oloye Adeyemon: His mother?

Barbara Dodson: His mother was a wash lady.

Oloye Adeyemon: And his father?

Barbara Dodson: And his father, as my grandmother said, that he worked on the waterfront down in Georgetown, and that he spoke Hebrew very well. So that he could go to the store and bargain for his groceries and things like that all because he spoke Hebrew. I had no idea what he did. And just beginning to ramble out the different Josephs, A and Joseph B. I find in the different records.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Of the-of the Dodson’s?

Barbara Dodson: Uh-huh. I think one is his—one was Josephs—one was a father and one was a son.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And so he, um, was not—his parents did not, um, you know—

Barbara Dodson: No. My grandma’s education—no my grandmother’s education stopped when she was in third grade. And if you look up—think about education in the third grade, and my grandmother said she remembered the, uh, soldiers coming up the road for the civil war. We figure that if she remembers that we talk about it. She might have been about three or four at that time. And that—no, she didn’t have—not—neither she nor her sisters were educated.

Oloye Adeyemon: And was she born free?

Barbara Dodson: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Here in Washington.

Barbara Dodson: Here—not Washington, but in Montgomery County.

Oloye Adeyemon: Maryland?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And was your father’s father from D.C.?

Barbara Dodson: They were free. Identified they were free. They were free. I found that in the records at Holy Trinity Church; they were free.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were they here in D.C.?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. They lived in Georgetown.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, wha-with your mother’s people—was she—

Barbara Dodson: With my mother’s people.

Oloye Adeyemon: -was a-was a housewife?

Barbara Dodson: No. No. My mother’s people—my, uh, grandfather, uh, came to Washington to work. He-he was a lawyer. He had gone to North Carolina A and T. And I found him.

Oloye Adeyemon: This is your grandfather?

Barbara Dodson: My-my mother’s father. He’d gone to North Carolina A and T. He came from a family where his mother was a, uh, was a child of the master and she was educated. She did, uh, she taught school in North Carolina in the Winston/Salem era—area.

Oloye Adeyemon: His mother, your great grandmother?

Barbara Dodson: My great grandmother. And she—

Oloye Adeyemon: What year would she have been teaching?

Barbara Dodson: [Sigh] Well, papa finished in 18—we’re talking about early 1800s. I find—I don't know when Lina was born. I do know—I did find out 1820 will for a Low. And I find, uh, Lina’s mother, sister and brother mentioned in that will.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So he would’ve gone to law school after being of slavery, though?

Barbara Dodson: Oh yeah. Yeah. He fit—because papa—

Oloye Adeyemon: And she was teaching during that?

Barbara Dodson: Then the-no-pap-yeah. She-she went because her husband left her and went north. He worked in –uh, my grand—my great grandfather left Lina and went north to—he worked in the coalmines in West Virginia for a while, but he moved on to Detroit. And so—and all I-I can find—that he was a tobacco appraiser in North Carolina. I don’t have any idea what an appraiser was, but—

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, back to your grandfather on your mother’s side. He became a lawyer.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: And he came to D.C. to practice law?

Barbara Dodson: I guess so. Yeah. He was here. He-he—I find him here in the 1900 census. He lived—

Oloye Adeyemon: He was already practicing at that time?

Barbara Dodson: No. He was a young man. I don't know that he had started practicing.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Now, what about his wife? What did she do?

Barbara Dodson: My grandmother—I-I find—as the more I talk to my aunt, the more I find out about her; she did, uh, she cooked. She cooked. She would go up to Howard. She would have special events. They would ask her to come up and help cook. She worked in the recreation department where she taught crafts and things that I saw. Uh.

Oloye Adeyemon: When-when was she doing that?

Barbara Dodson: She—grandma did that I guess until the early 30s.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: And then she went on, and the end of—up until the—after she did the recreation department, then she started—she was second cook at Madeira School out in Virginia.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. What did-what did your mother do?

Barbara Dodson: My mother taught school. She-she finished, uh, minor when it was a normal school. When it was two years. And her field was home economics. And uh, she went south to teach. And I-I don’t know the history about what happened, why they didn’t need all of these home economic teachers. I don't know if around the—and she finished about—uh—she finished in 1928.

I don’t—or-or maybe about—a little earlier when she finished minor. Because they didn’t need—I don't know if they changed their curriculum so that every school didn’t have a home economics teacher or not. But she went south to teach. But she didn’t though. The principal was kind of fresh there, so she just caught the boat and came home. They were looking for her.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Where was this at?

Barbara Dodson: This was—she says she caught the oyster boat and came up the Bay. The principal was looking for her. She had—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where was—where was the school?

Barbara Dodson: I don’t really know.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. Where was it near?

Barbara Dodson: I know—I do know she went to Goldsborough, and she went to Greensborough in North Carolina.

Oloye Adeyemon: In North Carolina?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah, to teach.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh okay.

Barbara Dodson: I know she did. Because I remember talking about things they did down there.

Oloye Adeyemon: This was before she got married?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: So wha—

Barbara Dodson: Then she came back here, and she taught at Parker Gray School in Alexandria for a very short time. Because that was a Home Economics program. But then she changed over and she taught at Niles Crouch School, which was an elementary school where she taught first and second grade.

Oloye Adeyemon: And that was in Washington?

Barbara Dodson: That was in—no. That was in Alexandria, Virginia.

Oloye Adeyemon: That was in Alexandria also, as well.

Barbara Dodson: And uh, then when that—when she stopped that, then she began to substitute in the public schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: Here in Washington?

Barbara Dodson: Here in Washington.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Okay. So, did she continue after you? After she got married and had a—had a family?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: She continued to substitute?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah, she continued to substitute. And then later, after a while, she went to teach at a private nursery school. Uh, Mrs. Howards Nursery School.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that at [unintelligible 10:50] Americas?

Barbara Dodson: Huh? Yeah. This was a—this is a, um, a woman who started a nursery school and had it for many years. Uh.

Oloye Adeyemon: When would she have started it?

Barbara Dodson: She—well, that I don't know. Um. I know—I know when—in the 40s; she was—she’d stopped I guess about, let’s see—Joy was born in 49, so she stopped about in the 50s. And that nursery school was about—it was very old.

Oloye Adeyemon: At that time.

Barbara Dodson: At that time. This was a school. And she lived where this nursery school was. There was an area where there were judges, doctors, lawyers and teachers all live in that neighborhood.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was that?

Barbara Dodson: On S Street, uh, and-and, um—just above Dupont Circle.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Barbara Dodson: There were—blacks live there. A record of Deans live there. They all lived between R and S Street, between New Hampshire Avenue and, I would say, 18 Street.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. When you were coming through the schools, uh, they were strictly segregated at that time?

Barbara Dodson: Oh yeah. All the schools were very strictly segregated. It was so segregated that I had—in the corner from me, and I lived at 27th and P Street, and then, uh—there was a little girl, Barbara, who lived in the—uh, over a grocery store. She was white. She had to pass Philips. She—Philips School and walk another block to get to-get to Corprin School. So she had to go a block further than I did to get to school, because the schools were segregated.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What year did you start school?

Barbara Dodson: Thirty-five.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And what—where did you live at the time you started school?

Barbara Dodson: I lived 20—2443 P Street North West.

Oloye Adeyemon: Which we would put in there 24th Street?

Barbara Dodson: No. Uh-huh. I-I lived on this side of the bridge. Georgetown begins on the west side of the creek.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. What creek was that?

Barbara Dodson: Rock Creek Park. Rock Creek.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, were you in Georgetown?

Barbara Dodson: I was in Georgetown.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. There weren’t that many black in Georgetown at the time, hey?

Barbara Dodson: Oh yeah, there were blacks there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Barbara Dodson: Blacks lived in Georgetown. And as I look at—as I get older and look at where people live, blacks lived around a-a section. We-we bordered—we—it was like little ants go into the house and they come out. And that’s what a lot of blacks did. A lot of blacks did—were the domestics—they were, uh—the beginning—our-our grandparents were—a lot of them were domestics that worked in-in the homes. And they would go in and come out.

White people lived, basically, from 28th Street to 35th Street. From our street down to, uh, um, N Street, Olive Avenue, a little further south. And the black people went in. And if you go to Georgetown, make—take somebody with you. They could show you the houses. Because the houses that blacks lived in were big—were two rooms up and two rooms down. That was it.

Oloye Adeyemon: And they were close to the houses where they worked?

Barbara Dodson: Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. Now, my grandmother worked for a Dr. Reedy who sa—who was a doctor, and his son became a physician. His son was head of the Veteran’s Hospital. Now my grandmother was a wash lady for-for him. And my grandmother, uh, I would—I would walk up from 2443 P Street up to Dr. Reedy’s house.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: And we would walk up there with her and she’d say, “All right. See you later”. Then she put us on the square. And my sister didn’t go. I did.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Now, let me—let me make sure I’m clear. Uh, this is not the area where most blacks lived at the time?

Barbara Dodson: Yes it is.

Oloye Adeyemon: Because they were there. Was there also—where was Dunbar and Armstrong?

Barbara Dodson: Dunbar—Dunbar and Armstrong are—are not in that neighborhood at all. Dunbar and Armstrong are in—I forget what—I don't know what they call it, Samson Town?

Oloye Adeyemon: So that was at—

Barbara Dodson: They had—at First Street, it had always been there.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, this was a different African American community?

Barbara Dodson: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: From that, actually.

Barbara Dodson: Yes, this was a different African American community. In fact, my father went to Dunbar and he wo-he-he rode a bicycle to get there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: To get from 36th Street to First Street. He would ride a bicycle. Because he said when he found out his father died, he came home on the, uh—he-he came home through the snow on his bicycle to get home. And uh, a lot of those two people walked to school from up there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: We only had—up in-in Georgetown. We had two elementary schools. That was it.

Oloye Adeyemon: For African Americans?

Barbara Dodson: For African Americans.

Oloye Adeyemon: We had Philips, which was named for Wendell Philips. And we had Wormley, that was named for a black man, Wormley. Who was—you heard about Wormley in the last election where they held a meeting there to decide about the elections and things. Uh, James Wormley that, um, that was him. That’s-that’s who that school is named for. The Washington schools—

Oloye Adeyemon: Wormley was involved in what election? What were you saying about him?

Barbara Dodson: Again, I don’t know which election it was. But it was one of those back in the early 1800s.

Oloye Adeyemon: And he was an African American?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: He was a legislator?

Barbara Dodson: No. He was a—I will look in one of those books. He was a—he had a hotel at 15th and 8th Street Northwest.

Oloye Adeyemon: How was he involved with the electoral process?

Barbara Dodson: His hotel was made available for them to use it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh okay. Okay.

Barbara Dodson: I think that’s it. If not, I got some stuff upstairs I can share with you.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So—

Barbara Dodson: So we had two elementary schools—two elementary schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: Two elementary schools, no junior highs?

Barbara Dodson: No. To go to junior high school you had to—and there was no way to get there but to walk. You could—even though school tickets cost three cents, and it cost you six cents a day. That was a lot of money for-for people—and the children walked from 36th Street, across the bridge to Francis Junior High School.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Now that would mean, then, that um—what was it—the case that Georgetown did not have a high school because the-the African American community was a smaller community than the other one.

Barbara Dodson: oh yeah. Yeah. We were set—the-the high—the elementary schools service a community. Um, we didn’t have—and there really weren’t enough black children in the—

Oloye Adeyemon: I see, in that Georgetown area?

Barbara Dodson: In that—in the Georgetown area to support-to support a Junior High School.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. With the, um—when you entered elementary school, uh, what was the name of your elementary school for me?

Barbara Dodson: I went-I went to—I went to Wormley, because my father didn’t like the kindergarten teacher. He was hitting people. Hitting—

Oloye Adeyemon: At, um—

Barbara Dodson: At Philips.

Oloye Adeyemon: At Philips.

Barbara Dodson: So I went to Wormley School first and then I went to-to Philips School.

Oloye Adeyemon: And where was that school located?

Barbara Dodson: Wormley is at 35th and Prospect, which is further. Which was further from my home. Then Philips is at 27 then N.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 18:51]

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Is that school still standing?

Barbara Dodson: Both-both of those schools are on the historic list. Um, Philips School—uh, Wormley School, I don’t—it was an administration school, and it was a school for, um, Americanization way over there. I don't know who they were. Who-who, uh—who came there. But that’s what that—that’s what it was, an Americanization school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: Philips School has now been sold. And they—

Oloye Adeyemon: What do you mean when you say Americanization school?

Barbara Dodson: A school for foreign—for—uh, for—um, assisting—

Oloye Adeyemon: Back then it was?

Barbara Dodson: No. Uh-huh. No. This is recent.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, okay.

Barbara Dodson: And I don't know what it is right now.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Uh, but Wormley is still attended by students?

Barbara Dodson: No.

Oloye Adeyemon: No.

Barbara Dodson: No we’re—there—there are no children I don't think. There’s not enough children in that area to support a school. Uh, that school is night school.

Oloye Adeyemon: What happened to it?

Barbara Dodson: Well, in, uh—in the 1950s, when Truman came in, Georgetown became the place—“the place to live”. And, consequently, what happened is that, uh, blacks did not own their homes. A lot of blacks were renting. And they came in and condemned the homes, renovated them so that a lot of them had electricity and gas and running water. Because a lot of – a lot of those places didn’t have those things.

Oloye Adeyemon: Earlier on.

Barbara Dodson: Early on. I’m talking about in—yeah, in early on. And so when they did that, the-the blacks were moved out.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what—and so there was not a need for a black school?

Barbara Dodson: No. And population dwindled and dwindled. And then when—as-as we get further into the—uh—in-into the area, until later years when we had desegregation, then those children went to, uh, Jackson School. Which is up on our street.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

Barbara Dodson: And they had to walk up there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What was the elementary school education like that you received?

Barbara Dodson: Well, I tell you it was a lot—it-it was good as far as I can remember. My father-my father had the idea that they were just passing us because he was the school physician.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: So he decided then I’m taking you out of there. That’s why we went to Parochial School for the seventh, eighth and ninth.

Oloye Adeyemon: All three of—all three of these?

Barbara Dodson: No. No. Just—well, to—yeah. I—my sister and I went. And then, later, my younger sister went for a whole different reason. Because her—her reason was—

Oloye Adeyemon: Let me come back to that.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Because she’s so much younger than you.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Um, so you went to private school for your high school years?


Barbara Dodson: No. Just for seventh, eighth and ninth grade.

Oloye Adeyemon: Then you went back to public school?

Barbara Dodson: You had to. Because there was no Catholic schools for black ch—no high school in Washington D.C. for blacks in high school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So there was a segregated Catholic junior high but no Catholic high school?

Barbara Dodson: No Catholic high school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So when you went back into the public school—

Barbara Dodson: I went to Dunbar.

Oloye Adeyemon: What did you—did you see a difference between the elementary education, public and then the junior high and then the public high school?

Barbara Dodson: How did I know? I went—I was sent to school. But I wasn’t there to question.

Oloye Adeyemon: But I just mean in terms of the—in terms of the teachers and the—and the—and the studies?

Barbara Dodson: Oh, not at that time.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were they more difficult? Or the same?

Barbara Dodson: Not at that time. Not at that time. You know, I talk—I’m talk—I went to-I went to, uh, to high school at a time when my teachers were people who had been away to school. Who had—some of them had Ph.Ds. teaching in high school. So, we had people who were—uh, who came with a purpose. Their purpose was to help you learn and to help you move ahead. Now, people that—

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that the case where it was the private school or the public school? The Catholic school board or—

Barbara Dodson: Well the Cath—you know, I don't think you can compare those. The Catholic school had one seventh grade, one eighth grade and one ninth grade. That was it. And you got your lessons, and that was it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did nuns teach, or?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. No. Oh yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: So they were whites teaching?

Barbara Dodson: No. these were black nuns.

Oloye Adeyemon: Black nuns?

Barbara Dodson: These were the Oblates Sisters of Providence.

Oloye Adeyemon: What are they called?

Barbara Dodson: Oblates Sisters of Providence.

Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell that?

Barbara Dodson: O-B-L-A-T-E-S of Providence.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Barbara Dodson: And their motherhouse is there still. They don’t have many, but their motherhouse is over in Baltimore on Gone Road.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, in all of that education, you found that the teachers were well qualified and dedicated?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. I think that I came—I came along at a time when, um, black teachers, uh, in-in the high school, they had—um, I had Dr. Nixon. He was a biology teacher. Dr. Russel. These were high school teachers with Ph.Ds. And they-they didn’t have factories where you got them. These were people who did it. And I’m talking—I’m talking about in the 40s.

I finished high school in 47, so we’re talking about people who have been to college, and these were people who had degrees. And when I went to—when I went to teachers’ college, I found the same thing. And when we had—when the integration came, and we looked at the teachers’ colleges, Wilson Teachers’ College and Minor Teachers’ College, they found that the teachers at Minor had Ph.Ds.’ teaching, and the teachers at Wilson had certificates.

Oloye Adeyemon: White teachers?

Barbara Dodson: White teachers. Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: So white teachers were teaching with a certificate which you could get in less than two years?

Barbara Dodson: Evidently. I don't know what the grounds were for-for getting it. But we-um, um, most of our teachers had Ph.Ds.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Um, is it the case that, um, you had teachers with Ph.Ds. teaching in your schools sometimes, because they were not able to do other kinds of work that Ph—or the kind of work that a Ph.D. might have qualified them for?

Barbara Dodson: We’re talking about a time when blacks were just beginning to get somewhere. We’d be just beginning—there were jobs—there weren’t the kinds of company jobs that we have now. All these—you don’t have those kinds of places that did it. I think, uh, you know, a guy in my class came out, and he got a job with, uh, uh, by one of these companies. And we were really amazed.

He was—his—from the Teachers’ College he got-he got a job that he was able to, uh, go to a 500 company. But, uh, a lot of times those jobs we just didn’t have. You were a doctor, you were a lawyer, or you were a teacher. That was your job.

Here, in Washington, the other alternatives were—there—there—you worked at the, uh, Bureau of Printing. You worked at the—g—uh, government printing office, or the men worked at the Navy yard. Or-or you—don’t—I don’t hear women working at the Navy yard. I always hear of men working at the Navy yard. I don't know what they did. But that’s where they worked.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: Those were the jobs that were available. And even years before, when we had men who finished law school; a lot them did—a lot of them worked like waiters, and things of that sort. There was just nobody to hire them.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So was there anything that happened during your elementary school years that you think shaped your later choices, in terms of career, in terms of education?

Barbara Dodson: I think the teachers I had. The teachers I had were strong teachers, I think. Um, I have—uh, I had teachers who-who were there to teach us. People who were dedicated to what was going on. And, uh, I work—I worked with a teacher who did not teach me but taught in the building where I was.

And she said Georgetown was just different from teaching anywhere else. That she felt that in Georgetown she had more support from parents. And I think when teachers know you got support from parents, and parents are looking at what’s going on and participating, I think they’re—they just do their best.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: And we had a strong principal.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, when you went into the Catholic school and then onto high school, had you already decided you were going to be a schoolteacher?

Barbara Dodson: I don't know what I wanted to be. I don’t—I don’t—I don't know. I guess I had. Because we played school all the time. Like, line the doll babies up on the truck and teach them. And that’s how I learned the—how the, uh, tenses of verbs, and things of that sort. We’d do those. We’d have, uh, schoolbooks that we’d get to do those kinds of things. But maybe that’s when I decided. I just don’t remember that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did your mother want you to become a schoolteacher?

Barbara Dodson: She didn’t say no.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: My fa—my sister wanted to be a physician. And my father said no. He said it’s too hard for women. And, um, we’re talking about the early 40s. And he said it was too hard for her.

Oloye Adeyemon: What did she choose instead, to do?

Barbara Dodson: She-she went to work at, uh, the state department as—and I will say a liaison person there with, um, uh, countries. Because she-she serviced the diplomatic core.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And what about your other sister? Do you know?

Barbara Dodson: My other sister’s a teacher.

Oloye Adeyemon: That’s the younger one?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. The other younger one teaches school, too.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. So, when you graduated from high school, where did you go to?

Barbara Dodson: I went to Minor.

Oloye Adeyemon: You said—

Barbara Dodson: Minor Teachers’ College.

Oloye Adeyemon: Minor once had been a normal school.

Barbara Dodson: Normal school. Now it as a Teachers’ College. And it was four—changed to four years. I don't know when that happened. But I know that’s—that it did happen. Uh, it was a four-year school. And, uh, I didn’t und—didn’t fully understand about the importance of what they did. But they give a—they give you a Bachelor of Science degree. Which means that—versus a Bachelor of Arts, you do more reading and writing.

And we did. We did do reading and research and papers and things of that sort that we had to do. Uh.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. We had more science. It was—

Barbara Dodson: We had the sci—I guess you mean the science of teaching.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Barbara Dodson: -and that kind of thing. Because we did do that.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see. So, when you graduated from there you went to work immediately as a schoolteacher?

Barbara Dodson: I sure did.

Oloye Adeyemon: Where?

Barbara Dodson: I taught at Garrison, William Lord Garrison Elementary School.

Oloye Adeyemon: Where was Minor located?

Barbara Dodson: Minor was and still is on Georgia Avenue, right across the street from Howard University in Georgia.

Oloye Adeyemon: And you went to what school when you graduated?

Barbara Dodson: Garrison.

Oloye Adeyemon: Where is that?

Barbara Dodson: It’s—now, it’s, uh—I think it sits on, um, Aura Street. But when I taught, it was on 12th Street. But they closed 12th Street and filled it in with—closed in that hole. Locked the playground. And also, now, the school there goes from Vermont Avenue over to 13th Street. But it once—when it—the initial school, the original school opening was on 12th Street between Aura now.

Oloye Adeyemon: So they tore it down and enlarged the area?

Barbara Dodson: And made—yeah. Made it a modern school there.

Oloye Adeyemon: It’s still got—still has the same name?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: Still the same name.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what grade did you teach?

Barbara Dodson: First grade.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And how long did you teach?

Barbara Dodson: Thirty years.

Oloye Adeyemon: At that one school?

Barbara Dodson: No. No. No.

Oloye Adeyemon: Where did you go from there?

Barbara Dodson: After-after I had a baby, I went to a different school for each baby. [Laugh]. Except the first time. I went out there with one baby and had two. So I taught—I taught at-at, um, I taught at, um, Garrison. And then I went out and had my son and a daughter. And then I went back. I went to Sumner School. Charles Sumner School. Which is no longer a school but a, um—

Oloye Adeyemon: A museum.

Barbara Dodson: Museum and archives.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And Sumner was one of the oldest of all the African American schools there.

Barbara Dodson: It-it is the oldest one. That one was built with, um, uh, they had to pass two laws there. When the school was initially to be built, they were going to collect taxes from the-from the free people. But we’re talking about right after the civil war. So there wasn’t enough money to support that. So then they had to pass two laws to get that—that, uh, school established. That school building was about to be torn down, um—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 32:49].

Barbara Dodson: No. After I left there, they rented it to a private school. And the—because there were no children in that area, they-they rebuilt—they tore down a lot of the houses, and people moved there.

Oloye Adeyemon: For the African American families?

Barbara Dodson: But wa—yeah. And uh, they, uh, put in a—a lot of apartments. And apartments for single people. And I taught there, uh, 56 to 58.

Oloye Adeyemon: So it was almost 100 years when—old—90 years old when you taught there.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. When I got there. And-but, uh—but over the time when they had nobody in it, the roof had holes in it. And they were about to tear it down. And they um, they got it saved and restored and renovated. There was—they did a lot of renovations, believe me. A lot of reno-renovations from the time I was there teaching.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So you were at—what school again, at first?

Barbara Dodson: I was at Garrison.

Oloye Adeyemon: Junior high. I mean, elementary.

Barbara Dodson: Elementary. Then I went to, uh, Sumner.

Oloye Adeyemon: Sumner Elementary.

Barbara Dodson: Sumner as an elementary school. And that school, uh—Sumner School has served every grade from pre-school through college. Because Matilda Minor met there and held classes in Sumner School there—

Oloye Adeyemon: Minor Teachers’ College you started off with?

Barbara Dodson: Was-was-was—it was—had been in that building also.

Oloye Adeyemon: That was when it was a normal school?

Barbara Dodson: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So—

Barbara Dodson: Then from there, I went to Scott Montgomery School at, um, New Jersey Avenue and, um, First Street.

Oloye Adeyemon: And that’s where you retired from?

Barbara Dodson: No. I’d been to more schools than that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: And then after that, I went to—uh, after that I had a baby. I went to, um, uh, Harrison School, which is now a private school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: Uh, that’s one of the charter schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: And then from there I went to—I went to Eugene Clark school for a hot month.

Oloye Adeyemon: Which-which one is that?

Barbara Dodson: It’s up-it’s up here, 7th and Wesley Street.

Oloye Adeyemon: Private school.

Barbara Dodson: No. Uh-huh.

Oloye Adeyemon: What’s the name of it?

Barbara Dodson: Eugene Clark.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Barbara Dodson: He had been—he had been the President of the Teachers’ College. That’s the 7th and Wesley. But then, uh, because I was working in a special program, working on my master’s degree, I went to J—J. L. Wilson at 8th and K.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.

Barbara Dodson: Fifth and K, I mean.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that the last school?

Barbara Dodson: No. Then I went to [Laugh]—then I went to Raw school, and I was there for about two years. And then I left there. And I went to, uh, Ruth Webb School out on Galley there. Out on the Nell Arby Road, Northeast.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Oh that—

Barbara Dodson: That was it.

Oloye Adeyemon: That was it.

Barbara Dodson: [Laugh] That was it. That was it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Quite a career.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now—

Barbara Dodson: All in the-in the city though. All but one school, Eugene. Where Eugene Clark was not on the—in the—in the city.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, you started teaching in 49?

Barbara Dodson: No. No, I started teaching 1951.

Oloye Adeyemon: Fifty-one. And at what point were the schools integrated, or desegregated, I mean?

Barbara Dodson: Desegregated; about 52. I answered the telephone and got-and got the Brown v. Board of Education.

Oloye Adeyemon: It was before—it was before 54?

Barbara Dodson: Well I started in 51. I don't know was it 54?

Oloye Adeyemon: That’s then the Brown—

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: -decision was.

Barbara Dodson: Okay. Yeah. Because yeah. Because that’s when I-I-I—that’s when I le—I left that June. Yeah. I answered the telephone. The telephone was ringing and ringing. And the principal’s office was in the middle, and we were having lunch. And the phone would ring. And I ran, went and answered the phone, and they said that that had been passed, The Brown v. Board of Education.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So each school was notified?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now, the schools were—were they immediately integrated or desegregated at that point?

Barbara Dodson: Probably in the fall.

Oloye Adeyemon: In the fall.

Barbara Dodson: Probably in the fall. And people were waiting, you know. So much had happened. So much. So many things were happening with integration. Remember, the Catholic schools integrated the year before the public schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did they—was that a year before public schools but still after Brown? Or was it before Brown?

Barbara Dodson: This was before Brown. The Catholic schools were before Brown.

Oloye Adeyemon: So now, black students could go to the high school?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: But you, uh—you know, as—you know what separates everything is the money. The cost of it.

Oloye Adeyemon: I know.

Barbara Dodson: Uh, they, uh—they, uh—everybody was, uh, kind of on pins and needles wanting to know what was going to happen, because the schools were going to be integrated. But the neighborhoods were there to serve the schools. And children went to the school in their community. So even though you had desegregation, what was happening you went to the school in your community. So you’re—

Oloye Adeyemon: So this is—after the [crosstalk 00:38:10] you were still in—

Barbara Dodson: You’re still in a black school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: Now, my sis—my, uh, my, uh, sister was in a situation. And well she’ll tell you about her situation, where she had gone because she came in after that thing. Where she went to a, uh—she was in a different situation. But our communities were so—see Georgetown community is different from other communities because there were few black people there. They had moved them out. Out of there.

But most of the time, black communities had blacks—had most of their children were black. It’s still the same thing. The—most of the children are black in the black school. And the white schools, they still. That the problem was they said they had to integrate. So what did they do, they began to, um—how are we going to integrate the faculties.

And then began—you had to go to the interview for the job there, in the district of Columbia. I never got an interview. I protested one time about go—being transferred to another school and I was told, “Oh, Ms. Walker, I know you will do your best wherever you go”. And I was sent to the school that I—that they put the name on. And that was the end of it. But when they went-went—these teachers were handpicked to go over there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: And, you know, there’s one you should ta—he’s a prin—the woman was a principal. I mean if you’re interested in that part of the integration. Betty Brooks, who was in—who was a black principal in Georgetown. And in Western Park. Because that’s where—that’s where most of the white people lived. Now, on Capitol Hill, you had, um, a couple of schools.

But they handpicked the principals and the teachers. I-I just get the—I just think they—uh—they-they pick. The people had to put in their application. Well, you had to put in an application anyhow.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, what was the pr—what was the proce—what was the criteria? I mean, what were—what were they trying to achieve?

Barbara Dodson: I don't know what. Well, trying to achieve integration. But, you know, the black—the white people didn’t want a teacher who was not up to snuff. That they—they did agree with. It’s like now, you know, you—they-they make out applications and you go in for an interview. And if they don’t particularly—your philosophy isn’t—doesn’t fit in with their philosophy, that could be so they might not hire you.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: So that could happen to you.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

Barbara Dodson: It could still happen to you.

Oloye Adeyemon: Sure.

Barbara Dodson: Because they still do. They still do interviews for, uh, uh, schools. I heard they did one the other day, and, uh, the, uh, the black person came in, and they came in like she was ready to go. And presented a plan. And when it call came down, it came down to a racial matter.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: Whites for the white teachers, or white kids. And blacks were for the blacks. So it’s still there, because nothing has changed.

Oloye Adeyemon: So how-how much change did you see in—when you were teaching? You know, you were teaching before this decision. You were teaching immediately afterwards. And continued to teach, you know, for—into the 70s.

Barbara Dodson: Into the 80s.

Oloye Adeyemon: Into the 80s.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: During that time, you started off teaching black children.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: When you came out of the system, what percentage of your students were black?

Barbara Dodson: A hundred.

Oloye Adeyemon: So when you started they were 100 percent black. And 30 years later they were still 100 percent?

Barbara Dodson: Because I taught in black—I-I taught in the inner city, where the inner city is black. Now, you have one—I had—uh, I had one Chinese child in Sumner. I had one at, um, at Harrison. But no—but no white. Let’s see. I did have a little white girl. And we were wondering why she was there.

Oloye Adeyemon: So what do you think the impact of that period was? Okay, the students did not—the students’ ratio did not change, uh, but the teacher ratio changed. There were—there became more white teachers in the system, didn’t it?

Interviewee Not in the black schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: Not in the black schools.

Barbara Dodson: I don’t—I know we—we had at—

Oloye Adeyemon: So there was segregation in terms of students and teachers?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. We had—let me see. I think the first black—white teacher came in the 60s. We had a white—white girl. Um, I can’t even remember her name now. She taught kindergarten. Uh, had a white girl that taught kindergarten. And we got a white guy who was—they were—and this is—this is what made me make some decisions about my own children. Who—they needed a warm body.

And he was. He-he had—his field was political science. But—and-and he took—you took an education course, you know, to fill out your time. And he—but he—he said he wanted to be a lobbyist. That’s what he wanted to be. We did have a white man who was, uh, who had been a teacher for a while. And he came to-to, uh, Harrison.

Oloye Adeyemon: So you said it made you—helped you make a decision about taking your children out?

Interviewee Yeah. Because I looked—look, we were at the—in the, um, 60s, we came up starting—come up with a shortage of teachers. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: And they began to go out—go around 10 people out to find teachers. And we were getting teachers in I did not think were—they didn’t come from the kind of school I came from.

Oloye Adeyemon: In what way?

Barbara Dodson: In that I don't think they were as well prepared as we were.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were they as dedicated?

Barbara Dodson: I don't know about dedication. But I don't think that some of their knowledges were as—their teaching experiences were as good as those people who have been prepared here in the District of Columbia.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So you chose to take your children and put them—

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. I put them in Parochial school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Parochial school.

Barbara Dodson: Some of the—let’s see. Susan I guess, uh, the only child who went to—

Oloye Adeyemon: How many children did you have?

Barbara Dodson: Four.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: Two of them—let me see—no. The boy—when did he start? He started—all of my children went to Parochial school the whole time.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So looking back at it, given the fact that the schools remain segregated, what would you say about, you know, what was the impact of-of Brown v. Board on the schools here, here in Washington D.C.?

Barbara Dodson: Basically, I don't think anything. Because we still had the neighborhood schools. We still have the neighborhood schools. We still have, uh, impact. Now, the only thing you can do now is—that the created middle schools. And I think middle school was a white man’s answer to not paying for their children to go to private schools. Because middle schools take care of seventh, eighth, and ninth grades. I told somebody that. I told some white people that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Why would they—why would they not have, um—why would they need to do that in order to avoid Parochial school?

Barbara Dodson: They—you see, I’m talking about private school.

Oloye Adeyemon: Why? Why would they have to do that? Because—

Barbara Dodson: Because you don’t pay anything to go to public schools. There’s no fee.

Oloye Adeyemon: But why middle school?

Barbara Dodson: Because they’re after the—because, see, middle school is also another answer for junior high school, so they saw what was happening in junior high schools and didn’t want their children to—

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, you’re talking about the—you’re talking about the discipline problems and that.

Barbara Dodson: Discipline and curriculum, and things of that sort.

Oloye Adeyemon: I got you. I got you. It’s a difficult period.

Barbara Dodson: So yeah, difficult period.

Oloye Adeyemon: I see.

Barbara Dodson: So they decided, then we started having middle schools. I said, “Middle schools”.

Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.

Barbara Dodson: And we still—but we still had junior high school where black children went.

Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.

Barbara Dodson: But I-I told—I had a friend who put their children in a middle school.

Oloye Adeyemon: So middle school is different than the junior high school?

Barbara Dodson: Oh yes. They had a little different curriculum, and you had parents support. And you had parents putting money in.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were the grades different?

Barbara Dodson: No. the grades were the same.

Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.

Barbara Dodson: But see, you still had junior high school but you still got middle schools.

Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. What, um—

Barbara Dodson: And they were in the—they were only in a couple of neighborhoods, like Capitol Hill.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. At what point did you, um—you’re-you’re-you’re now the President of the African American Historical and Geological Society. By chance, how many chapters around the country?

Barbara Dodson: Twenty.

Oloye Adeyemon: And also there’s chapters in—outside the country, right?

Barbara Dodson: Not really. Not yet. We’re working on it.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, there was one in the West Indies being put up?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. They were talking about it. They were talking about that.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what year was that founded?

Barbara Dodson: 1977.

Oloye Adeyemon: By your husband?

Barbara Dodson: And some other people.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Dodson: And some other people.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. He was one of the founders?

Barbara Dodson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: And uh, he worked for a long time at the Archives?

Barbara Dodson: National Archives.

Oloye Adeyemon: And he’s considered by many to be the father of African American genealogy.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah. Because of his knowledge he had been recognized.

Oloye Adeyemon: One of my mentors. My-my main mentor.

Barbara Dodson: Yeah, you and 9 million other people. I haven’t finished grieving because you all—everybody says that. You all—so that be—everybody comes up. I don’t care where I go; somebody will come up and say, “Your husband helped me”. How did he help you?

Oloye Adeyemon: Well, I’d like to thank you for this interview.

Barbara Dodson: I don't think you learned too much.

Oloye Adeyemon: I think I learned a lot.

Barbara Dodson: I don't think you did.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I think I did.

Barbara Dodson: You just saying that to be nice.

Oloye Adeyemon: No I’m not. I know. You’re from DC—